Focused Diviner and Spontaenous Divination

[Lactantius]

Hi,
I wonder if I would take the spont. div. ACF instead of my 5th level bonus feat (CC), would this classify my diviner as "having virtually prepared the needed divination spell slots" a focused specialist needs?

With other words:
Since I could switch ANY spell to a divination spell, in actuality I would have had prepared 3 divination spell slots (which the focused specialist requires).

Is this approach legal?
At least, it would fit very fine for a total diviner/sage concept. And mechanically, you don't get heachache to memorize 3 divination spells each spell level.

[Crake]

If your question is whether or not you need to prepare your divination-only spell slots, since you can convert the slots into any other divination anyway, the answer, technically, is you do. Since you can only convert prepared spells, you must have a spell prepared to convert. That said, since you can convert the divination spells to any other divination spells, you can just prepare all of the same spell in those slots and convert it to whatever you need on the fly, but note that if you want to apply metamagic to those converted spells, they are treated as spontaneous, and thus require either the rapid metamagic feat, or a full round action to cast, which can be a pain.

That said, I have no idea why you would choose a focused diviner and spontaneous divination, since you could convert, say, conjuration spells prepared in a conjurer's bonus spell slot into a divination spell with spontaneous divination (only reason I could see is the 1 less banned school).

[Lactantius]

My choice of specialization results is completely background-driven:
I want to play a scholastic, sagelike lorekeeper with heavy focus on preserving the weave, being watchful against evil spellcasting and misused (black) magic.
So, technically, divination and abjuration are his main sticks.

That's why I'M totally bound to the focused diviner.
But though I would make heavy use of divination spells, I find it hard to cast 3 per spell level.
At level 10 I would need to memorize 15 divination spells per day. Pretty hard since divination is the smallest school (besides enchantment).

So, with spontaenous divination I try to make the running, bookkeeping and spell preparation a bit easier.
Would that be cheesy to rule conform (RAW or RAI, both valid)?
I mean, a focused conjurer or transmuter just runs the game without and such problems.

I see that by the exact wording, I need to have a prepared spell slot before I start spont. div.
Even then, if it would not be 100% RAW, would it sound resaonable to treat all prepared slots (with conjuraton, abjr etc) as virtually divination prepped?

Or would it be okay to soften up the requirements of the focused diviner spell slots for tight spell schools like divination and enchantment?

[Aracor]

You'd have to talk to your DM about that. As wizards are plenty strong anyway, I absolutely would not allow you to prepare any spells in those slots and then say "i virtually prepared divinations in them" because you could cast the prepared spells (which are NOT divinations) from them instead. They are slots that can only have divination spells prepared in them. So no conjurations, abjurations, or anything else.

I'd let you leave them empty, because spontaneous divination would let you treat them as having any divination spell in them at all, but you can effectively do that anyway by putting true casting in all of the first level slots, detect thoughts in all the second level slots, etc.

You DID notice the errata that you need to actually know the divination spells (as in have them in your spellbook) for you to cast them with spontaneous divination, right?

[Lactantius]

Sure, I am pretty conservative so that my wizard must learn the spell in the first place.

But wait, maybe I got misunderstood.

What I want is to circumvent preparing 3 divination spells per spell level for real. Not because of usin cheese stuff or getting too strong, more because it could be painful to memorize and organize that many divination spells.

So the idea is like that:
the aforementioned wizard could memorize, for example, magic missile, silent image, grease, mage armor and protection from evil at level 1.
He could neglect to use the specialist slots with divination spells since magic missile, silent image etc. would count as "focused specialist slot", just because spontaenous divination brands them as virtually having divination prepped.

[Aracor]

And that's exactly what is completely wrong. Focused specialist is considered a limitation.

Basically, what you're saying is this: "Since I can spontaneously cast a divination, that means I should be able to memorize whatever spells I want in my my specialist slots because I could possibly choose later to cast them as divinations instead."

That's the problem. You're suggesting that a completely unrelated ability (the ability to spontaneously cast divinations out of any slot) should permit you to completely bypass the limitation that you must prepare spells from your specialist school in your specialist spell slots. The only way you could do that semi-easily is to use mage of the arcane order to let you cast whatever spells you want, and then pay back the spellpool using your specialist slots.

