Protecting Belkar

[homeosapiens]

Will he die in this particular battle? Seems likely.

But as far as protecting him goes - Durkon can dominate soldiers and use children of the night(3d6 wolves? that's not bad in current situation) to surround him with allied units.

I can see him dieing if he rages and goes for mass murdering T mooks, and when rage is going to end (fast, considering his current con) he ll get killed. Let's hope he will not.

Roy, Durkon doesn't seem particuarly scared - means they will survive a lot. Elan and Haley might not be targeted. Devil will probably protect Belkar as well.

What more could they do for B. not to perish? Could Durkon or V have bear's endurance?

Could V have any spells that save B?

[littlebum2002]

I was wondering if he was going to break out the wolves.

He could also use the "Create zombie" spell from his staff.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

What is really surprising is the big amount of effort from Roy's hand to keep Belkar alive.

[Zerter]

How is that in any way surprising?

[BaronOfHell]

I read someone write that according to D&D mech's vampires shouldn't be in any danger because they remove a fixed amount of damage from each arrow which hits, and this fixed amount is higher than the arrows possible maximum turning the total damage to zero, and also a vamp can't be slowly drained for health, because of fast heal, or something similar.

Therefore, I imagine, if Durkon turned Belkar and maybe Roy into vampires they'd be save from the mooks.

But as mentioned elsewhere, Tarquin isn't even trying, he's going to make it exciting and thrilling, like he just basically said to Elan. Therefore, if Oots tries something creative, Tarquin will probably just use some kind of counter putting the order in an even tougher situation.

Also it seems very appropriate for V to return any moment now, given how one could expect the rise in drama and tension, V would likely be a plus.

[Roland Itiative]

Yeah, it means Roy finally accepted him as part of the team, not just someone he's using until the time of his death comes. Which, in turn, makes it more and more probable that Belkar will kick the proverbial bucket soon, but I think it won't happen yet.

I could easily be wrong, though. Specially since I've been thinking that Belkar was about to die for a while, and now that I don't think he'll die... :smalltongue:


How is that in any way surprising?
Roy, up until now, was clearly wanting Belkar to die. Sure, he's useful some times, but he has a prophecy looming over his head, and he also causes quite a deal of problems to the Order too. Going from that to devising his whole strategy around protecting Belkar, when he could focus on making his way up and leaving Belkar to keep up or die trying, or something, shows a huge change in behaviour.

[BaronOfHell]

Which in turn also ought to mean that whatever way Belkar is offed, resurrection won't be possible after the 1 year period has passed.

[homeosapiens]

You think it's even remotely possible that Roy will order Durkon to vamp Belkar?

I guess with Vamp B. Those mooks will die like... really fast. Also this would fit the last breath prediction. If B. dies in a regular way he gets rezzed.

Hrrm - Vamp B. would stand a top of 4 times bigger mountain of corpses than at AC i suppose.

Sexy, shoeless God of Blood?

Edit:
I assume D. told Roy about staff quick vamp spell.

[Zerter]

Roy, up until now, was clearly wanting Belkar to die. Sure, he's useful some times, but he has a prophecy looming over his head, and he also causes quite a deal of problems to the Order too. Going from that to devising his whole strategy around protecting Belkar, when he could focus on making his way up and leaving Belkar to keep up or die trying, or something, shows a huge change in behaviour.

It shows zero change in his behaviour. Roy has had Belkar's back for a long time. Saying sometimes that he wants Belkar to die, secretly wishing for it to happen, tthese are not the same as wanting Belkar to die at all.

[TubaMortim]

Another thing to think of is that this multi-page/strip part of the story showing Roy trying his best to save his comrade makes for a perfect opportunity for Rich to kill said halfling.

[BaronOfHell]

You think it's even remotely possible that Roy will order Durkon to vamp Belkar?

I don't think Roy would ever consider it an option by himself and only if he truly believed he'd no other way and his hand was forced and Belkar agreed to it, or he thought Belkar would agree to it, he would.

But I honestly don't think this comic will turn vamp. It was more from a mechanics PoV + Durkon's reaction and to note that it probably wouldn't work well anyway.

[Chantelune]

Roy, up until now, was clearly wanting Belkar to die. Sure, he's useful some times, but he has a prophecy looming over his head, and he also causes quite a deal of problems to the Order too. Going from that to devising his whole strategy around protecting Belkar, when he could focus on making his way up and leaving Belkar to keep up or die trying, or something, shows a huge change in behaviour.

Roy is fine with Belkar dying and clearly won't cry when it happens. Doesn't mean he'll just watch him die, especially when he might be of some help in the coming fight.

Since Belkar had his hippie quest, he's been more willing to help. Roy is aware that this is likely a scam, but he said he was going to take advantage to it, until he happens to die.

Given their current situation, if they manage to get Belkar in shape, he could help changing the issue of the battle. Of course he'll protect him, even if he doesn't like him.

[homeosapiens]

That's the situation im thinking about - no other choice/forced hand. If B. gets swarmed and is about to die Roy might think:
a) it's only solution for them all not to die
b) he was supposed to draw his last breath anyway - this might act as a supernatular nudge like with haleys nat. 20 - undead do not breathe
c) i d really like to see vamp Belkar. He doesnt have to change + he'd rock more, and is not dead/apart from team in hell for good.

That would ofc mean 2 vampiers in team - which if kind off unorginal, but i think B. would make a better vamp than D.

Also D. would have a "family".

:)

[DR27]

Protecting Belkar seems very difficult at this time, and the suggestion of turning him into a vampire would solve a lot of problems for those in the crater currently. Hell, the increased wisdom might mean that he could actually cast spells. However, I don't think for one second that Belkar would be on board with this. The experience with Malak/Durkon's death seems to have had quite the effect on Belkar - see his reaction when they first encounter free Durkula.

That's not to say Durkon won't decide to do it on his own, but if Belkar has anything to say about it, he won't "turn undead."

[Chantelune]

There's just a small problem with Durkon turning Belkar : it's daytime. Even if he speed up the process with the staff, Belkar will rise in the sun and might at best get crippled before Durkon can use the staff to protect him from the sun.

If they wait for dusk, then it might be better to just cast restoration on Belkar.

[Taelas]

Roy, up until now, was clearly wanting Belkar to die. Sure, he's useful some times, but he has a prophecy looming over his head, and he also causes quite a deal of problems to the Order too. Going from that to devising his whole strategy around protecting Belkar, when he could focus on making his way up and leaving Belkar to keep up or die trying, or something, shows a huge change in behaviour.

I'm sorry, but what are you talking about?

Roy is desperately trying to stay alive. Should he just let Belkar die, and remove the quite significant advantage of concealment he's creating at the moment? :smallconfused:

He isn't focused on protecting Belkar. He's keeping Belkar alive so the halfling can help keep Roy alive.

[homeosapiens]

Shar - im tottally not agreeing. He was prepared to die as the first during the sandman fight - thus protecting (also)Belkar.

The daylight doesnt seem a problem. Cast - hasten vampirism, then cast protection from daylight. Vampire is destroyed if can't escape next turn. I guess getting protection spell on counts as escape. Also he could turn him in shade of a fallen dinosaur, under some corpses, or in magical darkness.

[DR27]

He isn't focused on protecting Belkar. He's keeping Belkar alive so the halfling can help keep Roy alive.Maybe, it's hard to tell. Asking Belkar's opinion before blowing the gate was a major change of heart. There's definitely some of both things happening here, especially since he's telling Durkon to shield Belkar with dominated soldiers. If he just wanted concealment, he could be telling the dominated soldiers to do it instead of Belkar. If he just wanted Belkar in cover, he could have shoved him inside the dino Han Solo-style.

[Forikroder]

Yeah, it means Roy finally accepted him as part of the team, not just someone he's using until the time of his death comes. Which, in turn, makes it more and more probable that Belkar will kick the proverbial bucket soon, but I think it won't happen yet.

not guranteed, hes not going to waste the vast combat potential of Belkar just becuase he doesnt like him, Belkar could probably mow down 100 mooks at his tip top alone so letting him die now means no concealment and no sexy shoeless god of war

Roys warmed up to Belkar somewhat he no longer thinks of him as someone willing to lie to the party to let another party member die, but hes not going to shed a tear (or diamonds) once Belkar does die

[gorocz]

I was wondering if he was going to break out the wolves.

He could also use the "Create zombie" spell from his staff.

Well, using the staff to create a zombie from a fallen soldier or dominate a living one... The latter option is unlimited (as opposed to charges on the staff) and rids you of 2 soldiers (the dominated and the one he fights) instead of just one (which would fight the zombie)...

[Porthos]

Roy, up until now, was clearly wanting Belkar to die. Sure, he's useful some times, but he has a prophecy looming over his head, and he also causes quite a deal of problems to the Order too. Going from that to devising his whole strategy around protecting Belkar, when he could focus on making his way up and leaving Belkar to keep up or die trying, or something, shows a huge change in behaviour.

This. Roy is doing much more than he ever did to protect him. He is, dare I say it, acting as a leader to his band.

One thing the pyramid adventures did to Roy was really make him face up on how to be a Leader of People. In the space of a very short time after Durkon's death and vamping he went from Anger to Captain Wallowpants to STOP TALKING to Hey, I Should Stop Being a Jerk. With the help of his teammates, of course.

The Roy of Comic #666 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) would not be fighting this hard to keep the little ankle biter alive. Girard's Pyramid changed Roy. Subtly, but for the better.

That he is still using Belkar to tactical advantage in this fight simply is him using his Intelligence in combat. :smallwink:

[dancrilis]

Roy (if he has been paying attention) would know that Belkar was the most useful member of the order on this trip.

For minor examples he found the pyramid, distracted the hell hound (saving them from what ever other traps were available), informed them about Durkon, came up with the coffin idea, off the top of my head.

But the major one is he snapped Roy out of his self pitying retreat.

And he did all of that without causing any grief he might have done in Azure City or before.

Roy also might know the 'con' that Belkar is pulling, namely 'I will behave, and you will leave me alone' - Belkar admitted that to him (though whether Roy got that in his anger is unknown).

Ultimately as Roy mentioned:

:roy: I learned in Fighter College that a good commander doesn't abandon one of his people in the face of the enemy. And Belkar IS one of my people.
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)

That is more true now than it was at the time, and as long as it is true Roy will defend Belkar ... baring a dramatic change in Roy's character.

[Porthos]

This. Roy is doing much more than he ever did to protect him. He is, dare I say it, acting as a leader to his band.

One thing the pyramid adventures did to Roy was really make him face up on how to be a Leader of People. In the space of a very short time after Durkon's death and vamping he went from Anger to Captain Wallowpants to STOP TALKING to Hey, I Should Stop Being a Jerk. With the help of his teammates, of course.

The Roy of Comic #666 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) would not be fighting this hard to keep the little ankle biter alive. Girard's Pyramid changed Roy. Subtly, but for the better.

That he is still using Belkar to tactical advantage in this fight simply is him using his Intelligence in combat. :smallwink:

As a point to backup this idea, remember what happened in the Dreamscape? Belkar dies within one or two rounds. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0886.html) And Roy couldn't care less.

But here? He's doing everything he can to keep Belkar alive AND still use him in combat.

That is a pretty darn good compare and contrast if you ask me.

[Silverionmox]

Roy motivates it even to Belkar that it's more "effective" to keep him alive.

A more significant change is Belkar's more respectful attitude vs. Roy, in particular after narrowly escaping death. He's never been that compliant.

[Onyavar]

Edit:
I assume D. told Roy about staff quick vamp spell.

How this?

Durkon knows exactly ONE application for the staff yet (Protection from Sunlight), and this also only theretically, because it was Malacks last words to him.

Durkon even can hardly know all his abilitites yet, since he didn't even know the more obscure weakness of the vampiric template in the fight with Malack. He learned thing about the gaze from Malack, as well as two object lessons about the vulnerability to sunlight.

I guess that we'll see all the traits of the vampire template later in the story, without any houserules, but Durkon IS new to all of this.

[3Power]

I don't think belkar's gonna kick the bucket until kraagor's gate. The whole reason the order of the scribble fell apart at the end was differences of opinions regarding the death of a teammate. I don't know how kraagor's death will relate to belkar's, but I'm sure it will somehow.

[Onyavar]

Also, Belkar has been a really good teamplayer lately:

He got rid of the hellhound (still in the fake mode)

But then warned the Order about Durkon (which was confirmed AFTER the dream sequence, Roy even acknowledged the intel later during the Gate voting), he warned the Order about Nale approaching, and he had the idea with the Indiana Jones escape. He also fought against the Si Elemental, although he ducked first. In short, Belkar saved the Orders butt (in his own interest), and in the still ongoing battle, Belkar won't switch sides for lulz.

Yes, on Roys plan from the boat, he built the anti-Xykon strategy around Belkar as cannon-fodder, but even then he wasn't going to sacrifice the Belkster without gaining a considerable advantage.
His like of thinking was then: "Bonus points if Belkar dies in the last battle, so that we don't have to care about this plague after the main quest is finished."
Maybe Roy has reconsidered Belkars value, but even if not; this isn't the main quest and certainly not the final battle. Keeping the weakest link in his current team alive so that it may get stronger later again, is only the most sensible strategy. And neither Durkon nor Roy himself need the protection of low level mooks, swarming around them and hindering their movement. Putting them around Belkars position is sound, as long as the strategy is "defend our ground".

If they try to move out or to the Gate, Roy will deploy his assets otherwise.

And, sure, I agree, Belkar won't get a raise if he drops, whenever that will be the case.

[Zevox]

Will he die in this particular battle? Seems likely.
I'm going to have to disagree. We've already had two major character deaths in this story arc, one extremely recent even by update-time standards. Pile so many on at once and they'll start to lose effectiveness - especially when two of them were long-foreshadowed and expected by attentive readers.

No, I'm going guess that the repeated reminders of Belkar's death prophecy earlier in the book were a red herring, to make us think he'd probably die in this book, when in fact the notable deaths of this one are Durkon and Nale instead. We'll see Belkar's end, but not until later.

[Temotei]

What is really surprising is the big amount of effort from Roy's hand to keep Belkar alive.

It makes me happy and proud. :smallredface:

[Amphiox]

What is really surprising is the big amount of effort from Roy's hand to keep Belkar alive.

Indeed. And I am wondering if this effort will not go unnoticed by Belkar himself. The old Belkar would not have noticed or cared. But this Belkar? Maybe. And that will be yet another step forward in his character development.


Going from that to devising his whole strategy around protecting Belkar, when he could focus on making his way up and leaving Belkar to keep up or die trying, or something, shows a huge change in behaviour.

And Roy even had Belkar's own tacit permission. Belkar asked him straight out, in so many words, "let me go stab things". He could have easily shrugged and said "sure, go ahead" and he could go to the Deva on his next interview and tell her that it was simply Belkar's choice.

But Roy said no. No, I am not giving you what you want, what you're asking for, because it will result in your death.

Contrast this behavior with Daddy Tarquin's.

[Forikroder]

Indeed. And I am wondering if this effort will not go unnoticed by Belkar himself. The old Belkar would not have noticed or cared. But this Belkar? Maybe. And that will be yet another step forward in his character development.



And Roy even had Belkar's own tacit permission. Belkar asked him straight out, in so many words, "let me go stab things". He could have easily shrugged and said "sure, go ahead" and he could go to the Deva on his next interview and tell her that it was simply Belkar's choice.

But Roy said no. No, I am not giving you what you want, what you're asking for, because it will result in your death.

Contrast this behavior with Daddy Tarquin's.

i dont get it, Roy has never been reckless with Belkar its not like hes ever set him on one man missions into the enemy territory or done anything that would put Belkar in unnesecary danger

why do people go "oh look Roy is not actively trying to kill Belkar" as "Roy has finally fallen in love with Belkar and plans to do everything in his power to save his new love from the Oracles prophecy"

just because Roy is milking out as much use out of Belkar as possible by using him to give them concealment doesnt mean that he actually cares that much about him all of a sudden

[Giggling Ghast]

Besides telling Belkar to stay out of the fight, Roy has instructed Durkon to have his dominated mooks guard him. Is the sand being kicked up by Belkar really such an advantage that it wouldn't be more valuable to have said mooks fighting beside Roy instead of defending Belkar?

