Help with Chinese names

[danzibr]

After reading the wikipedia article on Chinese names I learned a bit, but have a few questions. I already knew some of this, and other stuff was just reaffirmed. So I know, just like Japan, it's surname then given name, and middle names are virtually nonexistent.

One thing I didn't read is how to address people based on familiarity. Suppose someone's family name is X and given name is Y. If you don't know them would you address them as X Y? Or would there be some honorific to use? If the two of you are buddies would you just use their family name? Or just their given name?

I met a guy once (probably 12 or so years ago by now, and online) who introduced himself as Wong Kam Tai. At the time I, being very ignorant, thought Wong was his first name, Kam was his middle name, and Tai was his last name. But now it seems Wong would be his surname and Kamtai (I guess he wrote it with a space because it's two characters) was his given name.

[Xuc Xac]

To use your example of Wong Kam Tai, you would call him the equivalent of "Mr. Wong". If he has a more specific title, then you would use that: Doctor Wong, Lawyer Wong, Manager Wong, etc. (In Chinese, the title comes after the name.)

If you got to know him better, you'd use his full name: "Hey, Wong Kam Tai, let's go have lunch". If you were close friends, you could call him "Old Wong" or "Little Wong" depending on his age relative to yours. You can see that in the new "Karate Kid" movie with Jackie Chan and Jayden Smith: they call each other Mr. Han and Shiao (young) Dre.

If you are very close to him, you could use a nickname. Sometimes nicknames are obvious traits like "chubby" or "4 eyes", but they can also be rather dull things like the weird nicknames you see in old kung fu movies: "5th younger brother", "oldest sister", and the like.

In English, just ask him what he wants to be called.

[danzibr]

Interesting, interesting. Thank you.

So when (if ever) do you address someone using their given name without their family name?

[theangelJean]

Interesting, interesting. Thank you.

So when (if ever) do you address someone using their given name without their family name?

Mostly if you're family. Another situation is if you're friends but you (the person doing the addressing) are in a much more senior position - I have friends who are my grandmother's age, and they will sometimes call me by my given name.

Also, as well as the formal "Mr/Dr/Lawyer/Manager" titles listed in the previous post (I'll add "Teacher"), there are some informal ones you use for friends/family friends, such as one that is the equivalent of "Aunt/Mrs" (even if they aren't really related; indeed, if they are actually your family the terms are all gender- and relationship-specific).

This all assumes you are addressing them in Chinese. If you are addressing them in English, like the reply above says, ask what they want to be called.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by theangelJean
...there are some informal ones you use for friends/family friends, such as one that is the equivalent of "Aunt/Mrs"....

Also, some of these terms are very dependent on context, so the same word can be used appropriately by one person, but not by the next.

I learned this the hard way when I visited some colleagues at a museum in Taiwan. My old college roommate, who had moved to Taiwan, was there to help translate for me, along with his wife and two-year-old daughter.

At one point, when one of my colleagues was showing us around the museum, my friend's daughter said to her, "Xie-xie ai!" Not knowing anything about Chinese, I somehow jumped to the conclusion that "ai" was a modifier that meant "very much."

So, at the end of the tour, when my colleagues and my friends were all standing together, I said, "Xie-xie ai!" and everyone burst out laughing.

As my friend explained it, "ai" is an endearment, and when his daughter said "ai" it had the sense of "auntie," which was fine for a young child to address to a woman. When a grown man says it to a woman, however, the meaning is apparently different. :smallredface:

Fortunately everyone understood how and why I'd made the mistake, so there weren't any misunderstandings. Still deeply embarrassing.

[Brother Oni]

To expand on the informal family terms and how the context matters:

Families tend to be very extended, so you have different terms for paternal grandfather compared to materal grandfather as well as different terms for an paternal/maternal uncle or aunt and whether they're older or younger than your relevant parent.

In addition, if they married into your family, there'd be a different term again (eg. paternal older uncle's wife or elder sister's husband).

It's all based from the source person so an uncle would have one title from his younger brother's nephews, while his older sister's nephews would call him something different.

Here's a nice diagram showing it all (http://www.kwanfamily.info/culture/familytitles_diagram.php). :smalltongue:

The '5th Younger Brother' style titles often stem from Chinese culture in that tight knit groups often become an informal family of sorts, and because of the large extended families, you can have multiple family members of a 'type', so you have 'First (eldest) paternal younger uncle', 'Second (eldest) paternal younger uncle', etc, to be able to distinguish them apart.

As an extension to this latter point, it's often an informal mark of respect to refer to people as an older (but not too old) relative - Palanan's friend's daughter was calling his collegue 'elder sister' as calling her 'auntie' could be construed as an unintentionally backhanded way of saying she's old ('jie jie' is also a complimentary way of saying the colleague is young looking enough to be her sister).

In my experience, a fair chunk of family gatherings are taken up with people discussing how child A is related to person B and the correct term of address.


So I know, just like Japan, it's surname then given name, and middle names are virtually nonexistent.

For mainland Chinese, this is true. With Hong Kong Chinese, it gets complicated.
Since we were under British rule for a while, a style developed where children were given an English name (or adopted one when they were older), to give the English folk a pronoucable name. :smalltongue:

It's still done these days - modern examples would be Lee Jun Fan (Bruce Lee) or Chan Kong Sang (Jackie Chan). Some incorporate their Chinese name into their English one as a sort of 'middle name', eg Kelly Kin Lei Tung.

Typically when such people have an English name, they're westernised enough so that you can just refer to them in an english fashion.

With regard to pure Chinese middle names (spoilered for off topic):

While technically correct in that middle names are not common in Chinese (Japanese names are different), often all children to a set of parents will have a 'generational' name, so you might find a set of brothers and sisters with similar names, eg Kar Wai, Kar Sing, Kar Ming.

A two part given name may also be given simply for its aesthetic sound, look of the characters or meaning.



So when (if ever) do you address someone using their given name without their family name?

Further to previous answers, an older generational relative may refer to you by your given name (or a nickname), but it's impolite for you to refer to them by their nickname or given name, due to the Chinese cultural custom of respect towards elders.

For example, a person has a nickname, which is often used by their friends and family of their generation, but it's impolite for anybody of a younger generation (ie their nephews and nieces and other people of the same approximate age) to use it.

This can also apply to immediate family members, for example the eldest son can refer to his younger siblings by their relationship title or their given names, but his younger siblings should refer to him by his relationship title (although they all typically devolve into nicknames past a certain age).

Edit: Gah, wall of text fixing.

[danzibr]

Thanks for the insightful responses all!

And... that diagram is mind-blowing. I recall once you can tell a lot about a culture by the language. For example, in materialistic America we have so much vernacular for money. Maybe traditional Chinese culture values kinship much more than we.

[The_Admiral]

Well, the general rule my parents give me for addressing their friends is If Married call auntie or uncle if not call older sister or brother. I will not attempt to Romanize Mandarin so just giving a translation.

Also for your friend, I generally call my friends by their last two names, or their english names. So, Phang Yi Kai gets called Yi Kai. Only reason I'm romanizing that is because it's already been done for their IC's

[Brother Oni]

Maybe traditional Chinese culture values kinship much more than we.

One word: Confucianism.

I believe board rules class it as a religion (I disagree), so I can't go into it in any more detail.