Alternatives to Animated Shield? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Segev

2013-09-06, 06:56 PM

I wasn't joking about Invis. It avoids the silly image, keeps the shield bonus, and gives you an invisible doohicky to do things with.

I had a mage who used Shieldbearer on an invisible tower shield that he put an Enveloping Pit on the back-side of. His familiar lived in there and brought him the stuff he wanted, so he could just reach "off screen" and pull things out of nowhere.

JaronK

2013-09-06, 07:01 PM

I'd go with "forget the AC, it costs too much anyway".

JaronK

Tvtyrant

2013-09-06, 07:08 PM

Item of shield spell? Get the magic necklace of death armor from Tome of Magic? Kappa Shield?

Firechanter

2013-09-06, 07:15 PM

1 Feat: Improved Buckler Defense
You still suffer the -1 attack penalty and lower Shield bonus from it being a Buckler.

Now we're getting somewhere. I thought there was a feat like that, but didn't think of looking for "Buckler", and a search for "Shield" turned up nothing.

This may be a working basis for a custom magic item. A buckler or targe that replicates the effect of an Animated Shield without actually being one. It's okay if it costs the same in the end, and I can suffer a one lower AC. Makes about as much sense as Defending Armour Spikes.

edit: I'll go through the other suggestions tomorrow, thanks already!

Platymus Pus

2013-09-06, 07:17 PM

Suppose you can't stand the silly image of every two-handed melee character running around accompanied by an animated shield from mid level onward.
What alternatives are there, apart from sacrificing up to 7 points AC?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm
I don't know why you'd want to give up an animated shield since there is a spell that is just as silly

TuggyNE

2013-09-06, 07:38 PM

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm
I don't know why you'd want to give up an animated shield since there is a spell that is just as silly

Yes, but it's invisible. So no problems!

Maginomicon

2013-09-06, 09:42 PM

Segev

2013-09-06, 09:51 PM

You can ban the animated shield property and instead require they use the shieldbearer spell in Spell Compendium. Then only a select few are running around with floating shields and only for a short amount of time.

I...don't think that the OP is DMing, nor that this would solve his problem other than to make it not an option for his fighter-type at all (rather than merely an option whose visual he finds unappealing).

DeltaEmil

2013-09-06, 10:00 PM

Kazyan

2013-09-06, 10:04 PM

Ring of Force Shield. After you're done full attacking, take one hand off your greatsword and activate it. Both are free actions.

Snowbluff

2013-09-06, 10:20 PM

How about Bracers of Shield? Like Bracers of Armor, but Shield Bonus?

Crake

2013-09-06, 10:35 PM

be an abjurant champion, their shield spell is a swift action to cast, is invisible and gives the same AC bonus as a +5 towershield without the -2 to hit

Firechanter

2013-09-07, 03:11 AM

Okay first off; I play some, I DM some, and I don't like the Animated Shield in either event. But as a DM I don't want to just ban and leave the melees with no good options. As a player, I don't want to hose myself. My player character in question is a single-classed Warblade, so no spells.

* Making it invisible: yeeaaah... that seems like a bit of a hack. ;) But it's kind of a fallback to go to when all else fails.
* Ring of Force Shield: that would prevent me from making AoOs (I use a Spiked Chain). But the basic idea is not bad.

The ring also seems to be way overpriced for what it does. As per the item creation guidelines, a continuous Shield spell item shouldn't cost more than 4K; 6K if it's in an unusual slot, and give +4AC rather than +2.

For a custom item, something like a bracer or targe that projects an invisible Force shield that gives at least +4AC would be fine.

On another note:
@JaronK: you really ignore AC entirely? I know you keep getting hit anyway, but at least you prevent the standard enemy from hitting you with lots of Power Attack.

TuggyNE

2013-09-07, 04:37 AM

* Ring of Force Shield: that would prevent me from making AoOs (I use a Spiked Chain).

Why's that?

The ring also seems to be way overpriced for what it does. As per the item creation guidelines, a continuous Shield spell item shouldn't cost more than 4K; 6K if it's in an unusual slot, and give +4AC rather than +2.

Wrong guideline; proper guideline is one of the AC bonus ones, or similar, which are 1000 * bonus2 (for enhancement to existing armor/shield), 2000 * bonus2, or 2500 * bonus2. In this case, bonus2 is 4, and wrong slot penalty is +50%, so it's a little under 1500gp * bonus2 base, apparently.

Zanos

2013-09-07, 04:41 AM

On another note:
@JaronK: you really ignore AC entirely? I know you keep getting hit anyway, but at least you prevent the standard enemy from hitting you with lots of Power Attack.
At high levels, many CR appropriate encounters pretty much have a hit chance of "yes, unless you spent half your WBL on AC." You could just throw some money into miss chance items like a cloak of displacement and use the rest of your money on something else.