I agree with Porthos, this does represent character development for Roy. Not just the Roy of #666, but also the Roy of Girard's illusionary dream-world who couldn't be bothered to resurrect Belkar despite the fact that Durkon was alive and well. You could even see it back in Girard's pyramid, when he asked Belkar for his input on destroying the Gate.

Roy's had a team-mate die on him. He knows how that feels now.

[Amphiox]

i dont get it, Roy has never been reckless with Belkar its not like hes ever set him on one man missions into the enemy territory or done anything that would put Belkar in unnesecary danger

why do people go "oh look Roy is not actively trying to kill Belkar" as "Roy has finally fallen in love with Belkar and plans to do everything in his power to save his new love from the Oracles prophecy"

just because Roy is milking out as much use out of Belkar as possible by using him to give them concealment doesnt mean that he actually cares that much about him all of a sudden

There are many options available to Roy on how he could utilize Belkar in this battle, many with roughly equivalent efficacy. Roy has chosen, out of all these options, to choose the one that just happens to also have the greatest chance of keeping Belkar alive.

This is not a coincidence. Whether Roy has consciously made this choice or whether it is in fact instinctive of him is unclear. But either way it tells us something about his character.

Or affirms things we already knew or suspected about his character.

[BlackGrail]

There are many options available to Roy on how he could utilize Belkar in this battle, many with roughly equivalent efficacy. Roy has chosen, out of all these options, to choose the one that just happens to also have the greatest chance of keeping Belkar alive.

This is not a coincidence. Whether Roy has consciously made this choice or whether it is in fact instinctive of him is unclear. But either way it tells us something about his character.

Or affirms things we already knew or suspected about his character.

Hardly. Belkar really couldn't hold more than few rounds before expiring, and what then? Roy loses 33% (or 20% if you count in Elan and Haley) of his party, plus the one who is most useful in melee (after him). It's a life and death situation, even a CE character would try to keep everyone alive in such circumstances.

It's simply the smartest thing to do. As Roy says it himself: try to hold until dusk with everyone alive, and then see what next.

[Ubab]

Roy is doing what GOOD people do - don't let other people, and employees, to die for nothing.

Roy doesn't want Belkar to die UNDER HIS responsability, and he can't dispense any help at this moment, even if that help is just kick sand up high to avoid the arrows.

Roy feels himself as responsible over all party members, and Belkar is becoming a more reliable partner, the best melee combatant outside Roy. Roy must want Belkar dead soon, but will not permit this to occur. Belkar's death occurs countering attitudes Roy.

---
English isn't my mother-language. Don't be affraid to point me out (by PM) any mistakes I made.

[Chantelune]

It's not even a matter of alignement. As pointed out, Belkar is a damn good melee fighter and proved able to stand against an army of mooks by himself during the Azure City conquest. Letting one third of the current party (as Haley and Elan are on the opposite side of the army) get killed just because you don't like him when there's a chance you might get him back in shape so he can do what he's good at, it's not only evil, it's downright stupid. As long as Belkar breathe, he'll do whatever it takes to keep it that way.

And there is one thing we know, it's that Roy isn't stupid.

[Forikroder]

There are many options available to Roy on how he could utilize Belkar in this battle, many with roughly equivalent efficacy. Roy has chosen, out of all these options, to choose the one that just happens to also have the greatest chance of keeping Belkar alive.

This is not a coincidence. Whether Roy has consciously made this choice or whether it is in fact instinctive of him is unclear. But either way it tells us something about his character.

Or affirms things we already knew or suspected about his character.

no there are two ways he can use Belkar as support (which he chose) or as a combatant (which makes belkar die afer a couple rounds and then there sitting ducks for the archers)

Belkar is (despite his build) a sexy shoeless god of war if it wasnt for his Con damage between him, Roy and Durkon they could easily carve a path through this army

letting Belkar die now wastes the massive fighting asset he is its like going into a store buying a gumball with a 100 dollar bill and forgetting to get your change

using Belkar in a way that endangers him (and in his current state he cannot survive any danger) is just dumb

[Kevka Palazzo]

I want to know why Roy's motivations regarding Belkar are being discussed as binary (to wit: he's come to appreciate Belkar as Part of the Team, or he's only using Belkar as an effective tool).

Remember that Roy is a competent tactical leader as well as being Good, and loyal to his teammates. He's directing Belkar to keep himself alive, and dedicating resources to keeping Belkar alive, both because it's tactically sound and he can't in good conscience just let Belkar die.

Now this doesn't necessarily mean he likes Belkar, but it doesn't mean that he only sees Belkar as a tool. I can't speak for Roy's motivations since I'm not The Giant, but there's nothing wrong with assuming the best of Roy. Especially Roy.

[Amphiox]

Those who insist that Roy had "no other options" with respect to how he could have utilized Belkar tactically in this battle are no different from those who insisted that Tarquin had "no" other options with respect to what he did with Nale.

It betrays a serious lack of imagination.

There are always other options.

Even the binary choice of support vs combat includes a wide array of options on each side.

But Roy has chosen a strategy SPECIFICALLY focused on keeping Belkar alive. Almost every single order he gave was SPECIFICALLY focused on protecting Belkar. It was "Cover Belkar", "Make a screen around Belkar", "No Belkar, you will not attack and expose yourself".

Every single order he has given has had the primary objective of keeping Belkar alive first and then seeking advantage in the fight itself second, as opposed to winning the fight first and protecting Belkar second.

Only a few strips ago Roy was all "Belkar's going to die soon anyways, let's just play out the string."

[Forikroder]

Those who insist that Roy had "no other options" with respect to how he could have utilized Belkar tactically in this battle are no different from those who insisted that Tarquin had "no" other options with respect to what he did with Nale.

It betrays a serious lack of imagination.

There are always other options.

Even the binary choice of support vs combat includes a wide array of options on each side.

But Roy has chosen a strategy SPECIFICALLY focused on keeping Belkar alive. Almost every single order he gave was SPECIFICALLY focused on protecting Belkar. It was "Cover Belkar", "Make a screen around Belkar", "No Belkar, you will not attack and expose yourself".

Every single order he has given has had the primary objective of keeping Belkar alive first and then seeking advantage in the fight itself second, as opposed to winning the fight first and protecting Belkar second.

Only a few strips ago Roy was all "Belkar's going to die soon anyways, let's just play out the string."

okay then list some of them

name a single other strategy Roy could use that would have Belkar be a useful asset in the fight

[theNater]

Besides telling Belkar to stay out of the fight, Roy has instructed Durkon to have his dominated mooks guard him. Is the sand being kicked up by Belkar really such an advantage that it wouldn't be more valuable to have said mooks fighting beside Roy instead of defending Belkar?
Yes. Assuming it's run-of-the-mill concealment, it's stopping 20% of incoming attacks. Meanwhile, Roy is pretty soundly able to slaughter as many enemy soldiers as he can reach; putting dominated mooks next to him would give him fewer targets(and also run the risk that he accidentally skewers a friendly).

The Roy of Comic #666 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) would not be fighting this hard to keep the little ankle biter alive.

I agree with Porthos, this does represent character development for Roy. Not just the Roy of #666, but also the Roy of Girard's illusionary dream-world who couldn't be bothered to resurrect Belkar despite the fact that Durkon was alive and well.
How does this Roy compare to the Roy of Comic #285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html), who is absolutely willing to fight his hardest to protect Belkar?

I'm pretty sure that the Roy of #666 is talking about a hypothetical situation, in which Belkar is completely out of control. Given that Belkar has been staying as much under control as he ever has, he's still entitled to full protection, just as he was in #285.

[Forikroder]

Yes. Assuming it's run-of-the-mill concealment, it's stopping 20% of incoming attacks. Meanwhile, Roy is pretty soundly able to slaughter as many enemy soldiers as he can reach; putting dominated mooks next to him would give him fewer targets(and also run the risk that he accidentally skewers a friendly).


How does this Roy compare to the Roy of Comic #285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html), who is absolutely willing to fight his hardest to protect Belkar?

I'm pretty sure that the Roy of #666 is talking about a hypothetical situation, in which Belkar is completely out of control. Given that Belkar has been staying as much under control as he ever has, he's still entitled to full protection, just as he was in #285.

exactly as long as Belkar remains an asset Roy will continue to keep him alive

[Kevka Palazzo]

exactly as long as Belkar remains an asset Roy will continue to keep him alive

I think it's more like as long as Belkar remains part of Roy's team Roy will continue to keep him alive.

The distinction is that Roy sees Belkar as more than just a barely-controlled murderling, but recognizes his effectiveness as such at the same time.

Roy can be both a good person who cares about his teammates and a cool, tactical genius. At the same time even.

[Scow2]

I agree with Porthos, this does represent character development for Roy. Not just the Roy of #666, but also the Roy of Girard's illusionary dream-world who couldn't be bothered to resurrect Belkar despite the fact that Durkon was alive and well.
Just because Belkar is worth protecting doesn't mean he's worth bringing back if he does snuff it. Roy's not dumb or malicious, but, in the dreamworld, there wasn't much he could have done to protect Belkar from a Meteor Swarm, especially if said protection put his actual mission at risk (Namely, defeating Xykon). However, Belkar IS too valuable to throw away in a fight with a B-list second-stringer villain.

[Amphiox]

Another reason people have pointed out Roy's apparent care for Belkar in this strip is the narrative focus the Giant has put on it.

It is certainly arguable that this does not represent a change in Roy's relationship with Belkar so much as simply a change in Roy's spoken presentation of his relationship with Belkar. Just as the deva had said of Roy, he snarks more than the lawful good authorities fully approve of, but in the end he always tries to do the right thing. So Roy may TALK flippantly about "waiting out the clock" on Belkar in moments of low tension, but when push comes to shove, Belkar is a teammate and Roy will protect his teammates with all the tools at his disposal, be it strength, stamina, charisma or intellect.

(In fact I consider this the most likely interpretation.)

But the Giant made a point of hilighting Roy's protection of Belkar in this strip when he did not have to. For example, the strip could have been presented with Roy shouting "Belkar, take cover!" followed by him slicing the dinosaur. There didn't have to be the additional panels of Belkar asking "where" and THEN Roy slicing the dinosaur, which puts direct narrative attention to Roy doing that for Belkar. Similarly, the dialogue could have simply been Roy telling Durkon to "form a perimeter" with his dominated soldiers. There did not need to be the additional statement "around Belkar". And when Belkar requested to be let loose to fight, Roy could have simply been shown to say "Stay there, you are more useful making concealment right now." It was not necessary to add the part about Belkar being skewered.

The protection of Belkar could have been simply implied. But instead it was made explicit.

I do not think that was accidental on the Giant's part. Thus the question of the why, the narrative purpose of it. Does it indicate a change in Roy, or does it simply reinforce what we already know about Roy. If the latter, then why the explicitness. So I posit the hypothesis that it was done so that later Belkar can be shown taking note of it and reacting to it, in the sense that even if this is something that was always consistent with Roy's character, it is not something that Belkar had noticed before, and now he will, and that realization will contribute to Belkar's continuing character growth.

[Amphiox]

And the other aspect here is the contrast with Tarquin. Tarquin, as a leader of a team, has been shown to view all around him as tools. Assets to be protected or expended or abandoned as the situation demands. Even his so-called oldest friend. Even his son.

And here we have Roy, as leader of his team. How does he treat his teammates? Particularly the one we know he doesn't actually like much. Are his teammates assets to be exploited, tools to be used? Or do they mean more to Roy? Is Belkar an object to Roy, a weapon to be deployed, or is Belkar a person, with inherent worth independent of his situational usefulness?

Do Roy's actions in this strip show him to be like Tarquin, or different?

[Forikroder]

Another reason people have pointed out Roy's apparent care for Belkar in this strip is the narrative focus the Giant has put on it.

It is certainly arguable that this does not represent a change in Roy's relationship with Belkar so much as simply a change in Roy's spoken presentation of his relationship with Belkar. Just as the deva had said of Roy, he snarks more than the lawful good authorities fully approve of, but in the end he always tries to do the right thing. So Roy may TALK flippantly about "waiting out the clock" on Belkar in moments of low tension, but when push comes to shove, Belkar is a teammate and Roy will protect his teammates with all the tools at his disposal, be it strength, stamina, charisma or intellect.

(In fact I consider this the most likely interpretation.)

But the Giant made a point of hilighting Roy's protection of Belkar in this strip when he did not have to. For example, the strip could have been presented with Roy shouting "Belkar, take cover!" followed by him slicing the dinosaur. There didn't have to be the additional panels of Belkar asking "where" and THEN Roy slicing the dinosaur, which puts direct narrative attention to Roy doing that for Belkar. Similarly, the dialogue could have simply been Roy telling Durkon to "form a perimeter" with his dominated soldiers. There did not need to be the additional statement "around Belkar". And when Belkar requested to be let loose to fight, Roy could have simply been shown to say "Stay there, you are more useful making concealment right now." It was not necessary to add the part about Belkar being skewered.

The protection of Belkar could have been simply implied. But instead it was made explicit.

I do not think that was accidental on the Giant's part. Thus the question of the why, the narrative purpose of it. Does it indicate a change in Roy, or does it simply reinforce what we already know about Roy. If the latter, then why the explicitness. So I posit the hypothesis that it was done so that later Belkar can be shown taking note of it and reacting to it, in the sense that even if this is something that was always consistent with Roy's character, it is not something that Belkar had noticed before, and now he will, and that realization will contribute to Belkar's continuing character growth.

your completely ignoring that Belkar is performing a very important function in the fight (giving Roy concealment) and keeping him safe to continue to perform that function is important so hes giving orders to that effect

trying to prevent a weakened party member from dieing doesnt mean much when that party member is crucial in order for them to survive


And the other aspect here is the contrast with Tarquin. Tarquin, as a leader of a team, has been shown to view all around him as tools. Assets to be protected or expended or abandoned as the situation demands. Even his so-called oldest friend. Even his son.

i remember a time when people couldnt say such crazy things without offering some sort of evidence

[Reddish Mage]

I was wondering if he was going to break out the wolves.

He could also use the "Create zombie" spell from his staff.

The wolves are probably not narratively appropriate (people whose main concern isn't D&D mechanics may wonder where the wolves came from and how they got there in 2d6 rounds) nor artistically appropriate. Creating undead probably takes too long and wastes resources next to dominate (which is unlimited).

[Kevka Palazzo]

i remember a time when people couldnt say such crazy things without offering some sort of evidence

At this point I honestly believe you're trolling us.

[Forikroder]

At this point I honestly believe you're trolling us.

hes never showed any indication of treating his teammates as tools, he showed real emotion when he learned Malack was dead and never done anything that shows he thinks of them as disposable

[oonker]

Besides telling Belkar to stay out of the fight, Roy has instructed Durkon to have his dominated mooks guard him. Is the sand being kicked up by Belkar really such an advantage that it wouldn't be more valuable to have said mooks fighting beside Roy instead of defending Belkar?

I agree with Porthos, this does represent character development for Roy. Not just the Roy of #666, but also the Roy of Girard's illusionary dream-world who couldn't be bothered to resurrect Belkar despite the fact that Durkon was alive and well. You could even see it back in Girard's pyramid, when he asked Belkar for his input on destroying the Gate.

Roy's had a team-mate die on him. He knows how that feels now.

Not only did he not ressurrect Belkar in dreamworld, you can see in the picture that he frankly doesn't care. In the panel, while we see Elan mourning, we see Roy waving goodbye (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html), like "hey, see if I care".

