I finally get it.

[Haroth_Lawbane]

I finally get it. Tarquin isn't Lawful Evil!

He's Lawful Dramatic!

It's so obvious!

[Scow2]

No. He's definitely Evil.

[KillianHawkeye]

He's Lawful/Evil/Dramatic! :smallbiggrin:

[Paisley]

Or Dramatic Evil, seeing as his lawfulness basically amounts to conforming to narrative structure.

[Haroth_Lawbane]

No I beg to differ. He isn't evil.. not at the core. It is just the role he was dealt which also happens to be the best role to enforce a stern and rigid narrative/dramatic structure to the rest of the world.

He adheres to Narrative Rules as hard as a Paladin follows Laws of Good.

Hence Lawful Dramatic.

He isn't evil in the sense that he does what he does for evil's sake. He does it because this is how he views the world, as a Drama. And everyone else will too!

[Synesthesy]

Simply the law Tarquin follow is the law of Drama. So he is LawDrama Evil.

[oppyu]

Dramawful Evil?

Personally I think of him as being OOTS' second example of Lawful Crazy.

[Bulldog Psion]

Dramatic Lawful Crazy Evil, or Dralacravil for short. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: sounds like a cold medication. :smallwink:

[crayzz]

No I beg to differ. He isn't evil.. not at the core. It is just the role he was dealt which also happens to be the best role to enforce a stern and rigid narrative/dramatic structure to the rest of the world.


He chose his role.

[Secris]

No I beg to differ. He isn't evil.. not at the core. It is just the role he was dealt which also happens to be the best role to enforce a stern and rigid narrative/dramatic structure to the rest of the world.

He adheres to Narrative Rules as hard as a Paladin follows Laws of Good.

Hence Lawful Dramatic.

He isn't evil in the sense that he does what he does for evil's sake. He does it because this is how he views the world, as a Drama. And everyone else will too!

He doesn't do it for evil's sake, just for his role? Maybe if his evil acts only involved the last 10 strips you could argue that. Hell, I'll even give you the ruling with an iron fist bit. But he doesn't need to rape and force women to marry him and then kill them when he gets bored with them. That doesn't serve the narrative in any significant way. His marriage to Elan's mother and to Penelope are the only ones the matter, but he's on, what wife 9? He was plenty evil without all of that.

[Math_Mage]

No I beg to differ. He isn't evil.. not at the core. It is just the role he was dealt which also happens to be the best role to enforce a stern and rigid narrative/dramatic structure to the rest of the world.

He adheres to Narrative Rules as hard as a Paladin follows Laws of Good.

Hence Lawful Dramatic.

He isn't evil in the sense that he does what he does for evil's sake. He does it because this is how he views the world, as a Drama. And everyone else will too!
Do not confuse Evil with For Teh Evulz. Tarquin is Evil. Does he need to spell it out for you in 200-foot tall flaming letters?

[sims796]

Lawful Dumbass at this point.

[NerdyKris]

Dramatic Lawful Crazy Evil, or Dralacravil for short. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: sounds like a cold medication. :smallwink:

I object to the idea that Tarquin is crazy. Full of himself, yes. Narcissistic, definitely. He believes that because he knows the rules of plot that he is better than and smarter than everyone else. That he can manipulate that for his own personal gain. He wants to push Elan to succeed, and he views Roy, Durkon, and Belkar as disposable. That's not crazy, just being a jerk.

And note that he does NOT know what the gates actually are. He says so right in today's strip that he thinks Xykon is a b-list villain that's barely worth Elan's time. He's not crazy for thinking that. Nobody has told him what the risks actually are. He's just, once again, thinking he is the center of Elan's story instead of Xykon. That's not crazy, just egotistical.


Lawful Dumbass at this point.

How? He has no idea what happens if Xykon gets the gates. He doesn't know about the Snarl, or unmaking reality. He thinks this is yet another world conquering macguffin that can be dealt with whenever. That's not dumb. That's acting on misinformation and being full of himself.

[rewinn]

Dramatic Lawful Crazy Evil, or Dralacravil for short. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: sounds like a cold medication. :smallwink:

He can carry an enormous reserve of drama around, enabling him to survive when others perish for lack of drama, because like Roy, he's half-camel.

Specifically, half-Dramadary.

