Hiding the Dedicated Wright

[unseenmage]

6th level game, Artificer Alchemist, my Dedicated Wright (and subsequently so too my castings of Unseen Crafter) can't craft in portable extradimensional spaces.
No 3.0, no Dragon, no Homebrew, no Dragon Compendium. No Custom Items of any kind.

What do?
I am going to run out of Alchemical items. That's a given. How do I sequester the Dedicated Wright so it can safely do my crafting and still get said crafting back to me in the dungeon?

A go between Homunculus has already been declared a poor dead idea.

Also, how much Crafting can one Alchemy Lab get done before the DM is well within their rights to tell the player they're out of Alchemical reagents?

[kaminiwa]

my Dedicated Wright (and subsequently so too my castings of Unseen Crafter) can't craft in portable extradimensional spaces.

Is this a house rule? I'm not aware of anything that would normally stop that.

Is there something that prevents you from just getting a cart and horse for the Dedicated Wright and crafting supplies?



Also, how much Crafting can one Alchemy Lab get done before the DM is well within their rights to tell the player they're out of Alchemical reagents?


The lab just gives you a +2 circumstance bonus to the skill check. You still need to provide raw materials as per the Craft skill. So... you have as much raw material as you purchase.

Step 3: "Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials." - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm

I've always allowed players to purchase generic "Alchemical Raw Materials" and assume they have negligible weight, but your GM might require you to purchase raw materials specific to the items you are making, or assign them an actual weight :)

[Segev]

Ring Gates. Set up the Wright in town, and carry one of the Gates with you. He'll pass you whatever you need.

[unseenmage]

Is this a house rule? I'm not aware of anything that would normally stop that.

Is there something that prevents you from just getting a cart and horse for the Dedicated Wright and crafting supplies?



The lab just gives you a +2 circumstance bonus to the skill check. You still need to provide raw materials as per the Craft skill. So... you have as much raw material as you purchase.

Step 3: "Pay one-third of the item’s price for the cost of raw materials." - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm

I've always allowed players to purchase generic "Alchemical Raw Materials" and assume they have negligible weight, but your GM might require you to purchase raw materials specific to the items you are making, or assign them an actual weight :)

Yeah, guess it's a house rule. I don't completely disagree with it as per RAW the inside of a Haversack is just as likely to be a no-craft zone as it is to be suitable to craft in.

As for the 'raw alchemical ingredients', don't you then get into a weird area where they could craft the raw ingredients though, ad infiitum?


Ring Gates. Set up the Wright in town, and carry one of the Gates with you. He'll pass you whatever you need.

Yeah we're only 6th level. otherwise I'd be all over a set of Ring Gates.

[Tvtyrant]

See if you can apply familiar pocket to the Wright for crafting?

[kaminiwa]

Don't you then get into a weird area where they could craft the raw ingredients though, ad infiitum?


No. You can't craft a raw item, by definition :)

But as a GM, I'd just ban it for being circular and unrealistic. There's no way you can start with enough wood for a small shield, and "craft" it in to enough wood for three shields.

That said, in a higher-level campaign, where the gold gain isn't worth the time spent, I'd be totally fine letting the PCs get away with that for flavor :)

[unseenmage]

See if you can apply familiar pocket to the Wright for crafting?

Sadly per RAW Familiar Pocket says, "When you cast this spell, a garment or container becomes a safe haven for a Tiny or smaller familiar."

That and it's more likely that an undefined extradimensional space would allow for crafting than a pocket. Don't really see getting a 40 lb. Alchemical Lab into it either.

(On a completely unrelated note this game's 3.5 only [will edit OP] and I'd forgotten there was a 3.5 version of Familiar Pocket. Thanks.)

[fishyfishyfishy]

6th level game, Artificer Alchemist, my Dedicated Wright (and subsequently so too my castings of Unseen Crafter) can't craft in portable extradimensional spaces.


Get a bag of holding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding)



Bag of Holding

This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size. The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions. Regardless of what is put into the bag, it weighs a fixed amount. This weight, and the limits in weight and volume of the bag’s contents, depend on the bag’s type, as shown on the table below.

It's not a portable extradimensional space, it's a portable nondimensional space.


If the DM's problem is actually with nondimensional space, bring up the Portable Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#portableHole). The portable hole is extradimensional and when you read it's description it actually makes perfect sense for this use. Still doesn't get around that 20,000gp price tag though...

EDIT: I just want to point out that this could be a deeper issue. Maybe the DM is willing to run a slower pace game to allow the time for you to craft yourself? Playing as an Artificer requires some time to do crafting, or leniency from the DM on using portable extradimensional/nondimensional spaces and hardworking minions to do it for you. The best solution is probably to talk to the DM.