[Porthos]

How does this Roy compare to the Roy of Comic #285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html), who is absolutely willing to fight his hardest to protect Belkar?

The Belkar of that strip hadn't recently killed the Oracle of the Sunken Valley for one. :smallsmile:

And Amphiox brings up a good point. The narrative is spending a lot of time establishing Belkar staying alive. There are two reasons I can think of for doing so:

A) To potentially silence the critics who would say that there was no way Belkar could last four rounds in that fight

B) Showing that instead of being callous to Belkar's plight, which was the default presumption amongst many readers for nearly 250 strips, Roy is going balls to the walls to protect him.

or

C) A little bit of both. :smallwink:

After all, there could have been just one or two panels establishing the Protect Belkar scenario. The comic spent 8 panels on it.

Might be nothing, might be something. I'll choose to believe 'something' because it makes Roy look good. In both senses of the word. :smallsmile:

[Scow2]

Not only did he not ressurrect Belkar in dreamworld, you can see in the picture that he frankly doesn't care. In the panel, while we see Elan mourning, we see Roy waving goodbye (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html), like "hey, see if I care".If Belkar were to die, I don't see Roy as the type to mourn him anyway.


The Belkar of that strip hadn't recently killed the Oracle of the Sunken Valley for one. :smallsmile:Not the ******* of the Sunken Valley, no - but he's killed FAR more, and far more innocent people than the Oracle before that strip... In fact, he's no better than Nale and Thog, complete with murdering innoncent people to paint a path for Miko. I kinda wished in that panel that Miko HADN'T been stopped 'in time', and struck the bastard down. Sure, he thought she would have fallen - but given his behavior, falling for killing Belkar in that situation would have been "Jackass DM".

[Amphiox]

your completely ignoring that Belkar is performing a very important function in the fight (giving Roy concealment) and keeping him safe to continue to perform that function is important so hes giving orders to that effect

trying to prevent a weakened party member from dieing doesnt mean much when that party member is crucial in order for them to survive


No I am not. In fact the entirety of the above COMPLETELY MISSES the main point of my post, which is about the narrative explicitness of Belkar's protection.

The fact that Belkar is performing an important function is utterly irrelevant to the degree to which the narrative is drawing attention to how Roy is preserving Belkar to perform that function. Belkar could have been performing the same function, but with the protection only implied rather than so explicitly shown and so deliberately drawn attention to.

THAT was the point of my comment, which you have missed entirely.

[Porthos]

If Belkar were to die, I don't see Roy as the type to mourn him anyway.

Not the ******* of the Sunken Valley, no - but he's killed FAR more, and far more innocent people than the Oracle before that strip... In fact, he's no better than Nale and Thog, complete with murdering innoncent people to paint a path for Miko. I kinda wished in that panel that Miko HADN'T been stopped 'in time', and struck the bastard down. Sure, he thought she would have fallen - but given his behavior, falling for killing Belkar in that situation would have been "Jackass DM".

I was using that as a shorthand comment for saying that as bad as Belkar had been, he was much worse and more out of control from 500-660.

To put it another way, Roy had reached his limit with Belkar by the time 666 rolled around and truly didn't care whether he lived or died. This reaches its apex when, as Roy was nearing what might be called a psychological breakdown, threatened to cut Belkar down where he stood (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0880.html).

That wasn't that long ago, you know.

But now? Furtherest thing from his mind.

Some might not consider it noteworthy, but I do.

[Amphiox]

i remember a time when people couldnt say such crazy things without offering some sort of evidence

You want evidence?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html

I assumed the events of the last few strips, and the extensive discussion going on in multiple threads on this forum on this very topic was sufficient that no one would have an attention span so short as to actually require the explicit references to the links in question.

I guess I was wrong about that in your case.

[Taelas]

And the other aspect here is the contrast with Tarquin. Tarquin, as a leader of a team, has been shown to view all around him as tools. Assets to be protected or expended or abandoned as the situation demands. Even his so-called oldest friend. Even his son.

Quite frankly, no. While Tarquin is definitely a magnificent bastard of heretofore unknown proportions, he was also willing to go to quite some lengths to protect his son -- right up 'till Nale threw that back in his face. He came out to the desert purely to come up with a solution to the dilemma between Malack and Nale. (Which, by the way, is the exact opposite of what many people on the forums thought Tarquin was doing when he left to get the army--they believed he was leaving them alone to let them 'sort out their issues' on their own.)

He also clearly cared for Malack. He was willing to let Nale get away with it because he was his son, but when Nale rejected his protection, he immediately killed him for the murder of his best friend.

Tarquin did not see Malack as simply a tool. They were friends. Compare his reaction to Malack berating him in front of his son to Gannji doing the same. If he only saw Malack as a "tool", surely he would have wanted to punish Malack for the audacity -- just as he punished Gannji?

Another point in this favor is that the Giant has always been partial to Even Evil Have Loved Ones (Redcloak being the preeminent example in OOTS).

The fact that Tarquin treats his underlings as tools, and that he manipulates his children and their friends for his own ends, does not mean that he cannot also have friends that he does care about. I also entirely believe that Tarquin loves Elan, and that this parental affection in fact drives his most recent actions.

[Paseo H]

I like to think that Roy, having just witnessed what Tarquin did, saw that he was ready to sink almost as low as Tarquin back at the pyramid and is now making a point of protecting Belkar so as to draw a solid line in the sand between them.

After all, Roy's the type to do crappy things and then think better of it soon after.

[Giggling Ghast]

How does this Roy compare to the Roy of Comic #285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html), who is absolutely willing to fight his hardest to protect Belkar?

Against Miko Miyazaki. I don't think Roy's dislike of the woman can be ignored as a factor in that decision.

[Chantelune]

Well, there was Miko, sure, but not just that. Roy was clearly talking about responsibility over his party members. Would say it was a bit of many things, but I doubt there was much affection for Belkar, though he gave him credit for sticking with them when he could have profit more by betraying them.

Good thing Belkar was always too slow to figure those fast enough. :smallbiggrin:

[Rogar Demonblud]

If Belkar were to die, I don't see Roy as the type to mourn him anyway.

Not the ******* of the Sunken Valley, no - but he's killed FAR more, and far more innocent people than the Oracle before that strip... In fact, he's no better than Nale and Thog, complete with murdering innoncent people to paint a path for Miko. I kinda wished in that panel that Miko HADN'T been stopped 'in time', and struck the bastard down. Sure, he thought she would have fallen - but given his behavior, falling for killing Belkar in that situation would have been "Jackass DM".

Killing a defenseless or helpless person is murder, no matter how much you may dislike the victim. Thus, Miko or any other paladin would rightfully fall, because they chose to commit murder.

It isn't about the victim, it's about the perpetrator.

Also, I wish I could remember where your avatar is from, because it's driving me nuts.

[Amphiox]

Quite frankly, no. While Tarquin is definitely a magnificent bastard of heretofore unknown proportions, he was also willing to go to quite some lengths to protect his son -- right up 'till Nale threw that back in his face. He came out to the desert purely to come up with a solution to the dilemma between Malack and Nale. (Which, by the way, is the exact opposite of what many people on the forums thought Tarquin was doing when he left to get the army--they believed he was leaving them alone to let them 'sort out their issues' on their own.)

He also clearly cared for Malack. He was willing to let Nale get away with it because he was his son, but when Nale rejected his protection, he immediately killed him for the murder of his best friend.

Tarquin did not see Malack as simply a tool. They were friends. Compare his reaction to Malack berating him in front of his son to Gannji doing the same. If he only saw Malack as a "tool", surely he would have wanted to punish Malack for the audacity -- just as he punished Gannji?

Another point in this favor is that the Giant has always been partial to Even Evil Have Loved Ones (Redcloak being the preeminent example in OOTS).

The fact that Tarquin treats his underlings as tools, and that he manipulates his children and their friends for his own ends, does not mean that he cannot also have friends that he does care about. I also entirely believe that Tarquin loves Elan, and that this parental affection in fact drives his most recent actions.

You can care for someone as a friend, or even as a son, and STILL consider him a tool to be used.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

And we have definitive canon proof with Tarquin that when push comes to shove, when the chips are on the floor, when the back is to the wall, it is tool first, son second, friend third.

With Roy it is the other way around. At least most of the time.

[Scow2]

Killing a defenseless or helpless person is murder, no matter how much you may dislike the victim. Thus, Miko or any other paladin would rightfully fall, because they chose to commit murder.

It isn't about the victim, it's about the perpetrator.

Also, I wish I could remember where your avatar is from, because it's driving me nuts.It's only "Murder" by the legal term. And, no, it's not murder to kill someone who is defenseless or helpless against you, when they themselves have grievously harmed and killed those who were helpless against them. Otherwise, bullies of all stripes would be beyond reproach, because they don't threaten anything that can threaten them.

And my avatar? I made it myself.

[Amphiox]

Tarquin went to great lengths on Nale's behalf, it is true.

But where did that length finally run out of length?

The very moment when Nale made it clear that he would not be a tool.

So long as it was, or could potentially be, tool AND son, Tarquin was ok with indulging the son part of the deal. The moment, the very moment, it became clear that it could not be both, that it had to be one or the other, when he had to definitively and finally CHOOSE between son OR tool, tool OR son, he chose tool.

[Taelas]

You can care for someone as a friend, or even as a son, and STILL consider him a tool to be used.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

And we have definitive canon proof with Tarquin that when push comes to shove, when the chips are on the floor, when the back is to the wall, it is tool first, son second, friend third.

Yes. They are mutually exclusive. When you see someone as a friend, you do not see them as tools. Period. Tools can be discarded and replaced. Friends cannot. A friend can be considered useful without being considered a tool.

As for your 'tool first' theory, that seems to be pure fiction. Not once, to my knowledge, has Tarquin made that distinction. At best, you can argue he puts family over friends, as with Malack and Nale. Neither of whom he considered tools. Only when Nale demanded that he treat him as 'his own man' and that he rescind his protection of him did Tarquin discard his familial obligation to him, at which point he was nothing but a tool, and a broken, useless tool at that.

[oonker]

Tarquin went to great lengths on Nale's behalf, it is true.

But where did that length finally run out of length?

The very moment when Nale made it clear that he would not be a tool.

So long as it was, or could potentially be, tool AND son, Tarquin was ok with indulging the son part of the deal. The moment, the very moment, it became clear that it could not be both, that it had to be one or the other, when he had to definitively and finally CHOOSE between son OR tool, tool OR son, he chose tool.

I believe you're adressing this situation with an inapropriate term.

"Tool" is merely something used as a means to achieve an end in a quicker, more effective way, or being the only way to achieve said end.

Asset (the very term Tarquin uses to describe Malack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html)) is more of a combination of useful abilities that could speed up the way to achieve an end.

A tool has no other purpose than what is intended of it (although this is arguable, it still holds true in a "general" sense), while an asset may be used in a variety of ways. As an example, Malack is an asset due to his clerical powers, the vampiric powers, his wisdom, his counsels, his companionship, and so on, including "his friendship". A tool, on the other hand, is limited, and therefore can't be "both" sentimental and practical. A friend can be an asset, not a tool.


A friend can be considered useful without being considered a tool.

This.

As I see, Tarquin's chain of thought were:
- I lost a valuable asset & friend (Malack).
- I can still make my son (Nale) more "assetable".
- My son refuses to be an asset.
- My son refuses to be my son.
- My son holds no sentimental value.
- My son holds no practical value.
- My son deserves to die for killing my friend.
- I only truly lost one asset & friend (Malack).

[oonker]

If Belkar were to die, I don't see Roy as the type to mourn him anyway.

But there's a difference between the "hey, see if I care attitude" and the "protect Belkar!" one, shown in the #917. Remember that this is a narrative tale, and choosing to address 4 panels directly towards the safety of Belkar in the same strip ("take cover", "perimeter around Belkar", "keep hidden" and "restore Belkar") must have a meaning. Note how he did not explicitly asked for any other spell other than "restoration".

It's based on this assumption that I defend that Roy's attitude regarding Belkar has changed for the better, and that his tactical decision is based both on the "assetability" of Belkar, and the respect for his role in the Order (from "I'll kill you, liar!" to "you get a vote", "follow Belkar's idea to stay alive").

[Amphiox]

I believe you're adressing this situation with an inapropriate term.

"Tool" is merely something used as a means to achieve an end in a quicker, more effective way, or being the only way to achieve said end.

Asset (the very term Tarquin uses to describe Malack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html)) is more of a combination of useful abilities that could speed up the way to achieve an end.

A tool has no other purpose than what is intended of it (although this is arguable, it still holds true in a "general" sense), while an asset may be used in a variety of ways. As an example, Malack is an asset due to his clerical powers, the vampiric powers, his wisdom, his counsels, his companionship, and so on, including "his friendship". A tool, on the other hand, is limited, and therefore can't be "both" sentimental and practical. A friend can be an asset, not a tool.



This.

As I see, Tarquin's chain of thought were:
- I lost a valuable asset & friend (Malack).
- I can still make my son (Nale) more "assetable".
- My son refuses to be an asset.
- My son refuses to be my son.
- My son holds no sentimental value.
- My son holds no practical value.
- My son deserves to die for killing my friend.
- I only truly lost one asset & friend (Malack).

I used the term "asset" in my original post. In my second post I decided to vary terms a little and used a synonym.

[Amphiox]

Yes. They are mutually exclusive. When you see someone as a friend, you do not see them as tools. Period. Tools can be discarded and replaced. Friends cannot. A friend can be considered useful without being considered a tool.

As for your 'tool first' theory, that seems to be pure fiction. Not once, to my knowledge, has Tarquin made that distinction. At best, you can argue he puts family over friends, as with Malack and Nale. Neither of whom he considered tools. Only when Nale demanded that he treat him as 'his own man' and that he rescind his protection of him did Tarquin discard his familial obligation to him, at which point he was nothing but a tool, and a broken, useless tool at that.

No they are absolutely not mutually exclusive. Human relationships are far more complex than the kind of absolutist polarities you describe. Those exist only in bad fiction.

Tarquin flat out called Malack an asset. He flat out SAID "our friendship aside, he was an important asset". What more PROOF do you want that Tarquin saw Malack as BOTH a friend and an asset AT THE SAME TIME?

Sheesh.

[Forikroder]

No I am not. In fact the entirety of the above COMPLETELY MISSES the main point of my post, which is about the narrative explicitness of Belkar's protection.

part of being a leader is coming up with a battle plan and communicating said plan to your team mates, as much as im sure Roy trusts Belkar and Durkon to make sound decisions Roys the only one with a good clear view of the bigger picture of how this battle should go so hes clearly explaining what he needs his party members to do

the trickiest part of that is ensuring they maintain concealment so hes making sure Durkon is aware of how he wants him to use his dominated mooks in order to ensure maximum effeciency out of the combat potential he currently has available to him


The fact that Belkar is performing an important function is utterly irrelevant to the degree to which the narrative is drawing attention to how Roy is preserving Belkar to perform that function. Belkar could have been performing the same function, but with the protection only implied rather than so explicitly shown and so deliberately drawn attention to.

only because Roy can both create concealment and keep himself alive so hed be telling others to do more aggressive roles

if Roy was as easy to kill as Belkar just as much time would be spent on keeping him alive as belkar


You want evidence?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0915.html

I assumed the events of the last few strips, and the extensive discussion going on in multiple threads on this forum on this very topic was sufficient that no one would have an attention span so short as to actually require the explicit references to the links in question.

I guess I was wrong about that in your case.

