Clerical Conundrum

[thebladeofchaos]

and I'm willing to bet Conundrum is spelt wrong

Why is it the majority of the time I come here I have an issue for you guys to resolve? I do come here often, heck I come here to look for the majority of my DnD questions (and I do get some good ideas) but really, I need to post as just a random guy on the forums more often.

But anyway, my conundrum for you all....how do you...I suppose force a Lawful good Cleric and Paladin to heal you if they won't do it of their own volition unless you change religion?

This kinda requires a bit of context. We're playing a Birthright game with the party comprising a Fighter and Wizard (player A) A paladin and a Cleric of Haelyn (player B) and a Ranger and Rogue. (Player me) we all have flaws (the Cleric can't leave someone down and the Paladin is zealous. both of mine have flaws that lower skills)

So, the Cleric and the Paladin basically won't heal us unless the flaw kicks in or we make a god oath that we'll follow Haelyn (and the pair need to make a god oath which I don't see why). The rogue, I don't mind defecting to him so much. The ranger, however, is a devout follower of Eric (there is a background element relating to why)

Is there a way to make the Cleric and Paladin heal the party without having to change to Haelyn or am I stuck having to change to the god? (or buying an item that does such an effect)

There are background details regarding my characters that I can explain if you think they would help at all.

this, knowing me is a very petty issue, but considering the DM is not playing it as unlawful not to heal me under current circumstances, it's starting to seem like the Paladin and Cleric are holding all the power, and considering we're playing at a level where my ranger has only one spell, I don't want to be stuck relying on only my ranger to heal 1d8 a day.

thanks in advance

[Doc_Maynot]

Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

May not be unlawful, but IS against the code of conduct pallys must follow.
Not usually the strict guy when it comes to paladins but that's just wrong. The pally should have fallen for refusing to heal you.

[Segev]

What do the Paladin and Cleric rely on your PCs to do? I doubt your characters are useless to the party, and I suspect there are things the Paladin and Cleric want to achieve that your rogue and ranger are needed for.

Refuse to do them unless the Paladin and Cleric agree to heal your characters.

You could also hire a cleric of Eric as a hireling to go out with you and provide healing.

Buying a wand of Cure Light Wounds - or even Cure Moderate Wounds - should also be an option; I believe both are on the Ranger list.

[Segev]

May not be unlawful, but IS against the code of conduct pallys must follow.
Not usually the strict guy when it comes to paladins but that's just wrong. The pally should have fallen for refusing to heal you.

Fallen? Maybe not immediately, but certainly after being a stubborn jerk about it. Is their god one who is so mercenary? Perhaps your rogue or ranger should start questioning whether the Cleric and Paladin's faith in their god is really all that strong, if they view their worship as a business transaction. Whereas the ranger will not foresake Eric even when it is expedient. Obviously, the ranger's faith is stronger.

[Doc_Maynot]

Fallen? Maybe not immediately, but certainly after being a stubborn jerk about it. Is their god one who is so mercenary? Perhaps your rogue or ranger should start questioning whether the Cleric and Paladin's faith in their god is really all that strong, if they view their worship as a business transaction. Whereas the ranger will not foresake Eric even when it is expedient. Obviously, the ranger's faith is stronger.

I only mentioned the falling cause it seems like this has been going on for an extended period of time in their campaign. I like your approach to the matter as well.

[thebladeofchaos]

Erm, to make this easier, I'm going to reply first post then go down. so....read in order.

If it's anything, both my characters are Chaotic. However, the Ranger (ESPECIALLY) should benefit considering she is running Exalted. However, under the current situation, we are doing an evil deed as a whole. (that I hope to avoid given time and effort) we're basicaly setting Tournen's Northern countys up to be invaded by Alamie (Which oddly benefits us as we are in Alamie) and places the blame on the five peaks. Sounds very chaotic and evil to me as we know this is a set up, we know this is slaying guards who work for Tournen (with the false reason Moergan has given being 'they are brigands disguised as such') We aren't a legitimate authority as we are all landless lords. I know he's doing it as part of his flaw, but his flaw is to be a religious Zealot and to never leave a man down (which we argued as leave none unconcious annoyingly)