[unseenmage]

Get a bag of holding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofHolding)



It's not a portable extradimensional space, it's a portable nondimensional space.


If the DM's problem is actually with nondimensional space, bring up the Portable Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#portableHole). The portable hole is extradimensional and when you read it's description it actually makes perfect sense for this use. Still doesn't get around that 20,000gp price tag though...

EDIT: I just want to point out that this could be a deeper issue. Maybe the DM is willing to run a slower pace game to allow the time for you to craft yourself? Playing as an Artificer requires some time to do crafting, or leniency from the DM on using portable extradimensional/nondimensional spaces and hardworking minions to do it for you. The best solution is probably to talk to the DM.

Firstly, Nondimensional isn't a thing. no where does it say that nondimensional differs from extradimensional. Not only that portable 'bigger on the inside' items are called out as being extradimensional in the Manual of the Planes or DMG. Don't remember which.

I have already begun the dialog with the DM. This thread is just to cover bases and explore the possibilities regarding Dedicated Wrights and nonmobile crafting in safety.

[Segev]

Alright. What are your precise needs in terms of "hiding" the Wright?

[unseenmage]

Alright. What are your precise needs in terms of "hiding" the Wright?

Dunno, really. I've always carried them with me.

This is for an adventure and not a campaign. Level 6. Nearest town is only 80 people separated from civilization. Faerun game.

I'm short on funds and would like to still be able to take the Dedicated Wright with me and to store it somewhere airtight (as it doesn't breathe) and secure from prying locals. I'd thought of maybe leaving it at the dungeon entrance or in the town.
Without Ring Gates I'm not sure how to get the fruits of it's labors to me when I need them though. Guess I may just have to let it craft when the party stops for rest only.

[Segev]

Invest in a wagon which you modify to be heavily armored and be a place it can work when it's not moving, but otherwise locks down everything for safe transport? It can wait at the entrance to the dungeon, and you can have your Familiar ferry you items from it.

[unseenmage]

Invest in a wagon which you modify to be heavily armored and be a place it can work when it's not moving, but otherwise locks down everything for safe transport? It can wait at the entrance to the dungeon, and you can have your Familiar ferry you items from it.

I had thought about buying a Wagon, but figured it'd be too conspicuous.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of handing the DM such a juicy target; but in a campaign. For a straight playthrough I'd prefer if the whole kitankaboodle doesn't get hijacked.

That and I'm not sure how Batmobile-up a wagon without spending a fortune I don't exactly have.

Is there a cheap way to dig a hole and put a boulder on top of it?

I do have access to Shapesand, two doses. Perhaps it could be used to hide a hidey-hole?

[Rubik]

A couple of eternal wands of Prestidigitation can dig you a hole, since the spell can clean 1 cubic foot of dirt per round. Just have it "clean" the dirt from the ground nearby for a few minutes, lower your supplies and wright into it, roll an wagon over it, and remove the wheels. Hide the wheels in the hole, and retrieve them when you're ready to restore the wagon to full maneuverability.

[edit] Oh, and feel free to hide the wagon somewhere inconspicuous.

[Slipperychicken]

Just let it out when you go to bed. A "crafting day" is only 8 hours anyway, and that's the same amount of time you need to rest to prepare spells.

Besides, the little guy can even function as an alarm system! :smallbiggrin: Anyone who wants to get to you has to take down your Wright without it waking you up first.

[unseenmage]

Another question that's been bugging me, does nonmagic item crafting follow the same restriction as magic crafting in that you can only dedicate 8 hours per day to it?

Can a Dedicated Wright do nonmagic crafting nonstop?

If so, how much faster does the little guy craft items? What's the multiplier?

[Slipperychicken]

Another question that's been bugging me, does nonmagic item crafting follow the same restriction as magic crafting in that you can only dedicate 8 hours per day to it?


Theoretically, if a person can only do an 8 hour day*, then a creature which can't tire (like a construct) should be able to work 24/7, and accomplish 24 hour crafting days. That ought to result in accomplishing 3 "days" of work in the same 24-hour period.

*Which is strange because the 8-hour workday is a very recent concept, whose institution was a product of the 20th century labor movement's efforts to create humane working conditions. Many people, especially poor people, and those in the developing world, can and do work much longer than 8 hours each day. Maybe it's because D&D humans are much weaker than real-life ones; being seriously threatened by housecats and going down after 2-4 punches on average.

[kaminiwa]

Which is strange because the 8-hour workday is a very recent concept

Actually, there's repeated studies that show you get maximum productivity done with a 40 hour work week - anything more and the error rate rises to the point that you're spending more time fixing things.

It's easier to push this for extremely basic manual labor, but for intellectual tasks (accountant, clerk, etc.) it's pretty noticeable. For creative tasks, it's *incredibly* noticeable.

