No Con: What happens to an Undead's HD?

[LogosDragon]

I don't know if this was rectified elsewhere, but how does calculating HP work for Undead since they literally don't have a Constitution score? I tried the Lich page, Undead Type page, and even Skeleton page in the SRD, and I still can't figure it out. *scratches head* How does turning a character into a lich or other type of undead affect their HP? Do you just turn everything into flat d12s? That kinda implies a Con score of 10 in itself, but that's irrelevant. How does it work out?

[Lateral]

Yeah, flat d12s. Creatures with an ability score of – are treated as having a bonus of +0 on related checks (assuming they're still capable of making them).

[Lonely Tylenol]

I don't know if this was rectified elsewhere, but how does calculating HP work for Undead since they literally don't have a Constitution score? I tried the Lich page, Undead Type page, and even Skeleton page in the SRD, and I still can't figure it out. *scratches head* How does turning a character into a lich or other type of undead affect their HP? Do you just turn everything into flat d12s? That kinda implies a Con score of 10 in itself, but that's irrelevant. How does it work out?

Flat D12s. A CON score of -- has an effective modifier of +0 for the purpose of determining bonus hit points (but is itself not a score that can be increased or decreased). The only exceptions to this are creatures that gain bonus hit points from ability scores other than CON, like, say, Vampires in Pathfinder (I can't think of a 3.5 example off the top of my head, but they exist).

[eggynack]

Indeed so. I don't know where it says that fact directly, but it's pretty easy to tell how it works just by looking at the stat blocks. Zombies are all xd12+3, because of toughness, and skeletons are all straight xd12. That indicates no adjustment whatsoever, which is accurate to how the game works.

[Greenish]

The only exceptions to this are creatures that gain bonus hit points from ability scores other than CON, like, say, Vampires in Pathfinder (I can't think of a 3.5 example off the top of my head, but they exist).Karrnathi Dread Marshal, for example, gets Cha to HP. There are other critters that also have Unholy Toughness (and as far as I know, they all tie to Cha).

In PF, I believe, all undead get Cha to HP (but only d8 hit dice).

[TuggyNE]

I don't know if this was rectified elsewhere, but how does calculating HP work for Undead since they literally don't have a Constitution score? I tried the Lich page, Undead Type page, and even Skeleton page in the SRD, and I still can't figure it out. *scratches head* How does turning a character into a lich or other type of undead affect their HP? Do you just turn everything into flat d12s? That kinda implies a Con score of 10 in itself, but that's irrelevant. How does it work out?

You (almost always) turn everything into d12s with no HP bonus per HD, but the template will tell you the details. (Skeletons turn all RHD into d12s and add some more; liches turn all HD, RHD or otherwise, into d12s, and so forth.)

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, flat d12s. Creatures with an ability score of – are treated as having a bonus of +0 on related checks (assuming they're still capable of making them).
Correct - this is spelled out in the Nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities) description. Incidentally, that section also makes undead immune to ability damage to their mental ability scores, even though they're not called out as such as part of the type description.

[TuggyNE]

Incidentally, that section also makes undead immune to ability damage to their mental ability scores, even though they're not called out as such as part of the type description.

Yeah, that's not obnoxious at all. Another entry for the Dysfunction Thread, methinks!

[Zanos]

Correct - this is spelled out in the Nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities) description. Incidentally, that section also makes undead immune to ability damage to their mental ability scores, even though they're not called out as such as part of the type description.
Oh, that's actually rather interesting. Necropolitian just got that much nicer.

[Spuddles]

The boneclaw from mm3 I believe, has unholy toughness. Gets cha to hp. Great platform for building a gish on- gestalt with warlock or add some sorc on it.

The dry lich template from sandstorm grants unholy toughness.

Undead created in a desecrated are gain 1hp/hd. If it's a descrated altar, they gain 2hp/lvl. The corpse crafter feat also grants 2hp/hd to undead created, as does the wizard necromancer acf from unearthed arcana. Dread necromancer 8 also adds 2hp/lvl.

A dry lich that undergoes the sere rite in a desecrated aura with all the above gains cha+6hp/hd, I believe. There is a caveat in some of the hp granting abilities- only undead created by spells gain the benefit. If the sere rite doesnt involve spells, then you get no benefit.

You can do something similar with necropolitan, but I think RAW only desecration works.

[Grayson01]

3.5 Dracoliches and Draconic Vampires use their CHA to determin Breath Weapon DCs as well.

[Hyde]

I was under the impression that normal undead got +/- 0 to HP per die, while intelligent undead got +CHA. I might have dreamed that, though.

