Ninja?

[j_spencer93]

I am looking to make a ninja NPC who could either become an antagonist or protagonist to the party, but I really dislike the ninja, its complete crap in my opinion. are there any cool NPC classes or builds that make the ninja come...interesting to fight? or is the pathfinder just better to use?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Check Swordsage in ToB, with proper feat/maneuver selection they are awesome ninjas.

[Greenish]

There's always swordsage. Though you could (and probably should) use Ninja the class if you have several of them, conservation of ninjutsu and all. :smalltongue:

[Edit]: Appropriately swordsage'd.

[j_spencer93]

wanting to stick to classes that are ninjaish, even monkish at this point...but honestly is there a reason to not use pathfinder ninja or 3.5 ninja? my game mainly 3.5 but been allowing players pathfinder material is asked.
also...any prc at all?

[Greenish]

wanting to stick to classes that are ninjaish, even monkish at this point...I don't understand this objection.


but honestly is there a reason to not use pathfinder ninja or 3.5 ninja?3.5 Ninja is pretty bad, as you observed, so I'd guess that's a reason not to use it. PF Ninja is somewhat better, I've been told.


also...any prc at all?Ninja Spy from OA isn't terrible, and has "ninja" in the name.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Ninja spy (OA) is decent from what I recall.

[j_spencer93]

what I meant by ninjaish is something that actually has to do with being a ninja. every class I see someone says warblade, but I never cared for that at all. and I noticed PF ninja gets naruto like jutsu lol prob go with it and maybe ninja spy, ninja of the crescent moon, and shadow sun ninja classes.
think that will about do it for the level too.

[Maginomicon]

Ninja's not as bad as you might think. Here's some advice I put together for someone I know that's building a ninja at 5th level. (more options are available at the listed sources at higher levels)

Trapfinding trade-outs

You can trade out Trapfinding for...

Antiquarian: Appraise/Identify divine items, or

Mimic: 1/day Disguise Self for 10 minutes/ninja level.

Elemental Ninja Variants

You can Trade out the (Wind) Ninja abilities package...

2nd: Ghost Step (invisible)
8th: Ghost Strike
10th: Ghost Step (ethereal)

For one of the following packages...

Blinding Flash (Fire Ninja)

2nd: Burst into flames, blinding or dazzling
8th: Extend blinding effect by one round
10th: Melee attacks have "flaming burst" & hitting you deals fire damage

Deceptive Mist (Water Ninja)

2nd: Obscuring Mist you can see through
8th: Lace Obscuring Mist with poison
10th: Obsuring Solid Fog

One with the Earth (Earth Ninja)

2nd: Meld into Stone for 1 minute or more
8th: Burrow Speed for 1 round or more
10th: Earthen Damage Reduction

Ninja-Centric Feats

General Feats (which have no special properties)

Jutsu Focus [General]
(Your jutsu are especially formidable.)

Guerilla Trapsmith [General]
(You are adept at rigging small, improvised traps.)

Intuitive Trapsmith [General]
(You rely on intuition instead of intellect when searching rooms or when disabling a trap.)

One with Earth and Water [General]
(You rely on intuition instead of strength when climbing or swimming.)

Zen Fortitude [General]
(Your intuitive control of your body allows you to withstand physical hardships.)

Ki Feats (which expend Ki Power uses)

Rabbit Prince Jutsu [Ki]
(You can suppress your ki to focus on your smallness in comparison to the vastness of the cosmos. Your steps become light and time loosens its hold on you.)

Thousand Faces Jutsu [Ki]
(You recall and mimic the subtle ki frequencies of others, obscuring your true spirit and clouding the minds of those who view you.)

Karmic Healing [Ki]
(You may channel your ki power into healing and banishing weariness from your body.)

Ki Smite [Ki]
(You may channel your ki power into melee attacks.)

Wolf's Bite [Ki]
(You temporarily master special attacks.)

Relevant Books/Pages

Dragon Magazine #289 pp36-42 (Fluff Material)
Dragon Magazine #342 pp84-85 (Feats)
Dragon Magazine #351 pp86-87 (Feats)
Dragon Magazine #354 pp86-87 (Elemental Ninja ACFs)
Complete Champion p51 (Antiquarian)
Exemplars of Evil p21 (Mimic)

[ArcturusV]

It depends on what you really want with "Ninja". Swordsage is probably good if you're talking Anime "Guys in black pajamas with super powers" sort of Ninjas. The ninja base class is stuck between trying to be the Super Powers type, and trying to be a more mundane type, and kinda fails at both. That's why it's bad.

No, not because Sudden Strike is bad. 3rd edition players are just spoiled about how easy they made it to backstab with a thief. I think it's more to do with deciding if they wanted a mundane skills guy, or a super power guy, and couldn't choose.

Rogue is a decent enough chassis if you want a more mundane one. A one level dip into Ninja for easy poison use wouldn't really hurt as well. Sucks to prick yourself with your own toxins.