So if enchanting is an intellectual or creative task, the most productive Wizard only puts in 40 hours. Anyone doing more gets exhausted, stumbles the spells, and then has to spend another 2 hours dis-enchanting and re-enchanting that section.

[unseenmage]

Actually, there's repeated studies that show you get maximum productivity done with a 40 hour work week - anything more and the error rate rises to the point that you're spending more time fixing things.

It's easier to push this for extremely basic manual labor, but for intellectual tasks (accountant, clerk, etc.) it's pretty noticeable. For creative tasks, it's *incredibly* noticeable.

So if enchanting is an intellectual or creative task, the most productive Wizard only puts in 40 hours. Anyone doing more gets exhausted, stumbles the spells, and then has to spend another 2 hours dis-enchanting and re-enchanting that section.

I like this comparison.
Makes magical enchanting that much more impressive. Here we have the tireless Dedicated Wright. As a construct he can run or mundane craft non-stop. But even he is subject to the limits on magical crafting, it's so grueling it even exhausts the mental reserves of the normally tireless, and mind-affecting immune construct.

[Slipperychicken]

Actually, there's repeated studies that show you get maximum productivity done with a 40 hour work week - anything more and the error rate rises to the point that you're spending more time fixing things.

It's easier to push this for extremely basic manual labor, but for intellectual tasks (accountant, clerk, etc.) it's pretty noticeable. For creative tasks, it's *incredibly* noticeable.

So if enchanting is an intellectual or creative task, the most productive Wizard only puts in 40 hours. Anyone doing more gets exhausted, stumbles the spells, and then has to spend another 2 hours dis-enchanting and re-enchanting that section.

What I mean to say is that people in the time period which most D&D settings loosely emulate simply did not have a concept of the 8-hour workday. More efficient or not, people would work for much longer than that. Also, the scientific and statistical framework which made those studies possible did not exist until very recently; people simply wouldn't know that the 8-hour workday is optimal.

[Lord Vukodlak]

What I mean to say is that people in the time period which most D&D settings loosely emulate simply did not have a concept of the 8-hour workday. More efficient or not, people would work for much longer than that.

Well it depends actually, if your talking about a profession or trade they worked far shorter hours them modern humans do. They took breaks, they napped in the middle part of the day and had regular days off. The church even enforced mandatory vacation days.

But because you had to weave your own cloth, gather your own firewood not to mention cooking those meals over an open fire, wash clothes by hand and as a farmer tend to animals that takes a lot of time. So yeah people would work more then eight hours but most of it was housework.

[Spuddles]

On topic: check out the shadow cache spell in spell compendium. That might work.

What size is a deeicated wright? Small? You could build a wagon for it, and it would only need 1/8th the space as one for a medium character. It would have half the dimensions. It would essentially be a great big iron box. Like two squares. Then have it pulled by a mount spell or a mule. Or a party member. Hell, you could even put it on a tenser's floating disk. If PF material is available, you could possibly pull it yourslef if you had an ant haul spell going.


A couple of eternal wands of Prestidigitation can dig you a hole, since the spell can clean 1 cubic foot of dirt per round. Just have it "clean" the dirt from the ground nearby for a few minutes, lower your supplies and wright into it, roll an wagon over it, and remove the wheels. Hide the wheels in the hole, and retrieve them when you're ready to restore the wagon to full maneuverability.

[edit] Oh, and feel free to hide the wagon somewhere inconspicuous.

Prestidigitation can't do anything another spell does, which means you cant use it to emulate move earth or whatever. Besides, you can't make dirt cleaner- only lemon scent it.


Theoretically, if a person can only do an 8 hour day*, then a creature which can't tire (like a construct) should be able to work 24/7, and accomplish 24 hour crafting days. That ought to result in accomplishing 3 "days" of work in the same 24-hour period.

*Which is strange because the 8-hour workday is a very recent concept, whose institution was a product of the 20th century labor movement's efforts to create humane working conditions. Many people, especially poor people, and those in the developing world, can and do work much longer than 8 hours each day. Maybe it's because D&D humans are much weaker than real-life ones; being seriously threatened by housecats and going down after 2-4 punches on average.

Yeah, I've always been confused by what constitutes a day in D&D, too. Only being able to walk 8 hours a day and not 10 or 12 has always seemed sort of strange to me, too. Why does a level 20 barbarian with the knowledge of how to keep he and his 10 friends safe in a hurricane on a featureless plain, the ability to cleave his way through entire armies, wrestle giants, pick up boulders, ignore sword blows that would kill lesser men, suddenly get fatigued when he walks for 8 hours and two minutes?


Actually, there's repeated studies that show you get maximum productivity done with a 40 hour work week - anything more and the error rate rises to the point that you're spending more time fixing things.

