Optimizing a Mundane Garrison

[Humble Master]

You are the newly appointed lord of Grimreach and it is up to you to use what resources you have to keep yourself from getting murdered by attackers. Here is what you have:
A small castle. Stone walls, arrow slits, a drawbridge but nothing too fancy.
Money to spend on supplies. Around 25,000 GP
100 1st level Warriors. Straight 10s for abilities but a few 13s in Str, Dex and/or Con sprinkled about. The warriors start out with nothing but clubs.
50 1st level Experts.

Also, you are paranoid about magic, and won't use it at all. Not even alchemical substances. Assume that you will be attacked by things that do use magic (though not very high level magic).

So. How will you use these meager resources to make an impenetrable defense out of your little castle?

[tyckspoon]

Get ranged weapons for all your dudes (Slings are free and their ammo is cheap, or also free if you accept the downsides of using random rocks instead of bullets.) Get a stock of Heavy Crossbows if you expect to have to deal with something that requires heavier firepower, or to switch to once the enemy closes to a range where you can more reliably hit with them (have some Experts or other people who would otherwise be non-combatants standing by to take and reload the emptied Heavy bows so the Warriors don't have to waste turns reloading them themselves.) Never engage in melee with anybody if you can help it. Clear a killzone/detection zone around the castle out to at least a thousand feet or so, so that there is no cover for approaching enemies to use for defense or to hide in.

Make sure your own castle offers adequate cover for your men - spend your money to upgrade your walls so they have good firepoints and cover opportunities all the way around if you have to.

Basically, you want to make it so anybody who even thinks about coming after you gets pumped so full of sling bullets and/or crossbow bolts that they fall over halfway into trying to march on your castle. I don't think there's any low-level magic (low-level being.. what, level 1 and 2 spells at top?) that poses a serious risk to a castle.

It gets harder if you have to patrol your holdings with your men as well, because that raises the risk of getting attacked at close quarters by something before you can shoot it down. Have your Experts train in Handle Animal and buy/raise a lot of guard dogs, war-trained horses, and similar standard pets - even a basic Dog is a match for your Warriors in melee combat, a Riding Dog is significantly tougher, and both are much more expendable than your men because they can't contribute to the rain of arrows you're going to use to deal with serious problems.

[Piggy Knowles]

Long open approach to your garrison + difficult terrain + a whole boatload of crossbow archers filling you with holes all along the way. It's a pretty nasty combo that stays effective even against PCs for a surprisingly long time (or at least until the whole party gets flight).

To prevent counter ranged attacks, try this:

Have the archers fire from behind a wall two or three feet high. They fire as a standard action, then as a free action they drop prone. Next round they spend a move action standing, fire as a standard action, and drop prone again. They should have total cover for all counter-attacks, but take no real disadvantage (as they couldn't make multiple attacks with a full-attack action anyhow).

Have the melee guys mostly work reloading the crossbows of the archers, with clubs on hand to attack if needed.

As tyckspoon mentioned, guard dogs are a decent investment for melee attacking when necessary.

On the wall of two or three feet high, have mock crenellations - stones that appear to be connected, but are not. If people attempt to climb the tower or approach its base, you can push those stones down on your enemies. Similarly, burning oil or pitch is a classic counter-invader tactic for a reason.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Plant experts in nearby towns who specialize in antiques, archaeology, and local history/lore. Plant more experts and warriors who pose as adventurers, bringing charred bits of ancient weapons and armor of some foreign make to the above antique experts, who determine unanimously and independently that these are the remains of several ancient invasions that were laid to waste by a powerful magical ward on the castle they were trying to capture. There were never any survivors and the owner of the castle always tried to cover it up so invaders wouldn't try to find a way to bypass the ward. The castle was eventually razed using an object attuned to bypass the ward, but the warding magic on the location was never destroyed. Be specific about what the item is, possibly a horn which while being blown will disarm the warding magic.

Spread a rumor about how your castle is built on a ruin of an ancient castle that was protected by a powerful magical ward.

Find a cave and create a small dungeon, fill it with simple mechanical traps that automatically reset, plus tons of green slime and yellow mold so the hazards are all self-sustaining yet fairly dangerous. Make it all look very old, bonus points if you actually find an old tomb to use for this. At the end place a stone chest, unlocked, but empty except for a message chiseled on the interior. The above experts on local lore will all confirm that this is the resting place of the item that was used to bypass the ward on the castle. The message chiseled on the inside of the chest should be cryptic, but appear to be personally addressed to whomever discovers it. It should contain something about the writer having taken the item so the readers will not bring doom on themselves through misuse, and something about teaching the reader how to use the item properly via a dream before turning it over to them. It should contain instructions to go to a specific inn and rent a specific room (the Lord's Suite, for example) and a promise that the next morning they'll wake to find they have both the item and the knowledge to use it.