[sims796]

How? He has no idea what happens if Xykon gets the gates. He doesn't know about the Snarl, or unmaking reality. He thinks this is yet another world conquering macguffin that can be dealt with whenever. That's not dumb. That's acting on misinformation and being full of himself.

I'd consider egotistically acting on admitted misinformation pretty dumb. Holding on to that "it's a story" loooong after those jokes ran dry makes in pretty dumb in a sense.

He also knows about both the Snarl and the results; Nale told him everything. As Elan spelt it out for him, he knows the fate of the world is at stake. And he's doing all of this because he's trying way to hard to do some fourth wall noticin' humor. Get over yourself, dumbass [Tarquin, mind you].

But meh, I called him a dumbass 'cause he felt like one to me, nothing deeper than that.

[Ridureyu]

No I beg to differ. He isn't evil.. not at the core.


Because setting slaves on fire as a party decoration is a Good act, everybody knows that!

[Domino Quartz]

I'd consider egotistically acting on admitted misinformation pretty dumb.


How do you know it's admitted misinformation?

[sims796]

How do you know it's admitted misinformation?


I'm sorry, I didn't mean "misinformation", I meant "admitted lack of info". He uh...he can't admit to info being false if he isn't aware of it being false:smalltongue:

[WindStruck]

In comes a 3rd dimension to the alignment spectrum:

Dramatic! vs mundane

[137beth]

Virtually all of his "lawfulness" is just him adhering to narrative structure. He is Dramatic Evil.

[Aolbain]

No I beg to differ. He isn't evil.. not at the core. It is just the role he was dealt which also happens to be the best role to enforce a stern and rigid narrative/dramatic structure to the rest of the world.

He adheres to Narrative Rules as hard as a Paladin follows Laws of Good.

Hence Lawful Dramatic.

He isn't evil in the sense that he does what he does for evil's sake. He does it because this is how he views the world, as a Drama. And everyone else will too!

So he isn't evil the same way a paladin isn't Good?

[Trillium]

So he isn't evil the same way a paladin isn't Good?

Well, Miko wasn't Good because she liked doing, you know, good.
She was just following paladin codex.

In same way Tarq may be not inherently evil, but rather unprincipled and totally absorbed by his dramatic role.

[BlackGrail]

Well, Miko wasn't Good because she liked doing, you know, good.
She was just following paladin codex.

In same way Tarq may be not inherently evil, but rather unprincipled and totally absorbed by his dramatic role.

So, what, Tarquin is also following just some (prestige) class codex? Maybe he is in fact a Knackguard...

[Trillium]

So, what, Tarquin is also following just some (prestige) class codex? Maybe he is in fact a Knackguard...

Not prestige class codex. Just his love for procedure and rules of the genre. Codex doesn't have to be written down.

[Coat]

That's not the question.

Question is, if this really is Tarquin's chosen narrative role, and that's what he's all about, why isn't he spending more time twirling his moustaches, and chuckling evilly?

And honestly, would it kill him to tie Haley to some magical train tracks? Come ON people...

[BlackGrail]

Not prestige class codex. Just his love for procedure and rules of the genre. Codex doesn't have to be written down.

That was a bad attempt at joke on my part.

EDIT::smallbiggrin:

[Klear]

(...) But he doesn't need to rape and force women to marry him and then kill them when he gets bored with them. That doesn't serve the narrative in any significant way. (...)

Of course it does! It perfectly illustrates what kind of monster he is and why he needs to be taken down!

[phobiandarkmoon]

He can carry an enormous reserve of drama around, enabling him to survive when others perish for lack of drama, because like Roy, he's half-camel.

Specifically, half-Dramadary.

I tip my hat to you, sir.

[Secris]

Of course it does! It perfectly illustrates what kind of monster he is and why he needs to be taken down!

That is already illustrated in more plot-centric manners such as gladiatorial fights to the death for minor (if any) crimes, building his palace with slaves, burning said slaves alive as a form of decoration, framing pardoned "criminals" for murder and treason, attacking the OotS because he doesn't want Roy to be the leader and generally ruling the nation with an +5 iron fist of ***hattery.

I'm not saying Rich shouldn't have written those things, it does continue to show what a psychopath he is, but that's not just Tarquin following the dramatic rules, as the person I quoted said. Tarquin doesn't have to face forced marriages/sexual slavery just to play his role look villainous, he's doing just fine without that.

