Optimized damage per level (melee classes)

[Irk]

What would you consider the optimized damage output for an optimized melee character at the following levels. Furthermore, if you could post the build archetype used to achieve said damage output, it would be much appreciated

so, the levels: 1(just out of curiosity), 3, 6 , 9 , 12 , 15 , 18

for example, without charging, how is 200+ at ninth level without charging?

[Snowbluff]

I hear a good guideline is 10 damage/level. Honestly, I dislike optimizing for damage. I'd rather go for more interesting status effects.

Warblade6 with Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Leading the Charge.
2d6+9+18 (Power attack) + 6 (Leading the Charge)= ~40 damage on a charge. Rather conservative and no magic items. Other options an be used to increase damage, like a charging maneuver.

A Paladin on a Horse, optimized for this (Power Attack, Rhino Rush, Power Attack, Valorous Weapon), can do like 1d8+21 (Power Attack) time 4 (Mounted x2, Rhino rush x2, Spirit Charge x2, Valorous x2) = ~102

[Irk]

I completely agree. Optimizing for damage is never particularly difficult, it's far more interesting to optimize other capabilities. However, that whole 10 damage/level actually makes a lot of sense, even if it's not exactly the most optimized output possible.

I'm just trying t fulfill a party role, and I suppose I would like to be as successful as possible, but I will make other characters for this campaign taking this into account.

Thanks again snowbluff, thats exactly what I was looking for.

[Snowbluff]

:smallsmile:

May I make a suggestion? I hear Goliath Dungeoncrasher Fighter2/Warblade4 with the Knockback feat can make a rather good damage dealer and melee controller.

[prototype00]

Pathfinder? Or 3.5?

prototype00

[Irk]

I was considering dungeoncrasher, so ill check it out for sure. If you have any other interesting ideas, please post them.


and sorry for the lack of clarification, 3.5.

[Snowbluff]

I was considering dungeoncrasher, so ill check it out for sure. If you have any other interesting ideas, please post them.

Knockback is awesome. Just push someone into a wall and then slam them into it over and over. >:)

Hm.. let me dig around...

Azurin Duskblade with Arcane Preparation and Shape Soulmeld: Lightning Gauntlets. At level 5 that's 1d8+7+5d6 (Shocking grasp) + 2d6 (Lightning Gauntlets). Since Shocking Grasp would add +3 to the attack against most foes, Power Attack would work quite well.

Standard Duskblade is Power Attack, Knowledge Devotion (Personally, I dislike it due to Duskblades low Int focus and lack of skill points overall), Arcane Strike.

Swordsage with Setting Sun tripping Maneuvers and Improved Trip for extra attacks.

Archer Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter. Level 4 Ranger, get a Tiny Sea Snake Urban Companion for free poison to add to your damage.

[Immabozo]

Well, a centaur war hulk/hulking hurler/bear warrior with a few feats can throw boulders that attack touch AC for an average about 200,000 damage. The exact math hurts my brain. But it's disgusting. EDIT: IIRC, over 1,200,000, but I am not sure if I am remembering the feat progression and math right.

But I had a level 12 that averaged 125 or so damage per hit (with 4 attacks per round) and almost one shotted a barely damaged adult blue dragon with a crit and a normal hit for 16D8 +127 damage. It was glorious. Level 15 he was practically soloing things far above his CR with about 200 damage per hit (ish) with 5 attacks that each hit 3 squares.

Barbarian 1/Warrior 2/Barbarian 3/something for 1 BAB/Bear Warrior 1 (Lemme know if you need the rules lawyering, it's simple, but taken for granted, due to tho obvious RAI conflict, but SRD did not change it) Warhulk 5 (in that order). War Hulk is an interesting class, but level 4 or 5 might be your stop point, unless you want that juicy capstone!

Or, at level 5 you can take War Hulk and then get the skilled enchantment on your weapon and use it to cover BAB prereq for Bear Warrior.

Race, anything large. If you can convince your DM, use Half Minotaur/half ogre templates from Dragon Mag (just leave out the broken "if you gain a size category from the application of this template, gain stats per the gaining size categories table in Monster Manual 1".

Feats: Power attack, leap attack, imp. bullrush, shock trooper, combat reflexes (make sure you have a good dex on this character), knockback, combat brute (this one needs to get approved by the DM for getting rid of the imp sunder prereq and losing the sundering cleave combat maneuver)

Dungeoncrasher is also fun with this guy. But reach + knockback + combat reflexes means you are a mean machine. Who needs AC? Every enemy is your baseball and with a +40-50 bull rush, you are ready to hit a home run!

And combat brute should give you another x1 multiplier on your power attack, with bonuses to hit and damage based on how far you pushed them, also adding, should be, another +10 or +15 to your bullrush!