Open an inn by the above name in a nearby town, that room is always reserved for yourself (you have never stayed there and never will) so it's extortionately expensive for anyone to stay there as they must break the reservation. There happens to be an identical room for a reasonable price, and it's in a small town that's out of the way anyway. The room has lavish furnishings and a spectacular view, anyone staying there is served the best food and drink all laced with some sort of sleeping agent made from poppies. Anyone who stays in that room gets assassinated during the night, no exceptions. It shouldn't take more than a dozen experts and half as many warriors dedicated to accomplishing all of this.

Equip your remaining guards as fairly standard for a garrison, to be able to fight off ill-informed attackers such as orcs and goblins.

[Astral Avenger]

Plant experts in nearby towns who specialize in antiques, archaeology, and local history/lore. Plant more experts and warriors who pose as adventurers, bringing charred bits of ancient weapons and armor of some foreign make to the above antique experts, who determine unanimously and independently that these are the remains of several ancient invasions that were laid to waste by a powerful magical ward on the castle they were trying to capture. There were never any survivors and the owner of the castle always tried to cover it up so invaders wouldn't try to find a way to bypass the ward. The castle was eventually razed using an object attuned to bypass the ward, but the warding magic on the location was never destroyed. Be specific about what the item is, possibly a horn which while being blown will disarm the warding magic.

Spread a rumor about how your castle is built on a ruin of an ancient castle that was protected by a powerful magical ward.

Find a cave and create a small dungeon, fill it with simple mechanical traps that automatically reset, plus tons of green slime and yellow mold so the hazards are all self-sustaining yet fairly dangerous. Make it all look very old, bonus points if you actually find an old tomb to use for this. At the end place a stone chest, unlocked, but empty except for a message chiseled on the interior. The above experts on local lore will all confirm that this is the resting place of the item that was used to bypass the ward on the castle. The message chiseled on the inside of the chest should be cryptic, but appear to be personally addressed to whomever discovers it. It should contain something about the writer having taken the item so the readers will not bring doom on themselves through misuse, and something about teaching the reader how to use the item properly via a dream before turning it over to them. It should contain instructions to go to a specific inn and rent a specific room (the Lord's Suite, for example) and a promise that the next morning they'll wake to find they have both the item and the knowledge to use it.

Open an inn by the above name in a nearby town, that room is always reserved for yourself (you have never stayed there and never will) so it's extortionately expensive for anyone to stay there as they must break the reservation. There happens to be an identical room for a reasonable price, and it's in a small town that's out of the way anyway. The room has lavish furnishings and a spectacular view, anyone staying there is served the best food and drink all laced with some sort of sleeping agent made from poppies. Anyone who stays in that room gets assassinated during the night, no exceptions. It shouldn't take more than a dozen experts and half as many warriors dedicated to accomplishing all of this.

Equip your remaining guards as fairly standard for a garrison, to be able to fight off ill-informed attackers such as orcs and goblins.
I am in awe, this is wonderful... I think you win this thread (and probably a few cookies too)

[Humble Master]

Biffoniacus_Furiou, quite the plan, and not what I had in mind. Still, certain things like Bardic Knowledge could potentially ruin it. Still You get tons of points of effectiveness and originality. And bonus points for impersonating adventurers.

[Tvtyrant]

My suggestion is nets, lassos, bolas, harpoons and a tan bag of tricks. The guards stand around flinging debuffing items and summoning rhinos and bears to maul the intruders.

If you cannot use the bag of tricks or a wand of summon monster you can always have them train a few pet bears.

[ArcturusV]

Depends on what you mean by enemies who will use magic, but not high level magic. I presume that means that the enemy will have spellcasters that maybe top out at 3rd level. Then again "high" is a subjective term. I tend to run worlds where by the time people hit 9th-12th level they're legendary heroes settling down and retiring. I don't have an insane number of 20th level characters running around. So most invading hordes would be level 1-3.

I ask because, well, tactically it matters. If I"m dealing with level 1-3 enemies where HP totals are in that range, my options are a lot different if "High" in your mind meant something like level 15 and you're dealing with level 8 armies.

