Classic of the genre...

[Saturosian]

So, I have an observation, and after looking over the other threads, I feel like it doesn't quite fit in the others (apologies to the mods if I overlooked one).

Tarquin, while seemingly unaware of it, has set up a real classic of the genre. The heroes face overwhelming, even ridiculous odds, but they also have a new character (or the same character who unlocked some new skill) that suddenly makes the fight manageable. The audience needs a chance to see the new powers get more than just a test drive, so a real situation that fits those powers naturally occurs. In this case Durkon's new vampire powers are pretty great for dominating enough low-level mooks to keep the fight interesting.

Besides that, Star Wars aside, killing off the good guys like this never works (and even in Star Wars it wasn't quite like this).

What I'm curious about is: do you think this is enough to convince Tarquin that Roy is, if not the hero of his story, at least the hero of some story? When Roy and co. come out of this, you know, alive (which, to me, seems inevitable simply because, you know, plot) will that cue him in on the fact that a few of his notions are off?

My bets are on no, because of his self-centeredness. And yet it seems odd for him to watch the Order walk out of a death pit and not figure out that they have narrative importance, too. Thoughts?

[Chantelune]

Oh, I'm sure Tarquin realizes that Roy and the other are the heroes or part of another story. Just that as long as that story is not centered around him, he don't give a damn. It's obvious he considers that Elan is the only protagonist that matter to him. With maybe Haley as she's romantically involved with him (every james bond need a bond girl, right ?).

The rest of them ? They only matter if they're Elan's underlings. If not, they die. He showed that he respected Roy in regard of his strenght as a fellow warrior and tactical mind, but he'll never tolerate Roy's existence now that Elan made clear that he's Roy's underling.

If the order does get out victorious of this, or at least not dead, he'll probably move in with his own party to finish the job. Might be how Tarquin's arc will be finished. Not killed by Elan, but by Roy or V or maybe even Durkon or Belkar in a desert, after losing his whole army, depriving him of his climatic duel against his own son.

[Klear]

I think Tarquin should be convinced if only Elan told him how many unresolved plot-threads there are, biggest one being that Xykon is pretty much Roy's nemesis.

[Chantelune]

I think Tarquin should be convinced if only Elan told him how many unresolved plot-threads there are, biggest one being that Xykon is pretty much Roy's nemesis.

But would he care ? If those plots are not directly tied to him, I think he might just dismiss it as being unimportant and keep his focus on his own self-centered story. :smallconfused:

[Morty]

The fact that the Order survived the pyramid and its subsequent explosion isn't proof in Tarquin's eyes that they're important. His conclusion is that the story isn't working properly and it's up to him to set it back on the right track.

[King of Nowhere]

My personal take into this is that yes, the heroes will win, and tarquin knows it. But the heroes will likely lose some of theirs along the way. not the main hero, but a supporting character. So, tarquin is trying to promote Elan from supporting character (and thus liable to die) to main hero. Also, by giving elan enough rage against him, he can promote himself from sidequest to main villain (though he seems genuinely unaware that he is not the main villain already).
Therefore, according to narrative conventions, killing the rest of the party will allow both elan and tarquin to improve their position.

[Nightmarenny]

Everyone should remember that while a hero will eventually beat the bad guy not every hero does. Sometimes you're Roy fighting for years to beat your nemesis and save the world and succeeding but sometimes, perhaps most of the time, you're the party that failed to prevent Tarquin's rise to power.

[BroomGuys]

Yeah, I'm guessing Tarquin thinks this will be the "damn you, Tarquin!!!" moment wherein Elan's friends die, forcing him to regroup heroically and overcome Xykon and then Tarquin against all odds.

The crucial detail that he really doesn't know is that we just spent a whole book with Roy dead already (I would know; I just bought DStP :smallbiggrin:). Would the author really kill him off again, at the end of the very next book?

Tarquin knows how stories work, but he doesn't know where this one started. He doesn't know how much dramatic tension has already gone into "how the hell will the Oots beat Team Evil?" He doesn't know how invested the audience is in Roy, and Roy is the one he's specifically trying to kill because he's hogging the spotlight away from Elan. Tarquin's whole continent has only really been in the story in one book; the only reason he's become more of a prominent villain than Nale is because he's so powerful. But the main villain is more powerful, so Tarquin won't usurp his place.

If the Oots manage to defeat Xykon, it would be a huge anticlimax for them to go and beat Tarquin after that, because he's less of a challenge. Tarquin just doesn't have the narrative power or the regular kind of power to be more than a side boss.

There are so many ways he could be proven wrong and die or be defeated and humbled, but he did say "Zyklon." Xykon hates people who get his name wrong.