So far, the main roles my guys cover are sadly mostly covered by the maximising veteran of the game (who's fighter deals +22 AT LEAST with a fist and who's saves are 28 for charm person). the ones tha aren't covered are disarming traps (sadly nearly covered by detect traps, but the DM has thrown none at us so far) Damage out put as far as I can, diplomacy, bluffing, tracking, (apart from tracking, the damn wizard) and night watches (the Cleric, despite only needing two hours sleep, does only one watch when it comes up. my Elf, needing only 4, does two) I'm also the sneaky blighter with the rogue, able to sneak in, do my damage and sneak out, and the Ranger deals quite a bit of damage when caught up in a fight (god I love Darkleaf) I do make the gold and get a good intrigue however. My character sheet isn't to hand, so I can't go over it fully.

Whilst I like the hireling idea....I'm a poor blighter and I want the EXP. when I get chance, I'll get an item of cure Moderate wounds. it makes the most sense sadly. both are on the list, but we're running at too low a level for decent spells. (fighter types, level 5, spell casters 3, others, 4) I've barely gotten spells (after debating that or the spellless varient in Complete Warrior)

Haelyn...Well, I'd encourage you to wiki him, but the alignment is LG, his portfolio is Courage, justice, chivalry, rulership and war. His domains are Good, Justice, Law, Nobility and War. And in relation to Erik, his view is 'Erik values the natural order, yet this sometimes leads him into conflict with the flowering of civilization. Try to respect him, even when he is difficult to understand.' Neither friend nor foe. He has at times debased the other gods in favour of Haelyn (which you expect) but has also claimed that Erik is not a god which I believe is Blasphemous and would have Erik's followers want to lynch him. (nevermind Erik)

I started that. Suffice to say in our game earlier it didn't work, as (apparently) it's not evil to not heal. I will start to question his faith as, if he is saying that the cost to be healed is a convertion (and an oath that, if broken will kill you) then it is no way true faith. Rather it is a forced religion. I do find it ironic that my Ranger is higher in the books of the Exalted then the Paladin. she may not have converts, but the Ranger has an aura of good thanks to one feat. (God bless the Exalted feats (literally in game))

Honestly, we're on week 2 and so far he has only cast the healing spells AT ALL tonight. and then it was to bring my rogue from -5 to 1 using lay on hands. Whilst the Paladin is a lot stronger then the Ranger, I'm going to head this off at the pass before it becomes a matter of life and death for my ranger, losing 30 HP from one engagement and then being refused healing leaves a sting in the mouth (it gets better, the Cleric wouldn't even do a heal check over night to give her double her level as opposed to one unless she converted)

As a subnote, he's not that bad a guy. (hell, he's a good guy really) he just likes to roleplay this way in order to get a laugh and such. The DM allows it as he wanted a bit of a ruction in the party from our alignments (Hence the fact we start working in an evil duchy doing what is bluntly an evil deed. if the Paladin doesn't lose his alignment for that, I don't see why) I'm going to try and work a plan out during the week to stop the deed being commited, but it's not going to be easy. I have a feeling the DM(Moergan)'s got a backup plan to keep an eye on us (we have marked weapons, which I think may be used for scrying at some point) I find it to be a pain in the ass when a party fighter/jack of some trades is unable to do his job because of injuries and the healers won't heal. (it's tempting to play the healers next time, that way I can play the fanatic idea right)

[JusticeZero]

I'm a poor blighter and I want the EXP. when I get chance, I'll get an item of cure Moderate wounds.Cure Light Wounds is much more efficient in GP per HP terms. Lesser Vigor would be even better, but I don't think you have that on your spell list. Since you are poor, it's important to figure out where you can get the most unbang for your buck.

(it's tempting to play the healers next time, that way I can play the fanatic idea right)Learn to play them well and you also get to have the potential power to smack the holier than thou fighters down and shame them. Not that that ever turns out very well in practice afterward. I'm more and more enamored of banning most of the core classes in favor of new ones.