That and I don't catch the name place reference, so if it's a famous campaign location that might have answered the question for me. But presuming my forces are mostly level 1? I'll stick with the idea that they're a relative match for what I'm facing and the elite units of the enemy might be level 3.

The simplest, and most brutal answer I can think of is also perfectly mundane (And depends on how self sufficient the castle is in part). Presuming adequate stockpiles and no need to maintain surrounding terrain? Keep it a fire hazard. Deadwood, old, dry brush. When enemies come, use old fashioned, mundane flasks of oil, torches, or flaming arrows to start fires around the castle. Soon it'll be burning into a full blown conflaguration. Sure high level adventurers might scoff at the 1d6 damage per round of a normal mundane fire. But a level 1-3 army isn't going to have the resources to outfit their soldiers against it, and 1d6 per round is going to kill them off pretty effectively. At the very least you have smoke cover and have bought yourself some time. Time is important, as a fire like that can rage for days. Enough time to send out a courier hawk or other animal to ask from relief from whatever lord you're sworn to, if you have allies out there. If they're close enough, that could give you the time you need.

Sadly that's basically a once a year solution. And if you have no allies and they wait out the flames, you still have to deal with them.

Having you Experts with some ranks in mining, trapsmithing, and engineering could have them building various escape tunnels for your castle (Which would be hard for invaders to navigate due to unknown traps which are hard to deal with at levels 1-3). This combined with the distraction of the Fire and the cover of smoke concealment can give you the chance to counter attack. You can almost literally pull every last man and woman off the walls. Have them armed up. Pick a tunnel with a good exit point. Pop up behind the arm and wreck havoc in their hind quarters while they have no idea that your castle is undefended. Or necessarily means to get there with the fire still raging. Hit and run back. You can probably manage to do this once, maybe up to three times with acceptable losses/damage depending on the confusion the fire creates in their battleplan. You're looking to keep your soldiers alive as much as possible, rather than get kills. It's more important for you to have 5 that are injured rather than 1 dead, so that has to be drilled into your tactics and how you engage.

After the hit and run stage? You settle back, bandage and wound up. Some experts with ranks in Heal can end up recovering about 1/3 to half their life per day while the fires rage. Magic? Not needed here. And one of the reasons an injured soldier is more important than a dead one.

After that you end up in standard siege tactics. As the fires die down, your guys get up on the walls, longbows out. You can hit out to 1100' with them, which out ranges any magic at that level, so bring on the mage corps, you'll rip them to shreds before they waggle their fingers. Use volley fire to maximize your chances as much as possible. Won't take more than 10 warriors or so firing as a volley to have a good chance of guaranteeing a kill. So 10 volleys per round. Post fire ashes, logs, etc, should count as difficult terrain so that slows the charge of the enemy giving you a lot more turns to fire free.

At this point I don't know of a mundane army that would be a threat unless they massively outnumbered you. In which case your stall for time and call for reinforcements is really your best shot. Short of the disinformation campaign above which I loved.

[unseenmage]

Invest in Hospitals and the small scale interior equivalent of trains.
Firemen poles ought to do it.

Proper medics can keep your dudes from losing limbs and becoming dead weight over time while proper transportation will make sure your first responders aren't the last responders.

Signal whistles too, it worked for the London watch it'll work for you.

Seconding dogs, dogs and more dogs. Especially if you can talk your DM into letting you advance them via training.

Set up training yards for your men, and a training course. Resetting traps will give them experience if the danger is real enough, even if it's not horrendously lethal. Xp is given for overcoming challenges, not for surviving lethality.

Clear a 400 foot pasture between the walls and the treeline, keep it mown via pastured cattle or goats.

One trebuchet in your open air courtyard on a swivelling platform can threaten a LOT of area beyond your walls, more than one and you're going to be wiping the floor with intruders before they can even let fly arrows.

Masterwork everything. Mundane crafting just takes extra time when you can scavenge the 1/3 the cost of materials from your environment. (remember those trees you were supposed to cut down?)

Train the guard dogs to sniff out alchemy and magic spell components and to attack verbal/somatic spellcating on sight.

Train at least one expedition to hunt bigger badder nonmagic nonsentient guard animals for training purposes and guarding purposes.

Buy a library dedicated to the combat of spellcasters and the things they summon/bind/call/employ. Your greatest weapon is knowledge.

Alchemy may be taboo but nothing stops you from setting pit traps with poo covered spikes at the bottom. Filth Fever can be a decent deterrent.

