Gestalt Swordsage Advice

[Vattic]

Hi everyone! I've come to really respect the forum's advice when it comes to character builds and so I've got another challenge for you all.

I'm entering into a pathfinder game where we are allowed many amazing things. For one, we can use any pathfinder, 3.5, first second or third party material. Second, our stat generation is awesome. It's essentially 4d6 drop the lowest 7 times, drop the lowest, turn the next lowest into an 18 if you haven't rolled one already.

1 extra feat at first level, and just about any race allowed, oh, and by the way, we get to gestalt as well.

Finally, my friend is going to run the Legacy of Fire campaign, and I want to create something fun for once. I have a habit of making dour combat pragmatists, incredibly lethal rogues, or flesh rending cultists. But this time I'd like to cut loose with a fun loving martial artist type. Not knowing much about the campaign, and not really caring, honestly, I'd like to make a character that combines a few of my favorite things.

Jackie Chan's excellent Drunken Master (yes, the old one), Disney's Aladdin, Killik from Soul Caliber, Robin Hood, Bugs Bunny, Sun Wukong, Raven, etc..

The concept for this fella is that he is a homeless beggar and vagrant, he appears easily dismissible, but he fights with passion and sudden inspiration when the cause is just. Essentially a grubby, street level trickster character who is fast and agile, clever and tough. One who looks out for others, even when it doesn't really make sense for him. Despite his quasi-noble motivations, he is somewhat egotistical and stubborn, eager to jump first and loathe to eat crow.

In terms of mechanics, I'm very seriously considering Unarmed Swordsage and Cleric, or Unarmed SS + Oracle, or Unarmed SS + Warblade?

This is where I NEED YOUR HELP.

Playgrounders! Please help me bring this fellow to life! I'm open to humans, vanarans, Tieflings.. uh.. other stuff that fits.

I've generated stats, they are pretty rad, and I'm able to move them around as needed. In no particular order:

16
16
16
11
9
18

What I need from you are class and feat combo advice, stances, maneuvers, progressions etc. We start at level one, but the plan is to finish the entire Legacy of Fire campaign which I am led to understand stops just a few levels short of 20th.

Please help me flesh this out, I will be eternally grateful. In return, I can promise terrible fan art and hackneyed writing glorifying this character in which I praise your contributions!

[Azoth]

unarmed swordasage//wujen see if your budy will let you use Kung Fu Genius to switch Swordsage abilities from Wis to Int. Focus on Setting Sun throw maneuvers for offense with Diamond Mind Counters and splish splash of Shadow Hands Etheral Jaunt/stride/blink maneuvers, Stone Dragon's Mountain Hammer, and some low level boosts from Desert Wind.

Go for a minor trip build while picking up adaptive style (required swordsage tax). I also recommend INA and Snap Kick.

That should get you full nimble Kung Fu master style and Son Goku style mystical abilities.

[Fax Celestis]

Unarmed Swordsage//Dungeoncrasher Fighter, focusing on Stone Dragon and Setting Sun, could be pretty awesome. Run around the battlefield, shove people into things, judo, etc. etc.

Bonus points if you have access to Book of Experimental Might and can take Running Circles: if you start in a monster's threat, you don't provoke for movement from that creature this turn.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Start out as a Goliath (or Water Orc Half-Minotaur if you can get away with it), the +1 LA will take up an entire character level but you're going to buy it off (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) so later on it costs you nothing. You'll find in PGtF page 190 Powerful Races at 1st Level, which involves taking a -1 penalty to all d20 rolls and all DCs as well as -1 to any racial AC bonuses until you hit 2nd level, at which time you'll spend a level on that +1 LA to remove those penalties. At your 3rd level feat get Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm), and you'll get an immediate 10% bonus to all current and future XP, plus invest skill points for huge bonuses. Since you gained a level adjustment at ECL 2 you need to hit ECL 5 (+3 levels) before buying it off, which will cost 4,000 xp. From that point you'll be lower level than the rest of the party and thus gain more xp per encounter, plus the 10% bonus on top of that, so you'll quickly catch back up to the party level. Throw on Unseelie Fey (winter aspect) for extra cheese.

For classes, go Unarmed Swordsage 5/ War Hulk 10/ Unarmed Swordsage 5// Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1. You'll be using the Dungeoncrasher ACF, Zhentarim Soldier (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) sub levels, and free bonuses (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) for Fighter, plus trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) whenever you would get it. Considering those four levels of Fighter//War Hulk you may want to use the Thug variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug).

Feats will be Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knock-Back, and the Weapon Focus/Specialization tree all the way up to Weapon Supremacy at 20th with your Fighter 10 bonus feat. Be sure to get Imperious Command and the Never Outnumbered skill trick, and pick up Dreadful Wrath at 1st if possible. Put max ranks in Intimidate and Tumble, and you can actually max out Hide and Move Silently which with your Item Familiar invested skill ranks nobody will ever be able to find you, especially if you get Darkstalker and a Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. Improved Trip for Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) is highly recommended, and of course get Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Attack. You'll still get your Wis bonus to AC in light armor, you can TWF with unarmed strikes plus the Mongoose maneuvers, every hit knocks back and dungeoncrashes the target and you'll hit everyone in reach with every attack thanks to War Hulk.

[Vattic]

Thanks for the advice folks! I'm not willing to go goliath or water orc, or minotaur, it strays too far from my concept of the character. But I really do appreciate the well thought out and in depth response.

I'll look into these different abilities that you all have mentioned and see how they interact and if they fit. The optimization level of the party is probably pretty low, but the DM is my main concern. I know he's going to go megalomaniacal on our asses because he is a consistent power gamer as a player. I want the character to kick much booty and be insanely climby, jumpy, fast and agile. If extreme strength can fit alongside this stuff, I'm all ears. But my priority is to make a devastating unarmed fighter that is hard to hit and full of tricks.

[Hunter Noventa]

Take a look at the Pathfinder Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife). I ran a Soulknife//Swordsage build and it was pretty effective, and the Soulknife has even more options now than they used to before.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am going to recommend warblade on the other side. Yes, double initiator levels, but 1d12 HD and a better refresh mechanism works wonders with the awesome swordsage versatility.

[Turion]

Take a look at the Pathfinder Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife). I ran a Soulknife//Swordsage build and it was pretty effective, and the Soulknife has even more options now than they used to before.

And on that note, Deamscarred Press is currently playtesting the Stalker (http://dreamscarredpress.com/dragonfly/ForumsPro/viewtopic/p=35484.html), which is their Swordsage analogue for Pathfinder. It is still in alpha testing, though, so it may(probably) have some kinks to work out, as well as some revisions down the road. The lead designer seems really good with feedback/questions, though, and he's active here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296871) and on the DsP and Paizo forums as well.

(I'm drooling at the idea of a gestalt Stalker/Deadly Fist Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/deadly-fist), by the way. Sounds like it may fit with your base concept pretty well, too.)

[Hunter Noventa]

(I'm drooling at the idea of a gestalt Stalker/Deadly Fist Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/deadly-fist), by the way. Sounds like it may fit wilt your base concept pretty well, too.)

That's basically what I did, except it didn't exist yet. My DM is awesome and let me add weapons to the Shadow Hand list, and coutned Gauntlets as an Unarmed strike.

When i got Throw Mind Blade, I wasn't able to keep myself from screaming 'ROCKET PUNCH!'

[Nightraiderx]

well if you want to be closer to the son goku stich there is a +0 anthropomorphic monkey race in savage species get's a good boost to wisdom.
You can definately probably pull it off with a gestalt swordsage/pathfinder soulfist.

[Turion]

Furious Scribe discipline: Wall of Forthcoming Discourse

I just noticed something: if you do go with the Deadly Fist, there's nothing to stop you from taking the Emulate Melee Weapon blade skill and shaping your weapon into a staff or something of the kind. (I could also see a Jian or Butterfly swords working, as well.) You wouldn't be ably to flurry with it, as that explicitly only works with unarmed strikes, but it would add to the image.

For that matter, I think the Alter Blade skill would let you shape any of the standard blades in addition to the empowered fist.

Also, since 3.5 material is on the table, I'd definitely recommend Superior Unarmed strike, and probably Snap Kick as well.

Martial maneuvers combo pretty well with the Psionic Fist chain + Psionic Meditation, as does Psychic Strike. Move action to gain focus, swift to charge strike, standard to activate a maneuver. Unavoidable Strike is nice for dealing with high-AC enemies, and could get interesting with Avalanche of Blades.

