Clockwork Spirit Vessel [creature, 3.5 PEACH]

[Andion Isurand]

Clockwork Spirit Vessel (http://magerune.blogspot.com/2013/08/clockwork-auto-vessel.html)

The link above points to the creature's entry in my blog.

[Debihuman]

Neat. It probably can't walk on three legs when kicking (wouldn't it be terribly off balanced on 3 legs?). I recommend reducing kicks to two legs to leave 4 legs for walking.

It shouldn't be able to fly with more than a light load rather than a heavy load. See flying rules.

I hate the stat block. The standard stat block makes it a lot easier to critique.

How does it fly? Is it a natural ability or supernatural ability? It should be noted as Flight (Ex) as it appears to be a mechanical ability but you really need to state that explicitly. In addition, the balloon for lift needs its own section. Can the balloon be sundered or destroyed? What affect on flight does that have on speed and/or maneuverability?

How does it throw thing? I didn't see any arm-like appendages. Throwing things usually precludes iterative attacks (how does it throw something at +62 and then again at +57?) If this is a supernatural ability it needs to be defined better. How many items can it throw at once?

Does it have cannons aboard? If not, can they be added?

Debby

[Andion Isurand]

there, reduced it to having two kicks, but also added the rapidstrike feats

plus, I further explained the thrown objects ability, stating that the iterative attacks were limited by the number of objects within reach

the sails and balloon thing are just objects, and not part of the creature, and they can be sundered

actual cannons, while interesting, would require ammo and powder, and would suffer from being fixed to the vessel

now, magical energy cannons or energy arrow ballista on swivels might be nice, if they were part of the creature itself, but so far Ive decided not to use them

[Debihuman]

there, reduced it to having two kicks, but also added the rapidstrike feats that's fine.


plus, I further explained the thrown objects ability, stating that the iterative attacks were limited by the number of objects within reach

Which makes no sense whatsoever. You use an appendage to throw things. So what does it use. If you throw a ball, you can't throw it again as it has left your hand and isn't there to throw again. You cannot use iterative attacks to throw things. It's goofy. It can make as many throws as it has "hands." So my question again is: How does it throw things and how many appendages does it have? If it is ghostly ability like telekinesis then describe it properly. If it has powerful telekinesis, it can throw as many items as are in reach but it cannot throw an item, pick it up, and throw it again in the same round.


the sails and balloon thing are just objects, and not part of the creature, and they can be sundered

Then how many hit points do they have and what effect does sundering them have? Does it reduce maneuverability and speed?



actual cannons, while interesting, would require ammo and powder, and would suffer from being fixed to the vessel

So? Lots of ships have fixed cannons. How hard is it to buy and carry aboard ammo and powder?


now, magical energy cannons or energy arrow ballista on swivels might be nice, if they were part of the creature itself, but so far Ive decided not to use them

Fair enough. I think if you are able to gain control of one of these, you are likely able to make your own magical cannons and other ballista.

It has a LOT of bonus feats. Since it has no class or templates that would grant it bonus feats, it has too many bonus feats. If you need to give it more than 2 bonus feats, it probably doesn't have enough HD or other abilities.

Here are feats it doesn't need: Ancestral Knowledge, Far Shot, Fling Ally, Improved Natural Weapon (kick), Improved Natural Weapon (slam), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Knowledge Devotion, Master of Knowledge, Quick Draw, Quick Reconnoiter, Run, Stamp, Superior-Two Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, Zen Archery

It's big enough that Far Shot isn't likely to be needed, Fling enemy is far more useful than fling ally. It isn't using manufactured weapons so feats for those are unnecessary.

Debby

[Andion Isurand]

I'm pretty sure a creature with Quick Draw feat can make iterative attacks with a number of thrown weapons, assuming it has enough of them at hand.

The grasping legs are the appendages used to throw. Thrown objects act as improvised weapons, and can thus be subjected to TWF mechanics.

As for all the feats, that's the result of having been imbued with the ancestral knowledge and spirit of countless warriors... i.e. heroics and legend lore being two of the requisite spells.