It doesn't take a Druid to plant hostile plant life in strategic locations. Use thorny roses, molds, fungus, slimes, whatever you can to funnel attackers through to the points in the surrounding terrain where you want them. Like across those aforementioned pit traps perhaps.

Boiling oil, tar, boiling water, poison are all viable things to pour from your battlements. Be sure you can get them up there and deploy them easily.

[Dawnmor]

Traps, moats, Spiked meaness, covered by brush and your good to go.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Biffoniacus_Furiou, quite the plan, and not what I had in mind. Still, certain things like Bardic Knowledge could potentially ruin it. Still You get tons of points of effectiveness and originality. And bonus points for impersonating adventurers.

It would actually be a lower DC for Bardic Knowledge to come up with the fabricated story than what it would take to realize that it's all bollocks. Plus if you get started on the rumors of the site's history before you even begin construction of the castle, it will be widely known and widely accepted enough that it cannot be ignored. You could easily plant another rumor that you've tried discrediting the story so invaders will be unprepared and fall victim to the magical ward!

[Emperor Tippy]

Well first, sell the castle as it is indefensible.

Now use the money to build down and out and basically create a non magical hell dungeon. Think Dwarf Fortress.

----
If you clear lines of fire then all you do is give casters line of sight and line of effect. Throw up a Wind Wall, get a high level wand of fireballs (maximized, energy subbed to acid, energy admixed with acid, twinned, and all the meta reducers if you want to be real nasty) and a single individual could clear and breach your walls in short order and with impunity.

Even a regular wand of fireballs (energy substitution: acid) at minimal caster level has a range of 600 feet and that single wand can create a 40 foot breach in a hewn stone wall. And it can do so in under 4 minutes.

Maximized, Admixtured, Twinned, Enlarged at CL 20 it has a range of 2,400 feet and deals 180 damage per shot. In 3 shots, 18 seconds, it will have created a 40 foot breach in your castle walls.

Then there is a Wand of Enlarged, Fell Drained, Invisible, Arcane Thesis Magic Missile. At CL 1 it has a range of 220 feet and costs 750 GP for 50 uses, or 15 GP per use. Such a wand will one shot kill with total impunity an ECL 1 warrior. At CL 20 said wand has a range of 600 feet.

Now throw on flight, invisibility, travel through the earth, teleportation, travel through fire, incorporeality, the ethereal plane.

Defending the traditional castle without the use of magic requires absurd amounts of money for even moderate success. What can be done with a hundred and fifty ECL 1 individuals and 25,000 GP to spend on non magical goods to defend a normal castle is highly limited, to the point where I bet I can capture and clear any such castle with a party of 4 ECL 3 characters.

[Inferno]

Have Tiered defenses, when the main gates fall you don't want the enemy to have full run of the courtyard. Fence off an area between the gate and the rest of the grounds, even if it's only with some mediocre palisade. Also: casks of oil are non-magical and fairly cost-efficient. Drop a barrel on invaders, apply fire.

[Azoth]

Take your experts and have them train in crafting. Break them off into groups of 10 for this purpose, that gets you all you need to make all armors/weapons, poisons, traps, and still leaves groups for healing and animal training.

Set the warriors to clearing as wide a radius around the stronghold as possible of all trees and large bushes/shrubs. This should take sufficient time for your experts to train.

Next have the Experts lead groups of 10 warriors each to cconstruct trenches, pit traps, charge breakers, pike fences, and other assortments of nasty surprises for the enemy to find. Using lumber from the cleared forest. Save some of the larger chunks and big rocks too...raining debris is murder on a ladder squad.

While they are doing that, the poison crafters will focus on injury and ingested poisons. These are to be used on arrows/bolts and the moat itself. Since moats were not used as drinking water supplies it won't pose a threat to your troops but any unfortunate soul who tries to cross it risks a dose from any open wounds/accidentally getting a mouth full.

Your crafters are going to make as much generic light armor, shields, ranged weapons and one handed weapons as possible. Also a good supply of polearms...can never have too many of those. (Fastest ones to make for those that don't want a shield are sling and quarter staffs).

Your animal trainers/trappers have been fast at work securing all the fleeing wild life and turning anything suitably aggressive into trained attack animals.

Next step are regularly mounted vats of oil to be heated at first hint of enemy aggression. We want gallons of the stuff in each one. I am talking deep fry the cow alive amounts here.

Oh, any dead you have get chummed up and added to the trenches/pit traps. No sense letting biological warfare go to waste.