This is a fun character! ACFs, frenzy and spirit lion totem barbarian ACF for +1 attack and pounce, and Bear Warrior replaces most of the normal rage stats, but in frenzy ACF, it replaces very few of them. So you are trading away what you have already traded away for a huge poweer boost!

[Irk]

Wow, these are great! keep em' comin'!

The build I am currently using is a warblade 7/fighter 2 that uses aptitude along with a bunch of extra attack feats like snap kick so he gets 4 attacks/round +movement, but I'm going to have to drastically change him I think.

[Snowbluff]

Sorcadin. Power Attack + Wraithstrike.

Wizard6/Spelldancer1/Swiftblade9/AbjChamp4 (I consider this the Swiftblade equivalent to the Sorcadin). Persistent WraithStrike Power Attack.

Telflammar Shadowlord.

Warlock1/AnimaMage10/HFW1/LegacyChampion.

Mailman.

Crusader with Divine Surge + Aura Chaos. Dice!

Oh, under Wizard Swiftblade and Sorcadin, Add Greater Mighty Wallop.

You know what? JPM Crusader with Aura of Chaos and Greater Mighty Wallop. :smalltongue:

[Immabozo]

Surprise, surprise, Druid makes a great one too. Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 2/Nature's Warrior 5 can take the form of a troll at 7, a cave troll at 8 and a war troll at 12, doing good damage (but not great, around weapon damage +40 ish per hit), with a con based DC or be stunned for a round, with regen, DR, SR, and a few other abilities, also, extremely high AC.

Built right, at level 22, this guy can make 16 vorporal attacks per round! (doesn't scale though, the form needed is available at level 22.

Can be built differently to crush faces at lower levels than 22

EDIT: Cave troll his higher damage than war troll, but more spike damage (one claw misses and his damage is cut in half, cause no rending) and lower defenses

[Piggy Knowles]

Unless my main goal is something else (battlefield control, status effects, etc.), the bare minimum I consider acceptable for a damage dealer is to 2HKO a level-appropriate foe. For figures, I look at Optimization by the Numbers (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869122/Optimization_By_The_Numbers), which gives the average AC, saves and HP for monsters at each CR.

So, for your provided ECLs:

ECL 1: 7 damage per round against an AC of 16.
ECL 3: 14 damage per round against an AC of 17.
ECL 6: 35 damage per round against an AC of 19.
ECL 9: 66 damage per round against an AC of 22.
ECL 12: 99 damage per round against an AC of 22.
ECL 15: 113 damage per round against an AC of 30.
ECL 18: 152 damage per round against an AC of 33.

That's the minimum I'd consider acceptable - I want to make sure that it doesn't take me more than two rounds to take out the average enemy I'll expect to be facing.

At higher levels, I actually try to shift to doing this in one round instead (double the damage, basically). The reason? Because high-level combat can often be decided in that first round. I don't want to give something like a dragon or a balor an extra round of attacks!

EDIT: I'm also of the opinion that overkill is pointless. Once you get to the point where you're taking out level-appropriate foes in a single attack routine, move on. Otherwise, you're continuing to throw resources down a hole for no good reason. A creature tends to be just as dead at -10 as it is at -100.

[Snowbluff]

Wildshape? Neraph Divine Minion entry into Master of Many Forms.

[SowZ]

A level 1 Water Orc with 18 Str and Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barb with Max Jump ranks, Dragonborn with wings for +10 jump, a +6 Str Mod in Barbarian mode? You should be able to use Battlejump for double damage. Slap on Power Attack and Powerful Charge, that's another 1d8+2 damage. Take the reckless trait for another +1 damage.

Use a Greatsword. That's 94 damage if both attacks hit and you roll average damage. That's +7 to hit, too.

At level 3, you can have Barb 1/Dng. Fighter 2. That's two more feats. One of those can be Reckless Rage. The other has to be Improved Bull Rush. So now we basically have three attacks. 172 damage if all three attacks hit with average damage rolls and that is with a +8 to hit.

I'll do the other levels later.

[Piggy Knowles]

I posted this in another thread not too long ago, but my basic level 6 charger would be:


Frostblood Orc, Barbarian 1/Ranger 3/Fighter 2

1. Barbarian1- Power Attack
2. Ranger1- Track
3. Ranger2- TWF/Rapid Shot, Extra Rage
4. Ranger3- Headlong Rush
5. Fighter1- Improved Bull Rush
6. Fighter2- Leap Attack, Shock Trooper

ACFs: Whirling Frenzy, Lion Spirit Totem

So, let's say we're totally naked, with an 18 base Strength to start and a nonmagical greatsword. On a charge at level 6, we've got three attacks, each dealing...