1) at no point in there did he in any way imply AT ALL that he considered his party members mere tools, if he did he wouldnt have created such a complex scenario in order to demonstrate Nales trustowrthiness to his party members he would ahve just ordered them to accept him

since he couldnt order them it stands to reason he treats them as equals which is why Malack was still trying to get revenge and Tarquin didnt just order him to forget the whole thing years ago

2) he ony killed his Son AFTER spending years keeping his son alive, and doing everything he could in order to give his son a position on his team (a very good offer) and it was only after Nale spit on everything Tarquins tried to do for him, spit all voer his good intentions, and declared (in very clear terms) that he completed hated him and wanted nothing to do with him

so Tarquin obeyed Nales wish and cut the fatherson bond (with a knife)


Good thing Belkar was always too slow to figure those fast enough.

or had a convenient cat withing throwing range of a soft unprotected face ; )


You can care for someone as a friend, or even as a son, and STILL consider him a tool to be used.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

... what?

a tool is something your completely emotionally detached from and care nothing, noone holds a burial for there hammer


The very moment when Nale made it clear that he would not be a tool.

more like the very moment when Nale said he hated Tarquin and wanted nothing to do with him

Tarquin wanted nothing more then to live with his Son


I used the term "asset" in my original post. In my second post I decided to vary terms a little and used a synonym.

asset and tool mean DIFFERENT things

[Amphiox]

asset and tool mean DIFFERENT things

Not in the context that I used the terms in. Those words have overlapping meanings, and my context was plenty clear that the meaning I was using lies within that overlap.

[Forikroder]

Not in the context that I used the terms in. Those words have overlapping meanings, and my context was plenty clear that the meaning I was using lies within that overlap.

context doesnt change the meaning of words

saying "i went to a shoolyard and slaugtered all the kids and had a lot of fun" does not change slaughter to mean "played with"

if you make a vague statement that could be understood multiple ways depending on the way you use it thats one thing (like saying you had a blast changes if your talking about going to a water park or going to war)

[Taelas]

No they are absolutely not mutually exclusive. Human relationships are far more complex than the kind of absolutist polarities you describe. Those exist only in bad fiction.

Tarquin flat out called Malack an asset. He flat out SAID "our friendship aside, he was an important asset". What more PROOF do you want that Tarquin saw Malack as BOTH a friend and an asset AT THE SAME TIME?

Sheesh.

There is a considerable difference between using the word 'asset' and using the word 'tool'. One is inherently pejorative; the other is not.

You cannot be a friend and a tool, since a tool is inherently something that is immediately replaceable. You don't lament the loss of a hammer; you just get a new one.

[Scow2]

You don't lament the loss of a hammer; you just get a new one. You obviously don't know my dad or older brother, then :smalltongue:

[Taelas]

You obviously don't know my dad or older brother, then :smalltongue:

True. But would they describe their hammers as mere "tools", or would they call them "assets"? :smallwink:

[Forikroder]

True. But would they describe their hammers as mere "tools", or would they call them "assets"? :smallwink:

maybe they call them by name?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html

Elans rapier is a tool, when it get sundered he doesnt care because its jsut a rapier

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html

Roys sword is not a Tool, its an asset, his partner his highly valued piece of metal

to Tarquin the mooks hes ordered to attack Roy are Tools, he doesnt care if they get sundered

to Tarquin Malack was an asset, his partner a gighly valued bits of skin and flesh held together by dark unholy magic

[Scow2]

True. But would they describe their hammers as mere "tools", or would they call them "assets"? :smallwink:

Tools. But they're VERY protective and possessive and caring of their tools - even the ones they get from Harbor Freight. A lot of their better-quality tools are older than I am.

[LadyEowyn]

I agree that the story is deliberately making it explicit that Roy's going out of his way to protect Belkar, given that shortly before, in Windy Canyon, Roy basically said to Haley that he was just waiting for Belkar to die, and after Durkon's death (granted, at a time of great stress for Roy) he was on the edge of killing Belkar himself.

There's also good reasons to conclude that - as well as being a change in Roy - it's also related to Belkar's unusual helpfulness in the last short while (telling the party about Durkon, knocking Roy out of his funk, finding the party a place to hide in the coffin, fighting the silicon elemental even while in serious danger of death for doing so), thus supporting Dream-Shojo's lesson to Belkar about the merits of being a team player. (Note that prior to the pyramid, Belkar was being maybe a mildly toned-down version of his usual annoying self, to the point of being seriously counterproductive in the Empire of Blood by getting Roy stuck in the arena fighting Thog - something that wouldn't have happened if Belkar had kept his head down and fought at an average level during the training, as ordered by Roy. It's a recent change, dating from Durkon's death.)

It's not just tactics - Durkon has several Dominated soldiers at a time, and any of them can kick up dust as well as Belkar can. And as Porthos very effectively pointed out, Rich is writing the text in a way that emphasizes that Roy is directing his actions around the protection of Belkar.

It's an interesting piece of character development for both of them.

[Forikroder]

I agree that the story is deliberately making it explicit that Roy's going out of his way to protect Belkar, given that shortly before, in Windy Canyon, Roy basically said to Haley that he was just waiting for Belkar to die, and after Durkon's death (granted, at a time of great stress for Roy) he was on the edge of killing Belkar himself.

There's also good reasons to conclude that - as well as being a change in Roy - it's also related to Belkar's unusual helpfulness in the last short while (telling the party about Durkon, knocking Roy out of his funk, finding the party a place to hide in the coffin, fighting the silicon elemental even while in serious danger of death for doing so), thus supporting Dream-Shojo's lesson to Belkar about the merits of being a team player. (Note that prior to the pyramid, Belkar was being maybe a mildly toned-down version of his usual annoying self, to the point of being seriously counterproductive in the Empire of Blood by getting Roy stuck in the arena fighting Thog - something that wouldn't have happened if Belkar had kept his head down and fought at an average level during the training, as ordered by Roy. It's a recent change, dating from Durkon's death.)

It's not just tactics - Durkon has several Dominated soldiers at a time, and any of them can kick up dust as well as Belkar can. And as Porthos very effectively pointed out, Rich is writing the text in a way that emphasizes that Roy is directing his actions around the protection of Belkar.

It's an interesting piece of character development for both of them.

hes not going out of his way at all to protect Belkar though, hes not being inconvenienced by this at all, he created a strategy using the assets he has available and the wink link in that strategy is Belkars health pool so hes ensuring that his strategy works by making sure Durkons aware of what needs to be done

[Diadem]

How badly hurt is Belkar anyway?

He was drained quite badly by a vampire earlier. If I'm not mistaken that means his con is now 1. But he should still have a metric ton of hitpoints due to being a high level ranger right? Or am I missing something?

[oonker]

hes not going out of his way at all to protect Belkar though, hes not being inconvenienced by this at all, he created a strategy using the assets he has available and the wink link in that strategy is Belkars health pool so hes ensuring that his strategy works by making sure Durkons aware of what needs to be done

And what we're arguing is that there's a huge narrative difference between implying this and expliciting this. :smallbiggrin:


True. But would they describe their hammers as mere "tools", or would they call them "assets"?

I'm writing this from Abelardo, my laptop. My car is named Isaías, my piggybank is Matias... I get attached to my tools, but if they break... well, I can always replace them.

[dancrilis]

He is drained by the amount required by the narrative.

But assuming that he has a con of one, and assuming that he has a level of 15 (ranger 12 barbarian 3 - to choose random numbers), and assuming that he has no con boosters (not sure if they can allow the natural con to be below one or not - my guess is not).
Than ((11d8+3d12+8)-75).
Rough figures 2 hit points (assuming that con drain after you have levels can take you below one hit point per level).
If it does not than he would have 15 hit points.
And if every level is tracked separately than: 26.375 hit points.

Again rough figures.

So pretty close to dead in a fight like this.

[Kish]

How badly hurt is Belkar anyway?

He was drained quite badly by a vampire earlier. If I'm not mistaken that means his con is now 1. But he should still have a metric ton of hitpoints due to being a high level ranger right? Or am I missing something?
Is 8+12d8+3d12-80 really a "metric ton"?

(Assuming Belkar is level 16 and has three levels of barbarian, both of which are "at most" assumptions, in my opinion.)

[Daywalker1983]

Roy, up until now, was clearly wanting Belkar to die. Sure, he's useful some times, but he has a prophecy looming over his head, and he also causes quite a deal of problems to the Order too. Going from that to devising his whole strategy around protecting Belkar, when he could focus on making his way up and leaving Belkar to keep up or die trying, or something, shows a huge change in behaviour.

Would you be able to provide an example of this?

While he was willing to wait for Belkar's Death (maybe only because he knew it would happen through the oracle), I don't think lawful good characters like Roy should be activley wanting anyone dead, even if it was Belkar. And I think there is no proof that he does.

[homeosapiens]

Another thought of belkar vampirism.

Creazy theory.

When they will be close to death - belkar will ask Durkon to vampirise him and tell him about the spell in the staff. He had seen it cast, so he is the person knowing - if Durkon is not.

This will be the ultimate sacrifice for him, and preety much end of character development started with shojo. But he will do it only on the promise that they will kill and raise him later.

[Scow2]

Is 8+12d8+3d12-80 really a "metric ton"?

(Assuming Belkar is level 16 and has three levels of barbarian, both of which are "at most" assumptions, in my opinion.)

...I thought the party was much lower-level when attempting to take Xykon the first time (~ level 7. The same CR as the Chimera sent to kill them). Does Belkar really have more than 8 or 9 levels of Ranger?

[Ubab]

Would you be able to provide an example of this?

While he was willing to wait for Belkar's Death (maybe only because he knew it would happen through the oracle), I don't think lawful good characters like Roy should be activley wanting anyone dead, even if it was Belkar. And I think there is no proof that he does.

I agreed with you. Waiting Belkar to die isn't wanting Belkar to die. I don't think that, on Roy's point of view, any part member are disposablem. And, since strip #666, Belkar had become more reliable, and a little less anoying.

----
English isn't my mother-language... Forgive me for any mistake and do be affraid to point me out, by PM.

[BlackGrail]

And the other aspect here is the contrast with Tarquin. Tarquin, as a leader of a team, has been shown to view all around him as tools. Assets to be protected or expended or abandoned as the situation demands. Even his so-called oldest friend. Even his son.

And here we have Roy, as leader of his team. How does he treat his teammates? Particularly the one we know he doesn't actually like much. Are his teammates assets to be exploited, tools to be used? Or do they mean more to Roy? Is Belkar an object to Roy, a weapon to be deployed, or is Belkar a person, with inherent worth independent of his situational usefulness?

Do Roy's actions in this strip show him to be like Tarquin, or different?

This has nothing at all to do with alignment, it has everything to do with survival. If Tarquin was in Roy's place here, he would do exactly the same thing. Hell, if Roy, Durkon and Belkar we're all CE (in fact Durkon might even be now) and hated each other guts, they'd still probably be doing what they are doing now and it'd be completely legitimate for them aligment-wise.

This is simply a life-and-death situation where the survival of everyone depends on everyone else. If Belkar kicks the bucket, Roy is next and he knows it. If Belkar survives long enough for Durkon to get his spells back, or anything else on that line happening, he can become a valuable combat asset and help them survive a little longer.

And besides, the only team member Roy was ever seriously considering of leaving to die was never Belkar, but Elan.

Tarquin, on the other hand, as much as we know of him, never left any of his team members to die while he continued alone on whatever quest he dragged them into.

So makes you wonder, eh?

[Forikroder]

And what we're arguing is that there's a huge narrative difference between implying this and expliciting this.

Roys a leader he cant imply what he wants Durkon to do, he tells Durkon what he wants him to do

saying "gee it would be a shame if Belkar dies" is not an effective way to give battle orders

or saying "man those archers are a pain if only we had a cloud of sand providing concealment" doesnt do squat to get Belkar to act how he wants

plus Belkar is dumb enough to need to be hit over the head with orders and Durkon just got vampirized so Roy is probably playing it safe with him

[Holammer]

What is really surprising is the big amount of effort from Roy's hand to keep Belkar alive.

Not reallllllly surprising.... Well, maybe a little.
Belkar's constantly done the right thing, spoke the truth and cared for the group at every turn [in his own way, but I'm not saying his alignment is shifting], he even did the 'heroes win because they have someone to protect' speech. While Roy on the other hand constantly distrusted and chided him, even threatened to kill him.

Upon realizing what an ass he's been, I guess Roy had a road to Damascus moment, now considering Belkar an important member of the OotS and protects him with the same ferocity he would defend anyone else. Something he never did in the 'happy ending' sequence. This makes the recent strip tug my heart strings.

... aaaaaaaaaand now I'm worried Rich is setting up the scene for Belkar's death. :smalleek:

[Taelas]

Personally, I think Belkar's solidly on his way to Chaotic Neutral. He's not there yet, but he's working on it.

[LadyEowyn]

Personally, I think Belkar's solidly on his way to Chaotic Neutral. He's not there yet, but he's working on it.
...He's, like, one day away from gruesomely murdering one man with another man's intestine for laughing at him. Two days away from stealing food that he doesn't even want to eat from starving people.

"Being more helpful to his team" doesn't equal "being a decent person".

[Taelas]

...He's, like, one day away from gruesomely murdering one man with another man's intestine for laughing at him. Two days away from stealing food that he doesn't even want to eat from starving people.

"Being more helpful to his team" doesn't equal "being a decent person".

Where did I say he was a decent person -- or even that he was becoming one? :smallconfused: I said he was becoming Chaotic Neutral. "Becoming" is not the same as "is", and a Chaotic Neutral person is not necessarily a decent one.

Let me make myself perfectly clear: Belkar, at the present, is still Chaotic Evil, and he still does Chaotic Evil things. But in my opinion, he is moving away from it. Before, he did nothing but acts of random Evil (except for one notable exception). Now he is capable of acts of random kindness.

I have felt a change in him especially since Durkon was vampirized in front of him.

[Forikroder]

Not reallllllly surprising.... Well, maybe a little.
Belkar's constantly done the right thing, spoke the truth and cared for the group at every turn [in his own way, but I'm not saying his alignment is shifting], he even did the 'heroes win because they have someone to protect' speech. While Roy on the other hand constantly distrusted and chided him, even threatened to kill him.

Upon realizing what an ass he's been, I guess Roy had a road to Damascus moment, now considering Belkar an important member of the OotS and protects him with the same ferocity he would defend anyone else. Something he never did in the 'happy ending' sequence. This makes the recent strip tug my heart strings.

... aaaaaaaaaand now I'm worried Rich is setting up the scene for Belkar's death.

the only way he could have protected Belkar in that fight is use his first action to punt belkar as far away as possible


...He's, like, one day away from gruesomely murdering one man with another man's intestine for laughing at him. Two days away from stealing food that he doesn't even want to eat from starving people.

"Being more helpful to his team" doesn't equal "being a decent person".

technically that could be rolled into neutral since he also assisted 2 wrongfully imprisoned people's escape and killed a group of slavers freeing an elderly man

hes still firmly evil, but being neutral doesnt mean doing no evil its not always doing evil

in fact neutral people are not decent people there more likely to be called *******s for there wieghing of pro/con for every action

like if a house is on fire and there an elderly woman trapped inside, the good person runs inside, the neutral person judges the odds of a successful rescue, how much saving the woman benefits him and the odds of him making it without serious injury and the evil person slinks away while hiding the matchs

right now Belkar is undoubtable in the evil but hes definently heading towards neutral

[homeosapiens]

I agree with u forikroder, thought u might start to use some spell check or something.

Also - my previous post went in tottally ignored :/

Posting again:

Another thought of Belkar vampirism.

Creazy theory.

When they will be close to death - Belkar will ask Durkon to vampirise him and tell him about the spell in the staff. He had seen it cast, so he is the person knowing - if Durkon is not.

This will be the ultimate sacrifice for him, and pretty much end of character development started with Shojo. But he will do it only on the promise that they will kill and raise him later.

[Paseo H]

...He's, like, one day away from gruesomely murdering one man with another man's intestine for laughing at him. Two days away from stealing food that he doesn't even want to eat from starving people.

"Being more helpful to his team" doesn't equal "being a decent person".