If you're worried about organizing that many divination spells (because organizing them is literally identical to organizing any other spells), maybe you shouldn't be playing a wizard.

[KillianHawkeye]

I completely agree with Aracor. There's no way you should be able to prepare any spell you want in your specialist spell slots. That's tantamount to just getting free spell slots and defeats the purpose of specialization being a trade-off.

[Lactantius]

I see your points, completely valid, I must say.
In other words, would you agree that practically it is not possible to play a focused diviner?
I have compiled a complete divination spell list. And that already includes splatbooks, just to visualize the dilemma:


1 - comprehend languages, detect dragonblood, detect secret doors, detect undead, identify, locate city, scholars touch, true casting, true strike, vigilant slumber

2 - allied footsteps, balancing lorecall, chain of eyes, detect aberration, detect thoughts, see invisibility, spymaster's coin

3 - analyze portal, arcane sight, battlemagic perception, clairaudience/clairvoyance, enduring scrutiny, spellcaster's bane, telepathic bond (lesser), tongues, unluck, vision of the omniscient eye

4 - arcane eye, assay SR, detect scrying, locate creature, scrying

5 - contact other plane, prying eyes, telepathic bond

6 - analyze dweomer, eyes of the oracle, legend lore, probe thoughts, scry location, true seeing

7 - greater scrying, greater arcane sight

8 - discern location, greater prying eyes, moment of prescience

9 - eye of power, foresight, hindsight

As you can see, a focused diviner would have no chance to create a good spellselection as a Transmuter or Conjurer could do so.
Let's assume people would like to play a focused specialist not only because of raw power (which the overpowered transmutation and conjuration schools give), but for flavor and archetypical reasons.
To make those other six focused specialists playable, would it be a good idea to ignore the "three spells per spell level" rule and instead use the usual specialist preparations (means, one spell each level must be of the specialist school)?

I could see this helping focused diviners acutally running in games and I don't see how they coul dget too strong with that since they still have to ban another school.

Thoughts?

[NNescio]

I see your points, completely valid, I must say.
In other words, would you agree that practically it is not possible to play a focused diviner?
I have compiled a complete divination spell list. And that already includes splatbooks, just to visualize the dilemma:



As you can see, a focused diviner would have no chance to create a good spellselection as a Transmuter or Conjurer could do so.
Let's assume people would like to play a focused specialist not only because of raw power (which the overpowered transmutation and conjuration schools give), but for flavor and archetypical reasons.
To make those other six focused specialists playable, would it be a good idea to ignore the "three spells per spell level" rule and instead use the usual specialist preparations (means, one spell each level must be of the specialist school)?

I could see this helping focused diviners acutally running in games and I don't see how they coul dget too strong with that since they still have to ban another school.

Thoughts?

Focused diviners are wizards. They are still pretty playable. Suboptimal, yes, but again, still pretty playable.

I'm leery of giving wizards additional buffs as they are already very powerful and versatile.

Focused specialist trades versatility for additional power in a single school. It's a trade-off. Trying to do away with its weaknesses for flavor reasons strikes me as a form of well, "flavor-lawyering", or using flavor and/or setting reasons to justify additional mechanical power beyond the rules (no offense intended).

Furthermore, focused specialists have pretty much the same flavor as their regular specialists. If you think a focused specialist is too restrictive, just take the regular version. Master specialist and single-school 'focused' PrCs like Iot7V and Divine Oracle can be used if you want to give your character an additional specialist bent.

(Then again fluff is pretty much mutable anyway.)

From a mechanical perspective, certain feats like Alacritous Cogitation and Spontaneous Divination (for non divination specialists) can help turn specialist slots into non-specialist spells. Specialist slots can also be used to fuel Archmage abilities (including being turned into SLAs of a fixed spell from another school).

[GreenETC]

There's no reason to be a Focused Specialist Diviner, and removing limitations for them will only cause more problems. Sure they're not optimal, but imagine a Focused Specialist Diviner in your new system compared to a Focused Specialist Conjurer. At a new spell level, the Conjurer gets 3 specialist slots, and 0 regular slots unless they have the Int for it. A Diviner gets 1 specialist slot, but then also has 2 regular slots now, which he could use to put anything in them. And in exchange for 1 less school than a Conjurer.