[Daywalker1983]

My personal take into this is that yes, the heroes will win, and tarquin knows it. But the heroes will likely lose some of theirs along the way. not the main hero, but a supporting character. So, tarquin is trying to promote Elan from supporting character (and thus liable to die) to main hero. Also, by giving elan enough rage against him, he can promote himself from sidequest to main villain (though he seems genuinely unaware that he is not the main villain already).
Therefore, according to narrative conventions, killing the rest of the party will allow both elan and tarquin to improve their position.

Not that I mind your "personal take", but where does it come from? Tarquin outright states his reasons for attacking Roy, and it's entirely consistent with what we know of him. The one you mentioned never seemed to have crossed his mind, and is not backed up by anything Tarquin says or does.

How did draw that conclusion?

[Daywalker1983]

There are so many ways he could be proven wrong and die or be defeated and humbled, but he did say "Zyklon." Xykon hates people who get his name wrong.

Even more befitting: He'd be nipped in the butt by his own folly: Adressing someone as his equal or his lesser when Xykon is clearly superior, therefore angering him in the first place.

[F.Harr]

The fact that the Order survived the pyramid and its subsequent explosion isn't proof in Tarquin's eyes that they're important. His conclusion is that the story isn't working properly and it's up to him to set it back on the right track.

This morning or lat last night, it struck me, if Belkar represents a particular RPG PLAYER, perhaps Tarquin represents a particular RPG DM. One who wrests control of the game from the players whenever they're doing things they don't like regardless of if the players or moving the mission along (and having fun) or not.


Even more befitting: He'd be nipped in the butt by his own folly: Adressing someone as his equal or his lesser when Xykon is clearly superior, therefore angering him in the first place.

That could be amusing. And a way to keep Xykon as the comic villian still a threat.

"Therefore, according to narrative conventions, killing the rest of the party will allow both elan and tarquin to improve their position."

This fits into the idea that Tarquin is a loving father. He's just an EVIL loving father. A nutral or good one would aprentace Elan out, send him to night school, or just let him marry comedy and heroism like some Gilbert and Sulivan operetta (Frederick comes to mind). But an EVIL loving father just kills the distractions and lets Elan get on with it.

[Amphiox]

The thing about how Tarquin sees narrative conventions is that he clearly believes in using his insights to change story details to suit his own purposes. That was really the heart of his "Bard's are underpowered. With their knowledge of narrative conventions they should be ruling the world" statement. Essentially he was criticizing Bards for wasting their time just telling stories, when they could be using their skills to make stories. (Stories naturally to the bard's benefit).

So even if he recognizes that Roy is the hero of some kind of story, what he's really doing is trying to change that story, by force, into Elan's story.

[Taelas]

I don't think he does realize that, though. Since he, Tarquin, is the Main Villain (or so he firmly believes), it makes perfect narrative sense for his fated enemy, the one who will eventually defeat him, to be Elan.

He is thus absolutely convinced Elan is the main character. There's no possibility that it could be Roy, for if that's the case, then Tarquin isn't the main villain, and that's patently absurd.

This is partially why he is so annoyed with Elan at the moment. Since he believes Elan is the main character, he thinks Elan needs to be the leader. Since Elan doesn't seem to realize this, he wants to teach him a lesson.

I can't wait for when Roy rudely disapproves Tarquin of the notion that he is more than an unimpotant side-villain for a single arc; that he is, in fact, nothing more than the antagonist of the personal quest of one of the hero's companions.

[Aasimar]

Is it even conceivable that he's also thinking that they'll need the xp from killing his mooks? (in addition to hopefully getting Elan promoted to main protagonist)

[Douglas]

I think the only way Tarquin would be persuaded to change his approach here is if he were convinced a) that Roy is the primary hero of his own story, b) that Tarquin is a strictly secondary villain in that story, and c) that Roy's story is more major than the Tarquin/Elan story. If he understood and accepted all of those points, I think Tarquin would reason that Roy's narrative importance will trump anything Tarquin could possibly do, and stand down rather than waste resources on a futile effort.

Tarquin knows and accepts points a and b already, but has no clue about point c. Elan's best shot is trying to educate him about that fact, but even if Elan recognizes it (he might, he knows enough of the same genre-awareness stuff that he could figure out Tarquin's reasoning) it would be a difficult argument to make - Tarquin's preconceptions about his own importance are strong, and Elan's identity as his son plays into them by default. I suspect Tarquin will realize his error, but only after Roy forcibly demonstrates it by beating everything Tarquin throws at him, at which point it'll be a bit too late.

[Fearabbit]

There are so many ways he could be proven wrong and die or be defeated and humbled, but he did say "Zyklon." Xykon hates people who get his name wrong.

Your whole post up to this point makes a lot of sense, and I agree. But Xykon hates it when people say that while he's present. How would Xykon and Tarquin ever meet now that Xykon is on another continent and Tarquin has said that he has no interest in pursuing him because a fight between villains tends to end badly (or something to that extent)?