Oh come on. If Tarqin was a hero for vanquishing Nale, then Belkar did the world a favor by offing that evil mook. :smallbiggrin:

[oonker]

Roys a leader he cant imply what he wants Durkon to do, he tells Durkon what he wants him to do

saying "gee it would be a shame if Belkar dies" is not an effective way to give battle orders

or saying "man those archers are a pain if only we had a cloud of sand providing concealment" doesnt do squat to get Belkar to act how he wants

plus Belkar is dumb enough to need to be hit over the head with orders and Durkon just got vampirized so Roy is probably playing it safe with him

There's a difference from implying to his team to implying to the audience. We don't get to see Nale planning every single action, but it is implied that he did off-panel. Roy could have shouted many battle commands off-panel without us knowing, for example, and it would be implied that a "plan" was formed. This type of narrative was used, for example, in strip 858 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html).

You have to remember that this is a tale being told. And as a tale being told, the way in which you tell it makes the difference. Roy could give clear orders that would protect Belkar without expliciting that those orders were directed at the protection of Belkar. Roy did explicit his strategy not only to his team, but to us, the audience. Things happen off panel as well, and Elan even showed this to the audience (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html) (us). Look at panels 6 and 7.

The thing is, as the author of the story, the Giant could have made the story in such a way that the characters would act as they did, but without the need to say those orders out loud. The characters are set in such a way that we would believe that Roy would take the best course of action, simply because he's always done so in the previous 900 strips (exceptions exist, of course). What you have to consider here is: what is present in this strip that is not in the others? And this is Roy expliciting a battle plan that revolves around the protection of Belkar. This is what he chose to show us, to focus on the strip. Of course, this is my interpretation of this strip, and the author could show up at any minute and say "hey, you know what? I did not think of any of that. You're wrong!".

But before you analyze the efficiency of the strategy, you have to analyze the narrative. And from my point of view, the narrative of this strip, regarding the focus on the OotS, is in the change of heart of Roy in consideration to Belkar.

There are other equally efficient ways of saying the same things, while with a very narrative distinction. The fact the Giant used four panels to describe the strategy around Belkar represents something. That's a narrative choice.

For instance, he could say:


But the Giant made a point of hilighting Roy's protection of Belkar in this strip when he did not have to. For example, the strip could have been presented with Roy shouting "Belkar, take cover!" followed by him slicing the dinosaur. There didn't have to be the additional panels of Belkar asking "where" and THEN Roy slicing the dinosaur, which puts direct narrative attention to Roy doing that for Belkar. Similarly, the dialogue could have simply been Roy telling Durkon to "form a perimeter" with his dominated soldiers. There did not need to be the additional statement "around Belkar". And when Belkar requested to be let loose to fight, Roy could have simply been shown to say "Stay there, you are more useful making concealment right now." It was not necessary to add the part about Belkar being skewered.

Hell, for all we know, "Plan A" might be only regarding the restoration of Belkar (since "restoration" was the only magic he explicitly asked for).

[Forikroder]

Another thought of Belkar vampirism.

Creazy theory.

When they will be close to death - Belkar will ask Durkon to vampirise him and tell him about the spell in the staff. He had seen it cast, so he is the person knowing - if Durkon is not.

This will be the ultimate sacrifice for him, and pretty much end of character development started with Shojo. But he will do it only on the promise that they will kill and raise him later.

well its relying on
A) the staff actually being usable in that function again

B) Belkar knowing enough about magic to actually know that Malack used the staff to cast the spell

C) Durkon being able to figure out how to use the staff to cast it again

D) the staff having enough charges of "protection from daylight" to keep both Durkula and count belkar alive

E) Roy being willing to allow durkon to use 3~ rounds to do so

F) Roy being willing to bring Belkar back as a far more dangerous and evil entity

so all in all its pretty unlikely for it to happen



There's a difference from implying to his team to implying to the audience. We don't get to see Nale planning every single action, but it is implied that he did off-panel. Roy could have shouted many battle commands off-panel without us knowing, for example, and it would be implied that a "plan" was formed. This type of narrative was used, for example, in strip 858.

i dont see why you think 858 has orders given off panel or why you think thats comparable to the current one

why would rich set up the comic in such a way that he has 90% of the conversation occur off panel? its not like the strip is cluttered in any way and having stuff happen off panel for no reason is bad storytelling its better to ahve as much happen on panel as possible


You have to remember that this is a tale being told. And as a tale being told, the way in which you tell it makes the difference. Roy could give clear orders that would protect Belkar without expliciting that those orders were directed at the protection of Belkar. Roy did explicit his strategy not only to his team, but to us, the audience. Things happen off panel as well, and Elan even showed this to the audience (us). Look at panels 6 and 7.

yes im sure if he wanted to he could use his high intellect score to tell Durkon to protect belkar in the sneakiest and hardest to understand way possible and make anyone but V incapable of following his orders

but generally when the leader of a military unit is in a life or death scenario he tries to clearly communicate with his soldiers to prevent miscommunication


What you have to consider here is: what is present in this strip that is not in the others? And this is Roy expliciting a battle plan that revolves around the protection of Belkar. This is what he chose to show us, to focus on the strip. Of course, this is my interpretation of this strip, and the author could show up at any minute and say "hey, you know what? I did not think of any of that. You're wrong!".

2 things present in this strip not present in any other, Roy Durkon and Belkar trapped in isolated position against large amounts of ranged enemies and a crippled Belkar

Roy has 2 main challenges he needs to overcome
1) an army of swordsmen coming at him
2) a large amount of archers supporting them

problem one is easy enough to handle only a few mooks can attack at once and great cleave deals with them handly enough and Durkon can create a human wall prventing them getting alot of surface area

problem 2 is alot more challenging, every single archer can freely attack roy, which means that Roys gonna be taking tons of damage so he needs protection, the best he can get is concealment

so he inventories his assets, he has himself (who has the ability to take out 5 men in one swing) he has Durkon (able to create beforemenntioned human wall) and he has Belkar (whoprobably couldnt even take out 5 men in his current state)

so obviously he decides that Belkars role is creating concealment but that takes time so he needs to create cover so Belkar doesnt get killed first

so Belkar has his orders next is deciding how to create the human wall, Roy has high AC, is mowing down Mooks (and actually benefits from being surrounded so more in range of greater cleave) Durkon has high AC, high DR and fast regen so hes not needed to be protected at all

Belkar has low HP mid AC so he needs protection most so thats the most optimal place to start creating the human wall in order for it to have maximum effectiveness

Roys plan has NOTHING to do with emotions (hes actually amazing at completely cutting emotions at critical junctures and calmly looking at the scenario) it has everything to do with maximizing his 2 assets to the best of there current ability

[homeosapiens]

Some of your points are moot.

B) Malack said what he did exacly. That's why B. knows.

A) Who has a staff with 1 charge of something? I guess he has 2-3 at least.

C) I think it's it's just about declaration. Why wouldnt he be able? He is better spellcaster than Malack.

D) That's rather not the most important matter RIGHT NOW. (not shouting, pointing out) Ofc by this i mean staff surely has some of them. They will take care of this, researching a spell from the staff after the battle.

E) ??? 3 rounds to have belkar back in the fight more powerfull then ever? Insted of wasting time protecting him? Dominated guys can kick up the sand.

F) Belkar was evil all along. He's just going to be more powerfull, but on the contrary - more reliable. Durkon can control him.

[oonker]

i dont see why you think 858 has orders given off panel or why you think thats comparable to the current one

why would rich set up the comic in such a way that he has 90% of the conversation occur off panel? its not like the strip is cluttered in any way and having stuff happen off panel for no reason is bad storytelling its better to ahve as much happen on panel as possible

What? In this very strip, the 858, he completely devised an impeccable battle plan completely off panel. He decided that Haley would shoot the smoking arrow, Durkon would appear and use Holy Word, Belkar would get Deaf (and so, immune to the effects of the Suggestion Spell Nale was about to use)... and all of this off panel. This is excellent storytelling because it can surprise us, make us understand Roy is a tactical genius, and advances the story.

What I am saying is the Giant could tell this tale in such a way that Roy shouted the orders to the Order off-panel, and focus the storytelling in something else.


yes im sure if he wanted to he could use his high intellect score to tell Durkon to protect belkar in the sneakiest and hardest to understand way possible and make anyone but V incapable of following his orders

but generally when the leader of a military unit is in a life or death scenario he tries to clearly communicate with his soldiers to prevent miscommunication

to this point, I believe you haven't understood the off panel/on panel mechanics. The characters don't just stand there, motionless, between panels. Things are happening simultaneously. The panels are merely a focus to the story. For example, at this very moment Xykon is advancing towards Kraagor's gate, and yet we're not seeing this ocurring. This happens because it's more narratively interesting to show the struggle of the Order to survive against overwhelming odds.



o he inventories his assets, he has himself (who has the ability to take out 5 men in one swing) he has Durkon (able to create beforemenntioned human wall) and he has Belkar (whoprobably couldnt even take out 5 men in his current state)

so obviously he decides that Belkars role is creating concealment but that takes time so he needs to create cover so Belkar doesnt get killed first

so Belkar has his orders next is deciding how to create the human wall, Roy has high AC, is mowing down Mooks (and actually benefits from being surrounded so more in range of greater cleave) Durkon has high AC, high DR and fast regen so hes not needed to be protected at all

Belkar has low HP mid AC so he needs protection most so thats the most optimal place to start creating the human wall in order for it to have maximum effectiveness

Roys plan has NOTHING to do with emotions (hes actually amazing at completely cutting emotions at critical junctures and calmly looking at the scenario) it has everything to do with maximizing his 2 assets to the best of there current ability

No one is saying that Roy is taking a bad decision, or that he's not potentializing the capabilities of the Order to the maximum he can at the moment. The point in question is not this, and I believe it was perceivable clearly throught the strip.

The point in question is: based on what Roy is saying, is there enough evidence to indicate that Roy is having a change of heart regarding Belkar? Is Roy more understanding that Belkar is not only a killing machine, but an integral part of the OotS? Would Roy, at this juncture, be more inclined to mourn Belkar than what he was 100 strips ago?

IMHO: yes.

After all, this whole discussion came from:


What is really surprising is the big amount of effort from Roy's hand to keep Belkar alive.

[Forikroder]

B) Malack said what he did exacly. That's why B. knows.

assuming that B is smart enough to figure it out


A) Who has a staff with 1 charge of something? I guess he has 2-3 at least.

he used a very powerful bit of magic, it wouldnt at all be wierd of the staff could only hold one charge at a time (lots of magic items have one time use only abilities and why would he ever need to use more then one charge in a short time?) or at least has a long ass CD on it


C) I think it's it's just about declaration. Why wouldnt he be able? He is better spellcaster than Malack.

he doesnt know what spell Malack actually cast though he cant just poke a corpse and it comes back to life he has to use the staff correctly

Durkon may have more caster levels, but Malack has more caster knowledge


D) That's rather not the most important matter RIGHT NOW. (not shouting, pointing out) Ofc by this i mean staff surely has some of them. They will take care of this, researching a spell from the staff after the battle.

what if the staff only grants the wielder protection from daylight? or the Mooks use the time between Durkon munching on Belkar to force Durkon in a position where he cant revive him or protect him? theres so many unnecesary risks in that plan


E) ??? 3 rounds to have belkar back in the fight more powerfull then ever? Insted of wasting time protecting him? Dominated guys can kick up the sand.

3 rounds in which Roy has to stand alone against the entire army, think he can survive that?

3 rounds where Durkon is vulnerable to getting dogpiled and forcefully removed from the fight or one of them nab belkar to prevent them from getting concealment

3 rounds is a long time


F) Belkar was evil all along. He's just going to be more powerfull, but on the contrary - more reliable. Durkon can control him.

and if Roy doesnt trust Durkon?

this whole idea is pretty foolish, none of the party have the knowledge neccesary to pull it off this is a plan Nale would think off


What? In this very strip, the 858, he completely devised an impeccable battle plan completely off panel. He decided that Haley would shoot the smoking arrow, Durkon would appear and use Holy Word, Belkar would get Deaf (and so, immune to the effects of the Suggestion Spell Nale was about to use)... and all of this off panel. This is excellent storytelling because it can surprise us, make us understand Roy is a tactical genius, and advances the story.

What I am saying is the Giant could tell this tale in such a way that Roy shouted the orders to the Order off-panel, and focus the storytelling in something else.
...

im having a hard time trying to figure out how you cant understand your comparing apples to oranges

you said that Roy should shout out order off panel despite like 30 seconds of OoTS time is spent on someone other then Roy (elan and Tarquins little tiff)


to this point, I believe you haven't understood the off panel/on panel mechanics. The characters don't just stand there, motionless, between panels. Things are happening simultaneously. The panels are merely a focus to the story. For example, at this very moment Xykon is advancing towards Kraagor's gate, and yet we're not seeing this ocurring. This happens because it's more narratively interesting to show the struggle of the Order to survive against overwhelming odds.

yes time passes "between panels" but your dont understand

take the latest chapter each strip is a still frame of a certain time period, first panel being like 00:00 to 00:10 then second being 00:10 to 00:20 (maybe i should have gone by 6 to be combat round) the point being when a strip is focused on action NO TIME passes between panels the events of panel 2 happen immediately after the events of panel one and so on and so on

so while yes the giant could have saved 5 panels by having all of Roys strategizing happen off panel

why in the 9 hells would he? the more details you show a reader the better

read panel 6 of the second half of the strip it quite clearly explains what Roy is thinking


No one is saying that Roy is taking a bad decision, or that he's not potentializing the capabilities of the Order to the maximum he can at the moment. The point in question is not this, and I believe it was perceivable clearly throught the strip.

The point in question is: based on what Roy is saying, is there enough evidence to indicate that Roy is having a change of heart regarding Belkar? Is Roy more understanding that Belkar is not only a killing machine, but an integral part of the OotS? Would Roy, at this juncture, be more inclined to mourn Belkar than what he was 100 strips ago?

you contradincting youself and its infuriating

either "this strip shows that Roy now cares for Belkar" or "this strip shows Roy is a good leader"

theres no middle ground it cant show both

[homeosapiens]

B. ??? U assume he doesn't understand common , or what?

A SRD:
Staffs
A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells. Unlike wands, which can contain a wide variety of spells, each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells. A staff has 50 charges when created.

C I dont see why not. He uses the staff they way B. tells him to. You can cast spells from scroll if you dont know that spell. So you should be able to cast from staff the same way.

D Nope. Malack said exacly: Staff also hold's that spell. How they can get him to any possition - this army is no treat to him with his damage reduction and strenght they couldn't do **** to him even if they tryed their hardest.

E Yup. He can. He just said he plans to survive until dusk - you know how many rounds that is? Nobody is protecting him.

F) i still think he trusts him. Durkon is his long time friend and he accepted him to the team as a vampire with no doubt. He trust him more than he used to trust belkar several strips ago. I'm not sure about now.

What - like knowledge - religion? Im preety sure Durkon has it(it's about undead too).

[oonker]

you said that Roy should shout out order off panel despite like 30 seconds of OoTS time is spent on someone other then Roy (elan and Tarquins little tiff)

Not saying he should, just that he could. Not only he could, but also he already did so in the past (strip 858), when it was more narratively interesting to do so, prooving that in this strip he did have the option to shout off panel, but instead chose to do so on panel.


so while yes the giant could have saved 5 panels by having all of Roys strategizing happen off panel

why in the 9 hells would he? the more details you show a reader the better

Not necessarily "the more details you show a reader the better". The answer to this question is "only the Giant knows why would he do the things he does". Maybe it's because it's visually more attractive the way he did. Maybe he's trying to pass on a message. Maybe he just thought it looked cooler. My guess is on the "he wanted to show us that he cared about Belkar, not only strategy wise". But to truly know the answer, just the guy himself to answer it for you.


you contradincting youself and its infuriating

either "this strip shows that Roy now cares for Belkar" or "this strip shows Roy is a good leader"

theres no middle ground it cant show both

This kind of chain of thought is too overly simplified, and does not encompass the complexity of the human nature.