2d6 + 12 (str) + 12 (power attack) + 6 (Leap Attack giving +100% of your PA bonus - some argue that this should be 12, but we're going conservative), for 2d6+30 per swing. Not bad for level six, but not great... except that Headlong Rush means that it's all doubled. That means each attack is doing at minimum 64 points of damage, and with three attacks total on the end of a charge, the LEAST amount of damage you're doing is 192, or 204 against a favored enemy. At level 6, without a single item except for a nonmagical greatsword. (Average damage is actually 218, or 230 versus a favored enemy.)

Add in even remotely level-appropriate items - nothing crazy, maybe a +1 greatsword, something to boost your strength up by a couple of points, perhaps a weapon crystal for a bonus damage here or there, and you're easily over 300.

That's for a fairly simple level 6 build focused on charging. No reliance on Battle Jump (which has a lot of weird rules interactions and is poorly written), not using anything in any way other than it was intended. Just a big orc swinging a big greatsword at something's face and turning it into a fine red mist.

[SowZ]

A level 1 Water Orc with 18 Str and Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barb with Max Jump ranks, Dragonborn with wings for +10 jump, a +6 Str Mod in Barbarian mode? You should be able to use Battlejump for double damage. Slap on Power Attack and Powerful Charge, that's another 1d8+2 damage. Take the reckless trait for another +1 damage.

Use a Greatsword. That's 94 damage if both attacks hit and you roll average damage. That's +7 to hit, too.

At level 3, you can have Barb 1/Dng. Fighter 2. That's two more feats. One of those can be Reckless Rage. The other has to be Improved Bull Rush. So now we basically have three attacks. A +1 weapon, maybe. 176 damage if all three attacks hit with average damage rolls and that is with a +9 to hit.

I'll do the other levels later.

So at level 6, that's Barb 1/Fighter 4/Warblade 1. Punishing stance for, essentially, +4d6. Two new feats. Headlong Rush and Leap Attack. A +2 Str. Belt. So that's 656, or 1312 damage if you are lucky enough to have a valorous weapon, (possible within WBL.) I did conservative Leap Attack, too. This is pretty comparable to Piggy were we to give him Battlejump and a Valorous weapon.

At level 9, it gets kinda cool, too. Barb 1/Fighter 6/Warblade 1/Duskblade 1

Pretty similar, here. Except you get Blade of Blood for +3d6 damage. You can have a Valorous Weapon pretty assuredly now as well as a +2 level bonus to Str and a +4 belt. Another +2d6 from Vicious is plausible, too, but you will have very few other magic items.

Another feat, too. Time to get Shock Trooper. That's 1982 damage.

[Snowbluff]

1982? Could you make that into a list?

[Piggy Knowles]

This is pretty comparable to Piggy were we to give him Battlejump and a Valorous weapon.

Yeah, Battle Jump really does up the game considerably. I just really dislike it, and don't use it on principle. It tends to be overkill anyhow - Headlong Rush or Valorous plus pounce alone is usually enough to produce far more damage than anyone will ever need. Hood builds that can produce 10,000+ damage are fun thought experiments, but that's a well-traveled road.

[Irk]

Yeah, I would like to echo snowbluff here, with a second request to list out how you achieved that damage exactly. I don't doubt you at all, I'm just curious.

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, I would like to echo snowbluff here, with a second request to list out how you achieved that damage exactly. I don't doubt you at all, I'm just curious.
Yeah, I'd break it down myself, but I am really tired.

Btw, hard labor officially makes you dumber by making you exhausted.

[Irk]

I'll take a s tab at it

so raging strength is 34 for +12

-power attack and leap attack give +27 with conservative interp.
two handed +18
-I can't figure out punishing stance +1d6, cuz I'm missing something, so I'll just list as +1d6 and have someone correct it later. so +1d6.
-blade of blood +3d6
-dungeoncrasher fighter 4 +8d6
-Greatsword 2d6

so base damage is 14d6 + 45

the valorous + battlejump+ headlong rush together quadruple this damage making it 56d6+180

then 3 attacks on a charge makes it 168d6 + 540

the average is 1128, but I'm sure im missing some obvious stuff.

[Piggy Knowles]

D&D multipliers don't multiply dice of damage, with the exception of base weapon damage. They only multiply static boosts. So, the 1d6 from punishing stance, 3d6 from blade of blood, etc., won't be multiplied.


MULTIPLYING DAMAGE
Sometimes damage is multiplied, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage dice and add all modifiers multiple times. Total the results. Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as those dealt by precision damage abilities (see page 42), are never multiplied.