Take the heads of any dead you have, including dog sized animals or larger, and place them on spikes around the clearing you have. Maybe in some patterns or such. Gotta love psychological warfare.

When battles begin, the enemy has to wade through a veritable mine field of obstacle to reach the moat while taking crossbow fire, cross a poisonous soup, and then try to attack the walls while being bathed in enough oil the US might invade to steal it and having stones and logs dropped on their heads.

[stupiddDice]

gratuitous abuse of aid another when the warriors fight

[Vizzerdrix]

Don't like magic? *Lantanese Artificer (also called a gnome artificer). Hire a few and call it a day.


*this PrC can be found in Magic of Faerun.

[unseenmage]

Also, you are paranoid about magic, and won't use it at all. Not even alchemical substances. Assume that you will be attacked by things that do use magic (though not very high level magic).
Emphasis mine, but all in good fun.


Well first, sell the castle as it is indefensible.

Now use the money to build down and out and basically create a non magical hell dungeon. Think Dwarf Fortress.

----
If you clear lines of fire then all you do is give casters line of sight and line of effect. Throw up a Wind Wall, get a high level wand of fireballs (maximized, energy subbed to acid, energy admixed with acid, twinned, and all the meta reducers if you want to be real nasty) and a single individual could clear and breach your walls in short order and with impunity.

Even a regular wand of fireballs (energy substitution: acid) at minimal caster level has a range of 600 feet and that single wand can create a 40 foot breach in a hewn stone wall. And it can do so in under 4 minutes.

Maximized, Admixtured, Twinned, Enlarged at CL 20 it has a range of 2,400 feet and deals 180 damage per shot. In 3 shots, 18 seconds, it will have created a 40 foot breach in your castle walls.

Then there is a Wand of Enlarged, Fell Drained, Invisible, Arcane Thesis Magic Missile. At CL 1 it has a range of 220 feet and costs 750 GP for 50 uses, or 15 GP per use. Such a wand will one shot kill with total impunity an ECL 1 warrior. At CL 20 said wand has a range of 600 feet.

Now throw on flight, invisibility, travel through the earth, teleportation, travel through fire, incorporeality, the ethereal plane.

Defending the traditional castle without the use of magic requires absurd amounts of money for even moderate success. What can be done with a hundred and fifty ECL 1 individuals and 25,000 GP to spend on non magical goods to defend a normal castle is highly limited, to the point where I bet I can capture and clear any such castle with a party of 4 ECL 3 characters.

Get outta here nonmagical suggestions, you're drunk.

But seriously, my first thought on seeing the great and powerful emperor had posted was, 'What's he doing in here? This isn't a problem that can be solved with Ice Assassins.' :smallbiggrin:

[Fable Wright]

Emphasis mine, but all in good fun.



Get outta here nonmagical suggestions, you're drunk.

But seriously, my first thought on seeing the great and powerful emperor had posted was, 'What's he doing in here? This isn't a problem that can be solved with Ice Assassins.' :smallbiggrin:

He's pointing out what a mage could do against you that you need to defend against. And he's got a good point. A random random adventurer firing a use-activated item of Launch Item through a Wind Wall (the Launched Item is technically not a ranged projectile, and the Wind Wall could easily be from a wand; 150 rounds of sniping is all the adventurer needs) and gunning your guards down with Aboleth Mucus doses that automatically hit and are lethal at least 85% of the time could take down your castle with relative ease and little expenditure compared to the gain. (3000gp for 150 doses of mucus, 900gp for the wrist-mounted Launch Item device, 4.5k for the wand, and 2k for the adamantine tower shield that they use to get into position: Total of 10,400gp and a few minutes spent for a 500,000gp castle and 25,000gp of preparations. A party of 4 level 3 adventurers with WBL could afford this.) On the flip side, if you invested in a 900gp in a wrist-mounted Launch Item device and a stockpile of Aboleth mucus, this really wouldn't be an issue. The entirely nonmagical, non-alchemical defenses really couldn't do much against a single prepared adventurer with magic and a budget.

Really, Biffoniacus_Furiou's idea is the best nonmagical defense you can afford, as it's the only defense you could have against the biggest security risk of all: Adventurers.

[Lightlawbliss]

how do I do it?

the "small castle" is inside the top of the worlds tallest mountain, only accessible by a 10 ft wide road snaking also the steepest parts of the mountain always in sight of the castle. There are cheap and easily destroyed rope bridges all along the way up.