Tarquin is simply the scum of the earth. Sure, Xykon may be a mad-with-power lich who is bent on world and possibly universal domination, but at least he when he revels in his murderous evil schemes and slaughter of innocents, he doesn't take a side quest to create a brothel full of kidnapped slaves to do his bidding.

And yes, I did just imply Tarquin is more despicable than Xykon.

[Trillium]

That is already illustrated in more plot-centric manners such as gladiatorial fights to the death for minor (if any) crimes, building his palace with slaves, burning said slaves alive as a form of decoration, framing pardoned "criminals" for murder and treason, attacking the OotS because he doesn't want Roy to be the leader and generally ruling the nation with an +5 iron fist of ***hattery.

I'm not saying Rich shouldn't have written those things, it does continue to show what a psychopath he is, but that's not just Tarquin following the dramatic rules, as the person I quoted said. Tarquin doesn't have to face forced marriages/sexual slavery just to play his role look villainous, he's doing just fine without that.

Tarquin is simply the scum of the earth. Sure, Xykon may be a mad-with-power lich who is bent on world and possibly universal domination, but at least he when he revels in his murderous evil schemes and slaughter of innocents, he doesn't take a side quest to create a brothel full of kidnapped slaves to do his bidding.

And yes, I did just imply Tarquin is more despicable than Xykon.

That's arguable. A brothel of slaves (Tarq) is better than a mass-grave of slaves (Xykon). Tarq's mass murder at least serve some purpose, as opposed to Xyk's.

Also, his forced marriages serve one purpose. His brides-to-be have their own storylines, which include marrying a dashing warlord. They just fail to accept it and he forces them to follow their storylines, just as he does with Elan =)

[BlackGrail]

Tarquin is simply the scum of the earth. Sure, Xykon may be a mad-with-power lich who is bent on world and possibly universal domination, but at least he when he revels in his murderous evil schemes and slaughter of innocents, he doesn't take a side quest to create a brothel full of kidnapped slaves to do his bidding.

Probably because he doesn't have necessary organs for that anymore. In SoD, it was pretty much implied he was doing something along those lines when he was younger and, ahem, more lively.


And yes, I did just imply Tarquin is more despicable than Xykon.

You know, this reminds me of something George Martin said in an interview long ago. Can't find his exact words, but it was something along the line: write a detailed, bloody description of a sword bashing someone's skull and you'll be applauded for superb and realistic writing. Write an equally detailed description of a penis bashing someone's vagina and your text will be censored as despicable and offensive.

[Roland Itiative]

If Tarquin wasn't evil, he would act in a completely different way. He wouldn't set slaves on fire just to commemorate the return of his son, and enjoy that, for one. He's Lawful Evil, with his "lawfulness" coming from a code that just happens to be the "laws of drama".

[Scow2]

Well, Miko wasn't Good because she liked doing, you know, good.
She was just following paladin codex.

In same way Tarq may be not inherently evil, but rather unprincipled and totally absorbed by his dramatic role.

And the reason Miko followed the Paladin Codex was because she wanted to. The path of a Paladin is a difficult thing to follow, and only those who's hearts, bodies, and minds are up to the task accept it.

[Trillium]

And the reason Miko followed the Paladin Codex was because she wanted to. The path of a Paladin is a difficult thing to follow, and only those who's hearts, bodies, and minds are up to the task accept it.

Well, she basically had the codex beaten into her head. She was raised, first as a monk, then as a paladin. She just doesn't understand there can be any other way (other than to be Smitten).

And from from point of kindness, morals, and all other good qualities she loses even to Redcloak =|

[BlackGrail]

And the reason Miko followed the Paladin Codex was because she wanted to. The path of a Paladin is a difficult thing to follow, and only those who's hearts, bodies, and minds are up to the task accept it.

Not quite sure she wanted it, as much as it was forced upon her. I remeber her saying to Shoyo how he handpicked her out as a child but she didn't want to go and in fact cried the first nigth, before bein convinced she is there to do what gods have chosen her to do. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) That actually makes a helluva sense of her character.

Tarquin, on the other hands, pretty much wants what he is doing. Wants it really bad!

[Maryring]

This thread helped me realise one thing.

Tarquin... is a Drama Lawma.

... *flees into hiding*

[rgrekejin]

He isn't evil in the sense that he does what he does for evil's sake. He does it because this is how he views the world, as a Drama. And everyone else will too!

