Shield fighting queries

[justiceforall]

Hi guys, looking at a potential shield fighting style character for a 1st - 8th level character, no ToB/UA/DragonMag.

The build is not supposed to entirely fixate on shield fighting, but to have it there as add-on. I've read PersonMans guide to shields in general, but a few things are still unclear to me so I thought I'd start this thread instead of getting in trouble for trying thread-necromancy on something that was last posted about in 2009.

So, questions, some for rules understanding, some for effect:


Shield Bash Attacks

You can bash an opponent with a light shield or heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.

1. If I am holding a large shield, and I *only* attack with that shield, it's a primary attack with a one handed weapon? RAW seems to disagree because somehow its still an offhand weapon? :S

2. If I use TWF to attack with both a shield and another weapon, does the shield *have* to be treated as the offhand weapon? How would this interact with using a light weapon in the other hand in terms of TWF penalties?


Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose, requires a move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or loose a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.

3. Does this include "getting out the shield" in the first place? Eg: taking it off your back/wherever it was stored? Or is getting it into your hand in the first place a separate action.


A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.

4. Can you hold an item in a hand with a small shield strapped to it, and still shield-bash with it?

Shield Charge/Shield Slam

5. Are these feats any good? Trip seems generally useful, but shield slam seems like it has a very weak fort save?

[Galvin]

1. Aye. You always wear your shield strapped to your off hand. If your wearing a shield on your favored hand, then it's a different story.

2. Once again, normally, you wear your shield on your off hand, in which case you would have to treat it as your off hand. If for some odd reason you are holding your sword in your off hand and your shield in your favored hand, then once again, it's a different story.

3. Aye.

4. With a Light Shield or Buckler, yes. With a Heavy Shield, no.

5. Normally focusing on your shield bash attacks is a bad idea. The only worthwhile shield feats are Shield Specialization and Shield Ward.

[Greenish]

1. Aye. You always wear your shield strapped to your off hand. If your wearing a shield on your favored hand, then it's a different story.

2. Once again, normally, you wear your shield on your off hand, in which case you would have to treat it as your off hand. If for some odd reason you are holding your sword in your off hand and your shield in your favored hand, then once again, it's a different story.These things, they bear no resemblance to actual rules.

Normally, you do not have an offhand unless you get extra attacks from TWF. Shield bash entry is sadly poorly written, so yeah, by strict RAW, you can only use it as an offhand, but many agree that it's not meant to be a limitation, the writers just didn't consider anyone using a shield as the main weapon.


4. With a Light Shield or Buckler, yes. With a Heavy Shield, no.Can't bash with a buckler, though.


5. Normally focusing on your shield bash attacks is a bad idea. The only worthwhile shield feats are Shield Specialization and Shield Ward.That's a matter of opinion. Shield Slam has fairly decent save DC, and evil rider effect. And of course, you still get the attack, and the free trip attempt, and if you have Imp. Trip, potentially another attack.

[DR27]

That's a matter of opinion. Shield Slam has fairly decent save DC, and evil rider effect. And of course, you still get the attack, and the free trip attempt, and if you have Imp. Trip, potentially another attack.This. Look at JaronK's Shield Build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1532.0;wap2) for ideas (you'll need to find alternatives to crusader levels, maybe Dungeoncrasher?), although I personally find it stupid to eschew ToB when you are trying to make a decent shield wielder - Devoted Spirit has real potential for being a great sword and board fighter.

[Darrin]

1. If I am holding a large shield, and I *only* attack with that shield, it's a primary attack with a one handed weapon? RAW seems to disagree because somehow its still an offhand weapon? :S


From the PHB/SRD:

"Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon." (emphasis added)

This isn't clear by RAW, but "can" in this context is optional, not absolute. What's puzzling is we don't know if "can" in this case means that you normally can't attack with shields as a primary attack, and this is an exception to a more general rule, or if this means that otherwise attacking with a shield bash and no other weapon is normally a primary attack, as it would be with any other weapon.

Anyway, this mostly boils down to a DM's Call, but I've never run into any DM that insists you can't shield bash as a primary attack.



2. If I use TWF to attack with both a shield and another weapon, does the shield *have* to be treated as the offhand weapon? How would this interact with using a light weapon in the other hand in terms of TWF penalties?


PHB p. 143 says, "If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first." So by RAW (assuming you've worked out point #1 earlier), if you have a melee weapon in one hand and a shield in the other, you could attack with the shield first, and declare that your primary weapon and your other weapon to be offhand.