Firechanter

2013-09-07, 05:01 AM

Why's that?

Because you have removed one hand from your two-handed weapon. To put it back you need a Free Action, and as far as I know you can only take Free Actions on your own turn.
(You can use them any time you perform an _Action_, but AoOs are not classified as Actions in the SRD.)

At high levels, many CR appropriate encounters pretty much have a hit chance of "yes, unless you spent half your WBL on AC." You could just throw some money into miss chance items like a cloak of displacement and use the rest of your money on something else.

I know, Miss Chances are certainly a must-have, but they don't solve the entire problem. Most of them are 20%, which is not all that much; the 50% stuff are limited short-term buffs (costing some action to activate); and then there are many enemies out there that ignore concealment entirely.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2013-09-07, 05:21 AM

Get a custom use-activated item that triggers on rolling initiative that gives you a Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm) or Force Screen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/forceScreen.htm) (augmented) spell/power effect. If your DM tells you that rolling initiative is an abstract mechanic that cannot trigger a magic item, put it on a Ring of Anticipation (DotU) and it triggers whenever its roll-initiative-twice ability is used. You'll want it at a caster level of at least 2 for duration.

Andezzar

2013-09-07, 05:43 AM

Item of shield spell?Just don't try to get it for the amount of gp the guidelines suggest (1800/2000 gp, depending on whether it uses a command word or is use activated). I would not have any problem with an item that costs the same as a +2 animated mithral heavy shield. That item would confer +4 shield AC, no ACP no ASF just like the custom item. The other goodies (immunity to Magic Missile, ability to use the item immediately after dispel (command word only) etc.) I would give away for free at that price.

TuggyNE

2013-09-07, 06:00 AM

Because you have removed one hand from your two-handed weapon. To put it back you need a Free Action, and as far as I know you can only take Free Actions on your own turn.
(You can use them any time you perform an _Action_, but AoOs are not classified as Actions in the SRD.)

OK, let me rephrase: what makes you think the ring of force shield requires you to dedicate a hand to holding the weightless shield it creates?

Firechanter

2013-09-07, 06:42 AM

OK, let me rephrase: what makes you think the ring of force shield requires you to dedicate a hand to holding the weightless shield it creates?

The item description, which reads
this simple ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC).

In short, that thing doesn't wield itself.

Get a custom use-activated item that triggers on rolling initiative that gives you a Shield or Force Screen (augmented) spell/power effect.

That sounds pretty good. That Ring of Anticipation is on my list anyway.

I would not have any problem with an item that costs the same as a +2 animated mithral heavy shield. That item would confer +4 shield AC, no ACP no ASF just like the custom item.

The difference to the animated shield would be that this could be buffed up to +5 by your friendly party caster by default, for a total difference of 3 AC. Also you can't load other properties onto it. I'm not saying this would make the item unfeasible, just that it would be justified to not cost as much.

That said, such an item as proposed by Biff would be pretty cheap; if applied at CL2 as secondary ability, the property would cost around 6-8K if I'm not mistaken.

Prince Raven

2013-09-07, 06:59 AM

Optimise damage so that no one survives long enough to attack you.

Firechanter

2013-09-07, 07:16 AM

Optimise damage so that no one survives long enough to attack you.

Of course, that's Plan A. But if you're up against a large number of enemies, you can't always knock everyone out before they get to strike back.

Darrin

2013-09-07, 07:18 AM

Dastana.
Chahar-aina.
Defending armor spikes.

Snowbluff

2013-09-07, 07:20 AM

Dastana.
Chahar-aina.
I keep hearing AC has to be expensive. Evidently, this is not the case.

elonin

2013-09-07, 07:20 AM

Andezzar

2013-09-07, 07:44 AM

There is an Ioun stone that gives +1 insight bonus to ac. It wouldn't be hard to imagine an ioun stone that adds some bonus to shield ac. There is also a item of shield spell. Both of these ideas leave you short of a magic item slot. There is the Destana from Arms and equipment guide.And how is a small stone orbiting the fighter's head less silly than a shield hovering next to him? Just pay double on the shield item and you won't need a slot.

2xMachina

2013-09-07, 07:56 AM

You know... I like the idea of a melee type wielding invisible weapons and invisible shield and armor.

Try dodging the invisible weapon coming your way, with no idea how it even looks like.

Clistenes

2013-09-07, 08:04 AM

1 Feat: Improved Buckler Defense
You still suffer the -1 attack penalty and lower Shield bonus from it being a Buckler.

But the original post says "two-handed melee character", which I interpreted as a "user of a two-handed weapon" not as a "two weapons fighting melee character".