This means that a Focused Specialist Diviner who has no more than a limit of 1 specialist slot effectively gets 2 free slots that not only other Focused Specialists don't get, but also above regular Wizards, who would only have 1. If Focused Specialist Diviner is summarily unplayable in your opinion, than making them better isn't the point, as Wizards are already fine.

A Spontaneous Divination Wizard is effectively a Focused Specialist Diviner anyway, and with awesome Divinations like Unluck and Alter Fortune, I doubt you'll be at a lack of good spells to swap to. Just play anything but a Diviner and change your specialist slots to Divinations if you need them.

[KillianHawkeye]

In that case, just do not be Focused on Divination. Changing the rules about it are not going to be a viable solution.

[ahenobarbi]

In that case, just do not be Focused on Divination. Changing the rules about it are not going to be a viable solution.

Basically this. From what you wrote regular wizard with spontaneous divination would work very well for your needs.

[Lactantius]

Okay, so we agree that the focused specialist is only playable in a few, special builds like illusionist and shadowcraft mage, focused conjurer, transmuter and maybe a focused necromancer going for the whole debuff and create thing (though, I would take the Dread Necro if i wanted to play a necromancer in the first place).

Thanks, I think I will stick to a straight diviner with some other chances getting extra slots (circlet of mages, pearls of power, spellcasting prodigy and some eternal wands).

Maybe I will try this prestige class I saw in a 3rd publisher supplement going for double spezialization (meaning, if you start as specialist and pikc up the PrC, you must specialiaze again, barring another school just as a Red Wizard does, but getting again +1 slot for this second spezializtion school).

[NNescio]

Okay, so we agree that the focused specialist is only playable in a few, special builds like illusionist and shadowcraft mage, focused conjurer, transmuter and maybe a focused necromancer going for the whole debuff and create thing (though, I would take the Dread Necro if i wanted to play a necromancer in the first place).

Thanks, I think I will stick to a straight diviner with some other chances getting extra slots (circlet of mages, pearls of power, spellcasting prodigy and some eternal wands).

Maybe I will try this prestige class I saw in a 3rd publisher supplement going for double spezialization (meaning, if you start as specialist and pikc up the PrC, you must specialiaze again, barring another school just as a Red Wizard does, but getting again +1 slot for this second spezializtion school).

You said that your character's main schticks are divination and abjuration right? Focused abjurer would work with Spontaneous Divination. You can covert your abjuration bonus slots into divination spells as needed.

There are some builds hanging around that rely on being a focused diviner, 'though they tend to be sneak-attack based and revolve around the Unseen Seer PrC (and grabbing Hunter's Eye along the way). Spamming divinations isn't so bad when you can deal heaps of near-guaranteed damage with them.

Some other builds rely on Versatile Spellcaster to effectively convert any two lower level spells to cast any known spell that is one level higher. These rely on Alacritous Cogitation/Uncanny Forethought/Spontaneous Divination to fulfill the spontaneous caster requirement. Used this way, Versatile Spellcaster allows you to circumvent most specialist slot restrictions and therefore Focused Diviner becomes the natural chassis for this kind of build. It's usually regarded as cheesy though, as it effectively turns you into a spontaneous caster with the spells known of a Wizard.

I previously mentioned Alacritous Cogitation to help convert a divination slot into a non-divination spell. Uncanny Forethought is a superior version, 'though it requires Spell Mastery as a prerequisite and penalizes your caster level slight;y for non-mastered spells cast by using Uncanny Forethought. Both are reasonable feats as long as Versatile Spellcaster is not in play.

[ArcturusV]

Odd question related to topic:

Why is Focused Diviner being talked about like it's some horrible malady that needs to be cured?

I ask because I always considered divination to really be one of the most powerful schools (Despite WotC's insistence that it is the weakest and thus only needs to ban one). Playing even fairly low Op standards, a good diviner is a huge boon to the party.

On the high end of Optimization, when I see talking about truly god tier wizards and what not (Not Batman, but the guys who are so powerful they are running the show)... they seem to be mostly Diviners, as their daily spell load out seems to generally be "Spam a bunch of divinations, then act on 'em".

[KillianHawkeye]

It's not about whether Divination is powerful or weak, it's about the fact that there just aren't very many Divination spells to fill all those slots with, particularly your high level spell slots.