Wiz/Sorc with different casting stat

[Story]

So in a game I'm about to join, everyone is encouraged to play casters. One houserule caught my eye though - Wizards and Sorcerors are allowed to pick Int, Wis, or Cha as their primary stat (though Int still determines spells known at level 1 for Wizards). Clerics can choose Int or Wis.

Also, ToB, ToM, MoI and EPH are banned. Also familiars don't give any bonus unless you take a special feat, have a bigger penalty if they die, and you aren't allowed to trade away familiars.

The DM said that any PRC outside of those books is allowed, though I'm sure anything perceived as particularly abusive will get banned. Also non-PHB races and base classes require case by case approval. Druid is still allowed unmodified so either the DM is expecting mostly tier1s or is clueless about balance.

Anyway, I was wondering if there was anything particularly strange or unusual this enables that you couldn't normally do? I was thinking about doing Wiza/Sorc Ultimate Magus assuming UM is allowed, but I was curious if anyone had better ideas.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It'd make theurge builds a little easier, I guess, but MAD was never the biggest problem with those. Makes Sorcerers a bit better too, by letting them use a better casting stat.

[HunterOfJello]

Ultimate Magus is a trap. Early entry into Mystic Theurge will give you a stronger character.


I would end up playing some sort of Intelligence based sorcerer purely because i love skill points and spontaneous casting.

[Platymus Pus]

So in a game I'm about to join, everyone is encouraged to play casters. One houserule caught my eye though - Wizards and Sorcerors are allowed to pick Int, Wis, or Cha as their primary stat (though Int still determines spells known at level 1 for Wizards). Clerics can choose Int or Wis.

Also, ToB, ToM, MoI and EPH are banned. Also familiars don't give any bonus unless you take a special feat, have a bigger penalty if they die, and you aren't allowed to trade away familiars.

The DM said that any PRC outside of those books is allowed, though I'm sure anything perceived as particularly abusive will get banned. Also non-PHB races and base classes require case by case approval. Druid is still allowed unmodified so either the DM is expecting mostly tier1s or is clueless about balance.

Anyway, I was wondering if there was anything particularly strange or unusual this enables that you couldn't normally do? I was thinking about doing Wiza/Sorc Ultimate Magus assuming UM is allowed, but I was curious if anyone had better ideas.

If you are allowed to multiclass I'm sure you can really break things then.

[Daebu]

Some nice flexibility afforded. I'd be careful about your familiar, though. It sounds like the DM has purposefully set up a situation where your familiars are going to be a semi-serious liability. You have two options: dedicate some resources to keep it safe, or buff it up.

Have you thought of running an Arcane Hierophant? You get (almost) all the goodness of a Druid and an arcane caster. And now your sorc/wizard can even run off of the same casting stat? Nice! The two typical builds: Druid4/Arcane3/AH10/Druid+3, or Druid3/Arcane3/MT2/AH10/MT+2.

This takes that liability and makes it an incredibly strong partner. If run with bloodlines, you lose even less. If you run with a Sorcerer, I'd make it a Kobold. Not necessarily for lots of ridiculous cheese. Rather instead for the greater draconic rite of passage. Strong? Yes. But it's rather obvious that's precisely what WotC intended, and being on more equal footing with a Wizard isn't such a bad thing.

[eggynack]

I'm sure there are some occasions where another stat would be desired, but mostly it seems like the end result is intelligence for everybody. Intelligence just tends to be the most intrinsically useful mental stat. So, I guess this just means skill points for everyone. If you're able to go cloistered cleric, that'd be a pretty crazy number of skill points right there.

[Vaz]

For your familiar, take Improved Familiar at 9th level, and get a Mirror Mephit. It's not particularly brilliant, but you get a Simulacrum as an SLA (CL8). Improve its CL such as by an Orange Ioun Stone, and you're golden.

I houserule it still requires a piece of the target, but by rAW, you don't. Efreeti Simulacrums, here we come.

[Gwendol]

Does this include other casting classes such as bard or paladin? That may allow for some fun builds.

[PersonMan]

Also familiars don't give any bonus unless you take a special feat, have a bigger penalty if they die, and you aren't allowed to trade away familiars.

Luckily the familiar class feature doesn't force you to get one (you need to pay 100 gold to get it, so it's not even possible for a lot of level 1s) so you can say 'neat, but doesn't affect me' if you don't want one.

[Firechanter]

+1 to the PersonMan. Nobody can force you to get a familiar in the first place, even if you can't trade it for an ACF. I'd just leave it and use my feats on more useful things.

A Cleric based on Int could get more out of her skills. Knowledge Devotion says hello.

Ultimate Magus ain't half bad, you just need to fiddle with your Caster Levels so that your Wizard spellcasting doesn't fall behind. The key is to take Practiced Spellcaster at the right moment to give your Sorc progression a higher CL. In the end, your Wizard casting will be only one or two levels behind, while you have a substantial Sorc progression on top of that.

Actually, Switzerland-level amounts of Cheese are possible with UM. For instance, Spontaneous Divination grants you the ability to spontaneously cast 1st level Arcane spells, so you could technically qualify without _having_ a Spont class, but that would defeat the purpose of many class features. But you can take a Spont PrC on top that only starts their progression at level 4 or so, like Nar Demonbinder. This is actually perfect for UM since NDB level stacks with Wizard for caster level. So it's even easier to keep your Wizard spellcasting maxed out.
So if you can take Nar Demonbinder (a 3.0 class from Unapproachable East) and switch its casting stat to Int, you can go to town.

[Eldariel]

So if you can take Nar Demonbinder (a 3.0 class from Unapproachable East) and switch its casting stat to Int, you can go to town.

UE is really 3.45 or so; it uses 3.5 DR rules, skills & co. The only thing "not" 3.5 in it is that it was released before the official launch.

[Snowbluff]

Ultimate Magus is a trap. Early entry into Mystic Theurge will give you a stronger character.


Actually, Theurge type classes that give actual class features and potential full casting can not be bad. The class is full of hand CL and metamagic cost reduction. Since it gives actual class abilities, it doesn't suffer from being 10 levels wasted from action economy problems, like the Mystic Theurge.

[Psyren]

Actually, Theurge type classes that give actual class features and potential full casting can not be bad. The class is full of hand CL and metamagic cost reduction. Since it gives actual class abilities, it doesn't suffer from being 10 levels wasted from action economy problems, like the Mystic Theurge.

Agreed - UM isn't really a "theurge" per se, it's a way to turn the spells from your second class into a sacrificial powerup for the metamagic of your primary.

Though your caster level in the secondary can get high enough to be useful for some instances.

[Story]

Speaking of which, what would good spells to pick be? I figure Nerveskitter is nice since you always want it available and it isn't stat or CL dependent. Wings of Cover is obvious since Wizards don't get it. But other then that, I have no idea.

[Snowbluff]

Agreed - UM isn't really a "theurge" per se, it's a way to turn the spells from your second class into a sacrificial powerup for the metamagic of your primary.

Though your caster level in the secondary can get high enough to be useful for some instances.
I agree to an extent. I do think that it's more useful for the other abilities, but it's a damn good way for a Wizard who banned Enchantment and Illusion (since they can be hard countered) to keep the spells around through a Beguiler dip, while giving himself an overall boost to CL. :smallwink: