[3.5] Creating my first cleric

[aapje]

I am joining my first D&D game and I was wondering about what kind of character to build.
The books being used are PHB, SC, MM, MIC and DMG.

I was thinking of maybe creating a cleric of Fharlanghn with the travel and luck domains.
Is that a solid choice?

Also what would be good picks for race/skills/feats?

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, here is the handbook (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=420.0). That should be a good starting place.

Your domains look good, and any race without a wisdom or cha penalty will work fine (though you can take a cha hit if needed, say for a strength boost)

Recommended out of core are Human, gnome, halfling, and half-orc or dwarf. Humans are baseline good, halflings and gnomes are small, and a half orc trades turn undead ability for better ability to hit things with sticks (a skill not to be underestimated). Dwarves are just tough.

[aapje]

Thanks for the link! I'll be sure to check that out.

How can a half-orc trade his turn undead for a hit bonus?

[GreenSerpent]

Thanks for the link! I'll be sure to check that out.

How can a half-orc trade his turn undead for a hit bonus?

Lower CHA (less turn attempts), higher STR (more pain on hitting things.)

[Gwendol]

Can't go wrong with dwarf. You will likely wear heavy armor anyway, and so the 20' movement is of little concern. Darkvision, and various other bonuses will come in handy.

Your choice of domains are very good, at what level will you start play?

Recommended feats include: power attack, quicken spell, extend spell.

[GilesTheCleric]

Everyone's suggestions so far are great. I'm also very impressed by your choice of domains.

I've got a recent post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15895671&postcount=13) about feats and skills, although with your available books, you might ignore the feats section.

[Firechanter]

It's probably a substitution level in some book or other. I wouldn't worry about it. Go Team Human.
That guide is very good, but keep in mind you don't have to pull _all_ the strings described here to create an excellent Cleric.

So, just to be clear... you have no access to CC and CD? That's a bit of a pity, as there's some really great material in those books. So, you're practically Core-Only + SC.

In that case, I'd focus on spellcasting and metamagic, and possibly item creation. Extend Spell is useful, and maybe Quicken Spell when you get to higher levels.

As for general feats, don't bother about crap feats like Weapon Focus. Power Attack only if you use a two-handed weapon. Verily, there is very little worthwhile in Core wrt general feats.

Also, don't bother with Turning. Turn Undead is a great ability when you use splatbooks, because you can use those turn attempts to fuel all kind of awesome abilities. Nobody uses TU to actually turn undead. So just ignore this, which also means you don't really need any Cha. (So, yes, you can also be a Dwarf and be none the worse off)

What's important to understand, and I can't stress this enough, is that you are NOT the party's healbot. You do NOT drop your spells to heal a few measly points of damage if you can in any way help it. Rather have the party pool some gold to buy Wands of Cure Light Wounds, which you can then apply as necessary. (Also, everyone should get a Healing Belt, saves on charges.)

[aapje]

Thanks for all the suggestion. We'll start at level 1. I'll check with the DM about CC and CD.

So unless those books are in I should probably go for dwarf and focus on wis, con and str correct? Also should I focus on my abilities in that order?

[Gwendol]

Right, healing should be your third priority after buffing and utility/battlefield control. Or even fourth if you go the melee cleric route.

You have access to a huge amount of spells, it will require some reading and some trials to work out how and when to use them.

[Gwendol]

All 16 is good enough for a melee cleric. You'll raise WIS with level.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would focus on Wis > Con > Str > Cha > Int > Dex

I would recommend you look at the SRD varient races (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantRaces.htm). Desert dwarf is great for clerics, as is an earth dwarf.

For the lower levels focus on a sword and board combat style and on staying alive. Pick up buff spells and things to lock down combat when possible. Your ability to convert spells to cure spells means that you should never prepare them, as you can turn any slot into a cure spell as needed.

Once you hit 7th level or so, you get divine power and Righteous Might to come soon after. These make you a melee powerhouse.

[Gwendol]

WIS 16 is plenty enough for the first levels anyway, no need to go overboard. You'll get Owl's wisdom soon enough to crank up your save DC's.

Of course, if you can fit in higher WIS, that's great.

[jedipilot24]

Try to get Lesser Aasimar, if it's allowed, or LA Buy-off and normal Aasimar if it isn't.
If you've got Complete Divine, the Turn Undead variant there is WAY better than the PHB version. To the point of it actually making it a worthwhile ability.
Expedition to Castle Ravenloft also describes this ACF.

[Fouredged Sword]

Really, on a melee cleric, 16 is about the max you should do, and then put your points from leveling into ether strength or con. You get a +4 item to carry you over the 19 threshold for 9th level spells as call it a day. Even a 13 will be fine, as you get a +6 item. The trade off is saves (and you are hitting people in melee) and bonus spells (and you are spending your action swinging a morning star)

If you really want to do a melee cleric, I would go dwarf with stats like

Con > Str > Wis (min 13) > Cha > Int > Dex

[Firechanter]

How are you generating your stats?

For example, for a PB 32 (which I always use), I'd do something like:

Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 10
then put all levelups into Wis. If you really want to minmax, you can dump Cha entirely. Int also isn't so crucial, but you certainly want _some_ skill points.
Anyway, I'd _always_ keep Wis as priority stat. You're a Cleric, not some freakin half-assed Paladin.