[thebladeofchaos]

What's the gold difference in general between the various items? I'm willing to get it ASAP, and considering we run in gold bars (2000 gold per) it won't take too long, I just don't know when we get paid nor when the party will be able to upgrade our gear. (and if the DM has his way....it'll be spent quickly on actions :smallannoyed: ) I just spent everything on the equipment I have right now. (Trust me, it got VERY expensive considering the mass of items bought that covered what I needed. Masterwork Darkleaf Breastplate *Half happy half sad face*)

I've been wanting to play other then core classes (heck, I'm the only one in the group who does consistantly. (My fave class is warmage, and attempting to go Rainbow Warmage) but the group eventually banned other then core because of a few times we played them and apparently overdid the game. (we scrapped Theurg (sp?) because we got true name and managed to turn a wizard into a master of all spells. We scrapped warmage because I kept playing them (and surviving which is weird) and the others didn't like how I played, despite all my deaths being on the front line. We scrapped Warlock (and all Complete arcane) after my last warlock's blood ability kicked in causing an earthquake that flooded a section with lava and actually gave the Paladin his mission in life (explain please?) Samurai and Kensai were banned once I played one Kensai with the arguement being it's too eastern, despite it's only failure being my luck after a battle we won. (our unit got destroyed after fighting back the gorgon, and all the PCs, save one who retreated, died)

A lot of the times we banned classes...it's because of some stupid reason. the 'best' reason we banned a class overall was when we banned Hexblade...reason? 'because it's crap'

Well, it's not the best, but come on! give it a chance. those 1's and 2's can mount up.

[Darrin]

1) Talk to the DM about reminding the players that they have codes of conduct.

2) Report the PC's behavior to their respective religious orders.

3) Next session, stand up and say "Out of character, you guys are being selfish d-bags. If you don't want to play a COOPERATIVE RPG, then we can put away the books and just teabag each other on Call Of Duty or whatever. Dial down this fanatic healer crap or I will bring in a Greenbound Summoner Druid who spends every battle summoning a horde of celestial warhorses, and you'll get to sit there and watch while I roll up each one individually, give them names, personalities, hopes, dreams, and orbital friendship cannons."

[sleepyphoenixx]

This is a player problem, not a character problem. I sincerely doubt that your character would travel and adventure with a bunch of people who would leave him to die if he doesn't convert. He would find a new group with reasonable people.
OOC you presumably all want to play together so it's common sense that your characters work together. Not that there's anything wrong with a little IC conflict but there should at least be the basic understanding that the game comes before any individual power fantasies.

[JusticeZero]

the group eventually banned other then core because of a few times we played them and apparently overdid the game.
Oh yes. Your next character will be a Cleric. And it will be gloriously obscene. After that, you can try for a Druid or a Wizard. Then ask about those other classes again, particularly the other classes that have access to healing and status repair (I asked about these a few days back) since they really are less powerful than those three. 'Core only - for balance reasons' has become a bit of a peeve with me, for various reasons. Basically, I accidentally snapped a game's balance in half over my knee because I was asked to play "the healer", in a Core game, and Clerics are among the most ludicrously overpowered classes ever created; you don't even need feats or equipment to make the rest of the party feel like the tin dog.

Healer options (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299764)
A guide to healing items (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_%28And,_why_you_will_be _Just_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal%29)

[Kyberwulf]

This sounds like an alignment issue.
lol Dreaded as that sounds.
Holding back healing on account of who you follow sounds evil. Especially if they are in need of the heal. That is extortion.

[Segev]

So, their god respects your god, even if they're not "allies." And their god says to show respect to your god's ways as long as they're not standing in the way of the flowering of civilization.

It sounds like these devout followers of that other god are actively standing in the way of followers of your god while you - the followers of your god - are actively trying to promote things of benefit to both your deities.

Heck, you're trying to obey the lawful commands of your duke, and these LG individuals are hindering that, when they're trying to obey the same lawful commands.

Sounds Chaotic, to me, at best.

If the DM won't say it's wrong, then have your charismatic people start publicly questioning whether the cleric's god is truly that selfish. Spread rumors about what he's doing, and make it a question of whether the devout followers of the cleric's god are capable of working with any other religion. Unless their god is all about the holy crusade to smite all unbelievers and shun the infidels (meaning "anybody who worships any other god"), these guys are spreading awful PR for their god.

You might even go to their temple and ask about it. Do it as a religious exercise.

Oh, and go back to your lord who assigned you this quest and be sure to let him know that the cleric and paladin refused to do more than the barest minimum to keep people alive, and hindered the quest/mission, because they will not work fully with those who don't share their faith.

That will likely get them not given further assignments.