Virtually no one is Evil for Evil's sake (Xykon being possibly a very noteworthy exception). Redcloak certainly isn't. Just because someone has a reason for being Evil (even a Good Reason) doesn't make them any less Evil.


Virtually all of his "lawfulness" is just him adhering to narrative structure. He is Dramatic Evil.

Not really. In his speech in this most recent comic (917) he talks about the need for some kind of Order in the world - be it personal, political, or dramatic. The fact that Tarquin is willing to admit the other two forms as valid seems to indicate that he values Order in general more than Dramatic Order in particular.

[Tock Zipporah]

Dramatic Lawful Crazy Evil, or Dralacravil for short. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: sounds like a cold medication. :smallwink:

Now I want to see a drug commercial for this: "Warning, side effects may include megalomania, delusions of grandeur, and the urge to launch into a speech outlining the details of your evil schemes."

[malloyd]

But he doesn't need to rape and force women to marry him and then kill them when he gets bored with them.

Is there any evidence he does that? After all V killed the wife we know died of mysterious causes, and he didn't bother to kill Elan's mother (does she *still* not have a name). It's not like he can't obtain a divorce just by ordering his clerks to file the paperwork.

For all we know he could divorce his ex-wives, enslave them, and sell them to the highest bidder rather than kill them.

[hamishspence]

There's the flashback scene here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html

and since he says "some of my previous wives" that implies he's done it more than once.

EDIT: Now I see what question you're asking- there's nothing in that strip to say he's killed any of his previous wives, true.

[Amphiox]

And the reason Miko followed the Paladin Codex was because she wanted to. The path of a Paladin is a difficult thing to follow, and only those who's hearts, bodies, and minds are up to the task accept it.

Miko is an example of someone who accepted it without realizing that her heart and mind were NOT up to the task of it....

[Eric Tolle]

Is there any evidence he does that?

Using violence or coercion to force an unwilling person into sexual relations is pretty much a textbook definition of rape. I dislike even the term "ex wife" as that gives the act too much legitimacy.

As for killing them, given his tendency to tie up loose ends abd general proclivities, the burden of proof is on the Tarquin apologists. I speculate that the main reason that Elan's mother survived is twofold: 1) She gave Tarquin heirs, and 2) she used the law against him, by adding for divorce.

But really, the fact that he's a rapist should be enough to put him firmly in the "Evil" category, without any excuses like drama.




]

[hamishspence]

I speculate that the main reason that Elan's mother survived is twofold: 1) She gave Tarquin heirs, and 2) she used the law against him, by adding for divorce.

This strip suggests that it was him divorcing her:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html

[Scow2]

Miko is an example of someone who accepted it without realizing that her heart and mind were NOT up to the task of it....

She had the conviction needed. All she needed was a bit more recognition that she could be wrong.

[DiamondHooHaMan]

That's arguable. A brothel of slaves (Tarq) is better than a mass-grave of slaves (Xykon). Tarq's mass murder at least serve some purpose, as opposed to Xyk's.

it solved no purpose whatsoever! Elan didn't like it!

[Exediron]

But really, the fact that he's a rapist should be enough to put him firmly in the "Evil" category, without any excuses like drama.

This attitude never ceases to amaze me - traumatizing and ruining one person's life is evil, no question, but when people put rape above (particularly brutal and cruel, in this case) mass murder it starts to send an odd and skewed message. More despicable? Debatable. More evil? No.

All that aside, his unethical sexual practices do actually serve a dramatic purpose - as posts such as the recent ones in this thread demonstrate, some people will always be willing to make apologies for very nearly any evil act you can name - but not rape. Now, I'm not saying Rich deliberately made that decision to hammer home the point that Tarquin is unquestionably evil (I think other, more evil, actions were intended for that effect), but as a component of his character it does serve to make him pretty much universally unsympathetic.

[Mike Havran]

As for killing them, given his tendency to tie up loose ends abd general proclivities, the burden of proof is on the Tarquin apologists. Why?

Having a wife and then "divorce" with her, e.g. suggest her to get away from him as soon and as far as possible, is the perfect way of creating an unwanted son who will eventually rise from the filthy environment he was born into in order to become an epic hero who opposes the corrupt father in a climactic story.

Ms Tarquin I had both guts and two sons, that's why Tarq called the lawyers.

[F.Harr]

I finally get it. Tarquin isn't Lawful Evil!

He's Lawful Dramatic!

It's so obvious!

HA! I love it! :D