Can a time travelling PC ever NOT ruin a campaign?

[Nettlekid]

I was looking through Hyperconcious the other day, the 3rd party (but written by Bruce Cordell so pretty legit) Psionics handbook, and noticed that the Chronorebel PrC has a really cool name. Chronorebel. C'mon. That's awesome. Then I looked through its class features. It's basically a bit like Zerth Cenobite, but 8/10 manifesting as opposed to having its own progression. But it's the capstone that's awesome. By expending PP as a 9th level power, you can travel a minimum of 17 days and a maximum of 500 years/manifester level into the past. You can spend one day/ML in the past before you're snapped back to the present (+any time you were in the past, so if you were there for three days you get back three days later than you left). If you start seriously shaking stuff up, then within a week the universe sends something to kill you, so don't rock the boat.

As if. If you're a near level 20 Psion who's goal is to be a master of time, you can handle anything the universe sends at you short of outright "rocks fall you die," and even then all of your contingencies and the like ought to activate to bring you back.

Imagine combining this capstone ability, Chrosynchrony, with two other powers: (Mass) Time Hop and Temporal Reiteration. Temporal Reiteration makes the round you use it not count toward duration of any effects, like powers and spells, rage, poison, etc. If you use Temporal Reiteration every turn (and since you're a Psion, breaking action economy and refilling your PP, you should be able to) then the time spent in the past shouldn't count as time in the past. You could spend a Temporal Reiterated year in the past, and then when you choose, snap back to one round after you left the present. And with (Mass for the longer duration) Time Hop, you could bypass the annoying aspect of having to go 17 days into the past by skipping ahead from that time ML hours into the future with each use.

I think this character would be entirely capable of rewriting time. In the middle of a battle, the Psion declares that after he wins the battle, he'll go back 17 days into the past, buy a magic item that would help him win the battle, skip ahead with Time Hop to right now, teleport in, give himself the item, and then return to his own present time. As long as he actually does that, then his slightly-future-self should appear to give him the item, right? It would be like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, D&D style.

I immediately recognize that this would be incredibly unfair to any DM running a game with this kind of character, and would rightfully be disallowed. But if it were allowed, would it work?

[John Longarrow]

It would up until the universe decides to change out how mommy got pregnant and said character gets turned into a 20th level commoner that's now standing in an epic fight, holding their pitchfork... :smallcool:

[Psyren]

To use that PrC you need to read the Edict of Time sidebar. Basically it throws out the butterfly effect - very minor changes have no real impact on the timeline as a whole, i.e. no crushing an ant and then traveling back to find out that all humans are fishpeople or something.

Major changes however will result in avoidable disaster for the character - basically, rocks fall - unless he puts whatever he changed back to rights.

What the ability is for is more for things like recovering something that was long-lost (if it was lost in the past after all, nobody would know it was gone, therefore you're free to recover and steal it), for witnessing important historical events (which is really no different than something like Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions or Object Reading), or receiving important information from a historical figure before his death. Basically, stick mostly to what the Doctor does and you should be fine.

[Segev]

So it's meant to have a love affair wherein you meet her for the first time the last time she ever sees you, and vice-versa?

[Psyren]

So it's meant to have a love affair wherein you meet her for the first time the last time she ever sees you, and vice-versa?

Don't start. I can't stand her. :smalltongue:

[NichG]

I think this character would be entirely capable of rewriting time. In the middle of a battle, the Psion declares that after he wins the battle, he'll go back 17 days into the past, buy a magic item that would help him win the battle, skip ahead with Time Hop to right now, teleport in, give himself the item, and then return to his own present time. As long as he actually does that, then his slightly-future-self should appear to give him the item, right? It would be like Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, D&D style.

I immediately recognize that this would be incredibly unfair to any DM running a game with this kind of character, and would rightfully be disallowed. But if it were allowed, would it work?

Game mechanics aside, the problem is 'what model does time follow?'.

If you can change the past, then declaring 'after this fight I do X' doesn't do anything, because you're not in the timeline in which you've changed the past yet. Basically, you have to survive the fight without help before you can go back and help yourself.

If you can't change the past (e.g. if every time travel event that changes the course of time is predestined) then this could work. Except at this point, the choice is in the hands of 'the universe' rather than your character. There are two consistent possibilities, both of which could be the 'true timeline', and you have no way in the moment of changing which is actually true:

1. You die in the fight and never travel back in time to help yourself.
2. You don't die in the fight because you traveled back in time to help yourself.

I also have to question the practicality of using predestination as a mechanic in a game where you have open-ended time travel abilities. Eventually someone goes and says 'I'm going to explicitly try to change something small just to see what happens'. For this class it may just a case of the cruder 'the universe sends someone to smack you upside the head and fix it manually' though, a sort of wink-wink-nudge-predestination.

So I think in general its hard to help yourself in this particular way. Now, you could fight very carefully to make sure you survive, running if you have to. If the fight didn't go your way, you then travel back and participate it with a second copy, third, fourth, etc as needed. But you can't save your own life with this - you have to make sure you live through it without future aid first.

[Psyren]

Game mechanics aside, the problem is 'what model does time follow?'.

The sidebar tells you what model time follows for this PrC. It might function differently for other effects (e.g. Teleport Through Time or deities) but for the Chronorebel, events are mostly predestined.

[Nettlekid]

It would up until the universe decides to change out how mommy got pregnant and said character gets turned into a 20th level commoner that's now standing in an epic fight, holding their pitchfork... :smallcool:

That's actually quite a good point. Although I was thinking that an Elan would be the best race for it, immortal and all, the creation of the Elan is still an issue. I guess the first thing to do with your near-Epic powers would be to jump back to the human self's first ancestor and guard them for their family tree's entire life until the point that you become an Elan. Maybe do that a few times.

It would also probably behoove you to stick a copy of yourself, either via Nybor's Psychic Imprint or just a Fissioned self, into a vat of Quintessence. That which exists outside the time frame can't be affected by paradoxes in time right? In the case that you do turn into a level 20 Commoner, that should be enough backup, I would think.

Or just end up creating yourself Homestuck-style. Make yourself as a baby a clone of yourself. And that's the way it will always have been, you've just never known it, so it keeps the loop contained within itself. Then you just have to guard your baby self until you become an Elan, and then an Epic Psion.


To use that PrC you need to read the Edict of Time sidebar. Basically it throws out the butterfly effect - very minor changes have no real impact on the timeline as a whole, i.e. no crushing an ant and then traveling back to find out that all humans are fishpeople or something.

Major changes however will result in avoidable disaster for the character - basically, rocks fall - unless he puts whatever he changed back to rights.

What the ability is for is more for things like recovering something that was long-lost (if it was lost in the past after all, nobody would know it was gone, therefore you're free to recover and steal it), for witnessing important historical events (which is really no different than something like Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions or Object Reading), or receiving important information from a historical figure before his death. Basically, stick mostly to what the Doctor does and you should be fine.

Although in theory the whole Edict of Time thing makes the paradox...well actually, I was about to say it fixes it, but it doesn't really, does it? It's just like "Ooh, you screwed up, off you go" but whatever you screwed up stays as it now is. I'm thankful that, as you say, there's no butterfly effect thing, or it would be actually impossible to do anything that wasn't predetermined. So that's a relief. But when it comes to bigger changes, and those "unavoidable disasters," I mean, how much of a disaster is really unavoidable? If a character has a Clone, Contingent True Resurrection, maybe took the Eternal Hero Epic Destiny, or I dunno, is a Lich or Vampire Lord or something that's really hard to kill, how much can the universe really do? Especially since moments before you die, you're likely to use your time powers to jump back and prepare for that method of execution (which might trigger a new one (this is turning into Final Destination, isn't it?))

I am thinking about the Doctor, and thinking about how sometimes he tries not to get involved, and sometimes he outright abuses paradoxes. Getting out of the Pandorica involved a pretty big paradox, but that's like exactly what I'd want this character to do (just replace sonic screwdriver with say, Sovereign Glue if that was what was needed...for whatever reason.)

[AWiz_Abroad]

So, my Epic character happened with some significantly luck rolls, find the Teleport Through Time. I've been working with the DM to build in rules for time travel. This is the current iteration

1. The Universe Finds a way: Also known as conservation of history. All major historical events happen as they were intended to happen. Any changes made have to be historically insignificant. Additionally, they cannot be something that the you in the prime timeline could've heard about. If someone does go back in time and changes something historically significant, the same event happens by some other route.

2. Travel back o the original date always occurs to the future of the altered timeline. This one is merely for simplicity sake, as well as to give the spell/power some purpose.

3. Attempts to screw up the timeline by communicating the future to any participants will be dealt with severely by the combined might of ALL the deific pantheons. The future is not something that anyone besides the deities are authorized to communicate to mortals. Period. They view it as copyright infringement.


4The deities allow time travel, but they don't let the ineffable plan get eff'ed by the efforts of those meddling kids. Breaking the multiverse is just not cool. They have a corps of very talented individuals who keep a close eye on time travelers. Called the Time Lord Corps (Shades of both Doctor Who and Green Lantern), they ensure the maintenance of major historical continuity. They utilize specialized items with at will powers of teleport through time, discern location, greater teleport, and anti-magic field. They utilize these devices to identify, locate apprehend and return errant time travelers to the pantheons for judgement. The individuals are constructs who've been online for eons, so they can teleport throughout history.


5. Contact with yourself is bad. According to the exclusion principle, no two identical bodies can occupy the same space at the same time — everything will just go kablooey. This also prevents a temporal paradox, as you have no memory of ever meeting yourself. If you do come across someone who looks like you, don't make eye contact, and let that handsome devil continue on his business. This goes double for anything involving your conception, your birth, or any near death experiences.


_____________

Thats the current list of time travel rules thus far

[Segev]

So...

Time Hop your victim into the future.

Chronorebel Capstone back 17 days.

Time Hop yourself forward twice - this shouldn't count against the time you spend in the past, but moves you forward, so now you have some overlap.

Go spend ~16 days preparing for that fight, and get in position, hidden from view where the fight will start.

Jump out just after your past self Capstones back. When your victim returns from the Time Hop you sent him through, trigger your readied trap or otherwise finish him off in the few rounds you have remaining.

Capstone ends, and you pop forward 17 days. Since you probably were at full resources (you had a whole day of rest after your preparations finished), you can Capstone back again after checking with your party to see if they have any messages for their past selves, drop off those messages, and then return, letting your party take 17 days downtime while they wait for you and possibly prepare for whatever it is you gave them a message about. You, meanwhile, wait a few days and, if they REALLY need you during that 17-day gap, Capstone back to it when it's 17 days in your past.

[Psyren]

Although in theory the whole Edict of Time thing makes the paradox...well actually, I was about to say it fixes it, but it doesn't really, does it? It's just like "Ooh, you screwed up, off you go" but whatever you screwed up stays as it now is.
...
I mean, how much of a disaster is really unavoidable? If a character has a Clone, Contingent True Resurrection, maybe took the Eternal Hero Epic Destiny, or I dunno, is a Lich or Vampire Lord or something that's really hard to kill, how much can the universe really do?

Quite a lot :smalltongue: everything you listed can be annihilated quite easily.

The sidebar basically says "the DM destroys you" - And it doesn't specify when either, so it can actually destroy you before you changed whatever caused the Edict to fire in the first place, thus undoing it. So the Chronorebel's ability to destroy a campaign is pretty limited when you think about it.



I am thinking about the Doctor, and thinking about how sometimes he tries not to get involved, and sometimes he outright abuses paradoxes. Getting out of the Pandorica involved a pretty big paradox, but that's like exactly what I'd want this character to do (just replace sonic screwdriver with say, Sovereign Glue if that was what was needed...for whatever reason.)

Rod of Wonder makes a good screwdriver :smallbiggrin:

Paradoxes are possible, but only the paradoxes that were... meant to be, as it were. Like the Pandorica.

[Telonius]

Characters like this are why Mechanus made Quaruts.

[Nettlekid]

So I think in general its hard to help yourself in this particular way. Now, you could fight very carefully to make sure you survive, running if you have to. If the fight didn't go your way, you then travel back and participate it with a second copy, third, fourth, etc as needed. But you can't save your own life with this - you have to make sure you live through it without future aid first.

(I agree with the all the stuff I snipped out, including the dilemma between predestined versus changeable, etc, which is why I wanted people's opinions)

This is also something I've thought about. Like, let's say Atropus is about to crash down into the Material Plane. You teleport up there, and decide you want some backup. Are you saying that you'd first have to be able to destroy Atropus on your own before you go back and help yourself? As opposed to just saying "A second version of you with a bit of sweat on his forehead appears. 'Oh, hey, how did the fight go?' you ask. 'We destroyed it, but it took a while.' says the second you. 'How many of us were there?' 'Ten showed up total, including us, so after this fight I've got to go back and do it eight more times, and you've got nine, plus this conversation.' 'Oh, cool. Oh look, there's you from the future coming back a third time.' 'No, actually, this is my sixth time. Wait, that means I'm the one to tell you guys that we should use Breath of the Black Dragon instead of Psionic Disintegrate, because it'll go faster.' 'Cool, thanks for the tip.'" That can't happen the first time around?


Don't start. I can't stand her. :smalltongue:
Ohmygod thank you. People tear into me when I say I don't like her, but I think the plotline was pointlessly convoluted and she's a strained attempt at making like an "edgy rebel-type Doctor-esque character" for the sake of variety.


So...

Time Hop your victim into the future.

Chronorebel Capstone back 17 days.

Time Hop yourself forward twice - this shouldn't count against the time you spend in the past, but moves you forward, so now you have some overlap.

Go spend ~16 days preparing for that fight, and get in position, hidden from view where the fight will start.

Jump out just after your past self Capstones back. When your victim returns from the Time Hop you sent him through, trigger your readied trap or otherwise finish him off in the few rounds you have remaining.

Capstone ends, and you pop forward 17 days. Since you probably were at full resources (you had a whole day of rest after your preparations finished), you can Capstone back again after checking with your party to see if they have any messages for their past selves, drop off those messages, and then return, letting your party take 17 days downtime while they wait for you and possibly prepare for whatever it is you gave them a message about. You, meanwhile, wait a few days and, if they REALLY need you during that 17-day gap, Capstone back to it when it's 17 days in your past.

If I followed that correctly (I think I did, but I'm never sure with time travel) then that's exactly the kind of stuff I want to do.

EDIT:

Quite a lot :smalltongue: everything you listed can be annihilated quite easily.

The sidebar basically says "the DM destroys you" - And it doesn't specify when either, so it can actually destroy you before you changed whatever caused the Edict to fire in the first place, thus undoing it. So the Chronorebel's ability to destroy a campaign is pretty limited when you think about it.


Ahhhh, I'm not so sure about that. "However, [the Edict] never fails to find the chronorebel within seven days (in his personal timeframe) of the historical change." You know exactly when it's going to come. Some time in the next seven days from your point of view, after you do whatever it is you did (maybe that's after you actually changed the thing, or after you get back, but either way it's a set starting point). So yeah, you could Time Hop eight days into the future, but since time hasn't gone by for you then it's still coming, sure. But what if you warp onto your own little demiplane where there's no hostile forces at all? Or Ysgard, where no one stays dead? Chill with partying Barbarians for a week, and you're in the clear! Right?



Rod of Wonder makes a good screwdriver :smallbiggrin:

Paradoxes are possible, but only the paradoxes that were... meant to be, as it were. Like the Pandorica.
I didn't actually want something replicating a sonic screwdriver, just something that would serve as a needed tool in the predicament you're in. That said, you're quite right, it would.

And yeah, I guess then like, I would like this character to be able to make paradoxes that were meant to be. Yes, he hands himself the special weapon. Object Reads it later to find out where it came from. Goes there, buys it, warps back, gives it to himself.

[Segev]

This is also something I've thought about. Like, let's say Atropus is about to crash down into the Material Plane. You teleport up there, and decide you want some backup. Are you saying that you'd first have to be able to destroy Atropus on your own before you go back and help yourself? As opposed to just saying "A second version of you with a bit of sweat on his forehead appears. 'Oh, hey, how did the fight go?' you ask. 'We destroyed it, but it took a while.' says the second you. 'How many of us were there?' 'Ten showed up total, including us, so after this fight I've got to go back and do it eight more times, and you've got nine, plus this conversation.' 'Oh, cool. Oh look, there's you from the future coming back a third time.' 'No, actually, this is my sixth time. Wait, that means I'm the one to tell you guys that we should use Breath of the Black Dragon instead of Psionic Disintegrate, because it'll go faster.' 'Cool, thanks for the tip.'" That can't happen the first time around?It begs the question: how did the time loop reveal "Breath of the Black Dragon instead of Psionid Disintegrate" to the 'you' team?

It's still doable, mind, but it means that there are actually iterations of the loop that got folded "out" of causality. They'd likely take some very tricky work to time-travel "back" to, because they 'doxed themselves. But, because they clean themselves up, the only paradoxical bit is that information. Or, perhaps, they're all bifurcations, if you prefer that theory of multi-universes. This class seems to want to avoid that, though.

But there WERE 10 iterations of the fight, and each one went poorly enough that the beleagured "original" looped back and told the team something different. The stable time loop has the original loop back 9 times, because he learned the winning solution from the one who looped back from the first successful iteration, and the only loop-change there was how that bit of information was presented. And it was presented in a way that would ensure it is presented the same way on the next iteration, leaving that iteration stable.



Ohmygod thank you. People tear into me when I say I don't like her, but I think the plotline was pointlessly convoluted and she's a strained attempt at making like an "edgy rebel-type Doctor-esque character" for the sake of variety.Eh, she didn't bother me that much, but I didn't really like her. She was certainly less irritating than Donna, to me. Still, I like Oswyn much better. Oswyn's probably second only to Rose as my favorite Companion.




If I followed that correctly (I think I did, but I'm never sure with time travel) then that's exactly the kind of stuff I want to do.
The way it'd wind up playing out in "real time" to the other PCs is that your character would show up just in time to help out as needed, and spend a lot of time not-around while time catches up with him.

However, as the party plays through times he's not allowed to "be" normally, they can announce that they're going to make a note to tell you to show back up "now" when they see you again. The DM will then check with you and, if you agree, you'd appear shortly thereafter. Sometimes, the DM might even have you appear with a message he gives you that's presumably from the party's future selves.

You'd be around for interesting, plot-important bits, with time-traveller foreknowledge. And, if enough time went by "slow," you'd be caught up and able to participate normally again. But I imagine you'll do a LOT of temporal popping in and out to navigate your 17-day window of "no-go" by getting further into the future.

[Deophaun]

The Edict makes a mountain out of a molehill. Simply say that if you change the timestream too much, your consciousness can't cope with the conflicting memories and you're reduced to a vegetable. Int score becomes -. This change is retroactive to all versions of you (as they still retain the original and altered memories).

I generally hate the concept of the universe having a will of its own and it getting upset when people muck it about.

[Nettlekid]

It begs the question: how did the time loop reveal "Breath of the Black Dragon instead of Psionid Disintegrate" to the 'you' team?

It's still doable, mind, but it means that there are actually iterations of the loop that got folded "out" of causality. They'd likely take some very tricky work to time-travel "back" to, because they 'doxed themselves. But, because they clean themselves up, the only paradoxical bit is that information. Or, perhaps, they're all bifurcations, if you prefer that theory of multi-universes. This class seems to want to avoid that, though.

But there WERE 10 iterations of the fight, and each one went poorly enough that the beleagured "original" looped back and told the team something different. The stable time loop has the original loop back 9 times, because he learned the winning solution from the one who looped back from the first successful iteration, and the only loop-change there was how that bit of information was presented. And it was presented in a way that would ensure it is presented the same way on the next iteration, leaving that iteration stable.

Let's see...I guess when I wrote that, I was kind of operating under the idea that in every case of the fight, the one who claimed to be the sixth time round announced the change in plan, and so everyone from 2nd to 6th knew already, but they also knew that it was the 6th one who stated it, so they weren't going to. But you're right, it does ask how did they decide it in the first place. Then again, with loops like these, there very often isn't a "beginning," just a sequence of what "happened." Very much like, let's say in The Lodger, when the Doctor knows to go to Craig's house because of the ad circled in red, and at the end of the episode they circle the ad in red.

And were there 10 iterations of the fight? Like, a fight in which only the first one was there, won but wanted it to go faster, so he went back to make the second? Or, at the very first time the fight happened, nine others came back because to each of them, at their first fight, nine others came back? I guess it's a similar question to the "origin of the plan shift" question above.



Eh, she didn't bother me that much, but I didn't really like her. She was certainly less irritating than Donna, to me. Still, I like Oswyn much better. Oswyn's probably second only to Rose as my favorite Companion.
I just didn't like that she was always the "coy sexy mysterious woman" who was completely unhelpful. She refuses to say things because of "spoilers" except that she does spoil things! "I'll see you again when the Pandorica opens." She's just confirmed the existence of the Pandorica and that it opens. Spoilers. She's painted as a rebel who'll break the laws of time for the man she loves, but does so uselessly. Shooting the Teselecta broke the fixed point in time at Lake Silencio, messing stuff up, but didn't actually help the Doctor. Meanwhile, they could have saved a lot of trouble if she'd just told them all about the existence of the Silence when they go back to Nixon's time to track down what is later revealed to be young River. She actually says that she "had to pretend not to recognize" the spacesuit. Laaaaame.

But quite honestly, the part that gets me is the thing with "you leave the brakes on." NO. No one is allowed to fly the TARDIS better than the Doctor and make him look a bit silly for doing it. She's a human, he's a Time Lord. People might complain that the Doctor is sometimes too smart or perfect at solving problems, but that's what the character is supposed to be!




The way it'd wind up playing out in "real time" to the other PCs is that your character would show up just in time to help out as needed, and spend a lot of time not-around while time catches up with him.

However, as the party plays through times he's not allowed to "be" normally, they can announce that they're going to make a note to tell you to show back up "now" when they see you again. The DM will then check with you and, if you agree, you'd appear shortly thereafter. Sometimes, the DM might even have you appear with a message he gives you that's presumably from the party's future selves.

You'd be around for interesting, plot-important bits, with time-traveller foreknowledge. And, if enough time went by "slow," you'd be caught up and able to participate normally again. But I imagine you'll do a LOT of temporal popping in and out to navigate your 17-day window of "no-go" by getting further into the future.

I could see that working out pretty well. It would also give the DM an excuse to railroad if necessary, because if you use Hindsight to check out a point in the past, they can say "Oh look, you see yourself." "Huh, guess we'll have to go there some time. I make a small cut on my cheek. Does the me in the Hindsight have a cut on his cheek?" "Yes." "Ah, we're going to go there soon. Better get going."
Also, you can take willing allies with you when you go back in time. So you don't have to leave your friends out of the action. You can even keep them there as long as you so long as they're close enough to receive your augmented Temporal Reiteration.

[TiaC]

The three things that you can't add to a story without the story becoming about them are: Giant Mecha, The Cthulhu Mythos, and time travel. No matter what your interpretation of time is, this class will completely change the plot.

[John Longarrow]

Nettlekid

Or Ysgard, where no one stays dead? Chill with partying Barbarians for a week, and you're in the clear! Right?

Actually what happens is;

Step 1) Pull PC from plane to the abyss and eat PCs soul

Step 2) ???

Step 3) Profit.

P.S. Leela for best companion. Anyone who's solution to a Suntiran takeover is to stab each in the neck slot with a dagger thrown from across the room (and CAN) WINS!

[Nettlekid]

Nettlekid


Actually what happens is;

Step 1) Pull PC from plane to the abyss and eat PCs soul

Step 2) ???

Step 3) Profit.

P.S. Leela for best companion. Anyone who's solution to a Suntiran takeover is to stab each in the neck slot with a dagger thrown from across the room (and CAN) WINS!

I believe you've left out a few steps there. Such as how the PC is pulled from the plane, why the wonderfully powerful master Psion can't just nuke any demon and warp back to Ysgard, what happens when the Psion's backup plans activate, etc.

[Psyren]

Ahhhh, I'm not so sure about that. "However, [the Edict] never fails to find the chronorebel within seven days (in his personal timeframe) of the historical change." You know exactly when it's going to come.

That's how long you have to fix things and still be around, sure. But again, it doesn't specify which version of "you" is destroyed.



I generally hate the concept of the universe having a will of its own and it getting upset when people muck it about.

You may not like it, but that assumption really underlies all of D&D. Truename magic and Psionics in particular personify the universe a great deal.


@ River:
I don't mind her showing up the Doctor on occasion (all the companions have their moment when they do that, and he does need to be taken down a peg lest his head swell till it can't fit in the TARDIS.) What I do mind is the implied and very out-of-character rampant sexytime she alludes to with every other sentence. (And I like Donna/Clara precisely because they aren't preoccupied with trying to get in the Doctor's pants too.)

[Yukitsu]

I played a time traveling character once, but the DM noted that all of the time travel I did was stable time loops, so it didn't really disrupt too much.

Basically, you don't use time travel to change the past, you use it to guarantee that the present is what you want it to be at that point in time, which can be tricky. You need to find and make use of a lot of things which weren't observed during the time between your past and present.

[Segev]

Regarding River:The part I loathe about her is the "she's secretly Amy and Rory's daughter" plot line. That...I could have lived with, delivered better, but it was done abysmally. It made the "Doctor Donna" thing seem a light touch, and seem done with well-thought-out attention. (Seriously; "there's something on your back" really should have shown up more BEFORE, and probably NOT after.)

*ahem* Anyway, I agree. "I had to pretend..." is so very, very lame. That whole plot - specifically, how they worked in the "reveal" about River's parentage - reeks of bad fanfic writing. Which is a shame, because the Demons Run business was actually quite cool. I wish they'd spent more time on "the interminable war" and building up hints to it, clues to what caused it. I wish River's connection to Amy had been better foreshadowed. I admit to not knowing how I'd have done it, but the way it WAS done was...sloppy, at best. It felt made-up and retconned.

Ah well. I actually like the Oswyn arc. That was well done front to back, I think. Almost Bad Wolf level of good pacing and foreshadowing. Though Moffet can't seem to manage the subtlety that Davies did. Even if he did the best horror episode of any series - including horror movies! - I've ever seen in "Blink." (Pity Time of Angels and Flesh and Stone kind-of overplayed the hand and made them less horror-inducing. Tried too hard.)

Still, I like the series. Moffet does a decent job, for all my griping.

The tricky bit with time travel in games is that there is no one person who knows how everything will unfold. The DM doesn't know what players will do, and players don't know what the DM has planned, and neither know how the dice will roll. This means any efforts to divine what happens in scenes involving the PCs - including "I jumped forward, tell me what happened so I can go to the past and know as we play it out" - tends to be klunky.

[John Longarrow]

I believe you've left out a few steps there. Such as how the PC is pulled from the plane, why the wonderfully powerful master Psion can't just nuke any demon and warp back to Ysgard, what happens when the Psion's backup plans activate, etc.

Baccob! B-)

If the DM is planning to arrange for the character to be disposed of, the DM will arrange it such that he character is disposed of. Even the most epic of characters can't escape.

As a great scenario.

"You open the door. Within you see a dimly lit room with dark wood paneling. In the center of the room stands a semi-circular table that stand almost four feet tall. The top of the table is covered in a deep green felt. Behind the table stands a dark figure in a white shirt with bow tie, his hands held before him above the table. From below the green visor he years, his dark eyes sparkle as he smiles at your entrance. He asks if you want him to deal you in”.

As DM, I can arrange any result I wish from you playing cards with the god of theives, especially when he plays with a deck of many things. Even worse would be to turn him down...

[Nettlekid]

Baccob! B-)

If the DM is planning to arrange for the character to be disposed of, the DM will arrange it such that he character is disposed of. Even the most epic of characters can't escape.

As a great scenario.

"You open the door. Within you see a dimly lit room with dark wood paneling. In the center of the room stands a semi-circular table that stand almost four feet tall. The top of the table is covered in a deep green felt. Behind the table stands a dark figure in a white shirt with bow tie, his hands held before him above the table. From below the green visor he years, his dark eyes sparkle as he smiles at your entrance. He asks if you want him to deal you in”.

As DM, I can arrange any result I wish from you playing cards with the god of theives, especially when he plays with a deck of many things. Even worse would be to turn him down...

I'd take your suggestion more seriously if you spelled the god's name right. And it sounds like you're referring to Olidammara anyway, not Boccob? What you've described isn't anything like what the Edict of Time suggests. The Edict suggests that a random occurrence like a natural disaster or wayward dragon kills you off. While technically the universe is attacking you, there's no entity, god or otherwise, hunting you down. No god decides to pick you up and off you. And if they did so by playing cards, and ask you if you want to play, your 40-some Int is going to tell you not to.

And in any case, I'm pretty sure that an Epic character can kill gods. Take it up with Tippy. You still haven't countered the possibility of the many contingencies this Psion might have, in the way of fragments of his mind capable of recouping losses and returning to full form in, well, no time at all because you are the master of time. Heck, if you want to flee from the Edict, use the Save Game trick on your Psicrystal to make sure you have a backup outside of all backups.

[NichG]

(I agree with the all the stuff I snipped out, including the dilemma between predestined versus changeable, etc, which is why I wanted people's opinions)

This is also something I've thought about. Like, let's say Atropus is about to crash down into the Material Plane. You teleport up there, and decide you want some backup. Are you saying that you'd first have to be able to destroy Atropus on your own before you go back and help yourself?

Basically yes, or you have to use Segev's method (which requires Atropus to fail a save vs Time Hop).

Essentially, if we're talking about a system where the past can be changed, then any intentions you have in this timeline only affect 'the next timeline', but you still have to go and actually do that. The present doesn't change around you because of a decision you make, because each timeline - before and after the travel event - is distinct.

If we're talking about a system where everything has to be a self-consistent time loop, then you have the problem of 'how does the universe pick between multiple self-consistent outcomes?'. If you can force time travel to be a part of the history (e.g. by using the ability and going back in time) then that limits the self-consistent outcomes to ones involving time travel. But if there is some way the universe can avoid the time travel event ever happening (e.g. by just letting you die in the fight vs Atropus) then that is also a solution.

One could think of it like a quantum mechanics problem. There's a ground state (no time travel) and a number of excited states that involve one, two, three, etc time clones of yourself in an increasingly complex pattern of behavior. On the one hand, if the universe is 'time-cold' (e.g. a time travel event has a large associated energy cost compared to ambient chronological energy), it will default to the ground state where no time travel occurs whenever possible.

If the universe is 'time-hot', however, then the larger entropy of convoluted time-travel loops wins out, and you constantly have time travelers zipping forward and back, and you have something that looks more like a criss-crossed pattern of trajectories than anything resembling linear time.

In general, unless time travelers have already featured heavily, the universe is going to be on the cold side of things, so you might have some nonzero chance that your plan saves your life (just like there's a non-zero chance for an electron to pierce a potential barrier too high for it to cross classically), but that chance exponentially decreases for every additional clone you need to pull it off.



As opposed to just saying "A second version of you with a bit of sweat on his forehead appears. 'Oh, hey, how did the fight go?' you ask. 'We destroyed it, but it took a while.' says the second you. 'How many of us were there?' 'Ten showed up total, including us, so after this fight I've got to go back and do it eight more times, and you've got nine, plus this conversation.' 'Oh, cool. Oh look, there's you from the future coming back a third time.' 'No, actually, this is my sixth time. Wait, that means I'm the one to tell you guys that we should use Breath of the Black Dragon instead of Psionic Disintegrate, because it'll go faster.' 'Cool, thanks for the tip.'" That can't happen the first time around?


In the self-consistent model it could happen, but you have no way of guaranteeing that it will happen. The problem is basically that there are multiple solutions, and you're letting the universe pick for you. Its sort of like relying on your enemy to have a fatal heart-attack at just the right time to save your life.

Now, that said, there's no reason why you couldn't posit spells/powers in D&D that encourage the universe to create non-trivial but self-consistent time loops. But its not like I can say 'well here's how you do it in real life, so this is how the spell would work' :)

Edit: As far as the Edict of Time stuff, there's literally nothing that can be done against open-ended wording of consequences. It doesn't have to happen in the form of an encounter with a specific entity, after all.

I played in a game where time travel was balanced out by something called a Paradox score. As you created more and more inconsistencies, your Paradox went up. As your Paradox went up, your personal experiential timeline of the universe became less and less authoritative, until eventually you got bubbled off in a microcosm where events went the way you changed them to, and for everyone else things just snap back to the original timeline before you changed things, but now with you absent from it.

From your character's point of view, he got his way, and is now adventuring with copies of the people he was adventuring with before, in a universe that he can do whatever he wants to. Everything responds self-consistently as needed - divinations reveal 'no, this is the real universe' and so on. But any attempt to affect 'the outside universe' just spawns a 'fake' outside long enough to respond to the attempt, which then dissolves away when its no longer needed.

Meanwhile, the actual campaign goes on without the character.

Supposedly the Paradox Plane was basically filled with all sorts of dangerous entities, not just time travelers. It was a dumping ground for things that were too dangerous to fight in a direct conflict, and so the section of the universe those beings occupied was just cut loose and bubbled off to form a private playground for the creature where they had no way of verifying that they weren't still in 'the real universe'.

Escaping from Paradox was always annoying, because even if you seem to have succeeded 'did I really make it out, or are we just continuing the campaign in Paradox now?'

[John Longarrow]

Nettlekid

You want serious? Ahh, I thought you had to be joking because of the many ways an epic character can be killed that nature does on a regular basis.

piece of rock, about 50m across, coming down at about 30,000kph hits where the PC is standing. Other, smaller pieces hit where the PC's replacement pieces are. As they come down, they cause a magical influx that travels along all existing magical/psionic paths (say to where the the PCs other or contingent backups are) and delivers equal damage.

Or you could have an epic caster come in and use an epic spell that traps everyone currently under the effect of a temporal effect in a null-time trap, DC being somewhere around a +200 will save. PC isn't killed and isn't harmed, so a lot of effects that would otherwise trip don't. And as the PC isn't technically dead they can't be raised/resurrected.

Or you could have someone with similar powers play the same game the PC is, but supplying support to the PCs enemies without showing themselves. As such, each time the PC does something that would otherwise break the game, their unknown advisary counters at the same time keeping things equal (or balanced against the character). If they are epic also and started doing this first, odds are they would have their counters in place before the PC starts looking and would be doing the same "Go back in time and block it" that the PC does, but they have the advantage of having done so first, so they stop each attempt by the PC. Course they also make sure the PC is killed to avoid having to continue doing this.

That's the first five minutes of planning. If I was the DM and working on making better list because the player was breaking the game, it would be more extensive.

P.S. Gods only die if the DM wants them to be able to die. If they died to Epic characters in general they wouldn't be much of Gods, now would they?

[Nettlekid]

Basically yes, or you have to use Segev's method (which requires Atropus to fail a save vs Time Hop).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see why that Time Hop is necessary. Why not just time warp away, do your prep, and either go to where the fight will be and time your Time Hop perfectly so that you appear right where you want to be, or just be hiding in the bushes the WHOLE time.



Essentially, if we're talking about a system where the past can be changed, then any intentions you have in this timeline only affect 'the next timeline', but you still have to go and actually do that. The present doesn't change around you because of a decision you make, because each timeline - before and after the travel event - is distinct.

If we're talking about a system where everything has to be a self-consistent time loop, then you have the problem of 'how does the universe pick between multiple self-consistent outcomes?'. If you can force time travel to be a part of the history (e.g. by using the ability and going back in time) then that limits the self-consistent outcomes to ones involving time travel. But if there is some way the universe can avoid the time travel event ever happening (e.g. by just letting you die in the fight vs Atropus) then that is also a solution.

One could think of it like a quantum mechanics problem. There's a ground state (no time travel) and a number of excited states that involve one, two, three, etc time clones of yourself in an increasingly complex pattern of behavior. On the one hand, if the universe is 'time-cold' (e.g. a time travel event has a large associated energy cost compared to ambient chronological energy), it will default to the ground state where no time travel occurs whenever possible.

If the universe is 'time-hot', however, then the larger entropy of convoluted time-travel loops wins out, and you constantly have time travelers zipping forward and back, and you have something that looks more like a criss-crossed pattern of trajectories than anything resembling linear time.

In general, unless time travelers have already featured heavily, the universe is going to be on the cold side of things, so you might have some nonzero chance that your plan saves your life (just like there's a non-zero chance for an electron to pierce a potential barrier too high for it to cross classically), but that chance exponentially decreases for every additional clone you need to pull it off.


I guess it's almost impossible to argue without deciding somehow how the time travel works. Does it make parallel worlds that you return to when something changed? Does it self-rectify? Because the Edict of Time exists, I would think that the past can be changed, because it's changing in some way to make you worthy of death. I guess I agree with you, that the universe will tend toward non-time travel outcomes. But what if...I dunno, what if you could prove to your DM that you could do what you planned? I guess this goes into your "first battle without backup" comments. You're fighting a really big enemy, and losing. What if you played out teleporting away from the enemy (and interacting if he had D. Anchor up or something) and then going back in time, getting the item, Time Hopping in, etc. If you proved that it could happen, and if it didn't happen then it would because that's what you plan to do, then what happens: Does the second iteration gain the assistance of the first, while the first had none, or because that WOULD have happened if no backup had arrived for the first (so backup arrives for the second, but backup would have arrived for the second anyway because after the battle the first (had he received backup originally) would have gone back to be the backup for the second) and in either case the second gets the aid of the first, would the universe accept that aid will appear in this battle and so create the appropriate loop for the first as well?



In the self-consistent model it could happen, but you have no way of guaranteeing that it will happen. The problem is basically that there are multiple solutions, and you're letting the universe pick for you. Its sort of like relying on your enemy to have a fatal heart-attack at just the right time to save your life.

Now, that said, there's no reason why you couldn't posit spells/powers in D&D that encourage the universe to create non-trivial but self-consistent time loops. But its not like I can say 'well here's how you do it in real life, so this is how the spell would work' :)

Connecting to what I said above, I think the best way to make this "work" would be to narrow down those multiple solutions. In a fight, help might arrive, or it might not. If you can somehow argue that the same help would arrive either way, I think it's fair to say that the help would arrive no matter what, because you've removed the "help doesn't arrive" option. But then that runs the risk of changing the (short-lived) future of the case where help didn't arrive and the enemy won.

EDIT:

Nettlekid

You want serious? Ahh, I thought you had to be joking because of the many ways an epic character can be killed that nature does on a regular basis.

piece of rock, about 50m across, coming down at about 30,000kph hits where the PC is standing. Other, smaller pieces hit where the PC's replacement pieces are. As they come down, they cause a magical influx that travels along all existing magical/psionic paths (say to where the the PCs other or contingent backups are) and delivers equal damage.

Or you could have an epic caster come in and use an epic spell that traps everyone currently under the effect of a temporal effect in a null-time trap, DC being somewhere around a +200 will save. PC isn't killed and isn't harmed, so a lot of effects that would otherwise trip don't. And as the PC isn't technically dead they can't be raised/resurrected.

Or you could have someone with similar powers play the same game the PC is, but supplying support to the PCs enemies without showing themselves. As such, each time the PC does something that would otherwise break the game, their unknown advisary counters at the same time keeping things equal (or balanced against the character). If they are epic also and started doing this first, odds are they would have their counters in place before the PC starts looking and would be doing the same "Go back in time and block it" that the PC does, but they have the advantage of having done so first, so they stop each attempt by the PC. Course they also make sure the PC is killed to avoid having to continue doing this.

That's the first five minutes of planning. If I was the DM and working on making better list because the player was breaking the game, it would be more extensive.

P.S. Gods only die if the DM wants them to be able to die. If they died to Epic characters in general they wouldn't be much of Gods, now would they?

You've never contemplated TO, have you? Or...well, even a nonoptimized high level caster.

Piece of Rock? Piece of cake. Polymorph Any Object turns it into a pebble. Use Time Stop/Temporal Acceleration if you're worried about the speed. And the Save Game trick survives that anyway by virtue of not existing until it's needed.

Any Epic caster using temporal magic like that is probably going to be chased down by the Edict of Time himself. We'd be teaming up if anything. Even if I'm in a nasty trap like that, again, the Save Game trick will activate and reset. Then I make sure I'm not around for that Epic Caster. Or I go back and kill him as a baby.

If I've changed anything in the past so that the present is different, anyone in the present will not be aware of the change. To change anything "back" will force the NPC to suffer the same Edict of Time as I am, because he's not fixing my mistake, he's making one of his own. And if they're Epic and have been doing these things first, then by your own logic they should be long dead, Edict'd out.

Maybe you should have spent more than five minutes of planning. Because so far, Edict isn't looking too almighty. I also forgot that this Psion who's abusing Temporal Reiteration might as well have Timeless Body on at all times, which means that absolutely nothing helpful or harmful can affect him. So that's one more thing to get through.

And a 1st level Commoner only dies if the DM wants it to. The DM can say "yes" or "no" to anything. But that Commoner has stats, and so do the Gods. The DM can say "no" to your move which kills the God, but with the same legitimacy as saying "no" when you Power Word Kill Joe Wood.

[Segev]

Yeah, the time hop is for convenience; this CAN be achieved without it. You just have to Capstone back before you lose this fight. So you go back 17 days, knowing that what you tried didn't work, and you plan out how to try again, this time plannign to incorporate a second "you" into it, as well. You'll show up at the start of the fight and talk to yourself about your new strategy, since what he's about to try won't work.

If things are going bad, you both pop back, using your Capstone, and try again. Or, perhaps, you pop FORWARD due to the Capstone duration running out, and then use it to pop backwards 34 days, so you arrive with your past self popping back 17. The two of you work together to re-plan this, since your lone plan didn't work. Repeat as needed until you win. There's one more of you each time you try this, until you figure out how to make it work. Then, having finally won, you go ahead and pop forward however far you snap to at this point.

Note: The final version will go through, in tihs example, 9 backsteps, each 17 days long. This fight takes 153 days, or just about 5 months, for him to get through completely. Sure, much of that time is spent repeatedly going over the same plan, refining your part in it for the next leg of the fight from your perspective, but it's still a full-out war mode for you.

[Nettlekid]

Yeah, the time hop is for convenience; this CAN be achieved without it. You just have to Capstone back before you lose this fight. So you go back 17 days, knowing that what you tried didn't work, and you plan out how to try again, this time plannign to incorporate a second "you" into it, as well. You'll show up at the start of the fight and talk to yourself about your new strategy, since what he's about to try won't work.

If things are going bad, you both pop back, using your Capstone, and try again. Or, perhaps, you pop FORWARD due to the Capstone duration running out, and then use it to pop backwards 34 days, so you arrive with your past self popping back 17. The two of you work together to re-plan this, since your lone plan didn't work. Repeat as needed until you win. There's one more of you each time you try this, until you figure out how to make it work. Then, having finally won, you go ahead and pop forward however far you snap to at this point.

Note: The final version will go through, in tihs example, 9 backsteps, each 17 days long. This fight takes 153 days, or just about 5 months, for him to get through completely. Sure, much of that time is spent repeatedly going over the same plan, refining your part in it for the next leg of the fight from your perspective, but it's still a full-out war mode for you.

I like this interpretation. It's very Dave from Homestuck-ish, which is sort of what I was imagining. I do wonder what happens to that first timeline though. Does it just get erased, having never happened that way?

[Segev]

I like this interpretation. It's very Dave from Homestuck-ish, which is sort of what I was imagining.One of these days, I really should read Homestuck.


I do wonder what happens to that first timeline though. Does it just get erased, having never happened that way?

That's a good question.

There are, effectively, N+1 loops, where N is the final number of you that participate in that fight.

Let's do this from the perspective of the "you from the original timeline." That's the version that tried this solo, initially, then hopped back and picked up one more of "you" each time he looped. He sees N different versions of the fight happen, each one with +1 "you" participating, and each one trying a new strategy revolving around having that iteration's count of "you" there.

He, in theory, goes on past this loop, happy in his victory, after all of this is done.

Now, I said there are effectively N+1 loops. Let's look at the "last" one. This is from the perspective of "you," wherein "you" start the fight, and N-1 other "you"s show up, telling you how the plan is going to go. The fight is won, and this "you" goes back to start his 17-day lead-up to his second run through this version of the loop. He spends that 17-day period going over the known-to-be-winning plan with the other N-2 of you that are here (since the 1st one, which he was just moments before, is off doing whatever you were doing 17 days before Atropus fell). This "you" will go through the fight a second time, and pop back to be the "third" iteration, going over the plans again.

Effectively, that N+1th loop is "you" going through it knowing that the plan works, because your time-clones pop in and tell you it will, then you pop back and become each of them in turn, going through each part of the plan, yourself, until you win. "You" then go on, forward in time, and experience an otherwise-indistinguishable timeline from that which the original "you" we discussed experiences.

However, "your" memory, from the N+1th loop, is of every fight having been a victory executed according to a plan you initially only got your part of passed to you by the other "you"s that showed up, but through which you played every role.

The memory of "your"s from the "first" version - the one of "you" that initially tried it by yourself - is one of N-1 losses, followed by finally winning.

The "last" version of "you" - the N+1st loop's, remembers one victory, N times, from N perspectives.



You could argue that each of those timelines where "you" lost actually went on without "you" and had Atropus destroy everything, but "you" hopped out of each of them. Meanwhile, if we assume that each "you" from each loop that our "first" version of "you" picked up as he looped through his N-1 losses experienced something similar to what your "last" version did on the leading end, they saw their iteration's worth of "you" appear to lay out a new plan to try, and, when that failed, jumped back to loop through another version that picked up one more.

You wind up with N-1 "failed" timelines where Atropus won, and N+1 timelines where "you" won. But, each of those timelines differs, going forward, only by the memories "you" have. As each is "you" having seen a different number of "you" appear in that first loop.

As a practical matter, which version you remember is irrelevant. The N+1st, by the way, exists because the versions of "you" that saw defeats prior to that iteration go back and agree that THIS Plan works.


Actually, I think it unspools even worse than that.



So, long story short: There are a number of possible ways you can remember it going, depending on how many iterations of fail you saw before a winning strategy is hit upon. The loop following the first a winning strategy is hit upon is the stable one, because the jump-back in that one will have all agreeing that THIS is the winning plan, and each jump-back now is to confirm it ,rather than having the ones who jumped back all try to work out a NEW plan, relying on the oldest of "you" to tell them what has already been tried.


Time travel gives people headaches for a reason. If you don't assume bifurcation, you have to assume that the stable time loop is the one that survives, and the others either collapse as a superimposed set of memories onto the one "you" that remains, or that they all fade away and "you" only remember the stable version because the other versions 'dox out of existence by never happening except for the traces left that ARE the stable parts of the plan.

[Nettlekid]

I think I agree with you up until we get to the last iteration, because the way you have it, we end up with ten selves from alternate timelines, which you say would either be destroyed or coalesce or something. We also have the perspective of the first Psion having fought the same fight ten times, while the last one fights it only once. I think it would make much more sense that they all fight it ten times. From the point of view of the first one, nine others appear, and they all fight. After the battle, nine of them poof away to fight again alongside a new member back in time, while the tenth one (who has just finished his 10th fight) continues on his timeline. Imagining the timeline, there's a big loopy knot where it redoubles on itself ten times, but apart from that it's a single stream, as opposed to like...a rope being woven together by many threads that come from somewhere else, which is what the "start with one, go back and get two, and so on" method would end up as.

I know this doesn't solve the "how do you know this happens at all as opposed to just losing the battle, what determines that there are ten of the Psions" stuff, but it seems more temporally stable than the other, which is more...Futurama style.

Then again, come to think of it, if we do end up with ten Psions at the end of it, the Edict of Time can swoop in and kill nine of them, the nine who are currently living in a drastically altered timeline compared to the one where their enemy won due to lack of numbers, and leaves the tenth one who hasn't actually traveled through time at all and hasn't messed up his personal timeline.

[Renen]

@River
She spoils things because in her past doctor tells he she spoils them.
As for flying the tardis better, while the doctor is good, she was personally "taught" by the tardis. That essentially downloaded the entiredy of piloting skills into her brain.

[Vaz]

The Psionic Save Game trick might work for you. I like it on an Ardent, but it works with Psion better. Howevwr Ardent Mantles are pretty good, and with Substitute Power and Synchronicity abuse (DM dependent), tome is your female dog.

The trick is to have a Psicrystal be able to use some form of Detection spell to detect your presence, (Imbue with Spell ability), then be time hopped into the future with a contingent Anticipatory Strike ready for when it pops out of the time stream, after using Forced Dream to be able to revert time. This resets the Psicrystal to the "turn" before, but because the Time Hop made the Psicrystals turn to be the one where it fell out of the time stream, everything that happened to the party in that period not happen.

[Raven777]

3. Attempts to screw up the timeline by communicating the future to any participants will be dealt with severely by the combined might of ALL the deific pantheons. The future is not something that anyone besides the deities are authorized to communicate to mortals. Period. They view it as copyright infringement.

To an epic character, that just sounds like... challenge accepted.


The way it'd wind up playing out in "real time" to the other PCs is that your character would show up just in time to help out as needed, and spend a lot of time not-around while time catches up with him.

However, as the party plays through times he's not allowed to "be" normally, they can announce that they're going to make a note to tell you to show back up "now" when they see you again. The DM will then check with you and, if you agree, you'd appear shortly thereafter. Sometimes, the DM might even have you appear with a message he gives you that's presumably from the party's future selves.

You'd be around for interesting, plot-important bits, with time-traveller foreknowledge. And, if enough time went by "slow," you'd be caught up and able to participate normally again. But I imagine you'll do a LOT of temporal popping in and out to navigate your 17-day window of "no-go" by getting further into the future.

So, basically, you'd be Dave from Homestuck.

[Nettlekid]

To an epic character, that just sounds like... challenge accepted.


See, that's exactly what I mean. Tippy's builds can wipe the floor with deities. This wouldn't need to be quite as powerful as that, but it probably wouldn't be far off. If you've been living for an indeterminate amount of time, thousands of years, you're bound to have tricks. I'm thinking StP Erudite would be the most powerful entry to this. I won't even begin to go into the potential paradoxes of coming back from the future and using Psychic Chirurgery to give yourself new powers known, and in five minutes you then go back to give to yourself five minutes ago. That's a classic "where did the information come from" paradox.



So, basically, you'd be Dave from Homestuck.

Yeah, that is my ideal use of time-travel shenanigans. Homestuck just kind of ignores (or gives a playful nod) to paradoxes, but it's something this character would have to figure out. Like, in the above example with the Psion fighting Atropus where he decides he's not enough firepower on his own and so he goes back in time, then waits until the battle starts again and goes to help out the second iteration of himself, that's a bit like when the Sburb Beta disk was stolen, and Dave sees a corpse of himself who had traveled back in time to intercept the thief, only to be killed, and our Dave decides "Umm, not gonna try that." In this case, the Dave who got killed is the first Psion, and our Dave is the second. It's like that because there needs to be no stable time loop, no logical "after the battle's done Psion 2 goes back and does what Psion 1 did, alongside a new Psion 3 who is doing what Psion 2 did, while Psion 1 continues on after the battle." The first Psion does something, and the second one sees him do it, but there is no need to do the same thing, especially if the job is done. In this case I would think that the Edict of Time, much like the whole Doomed Timeline thing in Homestuck, would kill off any extra Psions who deviated from the path (in this case Psion 1, who

OR, the method works by creating stable time loops in which Psion 2 sees Psion 1 do something, and knows that he must later go there and do it himself. This is like all the stuff Dave did with the LOHAC stock exchange, or even more simply when he said that to determine if Terezi was trustworthy he would come back with a thumbs up, and "I don't see any-oh wait he's hiding behind the pillar." To a minor degree it's also a bit like most of Karkat's chats with his past and future selves, like the more recent one where he berates his future self for typing in red, then decides to do it himself, and is later berated by his past self for typing in red. To bring it back to our Psion(s?), when fighting Atropus, multiple Psions appear next to Psion 1. After the battle, all but the oldest disappear to go become the next member of the chain. This is the method I prefer, because it's self-contained and leaves no loose ends, but it does raise the problem of "why did multiple Psions appear if 'the lone Psion dies and no one is left to come back and help' is also a valid outcome?" Wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey.

[Grayson01]

What about combining this Capstone Power with mind Seed! Going back in Time over and over and Seeding key people before they were Key people with all the memories of what they did to become Key people so you can have army of Mind Seeds who go forward in time leveling up so that you can confront the Big Bad with an army of yourself who are just as powerful and maybe wiser from the time spent in the past, untill they turn on you after the final battle that is.

OH WHAT IF HE MINDSEED HIMSELF AT HIS LOWEST AGE So that he could be even more powerful then his is at this point??