Of course, since you're concerned about working for an evil lord to begin with, perhaps you should engage your plan, and then make sure your new boss (I assume you'll be seeking different employment with more good-aligned people) knows that this cleric and paladin are not team players. Do it back-handedly, so you're not just muck-spreading, but make them aware. The new boss could make working for him require that they heal people even if they're not of the same religion. After all, he can assign other clerics and paladins and doesn't need prima donas. Leave them with the option of working for an evil lord (and falling from their god's grace) or working for the new one (and having to be team players). Better still if you find a new boss who's a member of their faith and might express disgust that they'd extort people into conversion.

[thebladeofchaos]

So, small update. I got talking to the DM (he's my brother, and he's back for the weekend, so not hard right now, but next week I'm out for like 3 weeks. the group will be doing other wargames as I go to Uni and hope to return at times) and...well, here's something to worry about.

Right, so, Alamie (where we were based) is ruled by Duke Alam...and he is Neutral evil. his regent is meant to be neutral and the last voice of reason Alam has, but in this, he pings so evil that we shouldn't be working for him. There was a hanging that all PCs saw of innocent people that we couldn't prove either or. Apparently this should affect our alignments.

So, it's pretty much 'You should have lost your exalted feat for doing not doing X'. The paladin would have suffered as well, so there's one thing. I think it's going to turn into if I keep going with my claims, I'm going to lose out as well. I only lose Nymph's kiss so not much.

But anyway, to now respond to you all. Now I wish I could quote at the same time lol.

...next time I make a cleric, I'm coming to this forum and asking how to make it badass and how to play it. Hell, I'll even say EVERYTHING that is outside of making the character in the game. (Even blood abilities if it's Birthright)

Darrin: talked to him today and got the above. I don't mind having to pay for Atonement for the one feat I lose. (although, character wise it'd have an effect on her from an RP point of view) Can't tell the relgious orders yet as stuck in a campaign but I threatened to tell the church he is a splinter of and it didn't make a mark (heck, on the contrary, he is apparently a part of it) I also have a feeling I'd be thrown out for saying that...although it's getting close...and I like the idea.

Sleepy: the only flaw in this is my ranger works for my Rogue, so she's the only one who isn't a part of the group at heart, but the rogue has been denied in the past, so flaw unflawed. If he does carry on, I am going to pul the 'he's a lawful good paladin playing a chaotic neutral perspective' card.

Zero: I'm really tempted now. I never really play divines so it'd be a good change of pace. it's not so much a matter of unbalancing, it's just when we play them, we'll keep playing them and someone will tire of them (or, in the case of every uncore class I play aside from Warmage, people don't like me staying out of the way of fire....what's a warlock meant to do? and the Kensai jumped in SAS style. (balls first))

Kyber: And this is my primary arguement. it's forcing converts and making prisoners. True faith comes through voluntary devotion, so the Paladin is breaking the natural order at least.

Segev: Whilst I would like to do that, my best cha is 14. the Wizard and fighter already converted and our lord is...well, evil. the cleric is the one who has the diplomacy power (at least +18 on every roll, +10 from an item, so I assume 7 with 1 from stat) If you can find a copy of the Birthright rules it explains what we can do, I can't explain too well, but my rogue will be doing an intrigue to draw in the church. and if the DM plays it as the Paladin and Cleric are in the right, then I will question him personally as to why he is playing it as such. I would love to invoke a holy crusade upon their skulls, but the next character that comes along will be just the same.

The problem I have now is what I need to do. and this is kind of off of the topic but it does need some input as I'm debating what to do. Our mission is to go and 'take back' some signal towers for our neighbour from brigands. We know this is a blatent lie and is actually disabling the early warning the duchy has and will make it easier for us to invade. under our current conditions, this is both evil and chaotic, and I would rather have no part in it.

However, the plan right now is either go and do the deed, coming back and trying to solve home issues; go to the site with my rogue (ring of invis. :D ) alone and warn them to evacuate, then have my pair defect to said duchy (alignment is at least good) alone, or just leave, go to the duchess, warn her of what is occuring and get everything dealt with as soon as.

I want to defect to the duchy in question (Tournen if your wondering) but....I doubt the party would follow.