Alternatively, Deadly Fist can be combined with Gifted Blade (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife/archetypes/dreamscarred-press/gifted-blade) (WIS based manifesting), which opens up some interesting possibilities with Hustle, among other things. If you go this route, don't forget about the Psionic feats in ToB.

Vanaran would work pretty well as a race, by the way. Human is techinically a better choice, (bonus feat, flexible ability boost, nice favored class bonuses) but it's not a big difference in the long run. Tiefling isn't quite as good though; INT is a tertiary stat for Swordsages at best. Xeph also fits well with the speedy acrobat theme. Their stat adjustments aren't great, but they have the Boost ability to gain some extra speed, which also helps with acrobatics checks. They're also the iconic soulknife.

[Vattic]

I'm really liking the soulknife/deadly fist angle, but I'm afraid that I don't have a solid understanding of the class and it's mechanics. I'm studying up on it now, hopefully it will all make sense soon. The stalker is a neat idea as well, I'm going to see what I can find.

Question: if I take one level of warblade does that suffice to allow me to use the refresh mechanic in place of the sword sage one? I'm still fairly new to the Tome of Battle.

Thanks again for all of the great suggestions guys!

[Greenish]

I'm really liking the soulknife/deadly fist angle, but I'm afraid that I don't have a solid understanding of the class and it's mechanics. I'm studying up on it now, hopefully it will all make sense soon. The stalker is a neat idea as well, I'm going to see what I can find.Soulknife is, in the end, rather simple. It isn't even a psionic class other than technically (or if you take Gifted Blade), so all you need to know are the basic class features and a handful of blade whatsimacallits.


Question: if I take one level of warblade does that suffice to allow me to use the refresh mechanic in place of the sword sage one?No, you'd have separate maneuver progressions, and could only use the warblade recovery to recover your warblade maneuvers.

[Vattic]

No, you'd have separate maneuver progressions, and could only use the warblade recovery to recover your warblade maneuvers.

Sadface. Thanks for crushing my dreams, Greenish!

Turion, is there any possibility that you could propose a build sometime? I know it's asking a lot, but I'd love to see it if you could.

[Turion]

Psyren has a guide to the Soulknife (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203014) that does a decent job explaining it; he also covers the Deadly Fist. Note that his remarks on the low damage are somewhat mitigated if you have access to Superior Unarmed Strike, and the Agile property can help as well.

To answer your question: you would only be able to use the Warblade's recovery mechanism for maneuvers learned as a Warblade. As an example, Swordsage 4/Warblade 2.

You would have 9 maneuvers known through Swordsage (from the appropriate schools), going up to 2nd level maneuvers (3rd if you space them out with the Warblade levels), with a Swordsage initiator level of 5 (4 from SS + 1/2 other classes). These would have to be refreshed using the SS mechanism, or, preferably, by taking Adaptive Style and changing them all out at once.

You would have 4 maneuvers known through Warblade, going up to 2nd level maneuvers (if you take them last), with a Warblade initiator level of 4 (2 from Warblade + 1/2 from other classes). These three maneuvers can be refreshed with the Warblade mechanism, or, again, by using Adaptive Style.

Aaand I've been partially 'saged. Knew that was going to happen.

Edit: I'll see what I can do. I don't have access to most of my 3.5 stuff at the moment, so I can't look over Swordsage, but I'll try to put something together after dinner. Would you prefer limited manifesting or bonus damage?
Double edit: also, you are using the typical PF feat progression and skills, correct? I'll feel very silly if I run out of feats...

[Vattic]

Edit: I'll see what I can do. I don't have access to most of my 3.5 stuff at the moment, so I can't look over Swordsage, but I'll try to put something together after dinner. Would you prefer limited manifesting or bonus damage?
Double edit: also, you are using the typical PF feat progression and skills, correct? I'll feel very silly if I run out of feats...
We are using the typical PF progression, but the with one extra bonus feat at level one (even if I roll human, which I'm leaning towards). As far as manifesting or damage, I'm not sure. I could see either one being very helpful. I'm tending towards bonus damage though as the other players in the group tend to play talkers and thinkers as opposed to thumpers. Extra thumping seems useful.

Thank you for all of your aid! You are a gentleman and a scholar.

I'm also very interested int Fax Celestis' build, it sounded neat. Stone dragon and such seems sort of appropriate.