The Order will WIN

[Lord]

Given the most recent strip, it seems as if Roy and co are beating back the enemy army pretty well. No doubt Tarquin is expecting them to be worn down, but that's where I think things will utterly defy his expectations.

Think about Haley and Belkar's fight with Bozzok. A critical part of that victory was the fact that Bozzok's men weren't just mindless mooks who were willing to die for their boss' fleeting tactical advantage. Given that Roy and co seem to be doing pretty well for themselves, having slaughtered dozens of infantry within a single comic, and combined with Haley and Elan's support, I think that Tarquin's men are going to rout after a bit.

Once Elan and Haley start attacking the archers, and it becomes clear that attacking the Order is a one way ticket to loosing your torso/free will, I think that his men are going to run away, leaving Tarquin to face down the order alone.

What do you think?

[Kish]

I think Tarquin's better at inspiring loyalty* than Bozzok is.

*By which I mean, making his soldiers terrified of the hideous, unspeakable death that awaits them should they flee from combat and survive.

[Xelbiuj]

What do you think?

Not that.
I doubt Tarquin is any nicer to his soldiers than Roman Centurions.
Retreat, AWOL, surrender, etc . . . probably results in your family being staked to the ground and burnt alive.
A quick death from Roy is almost certainly superior than running away.

[Amphiox]

Bringing up the Bozzok example is actually quite interesting.

Recall how Haley had said to Bozzok that he couldn't sneak attack her without at least a 4 level advantage, and then he proceeded to do exactly that, demonstrating that he had 4 levels of Rogue on her?

Haley was at least level 15 at that time, meaning Bozzok had to be at least level 19 if he was pure rogue, ie near epic or possibly even low-epic, which puts him exactly into the same level category as Tarquin and his party.

And Belkar completely pwned Bozzok in single combat (btw, is that mechanistically plausible in D&D, for a badly optimized pure combat class character to utterly dominate a rogue 4 or more levels higher in a single combat?)

[Amphiox]

What do you think?

Not that.
I doubt Tarquin is any nicer to his soldiers than Roman Centurions.
Retreat, AWOL, surrender, etc . . . probably results in your family being staked to the ground and burnt alive.
A quick death from Roy is almost certainly superior than running away.

When Roman legions retreated against order, broke ranks, etc, the guilty legion was decimated. ie, every 10th member of the legion was summarily executed.

Their families were not, to my knowledge, usually punished as well, other than by the social shaming of having a member disgraced in this fashion.

[Xelbiuj]

When Roman legions retreated against order, broke ranks, etc, the guilty legion was decimated. ie, every 10th member of the legion was summarily executed.

Their families were not, to my knowledge, usually punished as well, other than by the social shaming of having a member disgraced in this fashion.

I wasn't say that's what the Romans did.

[dancrilis]

Haley was at least level 15 at that time, meaning Bozzok had to be at least level 19 if he was pure rogue, ie near epic or possibly even low-epic, which puts him exactly into the same level category as Tarquin and his party.
I am not sure about your guesstimate of the levels - but fine.



And Belkar completely pwned Bozzok in single combat (btw, is that mechanistically plausible in D&D, for a badly optimized pure combat class character to utterly dominate a rogue 4 or more levels higher in a single combat?)
Yes it is.
But it is also by my guesstimate that Belkar might be the highest level in the order.

[Quorothorn]

And Belkar completely pwned Bozzok in single combat (btw, is that mechanistically plausible in D&D, for a badly optimized pure combat class character to utterly dominate a rogue 4 or more levels higher in a single combat?)

Sure. A Rogue that can't get SA damage is nigh-useless in battle without some ingenuity.

[Chantelune]

Level wise, the order certainly have an advantage, but the issue here is attrition. As it was explained just before the Azure city fight, even if the mooks needs to roll a natural 20 to hit, every number of them will manage to do some bit of damage. And right now, the order is short of healing option. Durkon can no longer convert heals on the fly and he might have run out of potion. All other members already said they were out.

The mook army just have to keep pressing, even if one in 20 mook manage to land a hit, the order can only hold for so long without healing. Durkon have better chances, thanks to his damage reduction and fast healing, but it looks bad for Roy and worse for Belkar. They can't beat the whole army, they need a way out and somehow, waiting for the night seems unlikely depending on the current time. But there's a good chance that V will join in the fray as soon as she's freed from the lower planes. She's still pretty much full of spells, I kind of suspect that this was another reason for her absence so far, aside for making the pyramid more difficult for the order.

[Amphiox]

I am not sure about your guesstimate of the levels - but fine.


Yes it is.
But it is also by my guesstimate that Belkar might be the highest level in the order.

The last time it was explicitly mentioned in the comic, though, Belkar was actually just a little bit less than a level behind the others, thanks to his poor choice of multiclassing to barbarian....

Though he managed to make up for it by inventing a dramatic sob-story....

[Yadugara]

I dont play D&D so i dont know the mechanics very good but of course they can kill dozens of mooks at this point,they are pretty high-level now and Durkon got his vampire-"upgrade",which seems to let him ignore the arrows.(Is this right?)
BUT Tarquin has at least 2 high-level characters on his side and he has shown to handle the Order alone with little effort before.So,with Belkar being useless because of low HP,and only 4 members of the Order ready to fight they have no chance against Tarquin + 2 members of his pary + the remaining army.
Dont get me wrong,i dont think they will die now,but winning without help from anyone else (V,Sabine,...),isnt possible.

[Chantelune]

It was also indicated that the level that Belkar got back in Azure City, that was immediately drained by a wight, was the only one he managed to get since at least the conquest, maybe even before that, as he couldn't actually help in any battle that didn't involved undeads.

So unless he already had a couple level more than the others, I think he's either in the average or a bit behind.

And he didn't powned Bozok, he avoid both his and Crystal's attack for a few rounds (using a shield to boost his ac) until bozok decided to run after Haley. He did outpowered Crystal in single combat, though, but she was just a bit above Haley in level thanks for being an archnemesis and as said, rogue and assassins are not that good in duels. They're way more efficient when having a flank and/or getting surprises attack.

Even a lvl 19 rogue might have a hard time against one competent fighter. And Bozok got flanked by Haley and Belkar in the end. Even one on one versus Haley, without the flanking, he couldn't do that much damage to Haley.

[dancrilis]

The last time it was explicitly mentioned in the comic, though, Belkar was actually just a little bit less than a level behind the others, thanks to his poor choice of multiclassing to barbarian....

Though he managed to make up for it by inventing a dramatic sob-story....

That is one interpretation, and it may be a valid one.
However Belkar never says he was lower than them - only that they leveled up and he did not. Which could be an indication of a higher level than they were.
Elan than (after he leveled up) mentioned that the challenging had to be around the same level, and Belkar responded with 'same level', further implying that they were only now the same level. At which point Belkar leveled up.

This is also supported by the use of Holy Word which deafened Belkar - implying that he is the same level as Durkon's caster level for that spell (which would be above his actual level if he had the good domain, or any items to assist him).

But as the comic follows the narrative rather than a rule set all of this is circumstantial at best - Belkar is the level he needs to be, so is everyone else, whether higher of lower.

[Finwe]

The Order can not achieve victory through combat. Even if they destroy the entire army, Tarquin and his friends are in their high teens or low 20's, and at least one of them is a powerful caster with (presumably) a lot of power points left, and the ability to quickly summon the remaining two members. They need either a means of retreat, reinforcements, or clever negotiation to survive.

[Chantelune]

Elan than (after he leveled up) mentioned that the challenging had to be around the same level, and Belkar responded with 'same level', further implying that they were only now the same level. At which point Belkar leveled up.

Belkar just repeated part of elan's phrase, that's hardly a proof that they were the exact same level at the time, just that they're close in levels and thus, elan would provide a good enough CR to give the bit of xp he needed.

If you want to go that way, Elan says that Belkar was probably a little behind them xp wise, which could imply that they all started at the same level. :smalltongue:

[Scurvy Cur]

Bringing up the Bozzok example is actually quite interesting.

Recall how Haley had said to Bozzok that he couldn't sneak attack her without at least a 4 level advantage, and then he proceeded to do exactly that, demonstrating that he had 4 levels of Rogue on her?

Haley was at least level 15 at that time, meaning Bozzok had to be at least level 19 if he was pure rogue, ie near epic or possibly even low-epic, which puts him exactly into the same level category as Tarquin and his party.

And Belkar completely pwned Bozzok in single combat (btw, is that mechanistically plausible in D&D, for a badly optimized pure combat class character to utterly dominate a rogue 4 or more levels higher in a single combat?)

Perfectly plausible, especially since the rogue was, himself, poorly-optimized, and had thrown away some of his prior advantage. Due to his likely class layout, he was getting 3 attacks per round for 1d10 + 1.5x strength + enhancement bonus damage. Bozz may have been looking at an average of 10-20 damage per hit, depending on what those two modifiers were. Significant, but not anywhere near as frightening as that number plus possibly as much as 10d6 sneak attack damage. Too, his AB was not the best, given 3/4 progression for most of his levels, and being excluded from some of the better +AB feats. On top of that, his strength may have been somewhat limited (even adjusting for half orcishness) if he wanted to maintain decent dexterity for light armor use, decent int (while overcoming the half-Orc penalty) and enough wisdom to stay on top in a place like Greysky City. So he may have been lucky to hit Belkar more than once a round.

Contrast Belkar, who has full AB for his level, an established ability to one-shot low level rogues (implying a fair bit of damage per hit), and Favored Enemy (Things That Scream when you stab them), as well as a demonstrated decent ish AC. It was essentially a fight between a guy who had a lot of levels but a class distribution that made him great at dishing out the hurt in massive chunks while his friends were around (a great way to express the build of a murderously bullying guild leader), but a bit of a dilettante in one on one combat versus a guy with fewer levels, but a much better setup (and personality) for a one on one death match. Belkar was in his element. Bozz didn't have enough flunkies present to be in his.

[littlebum2002]

Even a lvl 19 rogue might have a hard time against one competent fighter. And Bozok got flanked by Haley and Belkar in the end. Even one on one versus Haley, without the flanking, he couldn't do that much damage to Haley.

I'm another "not D&D player" trying to comment on D&D mechanics, so I'm probably way off on this, but I'd imagine Bozok would have feats which optimize his skill at stealing things, not his skill at fighting. So while he is optimized for sneaking, hiding, running, etc., Belkar is optimized for killing. Well, at least as optimized as a Ranger/Barbarian can be



EDIT: Somewhat ninja'd

[Mike Havran]

From D&D mechanics perspective, Belkar is the lamest character ever. He only defeats stuff because plot demands it.

[Kish]

From D&D mechanics perspective, Belkar is the lamest character ever. He only defeats stuff because plot demands it.
An odd view for such a dedicated fan of a character who appears to be a single-classed fighter to take.

[Emanick]

An odd view for such a dedicated fan of a character who appears to be a single-classed fighter to take.

Roy is much better at dealing out massive amounts of damage to individual or multiple opponents than Belkar is, and since Belkar's main priority is dealing out massive amounts of damage, from most perspectives Belkar is comparatively lame in a mechanical sense.

[Morty]

From D&D mechanics perspective, Belkar is the lamest character ever. He only defeats stuff because plot demands it.

If D&D rules don't allow for a knife-fighter to be effective without jumping through a dozen hoops... then I would say the fault lies in the terribly-written rules, not the story that chooses to include an effective knife-fighter.

[Scurvy Cur]

Ehhh. Disagree there. Bozzok's build was almost certainly much lamer. Crystal's build Definitely was. She's a rogue-assassin who is dumb as a sack of hammers. Bozzok has no AC, his damage is situational, and his HP pool is more reliant on d6s than a game of Risk. Crystal is pretty much a rogue with fewer skill points, and safer use of poison. She's too dumb to have assassin spells, and her death attack DCs are going to be laughable.

Belkar is far from optimal, and we know that Roy is a much better straight up fighter than he is, but he does make excellent use of per-hit damage boosts. I could see a Belkar with +strength items, humanoid bane daggers, and good favored enemy selection being a reasonable threat to any target with a low enough AC for him to land most of his 6+ attacks per round. Little bonuses add up.

It's too bad rogues with no good defensive multiclassing are so hard to hit. Oh wait...

[Scurvy Cur]

If D&D rules don't allow for a knife-fighter to be effective without jumping through a dozen hoops... then I would say the fault lies in the terribly-written rules, not the story that chooses to include an effective knife-fighter.

They do allow for reasonably good knife fighters, actually. Doesn't even take much work. The secret lies in the fact that dual wielded weapons deal less die damage (usually), but get more attacks per round. This means that when you get bonuses to damage that count on each attack, dual wielders get more mileage out of them. So stack enough of those on a character with two knives (damage bonuses on weapons, strength bonuses, feats that add damage, sneak attack, etc.) and you get some massive damage output. Add in a feat like Improved Feint and you have a nasty DPS melee character. All without straying outside the PHB.

Belkar is definitely not making the most of any of this, but that's not to say a knife fighter isn't manageable.

[Chantelune]

I'm another "not D&D player" trying to comment on D&D mechanics, so I'm probably way off on this, but I'd imagine Bozok would have feats which optimize his skill at stealing things, not his skill at fighting. So while he is optimized for sneaking, hiding, running, etc., Belkar is optimized for killing. Well, at least as optimized as a Ranger/Barbarian can be


Yes and no. There's not much "combat" skills as it is, those are usually managed by feats, which comes less often (one feat every 3 levels for most classes for several skills points every lvl depending on the class). But yeah, there's a good chance Bozok took feats that might help him stay on top of the guild instead of getting more damage.

But unless he have a way to hide or get invisible each round, a rogue can't sneak attack by himself without an ally flanking. And the only way to hide by yourself during a fight is taking a level of shadowdancer, which grant the feat "hide in plain sight", allowing to roll for hide even when observed, though you'd technically need to disengage and have a shadow nearby (which was pointed out as a fatal flaw in such a build in a stick figure comic with no shadows :p)

The second thing is that rogues usually depends on their dex and light armor for defense. When flanked, the dex bonus is cancelled, so that's a drop in ac, leaving only the light armor, which is not as good as heavy, even when using mithril and the like.

So yeah, Bozok might have seemed impressive and strong, and he probably was for a rogue, but as shown during the fights, he wasn't that good a fighter and when deprived of the flanking tactic, even having 4+ lvl on Haley wasnt enough to actually be a big threat to her. So Belkar would have the upper hand quite easily.

[Mike Havran]

An odd view for such a dedicated fan of a character who appears to be a single-classed fighter to take.Um ... why?

[F.Harr]

Given the most recent strip, it seems as if Roy and co are beating back the enemy army pretty well. No doubt Tarquin is expecting them to be worn down, but that's where I think things will utterly defy his expectations.

Think about Haley and Belkar's fight with Bozzok. A critical part of that victory was the fact that Bozzok's men weren't just mindless mooks who were willing to die for their boss' fleeting tactical advantage. Given that Roy and co seem to be doing pretty well for themselves, having slaughtered dozens of infantry within a single comic, and combined with Haley and Elan's support, I think that Tarquin's men are going to rout after a bit.

Once Elan and Haley start attacking the archers, and it becomes clear that attacking the Order is a one way ticket to loosing your torso/free will, I think that his men are going to run away, leaving Tarquin to face down the order alone.

What do you think?

I think I love your confidence and hope that it works out.

"The mook army just have to keep pressing, even if one in 20 mook manage to land a hit, the order can only hold for so long without healing."

If it's a NATO-sized division, that's a LOT of mooks.

[Doug Lampert]

I dont play D&D so i dont know the mechanics very good but of course they can kill dozens of mooks at this point,they are pretty high-level now and Durkon got his vampire-"upgrade",which seems to let him ignore the arrows.(Is this right?)

Not quite completely, but VERY Very close to the ability to completely ignore those crossbows.

Durkon is probably a level 14 cleric. He averages 96.5 HP.

His armor class went up by 6 or more and is now probably 27 prior to ANY magic or magic items (clerics are one of the best classes at boosting AC). The odds are overwhelming that he can be hit only on a natural 20.

He has concealment from the dust, so 20% of those natural 20s still miss.

He gets damage reduction 10 against any weapon attack that is not good and silver (aka probably all of them here). Crossbows do 1d8 or 1d6 damage and thus can't hurt him except on a critical hit. They crit for double damage, but since they can only hit Durkon on a natural 20 and need to hit both the initial and confirming roll and get through concealment a grand total of one in 500 bolts should have any chance of doing damage.

Let's assume heavy crossbows, so those actual crits average 0.875 actual damage (the average is 9-10, but you ignore rolls of less than 0 so they will still do some damage).

But Durkon has fast healing 5. Which means that if there are 2,858 crossbowmen per round shooting at him they should actually damage him about as fast as he heals!

But heavy crossbows shoot once every two rounds (and lights are worse because while they shoot every round they need to roll an 11 or 12 on 2d6 to do any damage at all and thus average 0.111... damage per crit), so Durkon can probably take the attacks of 5,000 or so such crossbowmen more or less forever.

If 6,000 heavy crossbowmen empty their quivers shooting at Durkon and only Durkon then he'd have a net damage of 15 or so of his 96 or so HP at the moment they ran out of bolts, then he'd heal from that in 3 more rounds.

[Wayson]

Sooner or later Roy's gonna go down. Durkon can't heal him with spells, and he doesn't have infinite potions. I predicted a few days ago that either Durkon has some omni-death spell in Malack's staff, the party jumps into the Rift, or they get unexpected reinforcements like V or Sabine. To this, I might add a fourth possibility, that Tarquin for whatever reason rescinds the kill order. I view this last as unlikely, but plot might demand it.

We see a giant circle of mooks around Roy, with even MORE mooks maneuvering in formation outside of the scrum. But let's say that they whack every mook on the field. Then what? Tarquin would have no compunctions AT ALL about gutting Roy like a fish. As for Durkula, Tarquin has been teamed up with a vampire cleric for decades. You think he doesn't have a contingency ready to deal with one? He almost certainly does. It would be one more thing for Elan to brood over, which is a plus. He could sneeze on Belkar and kill him. Then it's just Elan and Haley. We already know that Tarquin can take them both down, because we've seen him do exactly that.

The Order is getting ground-pounded here. Leave your optimism at the door.

[Zach J.]

Not quite completely, but VERY Very close to the ability to completely ignore those crossbows.

Durkon is probably a level 14 cleric. He averages 96.5 HP.

His armor class went up by 6 or more and is now probably 27 prior to ANY magic or magic items (clerics are one of the best classes at boosting AC). The odds are overwhelming that he can be hit only on a natural 20.

He has concealment from the dust, so 20% of those natural 20s still miss.

He gets damage reduction 10 against any weapon attack that is not good and silver (aka probably all of them here). Crossbows do 1d8 or 1d6 damage and thus can't hurt him except on a critical hit. They crit for double damage, but since they can only hit Durkon on a natural 20 and need to hit both the initial and confirming roll and get through concealment a grand total of one in 500 bolts should have any chance of doing damage.

Let's assume heavy crossbows, so those actual crits average 0.875 actual damage (the average is 9-10, but you ignore rolls of less than 0 so they will still do some damage).

But Durkon has fast healing 5. Which means that if there are 2,858 crossbowmen per round shooting at him they should actually damage him about as fast as he heals!

But heavy crossbows shoot once every two rounds (and lights are worse), so Durkon can probably take the attacks of 5,000 or so such crossbowmen more or less forever.

If 6,000 heavy crossbowmen empty their quivers shooting at Durkon and only Durkon then he'd have a net damage of 15 or so of his 96 or so HP at the moment they ran out of bolts, then he'd heal from that in 3 more rounds.

As a vampire, Durkon is immune to the extra damage from a critical hit. He's actually immune to critical hits in general.

[Dwy]

I'm dying to see how V eventually will contribute to the situation. An escape plan possibly?

And how will the IFCC, Sabine and Qarr mess up the situation further?

[Chantelune]

I'm dying to see how V eventually will contribute to the situation. An escape plan possibly?

And how will the IFCC, Sabine and Qarr mess up the situation further?

V having no teleport option, I seem mostly her intervention causing chaos in the ranks of the army if she starts spamming fireballs and such. It might still create an opening for the order to get out of being surrounded, but outrunning them all seems near impossible.

[Dwy]

Does V remember reptilian from his/her time as a lizard? Could the Order ride off into the sunset aboard the enemy's dinosaurs if the comic takes an odd turn or three?

[Chantelune]

Does V remember reptilian from his/her time as a lizard? Could the Order ride off into the sunset aboard the enemy's dinosaurs if the comic takes an odd turn or three?

Doubtful as V didn't realised she was talking in reptilian when hexed, only by trying to talk with the others did she came to that conclusion. I don't think the hexe granted her the langage past that event. :smalltongue:

[Dwy]

I still believe that is how this encounter would have ended if Elan, Thog and the monster in the dark were set up as the main characters of the story. Then there would be puppies, ice cream and bright lights all around.

[Emanick]

I expect V to come to the rescue here. Assuming Tarquin and his party don't get involved, Durkon should be absolutely fine and Belkar, assuming the current status quo continues, should remain safe. The real problem is Roy. It looks as though most of the archers have stopped shooting at him, presumably to avoid friendly fire, but Roy can only last so long against several thousand mooks. He can kill hundreds, certainly, perhaps thousands if he figures out a way to use Durkon's Dominated soldiers to his advantage, but he probably can't defeat Tarquin's entire army.

What he can plausibly do, though, is last several minutes against the horde. And that's all he needs to do in order to survive until V's time is up.

A 15th level wizard with most of hir spells remaining is a force to be reckoned with. This is one of those situations where Vaarsuvius's vast arcane power will neither overshadow the main characters nor impede the main plot. Our favorite pointy-eared spellcaster has done virtually nothing during the course of the book, and for once, hir abilities are roughly on par with what is called for in this situation. S/he needs a chance to shine, badly, as well as a way to begin to make up for the massive damage s/he caused with Familicide. What better way to do so than by saving the rest of the Order from the mess that s/he helped get it into?

Of course, if a high-level wizard appears and begins tearing up the landscape of Girard's Crater, Tarquin and his fellow party members may decide to intervene personally. But even they probably can't be cavalier about engaging a 15th level wizard, and I'm not sure how personally invested they are in ensuring that two-thirds the Order dies, right here, right now. At this point, I expect The Giant to do the usual and pull something marvelous and original out of his storytelling bag that I never anticipated. The important thing for now is that there is a way for the Order to defeat the massive army now engaging them, at least theoretically. One problem at a time.

[Kish]

Um ... why?
Because common Internet wisdom states that using the fighter class as anything other than, maybe, a two-level dip is intrinsically "lame...from a D&D mechanics perspective."

[Mike Havran]

Because common Internet wisdom states that using the fighter class as anything other than, maybe, a two-level dip is intrinsically "lame...from a D&D mechanics perspective."Well, my statement was solely about Belkar's build and not about Fighter class or characters that might have taken levels of it, or about the impact of picking levels of such class on the overall greatness of a character.

[Kish]

Well, my statement was solely about Belkar's build and not about Fighter class or characters that might have taken levels of it, or about the impact of picking levels of such class on the overall greatness of a character.
And a class is not part of a build?

*shrug* I don't think you can talk me out of thinking it's odd; the good news is, you have no real reason to care. :smalltongue:

[dps]

So yeah, Bozok might have seemed impressive and strong, and he probably was for a rogue, but as shown during the fights, he wasn't that good a fighter and when deprived of the flanking tactic, even having 4+ lvl on Haley wasnt enough to actually be a big threat to her. So Belkar would have the upper hand quite easily.

Or, as Belkar put it, "Wow, it's almost like I'm a seasoned warrior and you two are glorified pickpockets".

[Amphiox]

An odd view for such a dedicated fan of a character who appears to be a single-classed fighter to take.

That's why he must, yeah MUST, be a sexy shoeless god of war!

With a build that lame, sure the only way he accomplishes as much as he has in combat so far is by divine miracle... (and not the spell....)

[Amphiox]

I'm dying to see how V eventually will contribute to the situation. An escape plan possibly?

And how will the IFCC, Sabine and Qarr mess up the situation further?

Well, I suppose there's always this possibility:

V returns Soul-spliced back to Haerta (we'll later see a flashback wherein the IFCC and V negotiate for him to get Haerta back for the difference of the time he had with her subtracted from what he had with the other two guys).

And then he casts an epic homebrewed broken necromancy spell (because we all know that's the only thing Haerta will ever bother to cast, naturally) that raises every single mook that Roy and co have killed so far as a zombie army (the cleaved ones rise as TWO zombies, one that bites and another that kicks).

Also, what more fitting way to deal with Tarquin's dinosaurs than with Meteor Swarm?

[TRH]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I've actually become convinced that V will be coming back, if for no other reason than because they've lost any ability to quickly leave the desert and ditch her. That said, she's still not going to be able to do more than get the mooks off the Order's back; the members of Team Tarquin are still way too strong. That said, there's three of them out here, for no particular reason. Considering what just happened to the Linear Guild this arc (finally put together a lineup that was way too powerful for the OOTS to defeat, but fell apart due to infighting), I kind of expect the three members that are here to turn on each other, for some reason. At the minimum, I'd say that Laurin's one of the more likely candidates to off Tarquin at the moment.

[David Argall]

The standard houserule has already been noted here. "It's 6 of you vs an army. I don't care what tricks you have. You run, surrender, or die."
We can debate the number of dead bodies, but combat will not save the party.

[Scow2]

The standard houserule has already been noted here. "It's 6 of you vs an army. I don't care what tricks you have. You run, surrender, or die."
We can debate the number of dead bodies, but combat will not save the party.

That is an obnoxious and railroady houserule that should be punted away.

[Amphiox]

That is an obnoxious and railroady houserule that should be punted away.

Also a completely unnecessary houserule, because the DM has the power to essentially make the army infinite in number. If the players insist on fighting that army, the DM can just call up reinforcements until the players finally run out of resources and die.

If the players ask the DM how many soldiers are in that army, the DM can simply say "too many for you to count".

[Origomar]

Bringing up the Bozzok example is actually quite interesting.

Recall how Haley had said to Bozzok that he couldn't sneak attack her without at least a 4 level advantage, and then he proceeded to do exactly that, demonstrating that he had 4 levels of Rogue on her?

Haley was at least level 15 at that time, meaning Bozzok had to be at least level 19 if he was pure rogue, ie near epic or possibly even low-epic, which puts him exactly into the same level category as Tarquin and his party.

And Belkar completely pwned Bozzok in single combat (btw, is that mechanistically plausible in D&D, for a badly optimized pure combat class character to utterly dominate a rogue 4 or more levels higher in a single combat?)


to be honest optimization is so ridiculous in dnd that even trying to compare this comic to dnd is difficult.

[Scow2]

Also a completely unnecessary houserule, because the DM has the power to essentially make the army infinite in number. If the players insist on fighting that army, the DM can just call up reinforcements until the players finally run out of resources and die.

If the players ask the DM how many soldiers are in that army, the DM can simply say "too many for you to count".

The bigger issue is that, as seen in this case, there's really nowhere for the party to run. Even if they can't kill the entire army, they should still have the freedom to create their own escape/survival - possibly by routing the army entirely.

[Chantelune]

Also a completely unnecessary houserule, because the DM has the power to essentially make the army infinite in number. If the players insist on fighting that army, the DM can just call up reinforcements until the players finally run out of resources and die.

If the players ask the DM how many soldiers are in that army, the DM can simply say "too many for you to count".

Eh, but still, some player will try to count them nonetheless and/or try to somehow win the day... To complain after that they just couldn't win against such odds despite all the obvious warning that were given. :smallbiggrin:

[Skarn]

Also a completely unnecessary houserule, because the DM has the power to essentially make the army infinite in number. If the players insist on fighting that army, the DM can just call up reinforcements until the players finally run out of resources and die.

If the players ask the DM how many soldiers are in that army, the DM can simply say "too many for you to count".
Actually, now I see why the houserule exists. If they're going to railroad the plot anyway they may as well save time on it.

Given the situation they're in, if they chose to fight they could probably hold out almost indefinitely if they make it to nightfall.

Not that it matters; Tarquin and co. are not just going to stand there and let their whole army get slaughtered in front of them. At least, I don't think they would. I expect Tarquin to join the fray if he grows impatient, then the order might have some real trouble.

[Amphiox]

An interesting thing to consider, if they do make it to dusk, and if at that time Tarquin decides to have his own team step into the fray:

The Order will have a numerical advantage in the team vs team matchup.

Belkar will be restored to full constitution.

Team Tarquin will be missing their cleric, while the Order's Cleric will have just refilled all his spells.

That might actually be a winnable situation for the Order. Indeed it might be a situation where Tarquin won't risk his team and choose instead to let the Order go.

[Kish]

Durkon will need an undisturbed hour to renew his spells, unless Rich decides to house-rule that out.

[Reddish Mage]

Durkon will need an undisturbed hour to renew his spells, unless Rich decides to house-rule that out.

Is nothing sacred?

[dancrilis]

Doesn't he only need fifteen minutes, assuming he prepares less than all his spells. Although he would not want to be disturbed in that time.

Actually considering the time of day thing - they really need to be done with this fight by dusk.

[bguy]

But unless he have a way to hide or get invisible each round, a rogue can't sneak attack by himself without an ally flanking.

Doesn't a successful feint action give rogues a sneak attack? If Bozzok had Improved Feint he would essentially be able to get a sneak attack every round even without flankers. Even without it he could have gotten a sneak attack off every other round through normal feinting.


Sooner or later Roy's gonna go down. Durkon can't heal him with spells, and he doesn't have infinite potions.

Well lets play with the numbers a bit. Assuming Roy is a 14th level fighter and has around an 18 CON, he probably has about 133 HP. He's taken what look like 6 crossbow bolts, so we can assume he took about 33 points of damage from that, leaving him with about 100 HP. Now lets assume the mooks are wielding long swords, have a 14 STR, and have weapon specialization. That means they'll average about 9 points of damage on a hit. Presumably each round will go: 8 mooks attack Roy, after which he kills all of them. Assuming the mooks need a NAT 20 to hit, then they should score a hit on Roy every 2.5 rounds. They would have to hit Roy 12 times to take him down which should take them 30 rounds to achieve. In that time Roy by himself will take out 240 mooks. Add in Durkon and the barbed devil (neither of which the mooks can damage at all), and I think the mooks break well before Roy goes down.

[littlebum2002]

And then he casts an epic homebrewed broken necromancy spell (because we all know that's the only thing Haerta will ever bother to cast, naturally) that raises every single mook that Roy and co have killed so far as a zombie army (the cleaved ones rise as TWO zombies, one that bites and another that kicks).


Lol @ a zombified half person dragging himself around boring at people's ankles

[oonker]

Am I the only one that thinks that V will not shine BY blasting the mooks away?

He's shown an interest in varying his usual "blast then ask" approach to things, and used more supportive spells. Maybe he'll shine by buffing up his team while only mildly blasting the enemies.

Also, I don't think that he'll make another deal with the IFCC. EVER.

[TRH]

Am I the only one that thinks that V will not shine BY blasting the mooks away?

He's shown an interest in varying his usual "blast then ask" approach to things, and used more supportive spells. Maybe he'll shine by buffing up his team while only mildly blasting the enemies.

That makes some sense, but the Order are already killing these mooks in droves, so I'm kind of skeptical as to how much a few extra buffs would help. Buffs certainly aren't going to cause the army to break and run the same way a volley of Chain Lightning or a few Fireballs might.

[Chantelune]

Doesn't a successful feint action give rogues a sneak attack? If Bozzok had Improved Feint he would essentially be able to get a sneak attack every round even without flankers. Even without it he could have gotten a sneak attack off every other round through normal feinting.


True, though feinting is a standard action and count for your next melee attack. Which mean that you can then only attack every other round, half the time, you're feinting as an action. This make a fight rather tedious.

You can take the feat improved feinting to be able to feint as a move action, which allow you then to feint then attack in the same round as long as you don't move, but it's usually easier to just get a flanking and get a more useful feat. Not considering that you need combat expertise (along with an int score of 13+) to get improve feint, which make it too tedious to get for a rather marginal use.

Edit : Indeed. If there ever was a situation when blasting before asking was the best course of action, this is it. :smalltongue:

[David Argall]

That is an obnoxious and railroady houserule that should be punted away.
Quite the opposite. It is only rules flaw that gives Roy & friends a chance. We are playing a ROLEplaying game and that very much railroads the player, just as the script to a play does. The game was started to get around the kindergarden problem of the player just declaring victory. When we have overwhelming numbers, the players lose and it is rules flaw when we find some mechanic that allows them to win.

[Scow2]

Quite the opposite. It is only rules flaw that gives Roy & friends a chance. We are playing a ROLEplaying game and that very much railroads the player, just as the script to a play does. The game was started to get around the kindergarden problem of the player just declaring victory. When we have overwhelming numbers, the players lose and it is rules flaw when we find some mechanic that allows them to win.
Saying "They lose" despite their resources is railroading and obnoxious. If they have resources and power to survive an encounter, they should be able to do so. It's not a rules Flaw - it's a feature of 3.5. Otherwise, we'd all be trying to play D&D Next instead.

[TheWolfe]

In another thread someone posted a system for dealing with large battles. I have never played DnD so I don't know how applicable it is, but it looked logical and nice. It may be less useful in this situation because it was designed for two armies (hundreds of people or more) fighting a battle in which the PC's fight as well. Think of the Battle of Azure City for example

It basically was about rolling a percent dice, and based on that roll plus a lot of modifiers such as relative army size, terrain, leadership, fortifications, weaponry etc. you got a number, usually between 0 and 100 and this number decided how the battle went. 50 is a draw, while 0 and 100 are complete crushing victories for one of the sides, with a number of zones in between. In the meantime, the PC's fight with the high level soldiers from the enemy army, and based on the outcome of the battle, might cover the retreat, try to capture key enemy leaders, etc.

This system meant that you didn't have to roll for every single soldier and you can focus on the PC's, while still being able to realistically simulate the battle. To compare with Azure City: The comic only focused on the sections of wall that the Order were on, while the battle is still going on on the entire wall.

If someone is interested I can try to find this system and post it here.

[JCAll]

Saying "They lose" despite their resources is railroading and obnoxious. If they have resources and power to survive an encounter, they should be able to do so. It's not a rules Flaw - it's a feature of 3.5. Otherwise, we'd all be trying to play D&D Next instead.

Quite frankly, anyone with the mentality of a gamer is likely to take "You cannot possibly win" as a challenge instead of a warning. And really isn't that the point? Fighting a battle that you know you can win is boring, fighting a battle that you know you CAN'T win and then winning anyway is what makes life worthwhile.

[oonker]

Quite frankly, anyone with the mentality of a gamer is likely to take "You cannot possibly win" as a challenge instead of a warning. And really isn't that the point? Fighting a battle that you know you can win is boring, fighting a battle that you know you CAN'T win and then winning anyway is what makes life worthwhile.

I believe that winning a battle that you know you CAN'T win means only one of two things:

a - you grossly assessed the situation in a wrong way, while doing a poor evaluation of yourself, your resources, your team, your capabilities and your strategies or maybe by super evaluating your enemies.
b - dumb luck.

The thrilling battles are the ones that you know you CAN win, but you still haven't figured out a way how. The "figuring your way" is the most fun part of D&D, IMHO.

The problem is that PCs have this glandule that makes them believe that every single challenge they face is tailored to their level and abilities...

[Rogar Demonblud]

Yeah, I know. They die with great frequency in my games, because I do not roll that way.

[Amphiox]

Saying "They lose" despite their resources is railroading and obnoxious. If they have resources and power to survive an encounter, they should be able to do so. It's not a rules Flaw - it's a feature of 3.5. Otherwise, we'd all be trying to play D&D Next instead.

What we're really looking at here is the game mechanic where the DM wants to put a challenge into the game that the players cannot defeat by main, violent force, and will have to use some other strategy to surmount, whether it is to flee, negotiate, trick, or whatever.

An enormous army that the party cannot beat in combat is functionally no different than a single epic-level sorceror-lich with 10 levels on the party and enough damage resistance and protective items that the party can't scratch it.

If the DM wants to set that kind of challenge into his campaign, the onus is on him to design it so that the players really can't beat it with the resources they have in hand. And really he has a lot of options at his disposal. There's no rule that says the army has to be entirely composed of level 1 mooks, after all.

But the DM shouldn't simply "tell" the players the army is unbeatable. He should show. In other words, give the players the choice to stand and fight, and if they insist on pulling a Leonidas then just TPK them and let them re-roll a party of younger brothers and second cousins to swear vengeance on the evil empire of something.

(A nice DM should probably give such a party at least one or two chances midstream to change their minds. He could have the enemy commander call a halt to the attack and send a letter demanding surrender, for example, or he could let the party hold out until nightfall and give them a chance to re-evaluate their strategy while the enemy forces entrench for the night)

[Amphiox]

The problem is that PCs have this glandule that makes them believe that every single challenge they face is tailored to their level and abilities...

And sometimes they don't seem to realize that the challenge IS tailored to their level and abilities, but to their level and ability to escape or negotiate, and not to their ability to fight.

[oonker]

And sometimes they don't seem to realize that the challenge IS tailored to their level and abilities, but to their level and ability to escape or negotiate, and not to their ability to fight.

In fact, you can always count on the PCs to grossly super or sub evaluate absolutely everything you throw at them, hahaha :)

[Chantelune]

Well, you know the saying. A well oiled DM plan will never survive the contact of PCs. :smalltongue:

[F.Harr]

In another thread someone posted a system for dealing with large battles. I have never played DnD so I don't know how applicable it is, but it looked logical and nice. It may be less useful in this situation because it was designed for two armies (hundreds of people or more) fighting a battle in which the PC's fight as well. Think of the Battle of Azure City for example

It basically was about rolling a percent dice, and based on that roll plus a lot of modifiers such as relative army size, terrain, leadership, fortifications, weaponry etc. you got a number, usually between 0 and 100 and this number decided how the battle went. 50 is a draw, while 0 and 100 are complete crushing victories for one of the sides, with a number of zones in between. In the meantime, the PC's fight with the high level soldiers from the enemy army, and based on the outcome of the battle, might cover the retreat, try to capture key enemy leaders, etc.

This system meant that you didn't have to roll for every single soldier and you can focus on the PC's, while still being able to realistically simulate the battle. To compare with Azure City: The comic only focused on the sections of wall that the Order were on, while the battle is still going on on the entire wall.

If someone is interested I can try to find this system and post it here.

That sounds reletively efficient and cool. Good.

[TheWolfe]

I finally found the post with the mass combat system I talked about above. Turns out it wasn't on these forums, but in the comments for the DM of the Rings (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612) webcomic. Here it is, as posted by Hurricane Andrew here (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1014).

Here’s a fine rule for those of you who are looking at massive NPC v NPC battles to be massively simplified to implement.

Roll Percentile.

It’s a Gamemaster trick my friends used to use when armies were at battle. Their rules and modifications were fairly simple:

An even battle (similar numbers and levels) is essentially a 50/50 fight. Therefore, the Percentile will indicate not only what army wins but by how much.

Example: 300 angry orcs charge an open battlefield against 300 armed soldiers, all of 4th level or lower.

1-10: The human army is crushed, the battalion leaders are slain, all warrior-class party members must face combat with the top warrior level Orcs without aid of magic users (still tending to other areas of the battle). If the heroic warriors slay their attackers one on one, the party may choose to retreat with 10% of the remaining army, otherwise they must surrender or be slain. The players and the army may only choose to retreat or surrender.
11-25: The humans take heavy casualties. Orcs force is reduced by 20% while the human soldiers lose 50% of their numbers, including key leadership. The party may choose to call for retreat, incurring another 5% troup casualty rate and a swift exit from battle, given a secure retreat location, or continue to fight with appropriate modifiers.
26-50: Both sides take heavy casualties. Orcs force is reduced by 30% while the human soldiers lose 40% of their force, including one key leader. The party may choose to call for a retreat with or without a secure retreat location, incurring 5% troop casualty rate, or continue to fight with appropriate modifiers.
51-75: Both sides take heavy casualties. Orcs force is reduced by 40%including one key leader, while the human soldiers lose 30% of their force. The party may choose to call for an advance, incurring 5% troop casualty rate but reducing the Orcs force by 10%, or continue to fight with appropriate modifiers. If they choose to advance, they must continue for one more round of battle.
75-90: The Orcs take heavy casualties. The Human’s army is reduced by 20% while the Orcs lose 50% of their numbers, including key leadership. On a failed Wisdom check (base 10 modified by 1 for every 5% they are outnumbered), the Orcs will call for retreat, incurring another 5% troup casualty rate. The party may choose to call for an advance, incurring 5% troop casualty rate but reducing the Orcs force by 10%, or continue to fight with appropriate modifiers. The party may choose to call for an advance, incurring 5% troop casualty rate but reducing the Orcs force by 10%, or continue to fight with appropriate modifiers. If they choose to advance, they must continue for one more round of battle.
90-100: The Orc army is crushed, the battalion leaders are slain, and the army is in full retreat. All mounted party members may seek out one-on-one combat with the remaining top warrior level Orcs. If the heroic mounted Players slay their Orcs in one on one battle, the party will recieve appropriate treasure for the highest level enemies and heroic recognition from the thankful Human army. The remaining 10% of the Orcs will either scatter or be slain. The players and the army may only choose to retreat or surrender.

Appropriate modifiers include:
+10 for fortifications (Siege Weapons each give a -2 penalty to the fortified army and an additional -2 for every round attacking the fortified army until the fortification bonus is nullified)
+5 High Ground Modifier (can also be used for armies on familiar ground or protecting their villages or homes)
+1 per 10% Greater Numbers Modifier (If Army A is 30% larger than Army B, Army A gets a +3 roll modifier)
+1 (per 10 levels) Trained Army Modifier (If Army A has 50 more total levels than Army B, Army A gets a +5 roll modifier.)
+1 Massive Weapon Bonus (Used for major catapults and other weapons of mass destruction, given until the weapon is neutralized)
+/-2 Morale Modifier (Handy to use post battle speech, dramatic turns in a battle, every time the Player’s army chooses to advance or retreat, Players choose to make some symbolic roleplaying move that is successful or that fails miserably, etc. Multiply as necessary up to 10 on any given battle round)
Sprinkle your own modifications in as well. It’s a fun system to get through massive battles quickly.

[Rogar Demonblud]

(A nice DM should probably give such a party at least one or two chances midstream to change their minds. He could have the enemy commander call a halt to the attack and send a letter demanding surrender, for example, or he could let the party hold out until nightfall and give them a chance to re-evaluate their strategy while the enemy forces entrench for the night)

Shouldn't happen. Unless the army is commanded by a moron, the troops not directly engaged will be digging in to create at least basic fortifications. And those will probably hem in the PCs even more than they are by being stupid enough to stand their ground and let themselves get surrounded.

But the PCs are generally complete idiots. One of my pals swears he can TPK any party up to sixth level, any edition, with an equal number of kobolds. Having been on the receiving end of his units before, I believe him.

Amazing how the premises of the game start breaking down once the orcs begin to use basic teamwork.

[TRH]

Shouldn't happen. Unless the army is commanded by a moron, the troops not directly engaged will be digging in to create at least basic fortifications. And those will probably hem in the PCs even more than they are by being stupid enough to stand their ground and let themselves get surrounded.

But the PCs are generally complete idiots. One of my pals swears he can TPK any party up to sixth level, any edition, with an equal number of kobolds. Having been on the receiving end of his units before, I believe him.

Amazing how the premises of the game start breaking down once the orcs begin to use basic teamwork.

Yes, because all armies in a medieval setting are as organized, well-trained and disciplined as Roman legions. :smallconfused:

Sure, you could make an army that happens to be a well-oiled killing machine like that, and it'll definitely throw PC's for a loop if they're not expecting it, but don't pretend it's particularly realistic or representative of what you'd expect armed forces in this setting to act like. And certainly don't assume that every GM will do the same thing when they throw an army the PC's way.