[Debihuman]

I'm pretty sure a creature with Quick Draw feat can make iterative attacks with a number of thrown weapons, assuming it has enough of them at hand.

The grasping legs are the appendages used to throw. Thrown objects act as improvised weapons, and can thus be subjected to TWF mechanics.

As for all the feats, that's the result of having been imbued with the ancestral knowledge and spirit of countless warriors... i.e. heroics and legend lore being two of the requisite spells.

It doesn't have "grasping legs" listed. It uses legs to kick and walk. It needs some other appendage to use for throwing things. That's how "natural attacks" work. Quick Draw doesn't work with natural weapons only manufactured weapons which this does not have.

What this needs is a picture so you can see what it can do and what it can't. I get the impression that you hadn't thought it out as well as you could have.

Um can you please cite to books you use for feats because I can't even figure out where you went off track. I'm not sure Constructs qualify for Ancestral Knowledge feat. What clan does this have? Technically the CREATOR of one of these should have the Ancestral Knowledge feat and should have to imbue it with the spirits of warriors (how you need this in the text but not require it in the construction is a huge disconnect).

Debby

[Andion Isurand]

well, I took out the two-weapon fighting feats...
and the kick attacks...
and stuck with 2 slams and unarmed strikes for the melee attacks

I want the legs to be used interchangeably, and not have any of them specifically designated as an arm or a leg, and have any one of them capable of grabbing and throwing things.

[Debihuman]

well, I took out the two-weapon fighting feats...
and the kick attacks...
and stuck with 2 slams and unarmed strikes for the melee attacks

I want the legs to be used interchangeably, and not have any of them specifically designated as an arm or a leg, and have any one of them capable of grabbing and throwing things.

Okay, here's the deal with the legs. You simply failed to give this thing enough legs to do everything you want with it. Furthermore, the legs are underneath the vessel making it hard to throw things above the water line.

Grasping oars make more sense than grasping legs. Think of the paddles as hands that paddle the vessel when the hands are in paddle shape and can open and close to be used to throw things. They have to be retractable to be able to be used inside the ship. This also helps to propel the vessel when there isn't any wind for the sails.

For example (and do not feel you have to use this but this is the sort of thing that I am trying to explain)

A vessel this size can easily support 10 paddles per side.

Grasping Paddles (Su): A clockwork spirit vessel is equipped with 20 paddles (10 on each side) made of darkwork that help propel it when there is no breeze for the sails. Each paddle is retractable and can be pulled inside the vessel when not in use. A paddle can be retracted or extended as a move action. Furthermore, each paddle can make a slam attack or throw objects. The large blades of the paddles open and close like a hand and can pick up and throw items both outside the vessel and inside it as well (See chart for how far an item can be thrown). The paddles are made of darkwood and have a hardness of 5. Each paddle is 3 inches thick and has 30 hit points. Breaking a paddle has no effect on the main part of the ship. Paddles that are broken reform in 24 hours unless the ship is destroyed.

Here is how attacks work: Slam is a melee attack is BAB + Str modifier + Creature's size modifier (since it has multiattack and improved multiattack feats, its secondary attacks take no penalty. Throwing objects is a ranged attack BAB + Dex Modifier + Creature's size modifier (amount of damage is based on size of item thrown. See chart.). Note that throwing an item is a ranged attack but items that are thrown are not necessarily "ranged weapons." Since you created a chart for thrown objects, I'll defer to that.

Let's assume the slams and throwing things are both primary attacks and that the kicks are secondary.

Melee BAB +45, Str + 25, size - 8 = 62
Ranged BAB +45, Dex -1, size -8 = 36

Full attacks use full Str on damage and secondary attacks (kicks) use 1/2 damage. An unarmed attack would only cause damage based on a collosal's creatures damage 2d6 (not sure how you figured it would be any higher). Unarmed strikes stink for bigger creatures.