It's easier to push this for extremely basic manual labor, but for intellectual tasks (accountant, clerk, etc.) it's pretty noticeable. For creative tasks, it's *incredibly* noticeable.

So if enchanting is an intellectual or creative task, the most productive Wizard only puts in 40 hours. Anyone doing more gets exhausted, stumbles the spells, and then has to spend another 2 hours dis-enchanting and re-enchanting that section.

got any citations for that? Sounds interesting.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yeah, I've always been confused by what constitutes a day in D&D, too. Only being able to walk 8 hours a day and not 10 or 12 has always seemed sort of strange to me, too. Why does a level 20 barbarian with the knowledge of how to keep he and his 10 friends safe in a hurricane on a featureless plain, the ability to cleave his way through entire armies, wrestle giants, pick up boulders, ignore sword blows that would kill lesser men, suddenly get fatigued when he walks for 8 hours and two minutes?

Well a day's overland travel presumes time taken to rest, eat, set up camp and of course sleep. Not being fatigued after eight hours of walking is already a feat of endurance. A high survival skill doesn't let you get any less tired from walking.
If your walking more then eight hours in a day it means your skipping meals, rest breaks or sleep any of the three should cause fatigue.

Also the barbarian(or any character) is entitled to a Constitution check to avoid becoming fatigue for every hour past eight. (so eight hours +2 minutes does nothing) A high level barbarian might get in several extra hours before succumbing to the MINOR penalties of fatigued, even then he'd have to fail the saves again to become exhausted.

And really what 20th level party walks from Point A to Point B? How often are high level parties put on forced marches to anywhere?

[unseenmage]

And really what 20th level party walks from Point A to Point B?

D&D-esque olympians maybe?

[Threadnaught]

You'll need the Improved Homunculus Feat so you can move further from the Dedicated Wright and you'll want it to craft an item that allows two way travel for each of you and whatever resources/items are to be transported.

Okay, apparently Segev already got there. Once you can afford the 30000gp price tag, go to the Emerald City and get your Ring Gates, or wait until you're level 15 and spend a paltry 11250-15000 to make your own.

[unseenmage]

You'll need the Improved Homunculus Feat so you can move further from the Dedicated Wright and you'll want it to craft an item that allows two way travel for each of you and whatever resources/items are to be transported.

Okay, apparently Segev already got there. Once you can afford the 30000gp price tag, go to the Emerald City and get your Ring Gates, or wait until you're level 15 and spend a paltry 11250-15000 to make your own.

We're level 6. It's a one time playthrough of the adventure. I doubt strongly that we'll hit level 15.

Additionally no Custom Magic Items. If it's not printed it doesn't exist. (An understandable limitation for an Artificer really.) Will edit OP to reflect.

[Ruethgar]

Try and get lucid dreaming so you can wield god-like power. The most important part is the ability to change vegetation and buildings with the application of animation and association rituals. Create a dedicated wright that is also a birdhouse and you can freely create buildings made of any material you want for crafting. If you want to push it further, make the materials native to the material plane so you can take them out, otherwise just have the wright make gargantuan sums of the same item and take them all out, something like 1% will become real. Or, create a plant associated wizard to gate/wish the items out of your dream, that is if you don't want to just use the infinite wizards to fabricate instead of the wright. Make spellbooks out of living plants, for some reason you don't need to know about something to create it in the dream so just create plants with spells etched into them for the wizards to use. Make sure to specify that all of the things in your dreamscape as permanent so your dream wright is still working while you are awake for a juicy 10 days of work in 24 hours.

Yay abuse of 1337 skills!

[Threadnaught]

We're level 6. It's a one time playthrough of the adventure. I doubt strongly that we'll hit level 15.

Well that hits most suggestions hard.


Additionally no Custom Magic Items. If it's not printed it doesn't exist. (An understandable limitation for an Artificer really.) Will edit OP to reflect.

I was actually referring to a schema or possibly a wand, at a higher level.


Prestidigitation can't do anything another spell does, which means you cant use it to emulate move earth or whatever. Besides, you can't make dirt cleaner- only lemon scent it.

*ahem*


Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, a prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.

Emphasis mine. I'm sure dirt, counts as material.

When someone mentioned using the flavouring aspect of this spell, other people instantly cited the Horrible Taste spell, without taking into account that Horrible Taste makes a creature or object taste bad to anything that bites/attempts to eat it. Prestidigitation makes it taste bad to people who don't like a certain flavour.
It's not Minor Wish, but it isn't limited to wasting a spell slot either.

Prestidigitation could work to dig a pit, but it would take a very long time to dig one small enough for a diminutive creature to have any workspace, you would be better off just using Move Earth.