[Segev]

Okay. If your brother, the DM, feels you should have fallen for certain things, I think your whole game might have deeper problems of dissatisfaction between players and DM brewing that you're blessed to have stumbled across the first signs of early. Talk to him again, not in any sort of accusatory way, but in asking him what he expected to see from the good-aligned characters. Why didn't you act against this evil? If it was fear of consequences IC, ask your brother if the consequences would have been as bad as you fear. If he won't answer...

...well, what you need to do is figure out what he expects, at least enough not to be a jerk in pursuing your IC aims, from the game. Ask him if quitting this evil Duke's service and working to overthrow him would be "stupid; game-ending stupid." If so, you need to find out what it is he wants that he'd allow you to play good people working for this evil man. If not, then you should perhaps play MORE to your character's feelings.

Perhaps the corruption of watching this Duke's acts has worn on all your souls, and seeing true crass injustice and corruption in a cleric and paladin of a LG god is your breaking point. Whether you do so dramatically or quietly is up to you, but it may be time to start working to either overthrow or separate from this Duke. Use the evidence that your LG friends are acting more LN or LE with their extortion racket to illustrate the error of standing quietly by while evil is done. It's staining all your souls. You, as an Exalted character, feel it at least as keenly as should the Paladin, and if the Paladin isn't realizing it, you may need to help him do so.

Because from what you say your brother talked to you about, he may be concerned that your good PCs are not acting like paragons of virtue when he expected you to.

The other reading I get from the limited amount you've posted regarding the DM's discussion with you is a potential bit of favoritism for the PAladin and Cleric, but I hesitate to believe that. Of course, all my readings are based on very little content and next to no context aside from that of "two PCs are screwing mine over in game," so take them with a grain of salt.

[Segev]

However, the plan right now is either go and do the deed, coming back and trying to solve home issues; go to the site with my rogue (ring of invis. :D ) alone and warn them to evacuate, then have my pair defect to said duchy (alignment is at least good) alone, or just leave, go to the duchess, warn her of what is occuring and get everything dealt with as soon as.

I want to defect to the duchy in question (Tournen if your wondering) but....I doubt the party would follow.

Actually, your answer's in here. Defect. Try to talk the Paladin and Cleric into it, as well; they can't be happy with their current lord.

Alternatively, you're CG, right? Defect in secret, and become a double agent. Help "disable" the towers, and then turn this into a crushing defeat of your former Duke's armies when he marches. Work quietly to set the Neutral advisor up to take over, or to take over yourself if you can get the political support.

While being a double agent, try to help the Cleric and Paladin of this LG god see how awful their Duke is. Do so without revealing your new allegiance, of course, unless they look ready to quit the Duke's service (in which case, enlist them).

The double agent option I suggest if the DM thinks the party would rather stay with the evil duke. This will let you stay with the party.

Otherwise, switching sides is useful and good. Honestly, given what you've said about your talk with the DM regarding your alignments...I think he expects you to do some sort of defection away from evil towards good. Especially if you're not LG, where the "L" part might cause you ethical difficulties.

[ArcturusV]

Somehow I don't QUITE see swordpoint conversions (Which is effectively what "Convert or I'll let you die" is), as being the epitome of Lawful Goodness. I don't recognize the god in particular they worship, so I don't know if there's some big bugaboo about that. But he IS a Cleric, so he should have decent wisdom. YOu might want to discretely point out to him that someone who is supposed to be that wise probably realizes that conversion by threat hardly ever works (As a standard good dogma) and produces good believers. And that only low Wisdom, foolish people throw away potential allies over minor disagreements (Not like your God is evil is he?). That generally a Good character converts people by example, not by transaction or threat. That instead of dropping ultimatums he should seek to convert the ranger by showing the virtues of a good life in righteousness. Done lightly? It's a lot less annoying. And a lot less likely to cause battlefield issues.

[Radar]

I can't say anything useful on the in-character problems, but as far as healing items go, you'll get the most mileage out of Healing Belt from Magic Item Compendium. It costs 750gp and gives you decent healing recharged every day.

[RolkFlameraven]

Heh, too much of that and they would have woken up dead after my turn at watch. I would have returned to my lord, told him they died well in battle and would he please assign us a new healer?

How does a Paly work for an evil lord? I can see a knight, or caviler or samurai but a paladin? I mean this sounds like a Blackguard who is pretending to be a Pal...