You can use a buckler for defense while using a two-handed weapon for attack without taking the feat.

As for the Shield bonus, a Heavy Shield gives a +2 bonus to AC versus the Buckler's +1 bonus...so the difference is quite small. The penalty to attack hurts, but the +6 bonus to AC of a +5 Buckler balances it, I think.

By the way, I also hate the Animated Shield. It ruins the image of the warriors, lampshading the stupidity of their dependency on magic bling at mid and high levels.

Andezzar

2013-09-07, 08:06 AM

You know... I like the idea of a melee type wielding invisible weapons and invisible shield and armor.

Try dodging the invisible weapon coming your way, with no idea how it even looks like.There are no rules for such weapons. So an attacker with an invisible weapon would behave just as one with a visible weapon. There aren't any different rules for defending against specific weapons either. You can defend yourself against a greataxe just as well wielding a dagger or another greataxe, even though IRL there would be significant differences.
Due to the abstraction of the combat system, whether protective items are visible or not is irrelevant as well. AC is AC, whether the item that grants it is visible or not.

Firechanter

2013-09-07, 08:12 AM

Dastana.
Chahar-aina.
Defending armor spikes.

Thanks, never came across the first two as I don't play OA. Dastana look like bracers to me. So I take it that's an untyped bonus -- wonder if they can be enchanted or buffed with Magic Vestment?

Defending Armour Spikes are lovely; particularly if you've got a caster with Chain Spell in the party.

Try dodging the invisible weapon coming your way, with no idea how it even looks like.

=D The thought is amusing, but what do you do if you misplace the weapon at the campfire in the evening? ;) -- anyway, I guess that would be just for show with no mechanical benefit.

2xMachina

2013-09-07, 08:35 AM

IMO, even with no mechanical benefit, the visuals make up for it.

Andezzar

2013-09-07, 08:46 AM

Defending Armour Spikes are lovely; particularly if you've got a caster with Chain Spell in the party. It is pretty dubious that those even work:
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.Armor spikes are not swords and as such cannot transfer their enhancement bonus to AC.
If your DM rules otherwise (because that is probably RAI), be sure to also get two spiked gauntlets, a shield spike on the animated shield and two blade boots. That's up to +30 AC with Greater Magic Weapon for a little more than 13800 gp

=D The thought is amusing, but what do you do if you misplace the weapon at the campfire in the evening? ;) -- anyway, I guess that would be just for show with no mechanical benefit.True Seeing, See Invisibility, blind sight etc.

Darrin

2013-09-07, 08:53 AM

Thanks, never came across the first two as I don't play OA. Dastana look like bracers to me. So I take it that's an untyped bonus -- wonder if they can be enchanted or buffed with Magic Vestment?

Dastana is also in the Arms & Equipment Guide, so if your DM says "No Oriental Adventures", you may be able to at least get that one by him. And yeah, they are sort of big bracers, only they don't take up the arm slot. It's not an untyped bonus, it's actually an armor bonus (on both the table and in the item description), but it explicitly stacks with other armor/shield bonuses.

Segev

2013-09-07, 08:57 AM

I admit to not being sure why it's a "hack," but I'll lay out the pricing real quick: 1 casting of Invisibility and Permanency from the same caster will cost you 20*9 gp + 50*9 gp + 5000 gp.

If you've got good haggling skills (Diplomacy, Appraise, or whatever you convince the DM of), you might talk him down to the first calculation being 20*3, since you're not really getting a 9th level caster's worth out of the Invisibility. Or you could hire a separate wizard, if you can get them both together, since you need the Invisibility to be active when Permanency is cast.

The 50*9 is the cost of a 5th level spell by the minimum-level caster. The 5000 gp is to pay him for the 1000 exp he has to expend on making it Permanent.

Total cost: 5630 gp, or 5510 gp if you can negotiate the CL cost down on the Invisibility.

This has relatively minor impact, mechanically (as in, only people who don't look at you with See Invisibility or the like will be fooled that you don't have a shield, and how often is fooling people into thinking you don't have a shield really that useful?), but it does achieve the visual you want. It's probably the least expensive option, despite being not chump change, and it has the advantage of letting you apply whatever enchantments you want to the shield, including whatever spells can be cast on shields.

You could even put a Defending Shield Spike on it if you wanted, before you paid for the Permanent Invis. Invisibility wears off if you attack, but since it's on the shield, as long as you never attack with it, you should be fine. YOU attacking with anything but the shield should also be fine.

I mean, seriously; you've paid five and a half thousand gold pieces for looks.