[j_spencer93]

ok. well defiantly got some ideas now, thanks. even my TOB might get used for the very first time, no joke no one has ever used that book so far. and first was wanting more of mundane ninja, but think ill go Anime ninja.
matter of fact, pathfinder shadow clone ability is what made me decide that lol.
and ya ninja seemed like it was two ideas put into one, the ki powers are lame in 3.5 and almost useless, you really can make a better ninja with rogue, but as a DM rule to myself, when I make a character with a theme, I want at least 1 level in the class the theme is based on.

[Immabozo]

Try gestalt (Uneathed Arcana) a rogue and a swordsage, then pick up assassin on one side and then just make sure assassin sneak attack is at alternating levels to the rogue. 15D6 sneak attack, per hit, at level 20? Sounds like good times!

Then use drugs and poisons and you are good to go! Get shurukins as thrown weapons.

Weaponize Luhix for a first hit Fort save or 1 ability damage to all scores, and I think a no-save 1 minute paralized, second hit DC 25 fort save or die effect. Plus, it's the strongest addiction drug and the only one administered via injury.

[John Longarrow]

j_spencer93,

If you build a swordsage and stick to Shadow Hand stances, you can grab the Shadowhand feat (dex to damage when is shadow hand stance) and have your "Ninja" take the TWF tree, weapon finesse, and improved unarmed-superior unarmed combat.

Makes for a very solid combatant. Toss in 4 levels of fighter (for feats and a BAB of 16 at 20th) and you have a very versitile unarmed combatant that can use a LOT of weapons.

Between versatility and the ability to blend with most combatants, these guys should be able to get in and out without problems. They can wear/use the same equipment as the local guards/troops and present themselves as guards.

I've learned that character class does not equal how a character is played / presented. Most fun "Bard" I ever ran was a ranger/sorcerer.

[j_spencer93]

John- I known theme doesn't equal class, just something I try to do for NPCs. and actually that sounds good, but NPC needs to be around 6 at the moment.

[Immabozo]

If you build a swordsage and stick to Shadow Hand stances, you can grab the Shadowhand feat (dex to damage when is shadow hand stance) and have your "Ninja" take the TWF tree, weapon finesse, and improved unarmed-superior unarmed combat.

Makes for a very solid combatant. Toss in 4 levels of fighter (for feats and a BAB of 16 at 20th) and you have a very versitile unarmed combatant that can use a LOT of weapons.

Between versatility and the ability to blend with most combatants, these guys should be able to get in and out without problems. They can wear/use the same equipment as the local guards/troops and present themselves as guards.

TWF is super feat intensive and utterly underwhelming.

Flavorful? Yes. Solid combatant? Far from it. An equally built Two Handed Weapon Fighter will crush any TWF any day of the week. And twice on Fridays.

[j_spencer93]

I don't care about optimized, flavor is really more my thing. also, adding a lot more city and stealth things into the game. out campaign is basically the players are in this world, can free travel and do anything they want, but there is something else going on behind the scenes that will end up destroying it if they don't stop it (they don't know it will destroy it). so the stealth ninja mimic build my be interesting for the ninja I have in mind, but the shadow stance guy might not be bad either.

[j_spencer93]

also, I had a minotaur barbarian die several times, cheesed to hell for dmg, and yet that straw arrow sure got him lol also had a PC goblin rogue not optimized at all that managed to shoot 3 vampires in the heart. no ****, I told him it would take a natural twenty or atleast over 25 to do it, and he rolled a nat twenty 3 times.
wanted to smack the player out of his seat lol then they threw their partner into hell so oh well

[j_spencer93]

and actually is built right TWF isn't band, had a guy made that way. his goal was to disarm, and then tear his target to pieces. can out pretty good, PC haven't got to him yet, but don't think they will enjoy the situation at all.

[Gavinfoxx]

Actually, yea, twf IS bad because it requires more investment for lower return.

It's okay if you have Craven to up your per hit damage, or have a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard in the party throwing you a bunch of D6's. But compared to the efficiency of two handed fighting, and what you get for the same investment... yea, it is bad. You probably need to re-calibrate your understanding of the game and optimization levels and effectiveness levels.

[j_spencer93]

??? a meant for a stealth fighter in this particular post...TWF seems far better for a ninja then carrying a giant 2 handed weapon around, and by far more reasonable.

[Gavinfoxx]

??? a meant for a stealth fighter in this particular post...TWF seems far better for a ninja then carrying a giant 2 handed weapon around, and by far more reasonable.

Not reaallyyy... seeing as how hideaway weapons exist...

[j_spencer93]

aw now we on same page gavin, hideaway weapons good idea for ninja, already thought of that. and really thinking of giving him one. but for coolness factor, for a ninja stealth is the best idea in my opinion, i throw a ninja at you with a giant hammer and well...the coolness turns to cheese

[Gavinfoxx]

Iunno. I don't generally play Ninja; my Samurai are Warblades who use Iron Heart and other mundane ToB styles, who use a Guisarme and call it a 'Kama-Yari' (look it up), and their backup weapon is a 'Nodachi' (using the stats of a Great Scimitar).

