Playing a Bruiser Archtype when one loves skillpoints

[ScrambledBrains]

So...I play a lot of Skillmonkeys, I have ever since my first character, and frankly, I'm in the mood to take a break and play something much simpler along the lines of a Barbarian.

However...(And I know this is gonna sound like trying to have my cake and eat it too.), I am really hesitant to give up all the skillpoints I hold so dear and be a 'One trick, ubercharging pony', or anything like that. I want to play a guy who can take a beating like mad, and who does lose himself in a battle frenzy(In metagame terms, I wanna be an effective Melee combatant) but when the dust settles, he's not without additional tricks up his sleeves(I.E. Other things to do.).

Does the Playground have any advice for me?

For frame of reference, my character concept is a Human, with around at least 2 or 4 levels of Barbarian(I don't often multiclass, though I will if I must for this concept to work, but IF I must, I prefer to take even numbers of class levels.). Some form of good DR(I.E. Not easily penetrable) is important to me, since I want to play my character as close to unarmored with actual armor as possible(Though I will concede Light Armor if necessary.). Apart from that basis, I have no other preset conditions, and will look at anything suggested, provided I have access to the book in question.*

Also, if possible, no Tier 2 or Tier 1 classes.

*As for what books I own, most of them, but please specify if something is setting specific or 3.0 only.

Thanks in advance! :smallsmile:

[GilesTheCleric]

What level do you want to be most effective at? This changes what you might consider.

My recommendation is playing a cloistered/cleric 20. You'll really come into your own after about level 5, and you can min-max your stats to give you more skillpoints. In my PF game, I'm running a cleric with 17 int and 20 wis, for exactly that reason - more skill points. You could do the same, but have 20 str and 17 int (min 15 wis to gain spells all 20 levels).

[ScrambledBrains]

What level do you want to be most effective at? This changes what you might consider.

My recommendation is playing a cloistered/cleric 20. You'll really come into your own after about level 5, and you can min-max your stats to give you more skillpoints. In my PF game, I'm running a cleric with 17 int and 20 wis, for exactly that reason - more skill points. You could do the same, but have 20 str and 17 int (min 15 wis to gain spells all 20 levels).

I thank you for the recommendation, but I try to stick at about a Tier three class level when possible, since that's my own personal sweet spot for classes. :smallsmile:

As for level of effectiveness, I generally prefer to be at least marginally effective across all 20 levels.

[GilesTheCleric]

Ah, sorry. I was about to recommend druid 20, but that's definitely not t3.

In that case, something like a rogue 20 or ToB-class 20 would do the trick.

Edit: You could always consciously choose to play a t1 class as a t3, although it would be a bit of an exercise in self-control.

[ScrambledBrains]

Ah, sorry. I was about to recommend druid 20, but that's definitely not t3.

In that case, something like a rogue 20 or ToB-class 20 would do the trick.

Eh, Rogue 20 leaves me with cruddy hit die and no DR and while I have considered slipping some Crusader into the build somewhere, I don't think it helps the general skill points issue too much, and Swordsage has the same issues as the Rogue I mentioned.

[GilesTheCleric]

If you're an undead, then the hit die go back to good old d12s.

[Kazyan]

What about a Ranger? Use the Wildshape variant, or the Fangshield sub-levels with a Warforged or something, if setting-specific stuff is okay.

[ScrambledBrains]

If you're an undead, then the hit die go back to good old d12s.

Hmm...hadn't considered that...might be something to look into. Is there a list anywhere of ways to become Undead that don't have prohibitive LA?

[ScrambledBrains]

What about a Ranger? Use the Wildshape variant, or the Fangshield sub-levels with a Warforged or something, if setting-specific stuff is okay.

I do think Wildshape Ranger is another option...(Thanks!). As for the Fangshield and Warforged, I'll look into them.

[GilesTheCleric]

LM has a number of options - necropolitan is pretty popular, I think. There's definitely a list of LA races (other than the crystalkeep ones) - I'll take a look for one.

[ScrambledBrains]

LM has a number of options - necropolitan is pretty popular, I think. There's definitely a list of LA races (other than the crystalkeep ones) - I'll take a look for one.

Many thanks, Giles. :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

Desert Half-Orc Ranger 4/Half-Orc Paragon 3/Singh Rager* 10/XX3 is a Lawful bruiser-type that can Rage, have decent Skill points, and make good use of Intimidate for an additional "trick" in encounters.

*Singh Rager is from Oriental Adventures, and either 3.0 or requiring Dragon Magazine to update.