Attack: Slam + 62 melee (8d8+25/19-20) or Thrown item + 36 ranged (damage and distance varies see chart)

Full Attack: 20 slams +62 melee (8d8 +25/19-20) plus 1 slam at +57 melee (8d8+25/19-20) plus 1 slam +52 melee (8d8+25/19-20) plus 1 slam + 47 melee (8d8+25/19-20)* 2 kicks +62 melee (12d6+12) or 20 thrown items +36 ranged (damage and distance varies see chart) and 2 kicks +62 melee (12d6+12) or unarmed strike +62 melee (2d6+25/19-20)
* See rapidstrike feat and improved rapidstrike feats.

More on feats now.

As I said earlier your massive list of bonus feats is far too long for CR 26. You need to widdle this down.

As I previously mentioned there are feats that are wasted on this creature. Improved Natural Weapon feats are wasted on this creature. They aren't needed and don't add anything. These feats are mostly used on Animals so that their attacks can't be improved when they gain a size.

I also recommend losing the following feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot and Rapid Shot since it doesn't use a "ranged weapon." A thrown object is a ranged attack but it is not a "ranged weapon." Those feats are completely wasted on this creature.

The throw anything feat is wasted since it can throw things already as per grasping oars. No need to duplicate this.

Since it doesn't use manufactured weapons, Quick Draw is wasted. It can already throw things at its full BAB as those are natural weapons so that part isn't particularly useful. If you want to keep it so it can retract and extend its paddles as swift action instead of a move action that's fine but hardly worth a bonus feat.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to go through all your bonus feats but you should.

I can't speak to Tome of Battle Material since I don't use it. It does strike me that having have 30 level Initiator abilities might be a tad overkill but I'd prefer someone more proficient in that area address that.

Debby

[Andion Isurand]

Full attacks use full Str on damage and secondary attacks (kicks) use 1/2 damage. An unarmed attack would only cause damage based on a collosal's creatures damage 2d6 (not sure how you figured it would be any higher). Unarmed strikes stink for bigger creatures.

Debby

Superior Unarmed Strike = raises unarmed damage based on level, up to 2d6 for medium creature, so that's -->3d6 -->4d6 -->6d6 -->8d6 for Colossal.
Add in Improved Natural Weapon (unarmed)... damage goes to 12d6

Then add Beast Strike, which adds the base damage from your slam or claw to your unarmed strike damage.
Add in Improved Natural Weapon (slam) for an 8d8 slam.

Then add in Hammer Fist to add 1 + 1/2 times strength to your unarmed attacks.

That's how you get 12d6+8d8+37 for the unarmed strike damage.





Melee BAB +45, Str + 25, size - 8 = 62
Ranged BAB +45, Dex -1, size -8 = 36

Attack: Slam + 62 melee (8d8+25/19-20) or Thrown item + 36 ranged (damage and distance varies see chart)

Debby

Brutal Throw feat allows a creature to add strength to attack rolls with thrown weapons, instead of dexterity.

[Debihuman]

Superior Unarmed Strike = raises unarmed damage based on level, up to 2d6 for medium creature, so that's -->3d6 -->4d6 -->6d6 -->8d6 for Colossal.
Add in Improved Natural Weapon (unarmed)... damage goes to 12d6

Then add Beast Strike, which adds the base damage from your slam or claw to your unarmed strike damage.
Add in Improved Natural Weapon (slam) for an 8d8 slam.

Then add in Hammer Fist to add 1 + 1/2 times strength to your unarmed attacks.

That's how you get 12d6+8d8+37 for the unarmed strike damage.

Brutal Throw feat allows a creature to add strength to attack rolls with thrown weapons, instead of dexterity.

It doesn't have any thrown weapons so why does it have the feat for it?

How does hammer fist feat work with snap kick?

Okay, I just don't really understand why you gave it unarmed strikes instead of something like oars in the first place. Almost no creatures have unarmed strikes (unless they also have levels in monk).

Now I'm utterly confused by the attack lines.

Melee: Unarmed strike +62 (12d6+8d8+37/19-20) OR unarmed strike +60 (12d6+8d8+37/19-20) and unarmed strike +60 (12d6+8d8+13/19-20), or Slam +62 (8d8+25/19-20)

Full attack line is totally messed up since it gets 1 additional attack as a bonus at +57, another at +52 and its last at +47.