If the heavy shield is primary and you've got something light like a dagger in your other hand, then you're golden: -2 primary/-2 offhand (with the TWF feat).

If the heavy shield is offhand, then not so good: -4 primary/-4 offhand.

If you take Agile Shield Fighter *instead* of TWF, then the penalties from Agile Shield Fighter supercede the typical TWF penalties, and you get -2 primary/-2 offhand regardless of whether the shield is light or heavy. This allows you wield a heavy shield as if it were a light offhand weapon for TWF, but still treat it as a one-handed weapon for things like Power Attack (you could even grip it two-handed if need be, and use armor spikes/unarmed strike as your offhand).



3. Does this include "getting out the shield" in the first place? Eg: taking it off your back/wherever it was stored? Or is getting it into your hand in the first place a separate action.


I've never really seen a PC stow a shield before. For some reason they all walk around fully armed as if expecting to get attacked at any moment (and this happens often enough to feel reasonably justified about it).

But if you want to be technical about it, readying or loosing a shield is a move action. Mechanically, it's the same as drawing a weapon, so if your BAB is at least +1, you can combine this with a typical move action.



4. Can you hold an item in a hand with a small shield strapped to it, and still shield-bash with it?


Yes, so long as the item held in your hand is not a weapon.



Shield Charge/Shield Slam

5. Are these feats any good? Trip seems generally useful, but shield slam seems like it has a very weak fort save?

Shield Charge is good, free trip with no real downside.

Edit: Shield Slam is also good, but only if you're charging with Pounce (Ex) or are only making a single iterative attack anyway. Shield Slam is a waste of a feat, not necessarily because of the Fort save but because it requires a full-round action to use. You're probably better off just making a full attack, because "dead" is a much better condition for your enemies than "dazed". In fact, I'm more than a little annoyed that this feat calls out constructs, plants, undead, and incorporeal creatures as immune to being dazed, as if this refers to a general rule that doesn't exist anywhere else in the rules. Outside of Shield Slam, all those creature types can be dazed like any other creature.

[justiceforall]

although I personally find it stupid to eschew ToB

Useful commentary. I'll tell my GM he's stupid and see how that goes over shall I?


Normally, you do not have an offhand unless you get extra attacks from TWF. Shield bash entry is sadly poorly written, so yeah, by strict RAW, you can only use it as an offhand, but many agree that it's not meant to be a limitation, the writers just didn't consider anyone using a shield as the main weapon.

Someone in PersonMan's thread indicated this was somewhat covered in an FAQ, but didn't provide a link. Does anyone have any idea where I can find the entry they are (potentially) referring to?

[Greenish]

Shield Slam is a waste of a feat, not necessarily because of the Fort save but because it requires a full-round action to use.Ah, full-round action or a charge action. Combines well with other charge stuff (like, say, Shield Charge).

[justiceforall]

I've never really seen a PC stow a shield before. For some reason they all walk around fully armed as if expecting to get attacked at any moment (and this happens often enough to feel reasonably justified about it).

We run around low level dungeonhacks a lot. Light sources need to be held in hands, so this thing comes up a lot more frequently for my group than it would in more general DnD groups I imagine?


If you take Agile Shield Fighter *instead* of TWF, then the penalties from Agile Shield Fighter supercede the typical TWF penalties, and you get -2 primary/-2 offhand regardless of whether the shield is light or heavy. This allows you wield a heavy shield as if it were a light weapon, but still get Power Attack damage as if it were a one-handed weapon.

Yes I was aware of this, but trying to avoid Agile Shield Fighter as it needs two feats instead of one (TWF I could get via the Ranger class, amongst other things).


Shield Slam is a waste of a feat, not necessarily because of the Fort save but because it requires a full-round action to use. You're probably better off just making a full attack, because "dead" is a much better condition for your enemies than "dazed".

Doesn't it just stack on the charge though (which is the only place Shield Charge activates anyway)? Wouldn't that make it roughly equivalent in usefulness to Shield Charge?


In fact, I'm more than a little annoyed that this feat calls out constructs, plants, undead, and incorporeal creatures as immune to being dazed, as if this refers to a general rule that doesn't exist anywhere else in the rules. Outside of Shield Slam, all those creature types can be dazed like any other creature.

Is daze listed as a mind-affecting effect? If it is, there is your restriction.

[Darrin]

Ah, full-round action or a charge action. Combines well with other charge stuff (like, say, Shield Charge).

Yes, but if you're charging and not pouncing, then you're probably doing it wrong.

Or... have I completely misjudged this feat? Can Pounce (Ex) work with Shield Slam?

[justiceforall]

Yes, but if you're charging and not pouncing, then you're probably doing it wrong.

See OP - 1st - 8th level. I'd only be getting the iterative attack right at the end, so maximising pounce is not too high on my list of priorities.

[Darrin]

Is daze listed as a mind-affecting effect? If it is, there is your restriction.

Only when cast as a spell. When rendered via other means, there's no indication that it's mind-affecting.

[Greenish]

Yes, but if you're charging and not pouncing, then you're probably doing it wrong.

Or... have I completely misjudged this feat? Can Pounce (Ex) work with Shield Slam?Why not? It says "…as a charge action, you may make an attack with your shield against an opponent", and you can do that with Pounce.

[justiceforall]

Only when cast as a spell. When rendered via other means, there's no indication that it's mind-affecting.

You are indeed correct. From the SRD:


Dazed

The creature is unable to act normally. A dazed creature can take no actions, but has no penalty to AC.

A dazed condition typically lasts 1 round.

[Pickford]

These things, they bear no resemblance to actual rules.

Normally, you do not have an offhand unless you get extra attacks from TWF. Shield bash entry is sadly poorly written, so yeah, by strict RAW, you can only use it as an offhand, but many agree that it's not meant to be a limitation, the writers just didn't consider anyone using a shield as the main weapon.

Can't bash with a buckler, though.

That's a matter of opinion. Shield Slam has fairly decent save DC, and evil rider effect. And of course, you still get the attack, and the free trip attempt, and if you have Imp. Trip, potentially another attack.

If you bash with a shield, it's always an off-hand attack, which carries specific rules. That you didn't bother to use a mainhand weapon is irrelevant.

[Darrin]

Why not? It says "…as a charge action, you may make an attack with your shield against an opponent", and you can do that with Pounce.

Alrighty then. Nevermind what I said: good feat with Pounce, or if you only have one iterative attack.


If you bash with a shield, it's always an off-hand attack, which carries specific rules. That you didn't bother to use a mainhand weapon is irrelevant.

"Can" is not absolute. The option to bash as an offhand attack does not automatically preclude bashing as a primary attack. There's no other indication from the designers that bashing as a primary would be illegal. A shield is treated as a martial bludgeoning weapon everywhere else in the rules, why would it suddenly stop working as a primary weapon?

[justiceforall]

If you bash with a shield, it's always an off-hand attack, which carries specific rules.

Can you please post a link or a quote of said rules?

[DR27]

Useful commentary. I'll tell my GM he's stupid and see how that goes over shall I?Wasn't pretending it was useful. The link I provided however, is whether or not you use ToB. It is good advice however to point out if the only banned books in 3.5 are ToB/UA, that he's restricting melees more than casters for precious little reason. Without that, saying that you've "read the handbooks, what else is there?" - there aren't really any other shield options without ToB, and therefore little advice to give beyond rules clarification.


Naturally, opinions on the Tome of Battle vary widely. Martial adepts have a style of play far removed from the standard martial character in Third Edition. But I’ve found that Tome of Battle greatly enriches the playing experience at my table, for two reasons:

- It makes melee characters fun to play. Some people enjoy endlessly repeating their full attack routine, but many want something more. Tome of Battle provides melee combatants a wide array of new options and tactics, as well as the ability to make tactical decisions more meaningful than simply how much they'll Power Attack for.

- It levels the playing field. Around here it’s an oft-recited saying that fighters scale linearly, while wizards scale quadratically. Tome of Battle by no means closes that gap, but it unquestionably narrows it.This is really true

[Gwendol]

These things, they bear no resemblance to actual rules.

Normally, you do not have an offhand unless you get extra attacks from TWF. Shield bash entry is sadly poorly written, so yeah, by strict RAW, you can only use it as an offhand, but many agree that it's not meant to be a limitation, the writers just didn't consider anyone using a shield as the main weapon.