Segev

2013-09-07, 09:04 AM

Oh, another thought, slightly cheaper, perhaps: Have the shield enchanted to produce the illusion that you're one-handing whatever weapon you're wielding, and are actually using an arm to wield the shield itself. It's just an illusion - I'd use Silent Image or Disguise Self as the base, so level 1 spell - so it's easy to see through for those who care about such things, but it's cosmetic and maybe a mild circumstance bonus to intimidation checks if you convince people you're that incredibly strong.

(level 1 spell) x (level 1 caster) x (2000 gp for continuous) x (1.5 for 10 minutes duration spell - we'll use Disguise Self as it has a longer duration) = 3,000 gp

It only having one specific illusion, and a mild one at that, and being unable to be a universal Hat of Disguise, I think can ad hoc cancel out the normal price increase for being in an unusual slot.

Clistenes

2013-09-07, 09:11 AM

It is pretty dubious that those even work:Armor spikes are not swords and as such cannot transfer their enhancement bonus to AC.
If your DM rules otherwise (because that is probably RAI), be sure to also get two spiked gauntlets, a shield spike on the animated shield and two blade boots. That's up to +30 AC with Greater Magic Weapon for a little more than 13800 gp

I would allow to give the Defending property to any weapon (spikes included), but I would only allow to use one Defending weapon at a time. So, if you are using Defending Spiked Gauntlets, you can't use your Defending Spiked Shield or your Defending Spiked Armor.

OldTrees1

2013-09-07, 09:20 AM

But the original post says "two-handed melee character", which I interpreted as a "user of a two-handed weapon" not as a "two weapons fighting melee character".

You can use a buckler for defense while using a two-handed weapon for attack without taking the feat.

By the way, I also hate the Animated Shield. It ruins the image of the warriors, lampshading the stupidity of their dependency on magic bling at mid and high levels.

I too interpreted it as a 2handed weapon. However I interpreted the buckler rules as losing the shield bonus if a weapon is wielded in/using the off hand. (So TWF or THF). If I am wrong would you please enlighten me?

You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a -1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.

PS: I am all for using Bucklers over Animated Shields. Since MIC has items that grant feats, perhaps a Buckler that grants Improved Buckler Defense?

Clistenes

2013-09-07, 09:32 AM

I too interpreted it as a 2handed weapon. However I interpreted the buckler rules as losing the shield bonus if a weapon is wielded in/using the off hand. (So TWF or THF). If I am wrong would you please enlighten me?

PS: I am all for using Bucklers over Animated Shields. Since MIC has items that grant feats, perhaps a Buckler that grants Improved Buckler Defense?

I always interpreted the phrase "if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round" as "if you use an off-hand weapon (as in using the weapon in your off-hand weapon when dual-wielding) you don't get the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round"

But I can see that your interpretation could be the right one.

Anyway, crafing a Buckler that grants the Improved Buckler Defense feat to the wielder is a possible solution. Throw the Divine Shield feat too, it you can.

Firechanter

2013-09-07, 10:03 AM

It is pretty dubious that those even work:Armor spikes are not swords and as such cannot transfer their enhancement bonus to AC.

I consider this a clerical error.

If your DM rules otherwise (because that is probably RAI), be sure to also get two spiked gauntlets, a shield spike on the animated shield and two blade boots.

The "sword" wording aside, there is nothing in the rules to stop you from doing that, as the bonus is said to "stack with everything else". Note how it also applies to your Touch Attack. However, it would be reasonable to rule that "Defending" is a bonus type of its own and so multiple Defending weapons won't stack with each other.

That's up to +30 AC with Greater Magic Weapon for a little more than 13800 gp

However, your price calculation is off. Since you can only put additional properties on weapons with at least +1 Enhancement bonus, each Defending weapon will set you back 8000GP.

Andezzar

2013-09-07, 10:12 AM

However, your price calculation is off. Since you can only put additional properties on weapons with at least +1 Enhancement bonus, each Defending weapon will set you back 8000GP.You are right of course. I should know better.

Now what other items can be used as magic weapons and thus AC enhancers. I came up with 6. There must be more.

Firechanter

2013-09-07, 10:19 AM

Now now, you make it sound like you want AC to actually be useful.

Andezzar

2013-09-07, 11:46 AM

Now now, you make it sound like you want AC to actually be useful.Of course it is for not taking melee or ranged weapon damage. Granted those are not the most dangerous attacks but enough HP loss will kill you just as dead as a Save or Die spell.

TuggyNE

2013-09-07, 05:59 PM

The item description, which reads
this simple ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC).

In short, that thing doesn't wield itself.

See, I saw that before, but perhaps due to my preconceived notion that a protective ring that does nothing more than generate a temporary transparent shield would be too bizarre for the default, figured that was largely irrelevant. But now I'm having trouble figuring out what wording they'd use if they really did want the ring to do exactly that, beyond the wording they did use, so I guess you're right.