This strip:

a - Show us Roy now cares for Belkar, more than he did 100 strips ago
b - Confirms Roy's abilities as a strategist
c - Establishes the total rupture of Elan and Tarquin
d - Gives us a sense of overwhelming odds
e - Shows us that Durkon can use his dominating gaze

[Forikroder]

B. ??? U assume he doesn't understand common , or what?

in all honesty... yes

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0523.html


A SRD:
Staffs
A staff is a long shaft of wood that stores several spells. Unlike wands, which can contain a wide variety of spells, each staff is of a certain kind and holds specific spells. A staff has 50 charges when created.

heres a list of a couple differnet staffs which have spells that you only can use once

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/staffs.htm


C I dont see why not. He uses the staff they way B. tells him to. You can cast spells from scroll if you dont know that spell. So you should be able to cast from staff the same way.

oh yea ill guess Belkar will jsut use his ranks on knowledge(arcana) to school Durkon in the proper use of the staff in the middle of a freaking battle


D Nope. Malack said exacly: Staff also hold's that spell. How they can get him to any possition - this army is no treat to him with his damage reduction and strenght they couldn't do **** to him even if they tryed their hardest.

the Giants already fudged the grapple rules last time Durkon got into a wrestling match, im sure 4 mooks would be able to hold Durkon down effectively enough


E Yup. He can. He just said he plans to survive until dusk - you know how many rounds that is? Nobody is protecting him.

Durkon and Belkar are protecting him...


F) i still think he trusts him. Durkon is his long time friend and he accepted him to the team as a vampire with no doubt. He trust him more than he used to trust belkar several strips ago. I'm not sure about now.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html

Panel one "hes durkon enough for our purposes" wether Roy actually thinks that or is just placating belkar is still undecided


What - like knowledge - religion? Im preety sure Durkon has it(it's about undead too).

not sure what this is reffering to at all, but Durkon needs the name of the spell to cast it, he needs knows what to say and what to do in order for the magic to work properly and he knows neither

(BTW please PLEASE quote the bits your responding to it makes it so much easier to respond)

[Porthos]

in all honesty... yes

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0523.html

That was Belkar being a jackass and refusing to respect Haley's authority.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[homeosapiens]

It's time consuming, but sure, for your convenience.


in all honesty... yes

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0523.html


1. That strip was about beeing funny in a non serious situation. About beeing evil too. Not about beeing stupid.

2. That way you could say Roy and haley are just as bad for the argument with going down/up a level.




heres a list of a couple differnet staffs which have spells that you only can use once

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/staffs.htm



Those are epic staffs, Malack has no acces to. He might be epic ecl, but to create epic items you have to be 21+ in real level.



oh yea ill guess Belkar will jsut use his ranks on knowledge(arcana) to school Durkon in the proper use of the staff in the middle of a freaking battle


Activation
Staffs use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a staff is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a staff.) To activate a staff, a character must hold it forth in at least one hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures).

Spell Trigger
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character(someone who can cast divine spells< cleric< high level cleric=Durkon, note - this said nothing about that it has to be THIS caster, staff creator) would know, and a single word that must be spoken(if there was one - Belkar saw it). Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list(spell lists are general - cleric/druid/wizard etc - didn't research doesnt mean it's not on his list - it's about if he could cast it if he knew how to due to his class) knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it(That Belkar would also know, becouse during casting everyone names the spell he cast, even if it's sometimes not shown - it's like verbal component for this comic). Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.




the Giants already fudged the grapple rules last time Durkon got into a wrestling match, im sure 4 mooks would be able to hold Durkon down effectively enough


? U mean in fight with malack? He was a goner like hell back there. No fudging. Malack was stronger, used divine power and was actually a snake.



Durkon and Belkar are protecting him...

Durkon is protecting Belkar. Belkar is providing cover. Roy can be surrounded only by 8 people. Doesnt matter how many there are. since he can easyy take like like 50 more arrows i dont see how that matters.



http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0910.html

Panel one "hes durkon enough for our purposes" wether Roy actually thinks that or is just placating belkar is still undecided


I dont know what you mean by this. You think i didnt read the strip or what? Roy relied on Durkon enought to not kill him as an oviously evil powerful creature that drinks human blood. He let him join his team, thought he knows Durkon might dominate them into fighting themselves if he wanted to. He is not happy about the fact that he is evil now, but he is happy about that he is helping. He trusted his life in him when he let him join his team. So while i dont think he trusts him fully and perfectly - he trusts him more than he used to trust belkar earlier on. Durkon is still lawfull.




not sure what this is reffering to at all, but Durkon needs the name of the spell to cast it, he needs knows what to say and what to do in order for the magic to work properly and he knows neither

(BTW please PLEASE quote the bits your responding to it makes it so much easier to respond)

Answered earlier. This answer isn't 100%, but if giant wanted to do it - there is nothing against really.

[Forikroder]

1. That strip was about beeing funny in a non serious situation. About beeing evil too. Not about beeing stupid.

2. That way you could say Roy and haley are just as bad for the argument with going down/up a level.

if you want i can link a half dozen other strips that show quite clearly how dumb Belkar is

understanding the finer points of casting a spell is far above his IQ level


Those are epic staffs, Malack has no acces to. He might be epic ecl, but to create epic items you have to be 21+ in real level.

if i had access to DMG im sure i could offer up a good long list of plenty of other non-epic staffs with one off spells

and since Tarquin has an epic level ring on his finger i dont think you can say that Malack cant have an epic level staff


Spell Trigger
Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it’s even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character(someone who can cast divine spells< cleric< high level cleric=Durkon, note - this said nothing about that it has to be THIS caster, staff creator) would know, and a single word that must be spoken(if there was one - Belkar saw it). Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list(spell lists are general - cleric/druid/wizard etc - didn't research doesnt mean it's not on his list - it's about if he could cast it if he knew how to due to his class) knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it(That Belkar would also know, becouse during casting everyone names the spell he cast, even if it's sometimes not shown - it's like verbal component for this comic). Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

your forgetting that the spell on Malacks staff is a 100% hombrewed malack special

no other Cleric in the world can cast mass death ward, if Durkon made a staff and added mass death ward to it another cleric cannot just nab the staff and start casting it

Belkar has a near impossibly low wisdom score, he is terrible at noticing things its very very unlikely that at the distance Malack was from him he was able to hear the exact word that Malack used to activate the staff and actually managed to remember it

plus its very unlikely that Belkar can then put your whole plan together himself (even ignoring the unlikelyness of him trusting them with the execution) and noone else is going to suggest it


? U mean in fight with malack? He was a goner like hell back there. No fudging. Malack was stronger, used divine power and was actually a snake.

malack specifically states hes using a special exotic grapply move thats impossible to break from

also considering base stats and all that even with his buffs Malacks not going to be able to raise his str score enough to easily overpower Durkon


Durkon is protecting Belkar. Belkar is providing cover. Roy can be surrounded only by 8 people. Doesnt matter how many there are. since he can easyy take like like 50 more arrows i dont see how that matters.

well that theres more then 50 archers for one

Roy will not survive 3 rounds alone

[homeosapiens]

if you want i can link a half dozen other strips that show quite clearly how dumb Belkar is

understanding the finer points of casting a spell is far above his IQ level



There are no finer points. You just think of the spell you want to use, and use it. There might be a activation word.



if i had access to DMG im sure i could offer up a good long list of plenty of other non-epic staffs with one off spells

and since Tarquin has an epic level ring on his finger i dont think you can say that Malack cant have an epic level staff


This is a staff Malack created. It contains spells he researched himself. Thus it is very unlikely that he bought it. I did not say he couldn't have epic staff. He could. He just doesn't because:
A) Protection from sunlight and hasten vampire creation are spells useful only to vampires
B) He says so.




your forgetting that the spell on Malacks staff is a 100% hombrewed malack special

no other Cleric in the world can cast mass death ward, if Durkon made a staff and added mass death ward to it another cleric cannot just nab the staff and start casting it

Belkar has a near impossibly low wisdom score, he is terrible at noticing things its very very unlikely that at the distance Malack was from him he was able to hear the exact word that Malack used to activate the staff and actually managed to remember it

plus its very unlikely that Belkar can then put your whole plan together himself (even ignoring the unlikelyness of him trusting them with the execution) and noone else is going to suggest it


I am not forgetting anything. Stop thinking or writing that please. Yes both of the spells he used from staff are his special. This doesnt mean that other cleric couldnt cast it. It means other cleric couldn't cast it without the staff. Because if you are right then:

A) Durkon is utterly destroyed next day if they are in the sun.
B) There is not rule that says so.

The "why" would Belkar do it was mentioned earlier. As a ultimate act of sacrifice. This is not something he wants.

And "how could be that smart" is the ongoing thing in this arc. He is the reason for them staying alive. He noticed the coffin. He saved them. He didnt many other things that pointed to "Belkar got more useful, smarter, and more of a team player recently".




malack specifically states hes using a special exotic grapply move thats impossible to break from

also considering base stats and all that even with his buffs Malacks not going to be able to raise his str score enough to easily overpower Durkon


I dont know how you came up with that. Malack has like 26-30 str(+8-10), durkon got 14-16(+2/3).

Malack's bab is 12+

Durkons 10-12

It means Malack has +7.5 more to graple than durkon + whatever feat he has (which might be just improved grapple<+4>).

This mean's that Malack usually wins. Then he drains levels, and adventage is even bigger. No chance.



well that theres more then 50 archers for one

Roy will not survive 3 rounds alone

By what logic? We are in DnD world. Roy would survive if he had fallen from space. Why wouldnt he survive 3 round with 8 guys that hit him % of the time + some archers that dont see him at all and are well beyond regular bow range. 10lv fighter would. Roy is WELL above that.

[homeosapiens]

Activation could be : Rise Belkar! Rise and seek the blood of the living!
:)

[Forikroder]

There are no finer points. You just think of the spell you want to use, and use it. There might be a activation word.

but they dont know the spell nor the word


This is a staff Malack created. It contains spells he researched himself. Thus it is very unlikely that he bought it. I did not say he couldn't have epic staff. He could. He just doesn't because:
A) Protection from sunlight and hasten vampire creation are spells useful only to vampires
B) He says so.

whos to say he didnt get help making the staff and only supplied the spells while someone else supplied the power?

and again the staff doesnt have to be epic to only have one charge of X spell


I dont know how you came up with that. Malack has like 26-30 str(+8-10), durkon got 14-16(+2/3).

Malack's bab is 12+

Durkons 10-12

and you pulled these numbers out of a hat

i say that Malack has 2 str and Durkon has 22 str and Durkons BAB is 15 while Malacks is only 5


By what logic? We are in DnD world. Roy would survive if he had fallen from space. Why wouldnt he survive 3 round with 8 guys that hit him % of the time + some archers that dont see him at all and are well beyond regular bow range. 10lv fighter would. Roy is WELL above that.

considering he took at least 5 arrows in the first panel of the latest strip you might want to rethink your argument

this is starting to drag on so let me point out the main reasons this will never happen

1) Belkar was too far away from Malack to hear what word he used to cast the spell, and Belkar is to dumb to come up with your plan in the first place (his prefered startegy is for him to run straight into the army despite his weakness)

2)even if he could come up with the strategy and present it theres WAY too many unnecesary risks (moving parts as Tarquin would say) such as theres no way for them to know if the staff can even still cast the spell that they dont know how to cast and how vulnerable the team would be while casting it

3) narratively its just dumb to think that Rich is going to have a character die like that, kill Bekar just to temp vampire him then kill him again and raise hm? that completely cheapens that it just happened to Durkon and Rich obviously wants to put serious value on peoples life and death, if someone dies there gonna remain dead (or take a lot of effort to reverse that death)

[homeosapiens]

but they dont know the spell nor the word


I wrote earlier how it works. You need to know which spell you have to cast. You dont need to know it. Otherwise Durkon is a toast and u specially did not answer that, because you had no answer.

And Belar was close enought to hear durkon last wish. Why wouldnt he hear something alse? Like trigger word?



whos to say he didnt get help making the staff and only supplied the spells while someone else supplied the power?

and again the staff doesnt have to be epic to only have one charge of X spell


That's possible, thought unlikely. He had this same staff 15 years ago, when he wasn't rich as hell.



and you pulled these numbers out of a hat

i say that Malack has 2 str and Durkon has 22 str and Durkons BAB is 15 while Malacks is only 5



I did not. 12 bab is minimum for 12lv cleric with divine power. Malack is 12+ for create staff. his strenght is +6 for vampire and +6 for divine power. So 26 assumen base 14 and 30 assumes base 18. He is some sort of yoan ti, snake kind of race that also give + to strengh.

Durkon is 14-16 cleric - 10-12 bab. 14-16 strenght comes from him beeing a malee oriented cleric, not just a caster. Also he can carry vaarsuvius but not roy.



considering he took at least 5 arrows in the first panel of the latest strip you might want to rethink your argument


Thats because it was a voley from say 400 crossbows. 5% of that divided by 4 characters is exacly 5. Also they have their own man down there now.



this is starting to drag on so let me point out the main reasons this will never happen

I'm enjoying this :P. Im not saying it will happen. Im saying it could.



1) Belkar was too far away from Malack to hear what word he used to cast the spell, and Belkar is to dumb to come up with your plan in the first place (his prefered startegy is for him to run straight into the army despite his weakness)


Then how was he able to tell Roy Durkons final wish to Malack? Beeing to far away wouldn't let him. Belar is not dumb when he doesn't want to or the story doesn't want him to be.



2)even if he could come up with the strategy and present it theres WAY too many unnecesary risks (moving parts as Tarquin would say) such as theres no way for them to know if the staff can even still cast the spell that they dont know how to cast and how vulnerable the team would be while casting it


This is a last resort starategy - something we do if we think we die otherwise. Alas - this have no meaning. We die or we might not die if we try. Let's try.



3) narratively its just dumb to think that Rich is going to have a character die like that, kill Bekar just to temp vampire him then kill him again and raise hm? that completely cheapens that it just happened to Durkon and Rich obviously wants to put serious value on peoples life and death, if someone dies there gonna remain dead (or take a lot of effort to reverse that death)

Not really. Durkon has 7lv spells now, and if Belak were to die, all they needed was his hair or a drop of blood. It makes perfect sense if we add up - "will draw his last breath" - undead dont breatche and "the lil buger's bad enought already" -Belkar recent turn to closer to neutral.

[Forikroder]

Not really. Durkon has 7lv spells now, and if Belak were to die, all they needed was his hair or a drop of blood. It makes perfect sense if we add up - "will draw his last breath" - undead dont breatche and "the lil buger's bad enought already" -Belkar recent turn to closer to neutral.

you completely ignored everything i said in that point and instead talked about completely unrelated things entirely

The Giant is not going to ahve Belkar die, 3 times, just so the OoTS get a little more firepower it cheapens the death of everyone whos died and removes all emotional weight from Durkons death and reanimation


Then how was he able to tell Roy Durkons final wish to Malack? Beeing to far away wouldn't let him. Belar is not dumb when he doesn't want to or the story doesn't want him to be.

Durkon talking to Malack would be a good bit louder then Malacks mumbling to himself

and again even assuming that he did manage to hear what words Malack used to cast the spell, doesnt mean squat because Belkar doesnt understand enough about magic to know that whoever holds the staff can cast the spell and Belkar isnt anywhere near smart enough to come up with your ridiculous theory, itd be completely out of character for him in every single way


I wrote earlier how it works. You need to know which spell you have to cast. You dont need to know it. Otherwise Durkon is a toast and u specially did not answer that, because you had no answer.

unless the Staff just gives whoever holds onto it protection from daylight, then Malack doesnt need to worry about panic casting it as long as he has his staff and explains why Durkons been holding onto it like a safety blanket this entire time instead of switching to more familiar sword and board (or hammer and board)


That's possible, thought unlikely. He had this same staff 15 years ago, when he wasn't rich as hell.

no he had A staff 15 years ago, it may have been a worthless twig at that point and later got enchanted to have power (or later enchanted for more power)


I did not. 12 bab is minimum for 12lv cleric with divine power. Malack is 12+ for create staff. his strenght is +6 for vampire and +6 for divine power. So 26 assumen base 14 and 30 assumes base 18. He is some sort of yoan ti, snake kind of race that also give + to strengh.

