In what proportions to invest WBL into items?

[Firechanter]

Sorry for the clumsy title; this thread was spawned by the suggestions in the "Alternatives to Animated Shields" thread that one should ditch the investment in AC and spend one's GP in more useful gear.

So, assuming a non- or half-casting Melee combatant, for instance a Crusader or Warblade, which percentage of your wealth would you assign to which item group?

The Big Six

* Weapon
* Armor Class (inc. Deflection and Natural)
* Ability bonuses
* Saves bonuses

Other Important Stuff, such as

* Miss Chances
* Movement enhancers (inc Fly)
* Mind Protection
* Daze/Stun Negation
* Fear Immunity
* Negative Energy Protection
* Freedom of Movement
* Dispel Protection
* Initiative and Extra Actions
...

I've often read that you should invest 50% of your wealth into AC. Personally I find that way too much, and usually go for ~33% at most. What does your experience say?

[Telonius]

Depends on the level. At really low levels, I usually put just about everything into weapons and armor (usually 67/33 weapons to armor, unless I'm playing somebody who's going to want Full Plate), with one MW two-handed weapon and an extra (usually non-masterwork) ranged weapon for emergencies. Magic up my weapon as soon as I can afford it, then a spare silvered weapon, usually a longsword. (Silversheen is for higher levels, when you're only going to have one big-gun weapon; at low levels, 250 gold for a one-shot item isn't worth the price difference, when you can get a weapon Silvered for good at no more than 180gp on top of its normal cost).

[Chronos]

I don't know an exact breakdown, but 50% on AC looks ridiculous to me.

In general, there are only three categories to spend money on: Offense, defense, and utility (this applies to all classes, not just warrior-types). How much to spend on utility vs. the other two depends on the sort of game your group plays, so that's hard to give general advice on. For offense vs. defense, though, you want to look at the relative values of what you're adding. Start by getting all of the cheap things (like the best mundane armor that doesn't interfere with your class features) and the essential things (like, you probably need a weapon). Then, for each additional investment (of money, feats, item slots, or any other limited resource), ask yourself "By how much can I increase my defense using this resource? By how much can I increase my offense?". This will often end up with approximately equal costs invested into defense and offense (at least, in a well-designed game it should), but not always. But note that there are a lot more things that contribute to defense than just AC, so you probably don't want half your wealth in AC.

For instance, my current character has one feat left to assign, and due to a lack of prerequisites, the only realistic options are Improved Critical and Improved Toughness. I calculate that Improved Critical will increase my offense by about 10%, while Improved Toughness will increase my defense by about 15%. Since 15% is greater than 10%, I'm probably going to take Improved Toughness.

[OldTrees1]

The important stuff should be taken by certain levels (say 8th for flight) and should use the cheapest item that does the role well enough. I treat these as reductions to wealth by level before dividing it into proportions.

Then I start with a rough 50% offense, 50% defense.
I consider Defense to be: AC (unless meaningless), Miss Chance & Saves. Bonuses to these may include stat boosters.
I consider Offense to be: Weapon, Primary Stats and other boosters

Then I shift wealth around if there is a way to cheaply increase one side.

[Firechanter]

I don't know an exact breakdown, but 50% on AC looks ridiculous to me.

The conservative AC Progression, barring Defensive Weapon shenanigans, is as follows:

Cost-effective AC enhancements
Item Price
+1 enhancement 1,000 gp
+1 deflection/natural 2,000 gp
+1 deflection/natural 2,000 gp
+2 enhancement 3,000 gp
+2 Dexterity (+1 AC) 4,000 gp
+3 enhancement 5,000 gp
+1 insight (ioun stone) 5,000 gp
+2 deflection/natural 6,000 gp
+2 deflection/natural 6,000 gp
+4 enhancement 7,000 gp
+5 enhancement 9,000 gp
+3 deflection/natural 10,000 gp
+3 deflection/natural 10,000 gp
+4 Dexterity (+2 AC) 12,000 gp
+4 deflection/natural 14,000 gp
+4 deflection/natural 14,000 gp
+5 deflection/natural 18,000 gp
+5 deflection/natural 18,000 gp

Not counting base items, like Mithral Breast- or Fullplate etc.
Maxing out all of this will cost you 146.000GP. That would be about 50% of wealth for a level 16-17 character.

My last level 18 character was at the "+4 Dex" part of this progression, so his total investment into AC enhancements was 82K, plus 8K für Defending Spikes (which alone more than made up for the missing +4/+5 def/nat), so that was just 20% of his total WBL for AC at this point. I don't remember if he had two sets of Defending blades on his body. But he was the bodyguard of an Incantatrix who would chain-GMW all his stuff every other day.

[Chronos]

Sure, but that doesn't mean that you should max out AC all along that entire progression.

Ooh, I never noticed that the AC ioun stone was insight, not deflection. I think I need one of those on the character I'm building now.

[ericp65]

It might be easier to base the maximum price/cost of each item, rather than do some kind of percentage by group. Just follow the rule that a single item's price/cost is no higher than 10% of the character's WBL.

[Firechanter]

Just follow the rule that a single item's price/cost is no higher than 10% of the character's WBL.

That can't possibly be a rule. That way, you could get your first +1 Full Plate and +1 Weapon at level 8, and slap on the first property on your weapon at level 12. There'd be hardly anything you could even have below level 8.

There is some guideline for an upper limit on item value, I just can't find it atm. Afair it was something like 25% or 50% of total wealth. Where a weapon can very quickly bust a 25% limit.

So atm it looks to me like you should split your wealth in even proportions:
1/3 Weapon
1/3 AC
1/3 everything else.

How does that look?

[Greenish]

A third on just AC seems a wee bit high. Then again, I tend to focus on cheap-ish utility items, to the extent of skimping on my main weapon (magic weapons are so expensive).

[PersonMan]

The rule is that you can't spend over 50% of your WBL on a single item. Can be found in the Rules Compendium, IIRC, not sure where else.

[Firechanter]

Yeah, weapon costs rack up enormously. Even though the sensible player wants only +1 Enhancement bonus (provided you have a GMW caster around), there are enough desirable +1 or +2 properties to really drain your coffers. The only reason ever to get a +3 weapon would be to use Greater weapon crystals, and that's probably only ever necessary for Rogues. Or if you don't have a caster maybe.
(Personally, I find the Greater Truedeath and similar way overpriced; I like how PF repealed the necessity for it.)

My aforementioned level 18 character had, at that level, a +5 equivalent weapon with some fixed-cost properties, and also some items that affected only the weapon (like giving it Adamantine and Silver properties), plus various Least and Lesser weapon crystals. All in all maybe 70K for the weapon, which seems awfully low now that I look at it.

So his wealth distribution was something like
<20% Weapon (more like 16%)
20% AC
60% everything else

with multiple properties stacked onto virtually every item, because I wanted to have everything available all the time without having to swap gear first. For instance, the boots were something like Steadfast Boots of Dimensional Striding and Springing, and probably one or two other abilities. So those +50% penalties for multiple properties amounted to something like, I'd guess, about 10% of my total WBL.

[Curmudgeon]

The rule is that you can't spend over 50% of your WBL on a single item. Can be found in the Rules Compendium, IIRC, not sure where else.
Can you cite a page number for that? I don't think Rules Compendium has much to say on creating characters. I only know of this guideline in Dungeon Master's Guide (page 199, in the section on CREATING PCS ABOVE 1ST LEVEL).
Magic Items as Gear
You’re free to limit what magic items characters can choose when they create characters of higher levels, just as if you were assigning those items to treasure hoards in the game. You can exercise an item-by-item veto, but an easier method is to use maximum cost for a single item as a limit. For example, while an 8th-level character has 27,000 gp to spend, you can limit him to owning no single item worth more than one-quarter of that, or 5,500 gp. This is a good way to prevent imbalances such as an 8th-level fighter with hardly a copper piece to his name who is armed with a nine lives stealer. As far as I know the limit's up to each individual DM. For the higher-powered games I run I allow up to 50% of WbL on items, and up to 100% on one-time expenses (spellcasting services, training fees, & c.), but that's just me.

[Greenish]

Yeah, weapon costs rack up enormously. Even though the sensible player wants only +1 Enhancement bonus (provided you have a GMW caster around)I'm not sure I'd go over +1 straight enhancement in most cases even without a GMW caster (or that tooth from ToM) at hand (or mouth). It's just so boring, even if the hit bonus is nice.

In PF, probably, being able pierce all sorts of DR is pretty cool, but in 3.5, not likely.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Does using GMW (via casting or tooth of Leraje) allows you to put Greater Crystals?

[Greenish]

Does using GMW (via casting or tooth of Leraje) allows you to put Greater Crystals?It should by RAW, I think. Whether any given DM agrees is another matter.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm not sure I'd go over +1 straight enhancement in most cases even without a GMW caster (or that tooth from ToM) at hand (or mouth). It's just so boring, even if the hit bonus is nice.
I know you said "in most cases", but as a lover of Rogues, I rarely buy anything but straight numerical enhancement bonuses for weapons. The downside to not hitting (no sneak attack damage) is just too great. And I want to be fully functional when going up against enemy spellcasters who start with debuffing attacks. Going up against an Undead spellcaster and finding that your Greater Truedeath weapon augment crystal is completely inert because it's no longer attached to an item with a +3 enhancement bonus is seriously inconvenient.

[Tvtyrant]

Can you cite a page number for that? I don't think Rules Compendium has much to say on creating characters. I only know of this guideline in Dungeon Master's Guide (page 199, in the section on CREATING PCS ABOVE 1ST LEVEL). As far as I know the limit's up to each individual DM. For the higher-powered games I run I allow up to 50% of WbL on items, and up to 100% on one-time expenses (spellcasting services, training fees, & c.), but that's just me.

I agree with you. I have a level 5 party member in my current group with the entire Array of the Manticore, because the party decided it was better to keep the array together than to use them individually/sell off the bits. This is a lot higher than individual WBL, but would have been acceptable if it had been split up amongst the group.