[3.5]Maximizing a Ray. Instant Hit?

[Phylion]

Okay. Here is the scenario. I am a Wizard casting a maximized Scorching Ray. As per Maximize, all variable, numeric parts of the spell are maximized, so if I hit I know that I deal tons of damage, but, the question is whether or not my attack roll is affected. I had a debate with my DM over this, and I am looking for some outside input. I argued that since the spell states that you have to make a ranged touch attack, which is basically saying "You must make a (1d20+BAB+Dex Mod) against their touch AC." My question is whether or not I maximize my attack roll to 20 and therefore instantly hit, as rolling a 20 is an instant hit with an attack.
While you ponder this, as a side note, when I talked to my DM about this he didn't even disagree about the maximizing the roll part, he just argued that it wouldn't automatically hit because I did not physically, as a player, roll a 20.

[Andry]

you need to still roll to hit.

[Khatoblepas]

The attack roll isn't a variable, numerical part of the spell. It's just an attack roll.


You blast your enemies with fiery rays. You may fire one ray, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 3rd (to a maximum of three rays at 11th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage.

Bolded are the variable, numerical parts of the spell. Making a "ranged touch attack" is not a part of the spell maximise can touch. If it said "You roll 1d20+BAB+Dex mod and if the result is above your opponent's AC, you deal 4d6 damage" then by Stupid RAW you might munchkin your way into doing it, but as written it is not a part of the spell Maximise can touch, since no dice are expressed in that clause.

[Khedrac]

The attack roll is not a part of the spell - it is the method of determining if the spell hits your chosen target. The spell is just the ray, hence concealment and similar effects can still cause you to miss.
The same applies, for example, to shooting a scorching ray at an incorporeal target - maximise has no effect on the 50% chance for th target not to be there.

If you really really want to be picky the spell creates a ray and the ray will be at it's largest size - so its "maximum effect" if it finds the line where it can travel the furthest before striking something (yes I know this should be enlarge or widen) but if you really want maximise to alter the attack roll and I was DMing I would rule it made the ray miss so you get more ray...

[VariSami]

A bit of applied insane troll logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic) there, I applaud you.

However, I would say that the best reason as to why the spell does not have an automatic 20 to hit is that actually hitting is not a part of the spell effect. The spell is the thing you must hit with. Being a touch or ranged touch is an attribute that applies general rules outside of modifications to the spell unless they specifically apply to spell type/area. Of course, this is hardly RAW since I am merely applying common sense and not a quote. Then again, rule 0 lets common sense override RAW at GM discretion.

[Douglas]

The attack roll is not a part of the spell's effect and is therefore not affected by Maximize. Further, the actual effect of the roll is "hit" or "miss" - the roll is only used to determine which of those occurs - which is not numeric and therefore would not be affected by Maximize even if it were part of the spell.

[TroubleBrewing]

A bit of applied insane troll logic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InsaneTrollLogic) there, I applaud you.


Gah! Put some warning flags around that! I've been stuck there for a half an hour!

[Segev]

Note that, if Maximize affected the attack roll, it would also affect the saving throw. Do you really want Maximize to cause saves to be auto-20s?

[molten_dragon]

Okay. Here is the scenario. I am a Wizard casting a maximized Scorching Ray. As per Maximize, all variable, numeric parts of the spell are maximized, so if I hit I know that I deal tons of damage, but, the question is whether or not my attack roll is affected. I had a debate with my DM over this, and I am looking for some outside input. I argued that since the spell states that you have to make a ranged touch attack, which is basically saying "You must make a (1d20+BAB+Dex Mod) against their touch AC." My question is whether or not I maximize my attack roll to 20 and therefore instantly hit, as rolling a 20 is an instant hit with an attack.
While you ponder this, as a side note, when I talked to my DM about this he didn't even disagree about the maximizing the roll part, he just argued that it wouldn't automatically hit because I did not physically, as a player, roll a 20.

I'd say that's on shaky ground via RAW, and certainly not RAI. As a DM, I wouldn't let a player get away with that.

[TuggyNE]

I'd say that's on shaky ground via RAW, and certainly not RAI. As a DM, I wouldn't let a player get away with that.

It's not on shaky ground RAWwise, it's just flat-out wrong.