[limejuicepowder]

What level are you starting at? I have a build in mind that gives access to bruising and skills, but it doesn't really come in to its own until 8th.

Check it: wilderness rogue 1 swordsage 1 ranger 2 warblade 1 beast heart adept 3

This character has strong skills, with rogue, swordsage, and ranger all giving 6+ int skill points. The warblade are BHA are solid with 4+ int. Adaptability is further enhanced by warblade and swordsage maneuvers. Finally, beast heart adept gives you a Girallon for a pet, a complete beast of a companion that makes a great flanking buddy.

[GilesTheCleric]

Here's (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_2.0) all of the races, and here's (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869266/Master_Template_List) templates. Looks like Necropolitan and Vampire Lord are the only two undead templates for +0 LA, according to the list. You're welcome ^^

Edit: Someone here has pointed out to me that some of the 'races' that are broken down into class levels (eg. from SS or LM) don't require that you take all of the levels of the class. I think it's true for SS, but I'm not sure about LM. If it is, then things like ghoul, wight, and mummy open up as possibilities.

[Rubik]

How about changeling ACF rogue 1/crusader 1/factotum 8/chameleon 10? The level in rogue grants you 40 skill points just on base skill points alone (and you can take 10 on quite a few skills). Crusader will give you self-healing and some nice maneuvers, factotum will give you bonuses to everything, and chameleon will let you melee nicely, as well as cast spells and do more skillishness.

[Fax Celestis]

cruddy hit die

The size of your HD actually matters very little in the long run. Expected difference in HP between a rogue and ranger, equally leveled, is about 1HP/HD. Buy an item of +2 CON or take Improved Toughness and voila, you have recouped your HP.

[Coidzor]

I thank you for the recommendation, but I try to stick at about a Tier three class level when possible, since that's my own personal sweet spot for classes. :smallsmile:

As for level of effectiveness, I generally prefer to be at least marginally effective across all 20 levels.

Wildshape Ranger could work, ish, though master of many forms doesn't really do skillpoints very well.

[Fable Wright]

Personally, I like Duskblades. They have Knowledges, and at least at low levels, things like Fae Bloodline (Dragon Compendium) and Fascinating/Deceptive illumination give them some good utility spells. (Silent Image as a no-components SLA for concentration +3 rounds 6/day is amazing in the out of combat department. Add in a Ring of Silent Spellcasting and Swift Invisibility, and you can stealth with the best of the rogues.) If you're going through to high levels, something like Piggy Knowles's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286800) build (add in two Flaws for Deceptive Illumination early Fey Bloodline, take KD at 3rd and Power Attack instead of Mother Cyst and the issues with the build are resolved). As for durability? Pick up an Amulet of Tears at low levels, and at high levels, you're Full Attack Channeling Vampiric Touch. (While the temp HP don't stack, that means essentially you're rolling half your levels in d6s per iterative, taking the best set, and gaining that many temp HP. Allowing, of course, for breaks in which you do something far sillier, like Full Attack Channeling Otto's Irresistible Dance so you don't need the HP boost for 1d4 rounds.)

[Piggy Knowles]

For a skillful bruiser, I'd probably just go straight warblade. Seriously, it's kind of hard to beat - decent skills and good reason to boost intelligence, and you can play a total barbarian-style character by focusing on Iron Heart, Tiger Claw and even some Stone Dragon maneuvers (the latter do tend to give DR, which you mentioned being a big deal).

[Fyermind]

All of the ToB classes to this fairly well. Crusader is the least tricky of them, and swordsage the most. They all have access to utility skills and maneuvers.

Further, Barbarian 2 is a great dip for all of them picking up whirling frenzy, pounce, and improved trip. Most of them have the levels they get stuff at all screwy so taking a dip in something else of two to four levels helps a lot.

Example: The angry PitA.
Swordsage 1 / Barbarian 2 / Fighter 2 / Swordsage +X
Maneuvers from Setting Sun and Tiger claw emphasized
The idea is to get trip and bullrush to be very powerful and useful. This build uses the barbarian dip I mentioned above and the dungeoncrashing fighter ACF from dungeonscape. It requests knockback and large size or being a goliath, but gets along fine without it if you can bullrush a prone target down. It even makes in game sense that you would knock someone over and slam them into the ground or hit them even harder when they were down.

Your noncombat tricks will come from maneuvers useful outside of combat and your reasonably large number of skill points. You will get decent HP in those early levels from barbarian and fighter. Beyond that you can probably afford some +con items. You will have extra AC because of Swordsage and whirling frenzy, which should help you in being a melee brute. If you are really worried, you can delay swordsage until 2nd level and take barbarian first and third instead. That works fine too, but is a less skillfull character for a long time and only a little tougher by second level.