14 is a number you pulled out of a hat


Durkon is 14-16 cleric - 10-12 bab. 14-16 strenght comes from him beeing a malee oriented cleric, not just a caster. Also he can carry vaarsuvius but not roy.

so why does a cleric 2-4 levels higher then a 12th level cleric have a BaB of 10-12 while the 12th level is guranteed 12?


Thats because it was a voley from say 400 crossbows. 5% of that divided by 4 characters is exacly 5. Also they have their own man down there now.

right so if all of them focused on Roy, hed be taking 15 arrows so 60 arrows in the 3 rounds it would take, plus melee hits from the mooks

[homeosapiens]

you completely ignored everything i said in that point and instead talked about completely unrelated things entirely

The Giant is not going to ahve Belkar die, 3 times, just so the OoTS get a little more firepower it cheapens the death of everyone whos died and removes all emotional weight from Durkons death and reanimation

Yes i did. Because it made no sense! Why would he die 2 times? No. He has to die in a way that makes it infeasible to ressurect him. Just like when Roy died and team was separated. Do you understand? They will res him if they can, because he is an asset and they need to kill Xykon. Only way he dies normal way is if he dies in the final battle, provided he does something really bad on the way. The way he acts now, they would res him anyway.


Durkon talking to Malack would be a good bit louder then Malacks mumbling to himself

and again even assuming that he did manage to hear what words Malack used to cast the spell, doesnt mean squat because Belkar doesnt understand enough about magic to know that whoever holds the staff can cast the spell and Belkar isnt anywhere near smart enough to come up with your ridiculous theory, itd be completely out of character for him in every single way

He does understand enought to tell what is raise dead and what level spell it is. You keep saying he's too dumb i say he is not. We ll never reach consensus, so just stop. Also - you are not the one who decides what is out of character, me niether.

And Malack said the possible trigger pretty much aloud.



unless the Staff just gives whoever holds onto it protection from daylight, then Malack doesnt need to worry about panic casting it as long as he has his staff and explains why Durkons been holding onto it like a safety blanket this entire time instead of switching to more familiar sword and board (or hammer and board)

I explained it earlier. The staff doesnt give effect to the person carring it. It "holds" the spell - might be cast from it. Durkon just carries it around to be able to cast the spell if someone dispels his protection. Staffs do not work this way. If you can explain words "it also holds the spell" as it is cast on the staff wearer then you are not understanding english properly. It means it is inside.


no he had A staff 15 years ago, it may have been a worthless twig at that point and later got enchanted to have power (or later enchanted for more power)

OK.



14 is a number you pulled out of a hat

On Malacks part? 14 seems legit cause of snake race. But true no hard evidence.



so why does a cleric 2-4 levels higher then a 12th level cleric have a BaB of 10-12 while the 12th level is guranteed 12?

Divine power. Look it up. OR i ll just tell you.
cleric 4
divine power
+6 str(ench)
turn your base aattack bonus into your lv(may give additional attacks)
+1hp/caster lv

Malack did cast it just before starting grapple.

And you are the one that thinks i am forgeting something?




right so if all of them focused on Roy, hed be taking 15 arrows so 60 arrows in the 3 rounds it would take, plus melee hits from the mooks

Wrong.
1. They stopped shooting volleys, becasue they'd kill they're own men.
2. They have concealment now. If Belkar will not do it someone alse will (e.g. dominated soldiers)
3. Did you see any malee mook hitting roy? No. Hmh, figures..
4.15x3 = 45...


So what we have? Roy is not beeing shot at - because if there is 95%(+20%concealment) chance you will not hit the target, and a bigger chance then that, that you will kill your own soldier - where is the reason to shoot?

How that affects your math? 8 mooks with sword, averages 1 hit in 3 rounds.

[oonker]

and Belkar isnt anywhere near smart enough to come up with your ridiculous theory, itd be completely out of character for him in every single way

Although I do agree that the homeosapiens theory will not come to pass, Belkar is not dumb. There's no proof of that.

There're many many many hard evidences that show that he is a jackass, he doesn't respect authority (especially Haley's), he is a selfish bastard, he will go to great lengths to avoid pain and effort, he will always prefer the setting things on fire approach and that the only drop of altruism he has is regarding Mr. Scruffy (or when he saved Ennor and Gannji, but just because they reminded him of Mr. Scruffy). We also have many evidences that he has a below average WIS score, and also that his anger and agressiveness come from this.

But not necessarily dumb.

[homeosapiens]

I hoped to find more here when i wake up.

But if this happens im gonna look smart :P.

[Forikroder]

Yes i did. Because it made no sense! Why would he die 2 times? No. He has to die in a way that makes it infeasible to ressurect him. Just like when Roy died and team was separated. Do you understand? They will res him if they can, because he is an asset and they need to kill Xykon. Only way he dies normal way is if he dies in the final battle, provided he does something really bad on the way. The way he acts now, they would res him anyway.

your STILL ignoring what im saying, to kill Belkar and vampirise him for only a temporary power boost would cheapen every character who has died or will die, and completely removes all emotional wieght from Durkons death and reanimation


He does understand enought to tell what is raise dead and what level spell it is. You keep saying he's too dumb i say he is not. We ll never reach consensus, so just stop. Also - you are not the one who decides what is out of character, me niether.

And Malack said the possible trigger pretty much aloud.

it doesnt matter if he understands what raise dead is, he doesnt understand the rest of the plan well enough to come up with your plan and Malack mumbled the possible trigger word under his breath

Belkar is as dumb as a rock, and thats insulting the rock theres now ay he could come up with such a complicated plan


I explained it earlier. The staff doesnt give effect to the person carring it

and you have NO WAY of knowing this Durkon has been using it like a weapon, it could be a quarterstaff enchanted with protection from daylight and some homebrewed spellstoring


1. They stopped shooting volleys, becasue they'd kill they're own men.

oh like Tarquin cares, they havent stopped shooting they stopped hitting


2. They have concealment now. If Belkar will not do it someone alse will (e.g. dominated soldiers)

the soldiers are getting killed as fast as there getting turned if Durkon stops making more there gone before his next round so cant create the concealment


3. Did you see any malee mook hitting roy? No. Hmh, figures..

gee its almost like weve barely seen the first 2 rounds, statistically its unlikely for him to have taken a hit by now (he cant get surrounded thanks to Durkula and the meat shield so would onyl have to deal with 4 or 5 mooks at a time)

seems like his plan is working pretty well huh


Although I do agree that the homeosapiens theory will not come to pass, Belkar is not dumb. There's no proof of that.

are we reading the same comic?

[homeosapiens]

your STILL ignoring what im saying, to kill Belkar and vampirise him for only a temporary power boost would cheapen every character who has died or will die, and completely removes all emotional wieght from Durkons death and reanimation



The problem is that YOU ARE NOT NECCECEARLY RIGHT. Temporary power boost might not be temporary. Vampirised Belkar might not want to get ressurected. Durkon might want to keep him way he is. That, that he will say that he want's to be ressed doesnt mean that he ever will be - becouse we have a prophercy on the contrary.


it doesnt matter if he understands what raise dead is, he doesnt understand the rest of the plan well enough to come up with your plan and Malack mumbled the possible trigger word under his breath

Belkar is as dumb as a rock, and thats insulting the rock theres now ay he could come up with such a complicated plan


It didnt need to be mumbled. It could be "arise brother thundershield. arise and seek the blood of the living". Remember that we are not arguing wherther will it happen - we are arguing if it is possible. Not understanding after like 7 posts makes you look bad.

+ i adressed every thing you said ever - you did not



and you have NO WAY of knowing this Durkon has been using it like a weapon, it could be a quarterstaff enchanted with protection from daylight and some homebrewed spellstoring


Only armor could be enchanted with a spell like that. Not a staff. Never anywhere i saw that and also the word "hold" id used in srd for spells inside staff.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html
It also holds the spell.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html
contains obscure spells, trigger




oh like Tarquin cares, they havent stopped shooting they stopped hitting



But they care. The order was kill ones in the crater, not kill yourselves. PPeople tend to have brain.



the soldiers are getting killed as fast as there getting turned if Durkon stops making more there gone before his next round so cant create the concealment

Ok, so Elan will do it, or it will get dark - or whatever!




gee its almost like weve barely seen the first 2 rounds, statistically its unlikely for him to have taken a hit by now (he cant get surrounded thanks to Durkula and the meat shield so would onyl have to deal with 4 or 5 mooks at a time)

seems like his plan is working pretty well huh



So basically you agree, but you youst cant write that.



are we reading the same comic?

Yup.

[oonker]

are we reading the same comic?

You've been constantly bringing Belkar's stupidity up. The onus of prooving this point is yours.

The one scene you cared to show (between Haley and Belkar, after the fall of Azure City) does not proove his dumbness, merely his stuborness in regards to accepting Haley's leadership.

If you keep on insisting Belkar is


Belkar is as dumb as a rock, and thats insulting the rock

then, proove it. Your whole point of discussion with homeosapiens is around this argument. The main question that's adressed between the two of you is:

- Can Belkar come up with a plan to suggest he gets vamped?

My opinion is "Yes, he can, but won't".

EDIT:

I went to d20SRD to look for an established ground on the terms "intelligence" and "wisdom", the attribute scores that would be related to mental faculty.

"Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons."
"Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings."
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores)

I'm arguing that the comic has given us more than one evidence that he has below average Wisdom score. But below average Intelligence I'm asking you to kindly show us, because I can't seem to remember.

[homeosapiens]

Not knowing about material component to the spell is not a proof of idiocy, just saying.

[Forikroder]

The problem is that YOU ARE NOT NECCECEARLY RIGHT. Temporary power boost might not be temporary. Vampirised Belkar might not want to get ressurected. Durkon might want to keep him way he is. That, that he will say that he want's to be ressed doesnt mean that he ever will be - becouse we have a prophercy on the contrary.

1. getting vampirized doesnt fulfil the prophecy because hes still in the world, still can eat cake and can still fund his ira (and maybe even still breath)

2. BELKAR PURPOSELY DIEING AND GETTING VAMPIRIZED COMPLETELY CHEAPENS EVERYONE WHO HAS OR WILL DIE, AND REMOVES ALL EMOTIONAL WEIGHT FROM DURKONS DEATH AND REANIMATION


It didnt need to be mumbled. It could be "arise brother thundershield. arise and seek the blood of the living". Remember that we are not arguing wherther will it happen - we are arguing if it is possible. Not understanding after like 7 posts makes you look bad.

it doesnt need to not be mumbled either


+ i adressed every thing you said ever - you did not

everything i say is deserving a response some of your is not


Only armor could be enchanted with a spell like that. Not a staff. Never anywhere i saw that and also the word "hold" id used in srd for spells inside staff.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0906.html
It also holds the spell.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html
contains obscure spells, trigger


this isnt DnD rich can (and does) fudge the rules whenever he wants to so if he wants whoever holds the staff to be protected from sunlight then whoever holds the staff is protected from sunlight and relying on semantics like Malacks word choice is pretty flimsy evidence


But they care. The order was kill ones in the crater, not kill yourselves. PPeople tend to have brain.

yes and im sure there using that brain to think "i can either shoot at the ones in the crater, or become one of tarquins examples"


Ok, so Elan will do it, or it will get dark - or whatever!

Elans not there and if Elan and Haley can join up with them dealing with this army becomes fairly easy especially if the wands Haley picked up have any useful spells on them


So basically you agree, but you youst cant write that.

no i completely disagree, he hasnt been hit becuase of the human wall and Durkon, remove those 2 and he starts becoming a shish kebab


You've been constantly bringing Belkar's stupidity up. The onus of prooving this point is yours.

while im proving hes dumb, should i prove hes short? taht hes evil? that he has levels in barbarian?

why do i need to prove something thats been hammered in in every way possible?

heres a few i found by random (literally i went through the archives, picked strips at random)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0917.html

despite massive frailty wants to jump into melee just to protect his street cred

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html

actually believes Miko for a second

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html

tries to argue for a more serious coniviction, and cant understand Roys very simple plan

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html

while in the middle of a very large bandit camp (that they were sneaking into) decides to best course of action is to set it on fire attracting attention to themselves (immediately after he got explained why its a bad idea)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html

pretty much this entire strip

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html

gave up on the job offer (which he openly regrets next panel) just becuase he felt like throwing a cat at her face

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html

thinks taht Haley switched sides because she knocked out Thanh

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html

the last couple of lines of panels

[homeosapiens]

1. getting vampirized doesnt fulfil the prophecy because hes still in the world, still can eat cake and can still fund his ira (and maybe even still breath)

Not nessecairly. Easyly broken.
1. Not long for this world might mean "living Belkar", not "vampire Belkar". Different entity.
2. eat cake.
Undead Type
Undead are once-living creatures animated by spiritual or supernatural forces.

Features
An undead creature has the following features.

12-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to ½ total Hit Dice (as wizard).
Good Will saves.
Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.
Traits
An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

3. How can he get old when beeing a Vampire? He can't - thats why he shouldnt bother funding I.R.A.



2. BELKAR PURPOSELY DIEING AND GETTING VAMPIRIZED COMPLETELY CHEAPENS EVERYONE WHO HAS OR WILL DIE, AND REMOVES ALL EMOTIONAL WEIGHT FROM DURKONS DEATH AND REANIMATION

It does not. Noone ever wanted Durkon to become evil and a vampire. I was supposed to be dramatic. This would be too. In a different way. Durkon sacrificed himself for other members not to get vamped/dominated. Belkar would sacrifice himself too, and it would be even greater thing to do because he never used to care about anyone but himself.


it doesnt need to not be mumbled either


Same way anything anybody ever said didnt need to be not mumbled. But we have evidence on the contrary - Durkon mumbling in Clifford - the text is smaller.


everything i say is deserving a response some of your is not


That is so kind of you.


this isnt DnD rich can (and does) fudge the rules whenever he wants to so if he wants whoever holds the staff to be protected from sunlight then whoever holds the staff is protected from sunlight and relying on semantics like Malacks word choice is pretty flimsy evidence

Still my point of view is classic, more probable, and geekery think this way.


yes and im sure there using that brain to think "i can either shoot at the ones in the crater, or become one of tarquins examples"

They might become example for shooting their own too.


Elans not there and if Elan and Haley can join up with them dealing with this army becomes fairly easy especially if the wands Haley picked up have any useful spells on them

And that's probably going to happen.


no i completely disagree, he hasnt been hit becuase of the human wall and Durkon, remove those 2 and he starts becoming a shish kebab

Human wall is around Belkar only.


while im proving hes dumb, should i prove hes short? taht hes evil? that he has levels in barbarian?

Im smarter than you are. Why should i provide evidence. I just am. Cool?

You dont have to prove things everybody agrees on - same as in court. In this topic you say hes dumb - two people say he's not. That's not a situation in which everybody agrees - that's why you need to prove things. Try to persuade someone into thinking the way you are by resoning with him/her.


why do i need to prove something thats been hammered in in every way possible?
It has not been hammered in any way. B. did act stupid on occasions because he wanted to or it was funny. There is no evidence ever that he is in fact stupid.