Are you sure of their alignment? I mean you could be a good person in an evil campaign and just not know it! Barring that your whole group should have either disserted and tried to become Robin Hood or have defected over to the other side for the purpose of getting support for over throwing the tyrant that is currently in charge.

You can't do evil and be good as the ends to not justify the means, that's part of the core of being exalted IIRC.

You seem to be the only one who has a problem with what is going on, as such you can get an atonement; talk to your DM and see if its ok for you to become a spy for the other side. If so then do so, work for the grater good and save as many people as you can. Just know, in the end, that you might have to kill your teammates, or barring that RUN THE HELL AWAY. But seeing as you are the sneaky types, the latter shouldn't be to hard.

and the healing belt is a grate cheep healing item.

Oh, lastly unless they are going to roll a SM check on you, you could always just lie about converting on the rogue, your ranger needs to have a nature god for its spells and they have to respect that don't they?

[thebladeofchaos]

And now for the fun of the update of the Email I recieved....as in from gitp.

So, regarding the paladin and Cleric effectively threatening to let me die if I didn't join Haelyn's religion....DM's ruling: it's not ungood and it's not unlawful. they can choose to do so. My response: well, I can't do my job right if they don't do theirs. We've literally hit the end of a watch before they pray for spells, and you know what I got told by the DM: I never healed you to full all the time anyway.

....it's before you pray for spells, and they have oodles of spells left. I don't care if the world is ending, you have time to do so. 3 cure lights would do it.

Also, on the matter of the hangings: no penalty. We didn't have proof one way or the other. this might come to bite us in the ass though.

but...on to the replies.

quick note: I can give you a copy of the play reports one of the players is making if that gives you context. so far it's...decent aside from a few names here and there.

I asked about the whole defection thing, and his reply is 'he can plan for it'. He'll do what he can to keep the party together, but no garuntees. I just hope I don't end up fighting the party fighter.

My characters are defecting most likely. this last job will need a bit of work to finish without causing casualties but we'll get it done then leave. Hopefully we'll get the wizard to join us, but...well, no promises.

I would ask the Cleric and Paladin, but the problem is the paladin is the one who pinged that the guy we're working for NOW is evil, and his response to this affair being an evil deed: 'we've not done an evil deed 'yet'. when we get there we'll kill some brigands'

....no comment on that front. how he's still Lawful AT LEAST I'll never know.

I am worried though....ok, say I don't defect and I do the whole 'double agent' thing...I'm working at least against an equal level rogue with more power then me. I know I need to stay at least a step ahead, but...well, any advice on that?

on the swordpoint converstions....apparently (DM) it's neither non-good nor non-lawful.....explain how please? in his words, it's his right to choose who gets healed and who doesn't. so...I can't do my job because he won't heal me, so we'll all get injuried more so I still can't do my job so catch 22. what's worse is he's not following the dogma his own god has set. What's going to happen when he encounters paladins of the god's god son, who is CG. is he going to say those guys are following a false god, the son of his own god?

Healing belt...that'll be so useful right now. thank you.

I've been so tempted to stab him, but it's more harm then good sadly. I kill his currents, he brings in new to kill my currents etc etc. it'll rip the party apart and I don't want to do that. we need them more then I need healing sadly. I just hope he'll grow the **** up.

We don't work for the lord directly. we own holdings in the realm (all except the Ranger who holds holdings for my rogue) and have been called in. we didn't know we'd be in an evil realm till game day.

I do more good then the parties evil. so far the closest to evil the ranger has been is working with one, but that's leading to something. it'll be a good end to good means, no sacrifices unless they are her life.

it's not so much my issue alone...I'm the only one he won't heal and the only one not of Haelyn. Both mine follow other gods, which he should respect. but on the grounds of defection, we all have issues, but the Wizard is unsure, I'm sure and am defecting in some regard, and the paladin...doesn't seem to care.

If I make the oath, the healers are insisting on a God Oath (think Cleric penalties for changing changing to death but for you regardless of class). no way out of that. I doubt he cares about my spells, but I need them for a bit of....sneaking around. this mission will show that much at least.

Honestly folks....if I did defect and ended up splitting from the party (DM claims he can handle it) what are my odds? the fighter and wizard are STUPIDLY strong, the paladin and cleric are our only healers and are decent, mine....well, under optimised. if I did defect, I'd need to escape a lot.