:xykon: "My Xykey sense is tingling! Someone pronounced my name wrong! Teleport!"

Although Xykon killing Tarquin would solve several problems - that way Xykon would definitely be the "final boss", Elan wouldn't have to immortalize Tarquin by heroically defeating him and Tarquin would finally see that he wasn't that important in the bigger picture.

Anyway I'm still very excited about the trick Elan supposedly has up his sleeve. Rich wouldn't mention something like that without using it, I guess, and I have a feeling that everything we're seeing right now is a build-up to that. Tarquin is portrayed as someone who believes he knows everything about the way this narrative will play out, and Elan will somehow do something to prove him wrong - not in a heroic way, but subtle and anticlimactic, because that's all Tarquin deserves.

[LKeaton]

He is thus absolutely convinced Elan is the main character. There's no possibility that it could be Roy, for if that's the case, then Tarquin isn't the main villain, and that's patently absurd.

This is partially why he is so annoyed with Elan at the moment. Since he believes Elan is the main character, he thinks Elan needs to be the leader. Since Elan doesn't seem to realize this, he wants to teach him a lesson.
Someone needs to remind that guy that you don't have to be the leader to be the main character.

There's plenty of great stories where the leader (that doesn't even end up dying) is a supporting character. (Including the obvious.)


If the Oots manage to defeat Xykon, it would be a huge anticlimax for them to go and beat Tarquin after that, because he's less of a challenge. Tarquin just doesn't have the narrative power or the regular kind of power to be more than a side boss.
Well, he could always try to be a sequel villain against Elan, Haley, Ian and a certain airship captain who tragically dies in Elan's arms while he swears revenge. That would give Tarquin everything he wanted.

[Saturosian]

Hoo, boy, I guess this is what I get for drive-by starting a new thread.


The fact that the Order survived the pyramid and its subsequent explosion isn't proof in Tarquin's eyes that they're important. His conclusion is that the story isn't working properly and it's up to him to set it back on the right track.

+1. Does he get disabused of this notion in-story, though? And if so, I wonder if he can still have this realization before it kills him. If he keeps getting in the way of what we know is the main story, I'm pretty sure he will get put in his place, even if it costs his life.


Even more befitting: He'd be nipped in the butt by his own folly: Adressing someone as his equal or his lesser when Xykon is clearly superior, therefore angering him in the first place.

Responding to this and similar things; I would actually love to see Tarquin smoked by Xykon somehow, it would be fitting on so many levels and a satisfying end to Tarquin, but I would just like to throw out there that it's almost certainly not going to happen. Tarquin won't go to Kraagor's gate because he considers that Elan's sidequest before leveling up and defeating him, and Xykon's not coming back to the Western continent because, well, why would he? We don't know of anything important to him there.


I think the only way Tarquin would be persuaded to change his approach here is if he were convinced a) that Roy is the primary hero of his own story, b) that Tarquin is a strictly secondary villain in that story, and c) that Roy's story is more major than the Tarquin/Elan story. If he understood and accepted all of those points, I think Tarquin would reason that Roy's narrative importance will trump anything Tarquin could possibly do, and stand down rather than waste resources on a futile effort.

Tarquin knows and accepts points a and b already, but has no clue about point c. Elan's best shot is trying to educate him about that fact, but even if Elan recognizes it (he might, he knows enough of the same genre-awareness stuff that he could figure out Tarquin's reasoning) it would be a difficult argument to make - Tarquin's preconceptions about his own importance are strong, and Elan's identity as his son plays into them by default. I suspect Tarquin will realize his error, but only after Roy forcibly demonstrates it by beating everything Tarquin throws at him, at which point it'll be a bit too late.

+1 to this as well. Your analysis is right on. I guess what I'm curious about, (and there's no right or wrong answer until the next strips come out, of course) is at what point Tarquin realizes point c). When an entire army of mooks doesn't kill Roy et al.? Will Roy need to put him down, as Szar_Lakol suggests? Will he die or let them leave still unconvinced of point c?

[Saturosian]

Two more things:

1) Every villain, no matter how little, believes he is the main villain. Look at Glass (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Glass) from Fire Emblem (http://emblemfire.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/fire-emblem-e-m3-eng-fre-ger_03.png?w=655). As that image shows, he believes he is scarier than the gods because of his swordplay, and yet he's a third-level, two-bit gang leader in the second chapter of a quest. Tarquin seems genre-savvy enough to be cautious about making that sort of mistake, but he's fallen into it anyway, and I won't be surprised if that's the error that kills him.