[j_spencer93]

that's actually pretty cool, btw...i know a lot about Japanese weapons don't need to look them up. anyways, that would be a cool build, i had a player though that once went samurai/master samurai but focused on TWF for some odd reason. would be neat for someone to play one more down to earth and like a real samurai, which oddly your build does imply.
the samurai class seems to be based off the idea samurai always duel wielded swords which actually is off by far.
also i thought nodachi had stats? and if not considering how a katana=master work bastardsword wouldn't a nodachi=masterwork greatsword, in dnd logic jw? i actually like your idea.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea, Warblade makes for better real world samurai. Remember there is an OA Samurai too...

And I don't like the stats that D&D gives weapons, there ARE rules for curved weapons already, it makes more sense for katana to be scimitar and the bigger ones to be great scimitar, IMO.

[j_spencer93]

i agree actually, i think that does make more sense for their kinda weapons, although in real test a katana is really equal to a bastardsword in combat effectiveness, better actually if you go by deadliest warrior (i would only take that as it is, some things they do are dumb).

[Gavinfoxx]

Don't go by deadliest warrior, they did the tests wrong.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

[j_spencer93]

i know, I've seen it. they do a lot wrong actually, btw my knowledge isn't only from them. its from all the documentaries and things ive watched about weapons, and from reading about how they are made and the stress and break points of each blade. a katana really is a fine, sturdy, sharp blade that can thrust, and slash.
lol I've already read those. anyways ya, a katana is versatile but really its endurance sucks, they were used for swift kills, not beating at each other until an opening appeared.
their designs and abilities reflect how they were used.
graceful and quick= katana
crude but durable= bastard sword
really the wielder is what is comes down too.

[Gavinfoxx]

A katana isn't as durable as you think, because it is so sharp, actually. It's very brittle on the edge because it is so hard and sharp and such. You don't need sharpness in a blade, really... it's a liability if you expect to fight people in decent armor.

[j_spencer93]

you posted before i got my edit done. i know a katana isn't durable is used blade to blade, which btw NEVER should be done. not why or how it was made.
oh and you cant really say that about Japanese armor, their armor was actually pretty good, they came up with armor dubbed bulletproof for a reason, if used right it would help stop a bullet.
medieval warfare was chaotic, and crude, hence why bastardsword was used then.
now a katana came before, and was used far after the bastardsword for a reason too though.

[mattie_p]

As is usual, Zinc Saucier provides the answer. Here are the results from our Ninja competion - building a ninja without actually using levels in that class.

The Dark Weed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14389319&postcount=24) - Eskil = 17 points

John Cage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14389338&postcount=26) - dspeyer = 16.5 points

Masashi Kishomoto (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14389347&postcount=27) - Motoko's ghost = 16 points

Dare Mo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14389328&postcount=25) - Motoko's ghost = 13.5 points

[j_spencer93]

actually i agree a ninja could be made far better then using the actual ninja class. just not how i wanted this one built.

[Gavinfoxx]

you posted before i got my edit done. i know a katana isn't durable is used blade to blade, which btw NEVER should be done. not why or how it was made.
oh and you cant really say that about Japanese armor, their armor was actually pretty good, they came up with armor dubbed bulletproof for a reason, if used right it would help stop a bullet.
medieval warfare was chaotic, and crude, hence why bastardsword was used then.
now a katana came before, and was used far after the bastardsword for a reason too though.


...Wow. Uhm. Okay. I'll leave this to someone else to correct. You've been... misinformed on several factors.

[j_spencer93]

lol actually 1 thing in that post is wrong, a katana did not come before. my bad, anyways a katana was used in active duty up into the 9th century were bastard sword were replaced by firearms and light weight blade by then.
i am not misinformed, and a katana is not meant for blade on blade fights, they were used with the flat of the blade trying to force of find an opening in an opponent and finishing with the sharpened blade. you watch to much anime or something is you dispute that.

[Gavinfoxx]

lol actually 1 thing in that post is wrong, a katana need not come before. my bad, anyways a katana was used in active duty up into the 9th century were bastard sword were replaced by firearms and light weight blade by then.
i am not misinformed.

Again, you've been misinformed. I'll just leave it at that.

[j_spencer93]

sigh, ya better to leave bygones to be bygones.
actually, lets not. what are your sources for me being wrong because one quick look to google alone, not including everyone practiced person with a katana would show you how to use one. a katana's blade is brittle, they nick when colliding, and were to expensive for samurai's to constantly reforge since the metal to make them was rare in japan, so they were made for quick fluid strikes, using flat of blade to flat of blade to parry, and wear down an opponent to create an opening. no one in their right mind would use blade to blade with a katana.

[Rebel7284]

Factotum makes for an amazing ninja

[j_spencer93]

actually never used that class, either has any of my player's what are its percs.