The bolded text is simply not true. You always have an off-hand when dual wielding (though "hand" can designate other means of wielding weapons like a bootblade, mouthpick, etc). This means that when using a shield for offense either it or the weapon wielded will have to be designated the off-hand weapon (dealing 1/2 STR damage, etc). You may change this designation from round to round if you want.
To prove my point, simply look at the description for a double weapon such as the Urgrosh or hooked hammer:

Hammer, Gnome Hooked
A gnome hooked hammer is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. The hammer’s blunt head is a bludgeoning weapon that deals 1d6 points of damage (crit ×3). Its hook is a piercing weapon that deals 1d4 points of damage (crit ×4). You can use either head as the primary weapon. The other head is the offhand weapon. A creature wielding a gnome hooked hammer in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

[TuggyNE]

To prove my point, simply look at the description for a double weapon such as the Urgrosh or hooked hammer:

Aaand those rules only come into play if you're using TWF (with or without the feat), and therefore only if you're gaining extra attacks therefrom.

Not to derail the thread with that old argument, but I'm not seeing anything new here.

[Pickford]

Alrighty then. Nevermind what I said: good feat with Pounce, or if you only have one iterative attack.



"Can" is not absolute. The option to bash as an offhand attack does not automatically preclude bashing as a primary attack. There's no other indication from the designers that bashing as a primary would be illegal. A shield is treated as a martial bludgeoning weapon everywhere else in the rules, why would it suddenly stop working as a primary weapon?

Actually in a game where doing anything is only determined by what rules 'are' given it 'is' an absolute.

There are 'many' examples of the game text using the word 'can' in such a fashion.

edit: Justiceforall, yes. Here's the SRD20 web page information.

Off-Hand Weapon

When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only ½ your Strength bonus.

Shield Bash Attacks

You can bash an opponent with a light shield or heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

edit2: Gwendol, the rules for shield bashing mean that it must 'always' be the off-hand.

[Gwendol]

No, this is the weapon description. Note that it says
fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons not "using TWF rules to gain an extra attack" or something similar, just fighting with two weapons.

For a double weapon, one end is the primary weapon, while the other is the off-hand. The rules are very clear on this point with no wiggle room.

So, for shield bashing, TWF rules apply for full attacks using both weapons.

Edit: Pickford, I know but I find the rule to be silly enough to be ignored :smallsmile:

[TuggyNE]

No, this is the weapon description. Note that it says not "using TWF rules to gain an extra attack" or something similar, just fighting with two weapons.

Fighting with two weapons, yes, which either a) uses the TWF rules or b) is irrelevant. I'll agree to disagree on whether TWF penalties apply when not gaining the bonus; all I care about here is the point that it uses the same rules, exactly the same rules in all ways, as fighting with a one-handed and light weapon.

[Gwendol]

I'm sorry, but your last post I can't follow. Could you please explain it a little more?

[TuggyNE]

I'm sorry, but your last post I can't follow. Could you please explain it a little more?

Basically, that double weapons (and shields, and so on) take penalties under the same circumstances as one-handed+light weapons. Nothing more.

[Gwendol]

Ah, well yes of course. Unless you use them 1-handed, or just use the one end (2-handed).

[Synchaoz]

So... what if I strap a heavy shield to my main hand and a light shield to my off-hand, and then pick the Agile Shield Fighter feat. What happens then, double shield attacks?



I don't understand why a shield can't act as a primary attack. I'm pretty sure if I strap a shield to my primary fighting arm, I'll still be able to swing it just as well as if it were on my off-hand.

I'm currently making an ogre shield fighter, and I want him to use his heavy shield as his primary attack, because with a large heavy shield, Shield Spec. and a bashing enchantment, that puppy deals 3d6 damage plus full strength modifier in my main hand. Then pile on all the other feats, like shield charge, imp. trip, shield slam agile warrior etc. that guy is a pretty terrifing monster with high AC, high damage, high trip modifier AND daze attacks.

[Pickford]

So... what if I strap a heavy shield to my main hand and a light shield to my off-hand, and then pick the Agile Shield Fighter feat. What happens then, double shield attacks?



I don't understand why a shield can't act as a primary attack. I'm pretty sure if I strap a shield to my primary fighting arm, I'll still be able to swing it just as well as if it were on my off-hand.

I'm currently making an ogre shield fighter, and I want him to use his heavy shield as his primary attack, because with a large heavy shield, Shield Spec. and a bashing enchantment, that puppy deals 3d6 damage plus full strength modifier in my main hand. Then pile on all the other feats, like shield charge, imp. trip, shield slam agile warrior etc. that guy is a pretty terrifing monster with high AC, high damage, high trip modifier AND daze attacks.

Given that the shield isn't actually a weapon, but only can be used as a weapon you can't use one of them.