[Snowbluff]

D&D multipliers don't multiply dice of damage, with the exception of base weapon damage. They only multiply static boosts. So, the 1d6 from punishing stance, 3d6 from blade of blood, etc., won't be multiplied.

I've suspected as much. The numbers looked a bit off, and multiplication errors using 3.5 rules are often the cause of this.

This was keeping me up at night. Buonnotte. *zzz*

[JanusJones]

There are two answers for this question.

The first: enough to kill anything your CR with ONE HIT.

That's my answer. As Snowbluff noted, status effects are FAR more important. HP damage is well-nigh useless, since damage does NOTHING to limit the effectiveness of an enemy. If a melee character, with his generally limited ability to hit ONE THING (unless highly optimized for AoOs, in which case damage is generally not the point), can't KILL what he PROBABLY hits, he's useless. The Wizard can make everything on the battlefield useless.

The second answer, I suppose, is the nuanced one: whatever doesn't piss off your DM.

[Irk]

oops, I knew I was messing up somewhere. Also, snowbluff, do you speak Italian?

And I completely agree Janus

[Curmudgeon]

You can't combine Leap Attack (requires a horizontal leap) with Battle Jump (only works when you drop straight down).

[Irk]

I'm sure there is some tricky thing that lets you do it, but it wasn't present here i guess.

[SowZ]

You can't combine Leap Attack (requires a horizontal leap) with Battle Jump (only works when you drop straight down).

It doesn't say that. It just says a horizontal jump for one and a vertical for another. It never says a straight drop, just a drop. There is no reason you can't travel diagonally downward. You can do both.

My number is slightly inflated though, since I just found out the average damage first then multiplies everything rather than figuring out all the damage individually and then mutliplying. (Meaning I ended up multiplying all damage, even bonus damage dice, which is incorrect.)

Should be fairly small, though. I doubt it will make too much of a difference. I'll go through it all step by step here in a bit with a different damage total for if you believe that Leap Attack and Battlejump aren't compatible. (I still contend that they are fine. You need a really high jump score to get both the height and forward momentum required for each feat, but if you can fly it shouldn't be an issue to do both.)

[Firechanter]

Warblade6 with Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, and Leading the Charge.

I've recently seen a similar suggestion and didn't say anything back then, but now I'd really like to know how you get both Leap Attack and Shock Trooper at level 6.
Shock Trooper has BAB +6 prereq, Leap Attack 8 ranks Jump, for which you need to be level 5. So you can have either one or the other.

[SowZ]

I've recently seen a similar suggestion and didn't say anything back then, but now I'd really like to know how you get both Leap Attack and Shock Trooper at level 6.
Shock Trooper has BAB +6 prereq, Leap Attack 8 ranks Jump, for which you need to be level 5. So you can have either one or the other.

It could land on an even Fighter level. Shock Trooper is a FBF.

[Firechanter]

Yes, I know, but Snowbluff talked about a Warblade 6. And the other day, someone (I forget who) talked about a Fighter 4 with Leap Attack. Apparently, people are just forgetting the prereqs on certain feats.

[SowZ]

Yes, I know, but Snowbluff talked about a Warblade 6. And the other day, someone (I forget who) talked about a Fighter 4 with Leap Attack. Apparently, people are just forgetting the prereqs on certain feats.

Yeah, you'd have to go Barb 1/Warblade 5 or something so the Warblade bonus feat lands on level 6.

[Firechanter]

That wouldn't help either, because the Warblade draws his bonus feats from a very limited list; the most useful of which are Combat Expertise and Improved Ini. See ToB page 23. If it were a free feat, he could take Leap Attack at level 5, but that's not the case.

[Piggy Knowles]

If you look at the build I posted, it does have all of these by level 6, and Headlong Rusg to boot (despite it not being a fighter feat and requiring BAB +4) thanks to frostblood orc Endurance shuffling and well-timed fighter feats.

[Curmudgeon]

It doesn't say that. It just says a horizontal jump for one and a vertical for another. It never says a straight drop, just a drop. There is no reason you can't travel diagonally downward.
Benefit: You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent.
OK, I exaggerated the difficulty of combining these just a little. A horizontal leap in D&D is always 4x as long as it is high. If you are at least 5' above them at their leading edge, you would move at least 10' horizontally by the time you drop to their level. So yes, you could combine these if your opponent was Huge or larger in size and you attained the minimum height necessary at the leading edge; that way you'd still be above them when you dropped to their level — assuming you survived the AoOs from moving through their threatened squares. (Note: it says above, not "at higher altitude"; this won't ever work for creatures of Large size or smaller.)

There is a reason you can't travel diagonally downward for most sizes of enemies, right there in the rules.