[Zanos]

I was under the impression that normal undead got +/- 0 to HP per die, while intelligent undead got +CHA. I might have dreamed that, though.
In 3.5, only undead with the Unholy Toughness special quality get CHA to hp. It's different in PF.

[TuggyNE]

I was under the impression that normal undead got +/- 0 to HP per die, while intelligent undead got +CHA. I might have dreamed that, though.

In 3.5, the only HP-related difference between mindless and intelligent undead is that mindless undead can't recover HP on their own by resting.

[Rubik]

In 3.5, the only HP-related difference between mindless and intelligent undead is that mindless undead can't recover HP on their own by resting.Also, mindless undead don't get skill points or HD-granted feats.

[LogosDragon]

Also, mindless undead don't get skill points or HD-granted feats.

Thus his words "HP-related".

Thanks for the info, everyone!

[Rubik]

Thus his words "HP-related".

Thanks for the info, everyone!Given the crap feats monster write-ups have, this IS HP-related. Why else do so many monsters gain Toughness and completely waste their feat-slots?

[PersonMan]

Given the crap feats monster write-ups have, this IS HP-related. Why else do so many monsters gain Toughness and completely waste their feat-slots?

As someone who has done this before: because at the end of the day, the Skills and Feats lines are the ones you care about the very least. Everything you want is probably already in the monster, so apart from Tumble and similar this is all just stuff you toss on for completion.

"Ok, after four hours, Gargurrent the Destroyer is almost done! Oh, wait, he has 7 feats left after the ones I picked. Uhhh...Toughness x7!"

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Take Improved Toughness, and you'll get +1hp per HD, without needing a Con score.

[mattie_p]

Oh, that's actually rather interesting. Necropolitian just got that much nicer.

Not really. We've had the discussion many times before (most recently in the RAW thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15820196&postcount=82)). Unfortunately necropolitans do not get future hit dice changed to d12s.

[The Dark Fiddler]

Not really. We've had the discussion many times before (most recently in the RAW thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15820196&postcount=82)). Unfortunately necropolitans do not get future hit dice changed to d12s.

Not what Zanos was referring to. He was commenting on the bit where creatures with no Con are immune to ability damage and drain, even mental.


A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks.

[mattie_p]

Not what Zanos was referring to. He was commenting on the bit where creatures with no Con are immune to ability damage and drain, even mental.

I'm aware of that. However, when you take it (without houseruling otherwise) then a wizard gets a d4 hit die for the future with no modifiers. Squishy.

[georgie_leech]

I'm aware of that. However, when you take it (without houseruling otherwise) then a wizard gets a d4 hit die for the future with no modifiers. Squishy.

Would going Necropolitan shut down Faerie Mysteries Initiate? If not, that solves it pretty easily.

[Story]

Not really. We've had the discussion many times before (most recently in the RAW thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15820196&postcount=82)). Unfortunately necropolitans do not get future hit dice changed to d12s.

Really? Because I've read many debates on the subject and they almost invariable concluded the opposite.

Apart from that one mummy, every single stated undead monster has all d12s. It's pretty clear that they intended undead to have all hd changed to d12. It's not completely conclusive since that Necropolitan Wizard could have just happened to have been recently turned, but it's pretty strong evidence.

[mattie_p]

Really? Because I've read many debates on the subject and they almost invariable concluded the opposite.

Apart from that one mummy, every single stated undead monster has all d12s. It's pretty clear that they intended undead to have all hd changed to d12. It's not completely conclusive since that Necropolitan Wizard could have just happened to have been recently turned, but it's pretty strong evidence.

It lacks some very specific wording found in other templates. I've discussed it numerous (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265274) times (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14310288) and I stand by my conclusion. I understand it is commonly houseruled otherwise, but (in my opinion) that makes the template overpowered.


Would going Necropolitan shut down Faerie Mysteries Initiate? If not, that solves it pretty easily.

I don't have that issue of Dragon, but from what I understand, it is a regional feat. Regional feats are like any other, in that:


A character can’t use a feat if he or she has lost a prerequisite.

Once you become a necropolitan, I don't think you meet the prerequisites any longer.

[Rubik]

I don't have that issue of Dragon, but from what I understand, it is a regional feat. Regional feats are like any other, in that:

Once you become a necropolitan, I don't think you meet the prerequisites any longer.Some ranks in Knowledge: Local can apparently let you qualify, even if you otherwise don't.

[mattie_p]

Some ranks in Knowledge: Local can apparently let you qualify, even if you otherwise don't.

Only if you houserule in the rule from 3.0. That is no longer an option as of the 3.5 update in Players Guide to Faerun.