[Forikroder]

1. Not long for this world might mean "living Belkar", not "vampire Belkar". Different entity.

not differnt entity, same entiry


3. How can he get old when beeing a Vampire? He can't - thats why he shouldnt bother funding I.R.A.

thats the exact opposite, the longer you live the better is to fund an IRA since you have more time for it to start building up

he may not "get old" but he would want to retire


It does not. Noone ever wanted Durkon to become evil and a vampire. I was supposed to be dramatic. This would be too. In a different way. Durkon sacrificed himself for other members not to get vamped/dominated. Belkar would sacrifice himself too, and it would be even greater thing to do because he never used to care about anyone but himself.

when Durkon got vampirized there was build up, there was emotion there was lots of stuff happinging to show that what was happening was IMPORTANT a BIG event

to ahve Belkar just get offed and then reanimated low energy like taht would make all the time spent on Durkons seem pointless


Still my point of view is classic, more probable, and geekery think this way.

the "classic" point of view or the "geekery" is the least likely way Rich goes


They might become example for shooting their own too.

no way in hell, Tarquin wants people to follow his orders to the best of there ability not let emotions of loyaltys (to toher people) make them not


And that's probably going to happen.

so theres no reason for your plan


Human wall is around Belkar only.

its guarding Roys flank


You dont have to prove things everybody agrees on - same as in court. In this topic you say hes dumb - two people say he's not. That's not a situation in which everybody agrees - that's why you need to prove things. Try to persuade someone into thinking the way you are by resoning with him/her.

check the last page i posted a few strips

actually ill just includde them here with a couple more for good measuer

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0917.html

despite massive frailty wants to jump into melee just to protect his street cred

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html

actually believes Miko for a second

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html

tries to argue for a more serious coniviction, and cant understand Roys very simple plan

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html

while in the middle of a very large bandit camp (that they were sneaking into) decides to best course of action is to set it on fire attracting attention to themselves (immediately after he got explained why its a bad idea)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html

pretty much this entire strip

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html

gave up on the job offer (which he openly regrets next panel) just becuase he felt like throwing a cat at her face

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html

thinks taht Haley switched sides because she knocked out Thanh

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html

the last couple of lines of panels

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html

panel 8 onwards

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html

killing the Oracle for such stupid reason

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html

this one i think deserves a special mention

[homeosapiens]

I have no idea why am i talking to a wall for so long :)


not differnt entity, same entiry

The same way zombie is the same as before. Mortal Belkar would be dead(no longer for this world). Vampire Belkar is undead - different creature type. Does not eat - savior next birthday cake", does not breathe "draw last breath".

Your claim has no value what so ever. Ever Malack says that he was a different person when he was alive.



thats the exact opposite, the longer you live the better is to fund an IRA since you have more time for it to start building up

he may not "get old" but he would want to retire


Sure, lets get immortality to retire. Stay in home and smoke a pipe. Thats creazy interesting and i guess and Belkar ever wanted to do with immortality.



when Durkon got vampirized there was build up, there was emotion there was lots of stuff happinging to show that what was happening was IMPORTANT a BIG event

to ahve Belkar just get offed and then reanimated low energy like taht would make all the time spent on Durkons seem pointless

Who the hell ever said it wouldn't be dramatic? You! Noone alse. Who said there wouldn't be build up?

Also other option. Durkon might do it against B. will. We have yet to see him doing something evil. that would be something and he could explain it to Roy by: "he was evil anyway, and i just saved all of us"




the "classic" point of view or the "geekery" is the least likely way Rich goes


Yes. Because you say so.


no way in hell, Tarquin wants people to follow his orders to the best of there ability not let emotions of loyaltys (to toher people) make them not



Ans how is killing much more of his men than damagin heroes(if damaging at all) following his orders? This is tactically bad for them. 1 arrow does nothing to Durkon or slights Roy by doing neglible damage like 1-2%. Durkon might still have potions. 1 arrow kills 1 lv mook 50% of the time. Second arrow kills mook almost 80% of the time( not out of the hat). So they actually can kill this army by themselves much faster then oots. Why would they help oots? That was not the order Tarquin gave.




so theres no reason for your plan


Maybe.



its guarding Roys flank



Thats actually bad. He can kill less people this way.



check the last page i posted a few strips

actually ill just includde them here with a couple more for good measuer

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0917.html

despite massive frailty wants to jump into melee just to protect his street cred

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html

actually believes Miko for a second

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html

tries to argue for a more serious coniviction, and cant understand Roys very simple plan

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html

while in the middle of a very large bandit camp (that they were sneaking into) decides to best course of action is to set it on fire attracting attention to themselves (immediately after he got explained why its a bad idea)

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html

pretty much this entire strip

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html

gave up on the job offer (which he openly regrets next panel) just becuase he felt like throwing a cat at her face

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html

thinks taht Haley switched sides because she knocked out Thanh

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0533.html

the last couple of lines of panels

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0539.html

panel 8 onwards

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html

killing the Oracle for such stupid reason

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html

this one i think deserves a special mention

He's just posing. He is the foil and comic relief. He explicly says to Roy that he tells jokes for a living in this comic. If you can't see that there in no hope for you.

But:
1. He devised Indiana Jones escape.
2. He killed kobold without using weapons while running for his life.
3. He immidietelly figured Haley killed Crystal.
4. Mindflyer saw him as Taco, not diet coke.
5. He can count, knows multiplication.
6. Prepared a smart ambush for Miko - with manequin and stuff.
7. He survived in city took down by enemy for months.
8. He devises a strategy to kill many hobgoblins, that most people probably wouldnt have (eye of fear and fire).

[Forikroder]

The same way zombie is the same as before. Mortal Belkar would be dead(no longer for this world). Vampire Belkar is undead - different creature type. Does not eat - savior next birthday cake", does not breathe "draw last breath".

Your claim has no value what so ever. Ever Malack says that he was a different person when he was alive.

Zombies and Vampires are completely different

Vampire Belkar is still in this world,and can still fund his IRA

the Oracle was not talking about Belkar becoming and undead

Vampire Malacka nd living Malack WOULD have been the same if there wasnt 200 years age difference between them


Sure, lets get immortality to retire. Stay in home and smoke a pipe. Thats creazy interesting and i guess and Belkar ever wanted to do with immortality.

how about you take a look at Belkars dream world and see exactly what Belkar would want to do with retirement

also if you think living in a castle surrounded by consorts and having a gladitorial arena he can watch all day isnt Belkar go learn who Belkar is


Who the hell ever said it wouldn't be dramatic? You! Noone alse. Who said there wouldn't be build up?

because theres literally not enough time to do proper build up like this, hed have to have started already


Also other option. Durkon might do it against B. will. We have yet to see him doing something evil. that would be something and he could explain it to Roy by: "he was evil anyway, and i just saved all of us"

we jsut saw him kill Z in cold blood and summoned a demon

if he kills B here then that sends a huge message to Roy that Durkon officially cant be trusted since he just killed a party member


Yes. Because you say so.

or that thats how its been going the entire comic


Ans how is killing much more of his men than damagin heroes(if damaging at all) following his orders? This is tactically bad for them. 1 arrow does nothing to Durkon or slights Roy by doing neglible damage like 1-2%. Durkon might still have potions. 1 arrow kills 1 lv mook 50% of the time. Second arrow kills mook almost 80% of the time( not out of the hat). So they actually can kill this army by themselves much faster then oots. Why would they help oots? That was not the order Tarquin gave

Tarquin is willing to have every mook he brought with him die just to kill the OoTS


Thats actually bad. He can kill less people this way.

no its not actually bad he may kill slightly less people but he takes massivley less damage


He's just posing. He is the foil and comic relief. He explicly says to Roy that he tells jokes for a living in this comic. If you can't see that there in no hope for you.

wow seriously? seriously? your saying "hes not dumb hes just so smart hes been acting dumb the entire comic"? hes so dumb that V is convinced he doesnt actually have a brain


1. He devised Indiana Jones escape.
2. He killed kobold without using weapons while running for his life.
3. He immidietelly figured Haley killed Crystal.
4. Mindflyer saw him as Taco, not diet coke.
5. He can count, knows multiplication.
6. Prepared a smart ambush for Miko - with manequin and stuff.
7. He survived in city took down by enemy for months.
8. He devises a strategy to kill many hobgoblins, that most people probably wouldnt have (eye of fear and fire).

you dont have to be smart to figure any of that out

if he was smart he wouldnt have told the skull he was going to use it as a chamber pot making it betray him at the most inoportune moment

being able to count doesnt make you smart, just makes you not brain dead

he only survived in said city thanks to Haley and the resistance if he was by himself hed have died in a week

also anyone with a brain who had any idea at all of who crystal was would take 0.003 seconds to figure out that Haley killed crystal

[Rogar Demonblud]

Guys, just add Forikroder to your Ignore List, as so many of us have. It's easier than arguing.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Guys, just add Forikroder to your Ignore List, as so many of us have. It's easier than arguing.

Ignoring isn't a very nice thing to do to someone. There are better ways to avoid arguing; like agreeing to disagree or changing the subject to something else.

As for me, I want Evisceratus to be Resurrected and kill Belkar now that Belkar is as weak as he's ever going to be. From Belkar's huge, extreme, insane amount of kills and levels (and the fact without Roy that he would be more evil than a hypothetical offspring of Cruella De Vill and Sauron; and by the graph, continually getting worse and worse); Evisceratus will gain loads and loads of levels from one-hit-killing something way, way, way above his level.

And as Belkar dies, the ghost of Solt Lurkyurg will take him to the underworld, where he will be dogpiled by the souls of all his victims in the greatest dogpile the world has ever seen. Gods will weep and all will bow to the great dogpile. Thus Belkar will be forever remembered.

[Greatmoustache]

it's unbelievable to see how many people still go on about "belkar going vamp" since malack turned durkon. i mean if durkon wasn't vamped, belkar turnin vampire would be totaly ok (durkon being turned into a vampire is much cooler story-wise but still)

this party's the vampire slot is full. get over it already.

geez...

[Taelas]

There's no real reason why there couldn't be two vampires in OOTS. :smallconfused:

If the fact that Durkon being a vampire causes people (who have speculated for ages that Belkar's death would be turning undead) to believe that he won't turn undead, it would make Belkar becoming a vampire more of a surprise.

It's a possibility, and one which I personally think could have potential. But it's just as likely that Belkar will simply die.

[Paseo H]

Okay, those last 20 posts or so were way too much text, shouting, and numbers. Anyone care to summarize? :smallamused:

[Greatmoustache]

There's no real reason why there couldn't be two vampires in OOTS. :smallconfused:

If the fact that Durkon being a vampire causes people (who have speculated for ages that Belkar's death would be turning undead) to believe that he won't turn undead, it would make Belkar becoming a vampire more of a surprise.

It's a possibility, and one which I personally think could have potential. But it's just as likely that Belkar will simply die.
vampire belkar has potential, yes. but not as much as belkar heroicly sacrificing himself for the team and/or mr scruffy. with the whole bleeding out in some party member's arms and making bittersweet comments (like terkla) scene. (and again, vampire belkar doesn't have as much potential as durkon's vampirism.)

also, i think another vampire in the party would just cheapen durkon's transformation. (this is the main reason why i don't think belkar will be vampirised)

[dancrilis]

(this is the main reason why i don't think belkar won't be vampirised)
Assume for sake of argument you didn't intend to use a double negative there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html) than I would agree, except that the Giant has shown the ability to handle things like this without lessening impact.

[Forikroder]

Okay, those last 20 posts or so were way too much text, shouting, and numbers. Anyone care to summarize? :smallamused:

well one side thinks that Belkar is actually a very smart person and simply acting dumb in order to be funny

while i dont think that hes smart and that the reason he acts dumb because is he is dumb

[Greatmoustache]

Assume for sake of argument you didn't intend to use a double negative there (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0181.html)
oh you're right ofcourse. sorry about that. i don't normally make mistakes like that. must be the anticipation for the new strip.

thanks for pointing it out, i edited that post to prevent possible misunderstandings.

[oonker]

Forikroder, the strips you showed mainly concern the "lacks common sense" part, which is part of the Wisdom score. It is established since the strip #50 or so (when Belkar gets Owl's Wisdom to cure Elan) that he has low Wisdom. I'll concede: he is not the smartest member of the order. I'd give the title of dumbest to Elan, but on second thought, I believe that what he lacks is common sense as well. The second most stupid would be Belkar, but still on an average level. Maybe, he's below average, but not to the point "stupid as rock, and that's offensive to the rock".

But after 3 pages of arguing, I think it's better to agree to disagree, as I don't thing we'll reach a common ground, ever.

As regarding Belkar turning Vamp, I'm on your side: it would cheapen the Durkon getting Vamped proccess. I don't think it's narratively interesting to get two Vamps on the same team as well. But, of course, I trust that whatever the Giant feels like writing/drawing will work out. I've hated the strip and the author many many times during the course of the last 900 strips, to see 3~5 days later, on the next strip, that it had sense and worked better the way he did it.

[Forikroder]

Forikroder, the strips you showed mainly concern the "lacks common sense" part, which is part of the Wisdom score. It is established since the strip #50 or so (when Belkar gets Owl's Wisdom to cure Elan) that he has low Wisdom. I'll concede: he is not the smartest member of the order. I'd give the title of dumbest to Elan, but on second thought, I believe that what he lacks is common sense as well. The second most stupid would be Belkar, but still on an average level. Maybe, he's below average, but not to the point "stupid as rock, and that's offensive to the rock".

hes also been demonstrated to ahve a terrible memory and reasoning (which shows low intellect)

i cant understand why your trying to argue that Belkar isnt dumb hes definently below average intelligence

[homeosapiens]

you dont have to be smart to figure any of that out

if he was smart he wouldnt have told the skull he was going to use it as a chamber pot making it betray him at the most inoportune moment

being able to count doesnt make you smart, just makes you not brain dead

he only survived in said city thanks to Haley and the resistance if he was by himself hed have died in a week

also anyone with a brain who had any idea at all of who crystal was would take 0.003 seconds to figure out that Haley killed crystal

1. I probably wouldn't figure out most of this stuff and i am smart.
2. He just wouldn't be himself if he didn't make that comment.
3. So Elan is brain dead? No he is dumb.
4. Hell no, he'd do better without Haley actually. He'd be the head executioner and earn a lot of $. He didnt do it beacuse of his team loyalty, the comment later is just a humor/ witty response that is there to state that while loyal, he is still evil.
5. Celia did not get it. She's a sylph lawyer(lawyers are smart - i am finishing law myself within a month). Sylph's have racial +2 to intelligence. So if a 12+ int character didn't figure it out and He did. Belkar had no more idea of who Crystal is than Celia did. Haley's nemesis, personal rival.

[Forikroder]

1. I probably wouldn't figure out most of this stuff and i am smart.

maybe you should consider reconsidering that stance?

i mean when someone apears with someone elses knife, and you know the owner of that knife is both the most hated hated who had very recently tried multiple times to kill her, and saids that (despite everyone knowing Crystal hates her guts) she gave her the knife and you take that at face value...

and if your relying on something to survive and you give that something every reason to betray you...

also if you cant count...

2. He just wouldn't be himself if he didn't make that comment.

well putting your personality above STAYING ALIVE is definently something a smart person would do (BTW thats sarcasm thats something a stupid person would do)


3. So Elan is brain dead? No he is dumb.

no Elan is pretty brain dead


4. Hell no, he'd do better without Haley actually. He'd be the head executioner and earn a lot of $. He didnt do it beacuse of his team loyalty, the comment later is just a humor/ witty response that is there to state that while loyal, he is still evil.

he refuses Tsukiko's offer becuase he felt like throwing a cat in her face

that should be enough to demonstrate his ability to keep himself alive


5. Celia did not get it. She's a sylph lawyer(lawyers are smart - i am finishing law myself within a month). Sylph's have racial +2 to intelligence. So if a 12+ int character didn't figure it out and He did. Belkar had no more idea of who Crystal is than Celia did. Haley's nemesis, personal rival.

Celia is ridiculously naive and a complete idiot about anything outside law school (she thought humans could shoot lightning out of there fingers DO NOT try to make the argument Celia is smart enough to figure something like this out)

and for the love of god man quote the post your responding to