[JaronK]

I'd go with Factotum 8/Warblade X. Plenty of Int synergy, plenty of skillpoints, and if you go heavy into Tiger Claw you get plenty of savage fury.

JaronK

[ScrambledBrains]

@Everyone: Wow...thanks for all the ideas, everyone! This is why I love this forum, people have so many ideas for just one concept...

As for what I'm gonna go with, I'm stuck between two of the suggested concepts(Well, one of the suggested concepts, and a reworked version of another that I made as I looked over it.). The one I'm thinking of maybe taking wholesale is the one suggested by DM of Darkness, since I haven't used a Duskblade before, and it might be worth looking into(Though, since I usually play good characters, I might need to rework the suggested build a teensy bit. :smallbiggrin:)

The other one is basically a combination of the Changling Rogue build suggested by Rubik, and the PitA build suggested by Fyermind. Something like...

Changling Rogue 1/Barbarian 2/Warblade 2/Chameleon 10/???. Any thoughts on how this looks?

And also, I do have a question-How does a Changling qualify for either Able Learner or Chameleon? By RAW, only Humans or Dopplegangers can explicitly take either, or so it looks to me.

[Rubik]

And also, I do have a question-How does a Changling qualify for either Able Learner or Chameleon? By RAW, only Humans or Dopplegangers can explicitly take either, or so it looks to me.The text in the changeling entry says that changelings are of mixed ancestry between doppelgangers and humans. If they can't qualify for Able Learner I'll eat my hat.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC there is also a mention in the Chameleon entry that opens it to Changelings if you are playing on Eberron.

[Rubik]

Three of the remaining five levels should be factotum. If you want skills, they've got them, and taking Able Learner means you get all skills as class skills. Three levels also gets you +Int to all Str and Dex checks, including trips, bull-rushes, skill checks, and Initiative.

I'd suggest fighter for the last two levels, if only for dungeoncrasher.

[ScrambledBrains]

IIRC there is also a mention in the Chameleon entry that opens it to Changelings if you are playing on Eberron.

You are correct, Dusk. :smallsmile:


Three of the remaining five levels should be factotum. If you want skills, they've got them, and taking Able Learner means you get all skills as class skills. Three levels also gets you +Int to all Str and Dex checks, including trips, bull-rushes, skill checks, and Initiative.

I'd suggest fighter for the last two levels, if only for dungeoncrasher.

Eh...I'm kinda burned out on Factotum. As far as getting skills goes, it's a bit of the 'Easy' mode, so to speak. Any other suggestions, or should I just fill it out with 5 levels of Warblade?

[Rubik]

Play around with psionics and go war mind? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) It won't do much for your skills, but you'll have some nice powers at your disposal (and sweeping strike).

[Grod_The_Giant]

Totemist. It's an impressively nasty natural weapon bruiser (or archer, with Manticore Belt). With a d8 HD and a focus on Con, they can get plenty of health-- especially if they take Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt). And you have access to tons of melds that offer you skill bonuses.

Take a 1-level dip in Incarnate and you shape (if not bind) all of the Incarnate melds as well-- you'll be able to pick up pretty sizable bonuses to just about any skill you want. (A second level will let you bind the first few chakras, too).

[Rubik]

Totemist. It's an impressively nasty natural weapon bruiser (or archer, with Manticore Belt). With a d8 HD and a focus on Con, they can get plenty of health-- especially if they take Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt). And you have access to tons of melds that offer you skill bonuses.

Take a 1-level dip in Incarnate and you shape (if not bind) all of the Incarnate melds as well-- you'll be able to pick up pretty sizable bonuses to just about any skill you want. (A second level will let you bind the first few chakras, too).Totemist 2/incarnate 2/psychic warrior 1? The psywar dip will net you Expansion, which is really nice. Otherwise, a dip into another ToB class would net you additional maneuvers and stances.

[ScrambledBrains]

Totemist. It's an impressively nasty natural weapon bruiser (or archer, with Manticore Belt). With a d8 HD and a focus on Con, they can get plenty of health-- especially if they take Shape Soulmeld (Vitality Belt). And you have access to tons of melds that offer you skill bonuses.

Take a 1-level dip in Incarnate and you shape (if not bind) all of the Incarnate melds as well-- you'll be able to pick up pretty sizable bonuses to just about any skill you want. (A second level will let you bind the first few chakras, too).

Hmmm...I have been wanting to get a better handle on how Incarnium works. And I do like the sound of that. Just need to study and get a handle on Incarnium then... :smallwink: