[3.5] Rules to add nonassociated class level to monster?

[Viscerator]

Greeting guys!

There are couple of questions bothering me for a while for improving monsters. We know that DM can improve monster by adding class levels or/and advancing monsters' HD. Here are the questions:

SRD said Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1.

Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.

1. So for a fight-oriented monster with 6 HD for example, One can add 6 sorcerer level with 3 CR increment. Now if I want to further add 6 psion level to it, I wonder the CR increase is 3 or 6?

2. for the same monster, suppose its type is aberration, I first advance its racial HD by 4 to 10 HD with 1 CR increment. Now I begin to add sorcerer level to it. According to SRD, it is said 1 nonassociated level for 1/2 CR increment up to its original HD. So for this monster case, I can take this advantage to 6 HD or 10 HD?

Thanks!:smallsmile:

[Maginomicon]

1. So for a fight-oriented monster with 6 HD for example, One can add 6 sorcerer level with 3 CR increment. Now if I want to further add 6 psion level to it, I wonder the CR increase is 3 or 6?
Psion may not quite be a similar class, but it's close enough. Wilder would make more sense to become associated.

2. for the same monster, suppose its type is aberration, I first advance its racial HD by 4 to 10 HD with 1 CR increment. Now I begin to add sorcerer level to it. According to SRD, it is said 1 nonassociated level for 1/2 CR increment up to its original HD. So for this monster case, I can take this advantage to 6 HD or 10 HD?
I'm pretty sure the HD increase takes priority, so you consider the HD and then the class levels when determining CR.

[Viscerator]

Psion may not quite be a similar class, but it's close enough. Wilder would make more sense to become associated.

So you mean if i add further 6 level psion, there will be only 3 CR increase?


I'm pretty sure the HD increase takes priority, so you consider the HD and then the class levels when determining CR.

Well I mean, now the monster has 10 HD, I can add 10 non-associated class level with 5 CR increment, or I am still only allowed to add 6 non-associated class with 3 CR increment?

[John Longarrow]

Viscerator

Take a look at what the monster turns into at the end. As DM, set the CR appropriate for what you wind up with.

For a giant with a charisma of 12 and 12 HD, it almost won't matter how many levels of Sorcerer you add. Unless its Charisma goes up, I'd treat all levels in Sorcerer as 1/2 CR. This is because it can't use better than 2nd level spells.

Likewise if you start with a pixie I'd treat all levels in ANY class as being +1 CR because pixies have fantastic stats and can easily be turned into nasty versions of most anything. Almost TPKed a 7th level party with a pixie that was a 3rd level warlock. I treated that as a CR 7.

For DMs, the CR of an encounter is based mostly on what you put together and how challenging it is, not on some arbitrary rule that doesn't take into consideration how powerful some combinations become (read Succubi Marshal + just about any other class).

[Viscerator]

Viscerator

Take a look at what the monster turns into at the end. As DM, set the CR appropriate for what you wind up with.

For a giant with a charisma of 12 and 12 HD, it almost won't matter how many levels of Sorcerer you add. Unless its Charisma goes up, I'd treat all levels in Sorcerer as 1/2 CR. This is because it can't use better than 2nd level spells.

Likewise if you start with a pixie I'd treat all levels in ANY class as being +1 CR because pixies have fantastic stats and can easily be turned into nasty versions of most anything. Almost TPKed a 7th level party with a pixie that was a 3rd level warlock. I treated that as a CR 7.

For DMs, the CR of an encounter is based mostly on what you put together and how challenging it is, not on some arbitrary rule that doesn't take into consideration how powerful some combinations become (read Succubi Marshal + just about any other class).


Thank you John, but I still wanna have a reliable and solid understanding of the rules of improving monster. Since my PCs are all super overpowered gamers, I want to make the game more challenging with as less CR increment as possible.

[Fouredged Sword]

Urpriest has a really good monster handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207928) that covers this subject in detail.

[Psyren]

Isn't CR just some random number they attach to the monster entries anyway? I wouldn't worry the math too much and instead judge the encounter based on what the monster can do.

[OldTrees1]

Isn't CR just some random number they attach to the monster entries anyway? I wouldn't worry the math too much and instead judge the encounter based on what the monster can do.

^This is very important. CR is a joke that can only be used as a rough target.

[ericgrau]

6 levels of psion don't go very well with racial HD nor sorc levels so I'd make them nonassociated. Maybe if you're going for cerebremancer it's be different, but even then ouch there's the 6 racial HD.

The CRs in MM1 actually aren't too far off, but the internet loves making and re-using hyperbole. Optimization may change things too. I dunno but I've heard bad things about certain other MMs and I think I agree with some of the examples, so those may be different. I think the 3.0 ones might be worse.

Either way your main goal should be to base CR on how hard it really is. But the guidelines are still a much better starting point than nothing. So you use both the guidelines and your own sense. So in the above I say 1/2 CR per psion level because they don't work well with the rest of the build.

Then 12 levels is a lot to tack on with mere guidelines. So if you want to do some further guesses that's not a bad idea. Like "X ability the monster/PC uses has Y% chance of working and doing Z", so he'll probably take out a foe in W rounds, while his opponent will take V rounds on average. If V and W are about the same, then one might drop by the time the other drops. Don't assume either side knows what the others' weaknesses are though. I'd guess some risk of a PC death vs a baseline optimized party (low or no tricks) is EL = party level + 2. Some risk of TPK is about EL = party level + 4. Against EL = party level it's a routine but not trivial fight that burns resources but has very little chance of PC death. So you see how that compares to your original number, consider if there's anything you've forgotten, consider how bad rolls might changes things, and then adjust up or down on the EL. Brute / sorc / psion seems like a pretty bad mix so even with the nonassociated levels I bet it may go down a CR or two.

[Urpriest]

Isn't CR just some random number they attach to the monster entries anyway? I wouldn't worry the math too much and instead judge the encounter based on what the monster can do.

CR isn't just a random number, it's how you determine XP, and EL, which in turn determines treasure. It doesn't determine what your players should be facing, sure, but that's much less important.


Anyway, the "original HD" in that section is with respect to before adding class levels, not the original monster, since there are plenty of MM examples of advanced monsters statted out like base monsters so there isn't a meaningful distinction.

In terms of class levels, the rules peg it to a particular class, but also say that any similar class will trigger the rule. I'd think of it like the following: classes are associated when they agree with one of a monster's roles. When you add enough class levels of a particular role to equal the monster's HD, you add that role to the monster's roles, so any more levels that fill that role become associated. So Psion levels would remain non-associated, but a Sorceror-advancing PrC would be associated. On the flipside, if you've got a 6HD creature that doesn't make much use of its fighting ability, you can a total of 6 levels of Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, and the like before they become associated, but once you pass that total they all are associated.