Unarmed strikes and slams do not get iterative attacks even when they gain additional attacks. This is because they only get ONE additional attack at a lesser melee attack. I'm not even sure how to fix your full attack line because of the feats you name. Not all bonuses from feats stack either and I'm too lazy to go through all these feats to check to see what stacks and what doesn't.

BTW, this is exactly why I don't normally critique epic creatures. They're too complicated and often use non-core rules.

My first question for you is why does this creature have the feats for 273 HD with only 60 HD? I know you said this:


As for all the feats, that's the result of having been imbued with the ancestral knowledge and spirit of countless warriors... i.e. heroics and legend lore being two of the requisite spells.

Ancesetral knowledge doesn't give you more feats. It just allows you to make knowledge checks untrained even if the DC is higher than 10.

Heroics gives it temporary feats (apparently you made them permanent) so that should give it 60 bonus feats (since in construction it takes 60 warriors to make this). You should note that somewhere.

"The heroics spell temporarily grants the subject a feat from the fighter’s bonus feat list. For the duration of the heroics spell, the subject can use the feat as if it were one of those the creature had selected. All prerequisites for the feat must be met by the target of this spell." That explains a few of the bonus feats. Emphasis mine.

How does legend lore grant bonus feats? If anything, it would grant only Knowledge feats.

BTW it's not "countless" warriors, it's the blood of 60 warriors as stated in Construction. I'll even go so far as to grant you 60 bonus feats from the warriors being imbued but you should state that each warrior has to donate a feat to the clockwork spirit vessel. That still leaves feats unaccounted for.

Debby

[Andion Isurand]

"How does hammer fist feat work with snap kick? "

I just figured the Hammer Fist wouldn't modify the extra snap kick attack.

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well, a lot of the feats, work together, to replace what otherwise would be listed as racial features... its just the feats work better for portability and stat block length

such as the rock hurling and fling line of feats
many of the monstrous feats
or the saving throw feats
and the far shot feat... where i could instead just double the ranges listed in the thrown objects table

and thankfully, a good number of the feats just give the creature additional options on what to do with its available actions

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as far as thrown objects go, although they are improvised weapons, they are still weapons, and should benefit from feats that normally benefit the use of weapons... imo

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as far as the spells being used to create it... its more for thematic purposes, to replicate where the martial knowledge was coming from in addition to the blood

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as far a the CR goes, I wanted the creature to possess a physical advantage over a typical great gold wyrm, enough to compensate for a lack of true spellcasting capability... you think I should bump this vessel to CR 27?

[Debihuman]

I have no idea how to figure out the CR for this.

Debby

[The Mentalist]

well, a lot of the feats, work together, to replace what otherwise would be listed as racial features... its just the feats work better for portability and stat block length


Yes, but it makes the creature unwieldy in a fight, I as a DM don't have time to look up its 50 or so bonus feats and figure out what they do where if they were written nicely in a stat-block it would work much better. The thing has too many feats and while this gives it options we will come to that in a minute.



such as the rock hurling and fling line of feats
many of the monstrous feats
or the saving throw feats
and the far shot feat... where i could instead just double the ranges listed in the thrown objects table

It doesn't need these things, I get the effect that you're trying to go for but this is like using a baseball bat as a flyswatter, it's heavy handed and doesn't work.




and thankfully, a good number of the feats just give the creature additional options on what to do with its available actions


More things it doesn't need, this thing has a full (for its CR) initiator level, that is options. Its base feats can be more options. Having a dozen things you can do with your standard action just makes a monster unplayable, especially when these things are scattered throughout sourcebooks that my failing memory is going to have to look up or not use (that would be slightly improved by referencing what books they're from but they still need to go). It has too many options and due to too many feats, cut the number down and write them into the stat-block as abilities, if this makes the stat-block unwieldy you've given it too many things to do.

As an example of where you can cut dead-weight from the stat-block go with the Pipe Organ. It doesn't need to be referenced in the combat stats of a monster.