[thebladeofchaos]

As bad as this may sound, I need to prepare for the occasion if it should arise.

what is the counter to a paladin and cleric who are LG? I know that sounds like a weird question, but I'm working with a Sneak attacking Rogue armed with a crossbow/bayonet (better VS armor in this world) and a melee style ranger. What's the best way to take them down?

The wizard and fighter I stand no chance against unless I get dispell magic.

[Hamste]

For the paladin it is easy...just be incredibly passive aggressive to him until he attacks you. Seeing he wasn't being harmed by you and you are not evil he will fall. Then go on either side of the cleric and make sure you get all the attack of opportunities and sneak attacks you can. If possible you could try recruiting the wizard and fighter to you.

[thebladeofchaos]

Wow, that's....actually very simple lol.

Still, considering he's been working for evil, I would hope he loses his powers if it came to that point. if it doesn't, I hope he loses the Ego.

[Firebug]

Where is this God Oath from? Perhaps some way to circumvent that would be useful. And... does this oath require you to follow the tenets of that faith? Because if both the Paladin and Cleric have God Oaths and are not following their tenets...

[Coidzor]

and I'm willing to bet Conundrum is spelt wrong

Why is it the majority of the time I come here I have an issue for you guys to resolve? I do come here often, heck I come here to look for the majority of my DnD questions (and I do get some good ideas) but really, I need to post as just a random guy on the forums more often.

But anyway, my conundrum for you all....how do you...I suppose force a Lawful good Cleric and Paladin to heal you if they won't do it of their own volition unless you change religion?

This kinda requires a bit of context. We're playing a Birthright game with the party comprising a Fighter and Wizard (player A) A paladin and a Cleric of Haelyn (player B) and a Ranger and Rogue. (Player me) we all have flaws (the Cleric can't leave someone down and the Paladin is zealous. both of mine have flaws that lower skills)

So, the Cleric and the Paladin basically won't heal us unless the flaw kicks in or we make a god oath that we'll follow Haelyn (and the pair need to make a god oath which I don't see why). The rogue, I don't mind defecting to him so much. The ranger, however, is a devout follower of Eric (there is a background element relating to why)

Is there a way to make the Cleric and Paladin heal the party without having to change to Haelyn or am I stuck having to change to the god? (or buying an item that does such an effect)

There are background details regarding my characters that I can explain if you think they would help at all.

this, knowing me is a very petty issue, but considering the DM is not playing it as unlawful not to heal me under current circumstances, it's starting to seem like the Paladin and Cleric are holding all the power, and considering we're playing at a level where my ranger has only one spell, I don't want to be stuck relying on only my ranger to heal 1d8 a day.

thanks in advance

Honestly your mistake was in playing with a **** who apparently likes getting caught up in this kind of petty BS (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html) without making it clear that the game was going to be about petty BS in the first place.

Also, obligatory link is obligatory. (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1127121)

[thebladeofchaos]

I can't find the stuff on the oath sadly. It's either a blood or god oath. Sadly it can be done under duress (we had a paladin before who took an oath to be revived) What it does is force you to act according to the oath, and if you don't, you lose one blood point per day. when your out of blood points, it's hp a day permenantly. Right now, my rogue has 41 blood and...I think it was 27 hp at level 4. (low con) so...well, basic maths folks.

If you can find it, maybe you can find a loophole. we didn't get told all the details when taking it sadly. (DM didn't have to to be fair, and it was a different DM)

Coid: thanks for the links. they've helped out a lot to be fair.

[navar100]

This is why I ended up playing clerics for the longest time since 2E. Not that a cleric must only heal, but whenever I didn't play the cleric of the party the one who did play the cleric was always a donkey cavity refusing to heal anyone but himself. I had a character die because of it, but the DM understood what happened and fiated an out. I had to start playing clerics for personal character survival. I became an expert at it, and today I am given praise on how well I play clerics and their new equivalent oracles.

Anyway, all of that was before I learned I didn't have to take it. This is a metagame problem. It is no different than the rogue who steals from the party or the wizard who casts Charm Person on the party. Tell the player to stop being a donkey cavity. You're not demanding they only heal and nothing else. You're not demanding healing when you're at 35 hit points out of a maximum of 40. Bring this up with the DM. If he refuses to fix the matter to enable the donkeying and the player refuses to change, then leave the game. There is no hope otherwise. If you must stay in the game for whatever reason including you're really having fun despite the donkey cavity, change a character to one who can heal or invest ranks in Use Magic Device and get a wand of Cure Wounds.