2) While I still don't think it's likely, there's a certain appeal to Xykon v Tarquin. They are kind of evil opposites of each other; Xykon too impatient to conquer nations without Redcloak's help, Tarquin practically defined by his patience. Xykon believes in two things, as much power as you can concentrate in one place, and style (but you can let style slide), while Tarquin probably believes the same two things, but would rather let power slide than style. And Xykon would never, ever agree to letting his son kill him to fulfill a narrative requirement, no matter how epic the story, and ironically, he has enough power to stand a better chance of changing the narrative in that way than Tarquin anyway. He "ripped off his living flesh to avoid admitting weakness," for heaven's sake!

If TvX it doesn't happen in comic, there may need to be some fan fiction about this... :smallamused:

[F.Harr]

The thing about how Tarquin sees narrative conventions is that he clearly believes in using his insights to change story details to suit his own purposes. That was really the heart of his "Bard's are underpowered. With their knowledge of narrative conventions they should be ruling the world" statement. Essentially he was criticizing Bards for wasting their time just telling stories, when they could be using their skills to make stories. (Stories naturally to the bard's benefit).

So even if he recognizes that Roy is the hero of some kind of story, what he's really doing is trying to change that story, by force, into Elan's story.

Hence, my thought that he represents some kind of demented DM.


Two more things:

1) Every villain, no matter how little, believes he is the main villain. Look at Glass (http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Glass) from Fire Emblem (http://emblemfire.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/fire-emblem-e-m3-eng-fre-ger_03.png?w=655). As that image shows, he believes he is scarier than the gods because of his swordplay, and yet he's a third-level, two-bit gang leader in the second chapter of a quest. Tarquin seems genre-savvy enough to be cautious about making that sort of mistake, but he's fallen into it anyway, and I won't be surprised if that's the error that kills him.

2) While I still don't think it's likely, there's a certain appeal to Xykon v Tarquin. They are kind of evil opposites of each other; Xykon too impatient to conquer nations without Redcloak's help, Tarquin practically defined by his patience. Xykon believes in two things, as much power as you can concentrate in one place, and style (but you can let style slide), while Tarquin probably believes the same two things, but would rather let power slide than style. And Xykon would never, ever agree to letting his son kill him to fulfill a narrative requirement, no matter how epic the story, and ironically, he has enough power to stand a better chance of changing the narrative in that way than Tarquin anyway. He "ripped off his living flesh to avoid admitting weakness," for heaven's sake!

If TvX it doesn't happen in comic, there may need to be some fan fiction about this... :smallamused:

Huh. Interesting. I wasn't sure Tarquin fit into the "style vs. power" arguement because he seems to like sliding behind things and shoving at the weakest part. But on the other hand, you've got a point. It's in the service of a better story, that is, a better style. Interesting.

[Saturosian]

Huh. Interesting. I wasn't sure Tarquin fit into the "style vs. power" arguement because he seems to like sliding behind things and shoving at the weakest part. But on the other hand, you've got a point. It's in the service of a better story, that is, a better style. Interesting.

:smallsmile: Do you know, I think that's the first compliment I've been paid on these boards? Or one of my ideas, I guess, but still, thanks. I still don't see how Xykon could ever get in a position to realistically fight Tarquin, but like I said, that's what fanfics are for, if it doesn't happen. :smallwink:


Hence, my thought that he represents some kind of demented DM.

Oh, I forgot to respond to this idea. I like your thinking, but instead of a DM, I feel like it's more of, I dunno, almost a meta-gamer, but in reverse? He's trying to get the storyline to fit what he thinks it should be, according to narrative convention instead of "real-world" logic, like a gamer might try to argue with a DM, but he isn't actually a DM. He's still a player, so he is still at the DM's mercy, and if I were getting second-guessed as hard as Tarquin is doing right now, I would be thinking of deliciously ironic ways to give him his due.

(in my extended and confused metaphor, the DM in OOTS-verse is basically plot. :smalltongue:)

[F.Harr]

:smallsmile: Do you know, I think that's the first compliment I've been paid on these boards? Or one of my ideas, I guess, but still, thanks. I still don't see how Xykon could ever get in a position to realistically fight Tarquin, but like I said, that's what fanfics are for, if it doesn't happen. :smallwink:



Oh, I forgot to respond to this idea. I like your thinking, but instead of a DM, I feel like it's more of, I dunno, almost a meta-gamer, but in reverse? He's trying to get the storyline to fit what he thinks it should be, according to narrative convention instead of "real-world" logic, like a gamer might try to argue with a DM, but he isn't actually a DM. He's still a player, so he is still at the DM's mercy, and if I were getting second-guessed as hard as Tarquin is doing right now, I would be thinking of deliciously ironic ways to give him his due.

(in my extended and confused metaphor, the DM in OOTS-verse is basically plot. :smalltongue:)

1. I started a thread about fantasy meetings. You can get some ideas, there, I'm sure.

2. O.K., so he could represent a kind of perminant second-guesser. Like so many on this forum. O.K., I can see that, too.