[Lappy9001]

I agree with turning not being worth it, but if you're Neutral or Evil, rebuke undead is a pretty decent way to go. If you can convince your DM to let you use CD or CC defs pump the turning 'cause there's some really great turning feats in those.

[GilesTheCleric]

Did you want any sort of advice on spell selection, or have you got that under control?

[ArcturusV]

On top of the spell selections mentioned? I'd add one role that they didn't in the mix of Buffing, Battlefield Control, Melee Beatsticking, and Healing, and perhaps one of the more important ones that Clerics truly excel at more than any other class.

"Knowing Everything".

Seriously, Clerics get earlier, easier, and more reliable access to "Knowledge" spells than any other classes. Spells ranging from "Detect ____" to "Find Traps" to Augury, Divination, Speak with Dead, Commune, etc. All insanely useful and powerful spells to consider. You can have a very successful Cleric by basically playing the Wise Old Man who goes, "Hey... my divinely powered gift from a near all seeing being told us that we should probably go that away, and bring silver weapons".

[Fouredged Sword]

Divination is a great choice for cleric because if you need it, you cast it, and if you don't then it becomes a cure spell.

[aapje]

I am going to check with my DM about the Complete Divine book.

Stats will be determined by rolling 4d6 keep the highest 3 and then assigning those values to attributes.

I don't think the DM will go for a (lesser) Aasimar and they don't look very interesting to rp anyway :)

[aapje]

Heard back from my DM and we won't be using CD/CC etc.

So with that in mind what are good feats?

Thanks for all the help btw!

[Gwendol]

I gave you suggestions with that limit in mind.

[ArcturusV]

Hmm.... depends really. I mean it comes down to your role. As a Cleric "I know all my spells" means you're fairly flexible. What locks you into a role isn't so much your spell choices as your feat choices. And PrCs for that matter.

Myself? I liked going with Item Crafter. Depending on how your DM handles loot and items, it goes from being mildly useful to being the most important thing in your party. Don't let the XP costs fool you, they're miniscule, and you'll never fall more than a level behind your party. And that only happens when they just BARELY reach a new level and you're just one encounter shy.

If you go go Item Crafter? I'd grab Scribe Scroll at level 1. Particularly if you're starting at level 1. For the cost of 12 GP and 1 XP you can nearly double your useful spells per day. It's really a good deal at low levels. If you're starting at higher levels, not all that great.

Wondrous Items at level 3 is an obvious choice. It's a kitchen sink type of Item Crafting. You can make everything from Eight Diagram Coins to Peripats of Wisdom with it. You won't ever regret that. Even if you only take ONE item crafting feat, that's probably the one to pick.

Magical Arms/Armor is another obvious one to pick at level 6. As a Cleric you can usually make most of the useful, standard item types/enchantments, and your party's beatsticks will probably appreciate being able to Custom Order a perfect sword from you.

Rings and Rods are usually the two other ones that stand out to me a lot. Staves are good but most staves, off the top of my head aren't really Cleric based so you probably can't get much mileage out of that crafting feat.

[Fouredged Sword]

Another option is metamagic. Reach, extend, and chain are metamagic feats you will enjoy for most of the game. A chain greater magic weapon spell means never having to have more than a +1 base enhancement on your swords.

This can be replaced with pearls of power and metamagic rods though, and it is somewhat better as rods as well. Just food for thought.

[Firechanter]

A chain greater magic weapon spell means never having to have more than a +1 base enhancement on your swords.


Problem is that he only has access to the PHB metamagic feats, so no Reach or Chain for him. Alas. Chained buffs are some of my favourite metamagics.

[aapje]

Thanks for the suggestions. I don't know much about either metamagic or crafting so I'll read up on that :)

I think I'll be in melee a lot so power attack seems useful as well.

[Fouredged Sword]

Power attack is useful. Avoid cleave (looks good on paper, rarely comes up). Also avoid the weapon focus line, as they don't do much. Look for feats that provide more options rather than static bonuses to your options you already have.

Item creation feats - Great
Metamagic feats - Great

Weapon focus - Bad

[Telonius]

If you're planning on Summoning a lot of monsters, Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm) is a decent prestige class in Core. It requires the Spell Focus: Conjuration feat, but gives back Augment Summoning at second level (something you might be considering anyway, if you like to summon things), gives a free Extend to all summoning spells at 3rd, and grants a Planar Cohort (i.e. the best portion of the Leadership feat, though costing gold) at 5th.

EDIT: And since it's only a one-feat investment, you can usually fit it in with almost an other role everyone else is describing.

[Gwendol]

If you plan to melee a lot then cleave can be very useful.

[ArcturusV]

Correction, cleave/great cleave is good if you melee a lot and your DM gives you mooks to mow down. Otherwise it's not as good as one would hope.

[Gwendol]

If you have the feat you tend to mind your position in combat such that you have more than one enemy within reach (thus, a reach weapon can be very good). Getting an extra attack is never bad, and melee clerics tend to drop foes quite often.

For spells you will be somewhat limited at first, but you can't go wrong with bless. I also like to stack protection from evil and shield of faith. Divine favor grants a luck bonus and stacks with most other buffs.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you use a reach weapon, consider also having armor spikes to threaten and attack foes who close inside your reach. It takes a feat or fighter dip for a cleric, but being able to strike foes next to you is nice.