[Segev]

Okay, at this stage, I have to ask the elephant-in-the-room question: Are you having fun?

From what you've said, there is nothing that the party needs your characters for. You could have them refuse to help the cleric and paladin in any way (even leaving them to die at enemy hands "because they wouldn't convert to your god"), and they wouldn't notice.

It also sounds like the DM is on "their side," believing that there's no problem.

It may be time to simply defect and refuse to work with them, if you tihnk the DM really can handle it and you think that'd be fun. Or it may be time to quit the game because the player(s) of the cleric and paladin are not actually letting you be effective.

The healing belt will help. So you might find yourself less hurt by their prickishness.

But unless you're having fun, I'd just quit.

If you think it's fun still, then I suggest the healing belt and a wand of cure light wounds for backup. You can use it; you're a ranger. Then, do the defection and either go double agent or simply defect. Don't fight the party. Just give the enemy to whom you're defecting all the information they need in order to orchestrate a total defeat and probable capture of the party. Use the politics and armies aspect of the game to your advantage.

You can even make a point of not helping the cleric and paladin unless they seek atonement for their selfishness, swearing a "god oath" to never refuse to heal those with whom they are working again.

Most of all, reciprocate their attitude. As long as they won't heal you, don't help them. Do your job, but don't so much as wake them up if you're on watch and bad guys are coming. Just slip off alone. If the others in the party would be harmed, wake them and let them decide whether to help the paladin and cleric. Don't participate in rescue missions if they get captured. If in combat, don't come to their aid. They won't work with you; don't work with them.

[thebladeofchaos]

Ok, when I want to make a cleric, I'm coming on here before I do so. That way I can get a kickass cleric.

So far, I'm enjoying the game, the issue has only just come up (like literally, right at the end, he told me what was going on. when he left the rogue on one hp, I thought it was because we were done for a while but that was a sign I missed) so I'm giving it this week to decide if I'm enjoying it or not before I give the DM my word on whether I'm carrying on or not. (and, if I do carry on, it will be ammo when I play the healer and decide I don't want to heal them) Right now, I just need to get to a point where we can restock then I can get some gold and get some magic items.

I do have my job of disabling traps....but we've been outdoors consistantly....who puts a trap in the great outdoors on a trade way? a genius that's who. So....the only thing my ranger has been needed for is another pair of hands, and my rogue is playing trained diplomat. only problem is the cleric is using diplomacy to convert and that's through a magic item. so really, I'm for removing traps and scouting.

I will be defecting, and when I go to Tournen, I will be asking the Duchess to force the pair under a god oath to render healing to allies REGARDLESS of religion on request. Either that or I'll force them under my sword.

As much as I love the list of suggestions, Sage, doesn't that clash with Exalted? the reason I haven't been doing that so far is due to that, but if it does work without ruining my alignment, I'll do it before you know it.

[thebladeofchaos]

Ok, the good news folks: thankfully this has resolved itself.

Whilst my Ranger held her faith in Erik, the paladin and the Cleric decided that, 'after proving your faith, you can be an honourary member of the church of Haelyn' (well, his church) so...thankfully, this whole thing has sorted out thanks to a bit of conversation between players and common sense on both sides.

Well, I think it's more a bit of emailing saying how he should be due to his paladin and cleric following a direct ally of my god's, but not healing a follower, either that or the power of annoyance. I hope not annoyance but...well, I have a habit.

At least now we can focus on the jobs to come. seems my Rogue has gotten herself into a jam sneaking around. It got slightly better when it came to finding out he (somehow) secretly healed me. What's the roleplay reason when I was trying to figure it out before he admitted to it.

'I am blessed by Erik for my faithful service'
Swiftly followed by the Cleric going.
'no, it was me. your god didn't'
My brilliant response.
'I disbelieve that. it must be Erik for not relenting'

:D

Thanks for the advice and such folks. I'll be sure to come back here with less annoying questions. (Considering the last time I came here was a firearms rogue build, yeah)

Maybe next time it'll just be 'how to make a badass archer' or maybe just 'optimised warmage, how to'