Make sure all your men are knowledgeable in climbing and have a lot of spare stones at the ready to literally destroy the only way shy of climbing or magic to get to the keep. Experts craft whatever else you want crafted, like weapons and armor. Maybe a few gliders in-case you need to get lost.

[Eldariel]

Angles of attack you need to combat that you never needed to deal with in reality:
- AOE damage magic
- Stealth magic
- Teleportation magic
- Creatures highly resistant or straightout immune to mundane weapons (I suppose tanks can approximate these, with the exception that they're thrown against medieval technology)
- Mundane stealth and camouflage so good the user is basically invisible to the naked eye


Low-level stealth magic and mundane stealth can mostly be foiled by using e.g. guard dogs or whatever with senses that can detect them. Hounds are probably the cheapest option. However, these foils can be foiled so not the most reliable.

AOE magic; that has to be accounted for in the design of the castle. A large number of low-level warriors can only accomplish anything in hordes and yet hordes are ideal targets for magic. Murderholes, small walls and such to break line of effect (small hatches for the holes too) are kinda necessary.

Then you get to Teleport where the lowest possible level option is like Forbiddance. No matter how you structure your castle, you basically can't get any kind of an advantage against an opponent who uses Teleport. So yeah, pretty ****ed here.

Finally, monsters that can't be dealt with weapon attacks. Burning arrows might work in some cases (can ready braziers for it) but by and large, they're just going to do whatever they damn please. First level warriors can't produce sufficient damage to hit through any kind of DR reliably.


A castle is incredibly inefficient in a world with D&D-style magic. More useful parallels could be found in real life though even defense lines are obsolete with teleportation.

Point defense with extremely mobile (teleporting) defense force with extremely efficient communication (telepathy or so) is really the only way of generating an efficient defense in an area. Of course, here we're talking one locale so it's somewhat doable to defend it but not from everything the game has to offer.

[unseenmage]

Angles of attack you need to combat that you never needed to deal with in reality:
- AOE damage magic
- Stealth magic
- Teleportation magic
- Creatures highly resistant or straightout immune to mundane weapons (I suppose tanks can approximate these, with the exception that they're thrown against medieval technology)
- Mundane stealth and camouflage so good the user is basically invisible to the naked eye


Low-level stealth magic and mundane stealth can mostly be foiled by using e.g. guard dogs or whatever with senses that can detect them. Hounds are probably the cheapest option. However, these foils can be foiled so not the most reliable.

AOE magic; that has to be accounted for in the design of the castle. A large number of low-level warriors can only accomplish anything in hordes and yet hordes are ideal targets for magic. Murderholes, small walls and such to break line of effect (small hatches for the holes too) are kinda necessary.

Then you get to Teleport where the lowest possible level option is like Forbiddance. No matter how you structure your castle, you basically can't get any kind of an advantage against an opponent who uses Teleport. So yeah, pretty ****ed here.

Finally, monsters that can't be dealt with weapon attacks. Burning arrows might work in some cases (can ready braziers for it) but by and large, they're just going to do whatever they damn please. First level warriors can't produce sufficient damage to hit through any kind of DR reliably.

Emphasis mine.

Don't Teleport type spells require line of sight? Taper your walls and crenellations just so and sure they can teleport up there but then they spide right back down. And Teleporting into enemy lines means you're in amidst your enemy and thereby boned.
Low level teleport doesn't really improve on running and jumping much. Well it improves on jumping, but mundane rope does that too.

And sure the Warrior mob might not be able to out-damage, but they can out Strength. If many small weapons won't do the trick, use the horde of little dudes to heave larger weapons. Boulders hurt. Bigger boulders hurt more. And the only requisite is Str, which can be pooled by many lower Str dudes. Esp with creative use of Rope.

[Eldariel]

Emphasis mine.

Don't Teleport type spells require line of sight? Taper your walls and crenellations just so and sure they can teleport up there but then they spide right back down. And Teleporting into enemy lines means you're in amidst your enemy and thereby boned.

No they usually don't. Requiring line of effect or sight is an exception, not rule. That's why they have all those shunting rules and such too. But yeah, Teleport is basically a continental-level effect; takes more than a wall or two to affect it.

Teleporting into enemy lines is pointless, being able to teleport behind them means the whole defense line is pointless. The whole point of a defense line is to stop enemy from advancing in-land; a flanked or bypassed line doesn't actually accomplish anything.


And sure the Warrior mob might not be able to out-damage, but they can out Strength. If many small weapons won't do the trick, use the horde of little dudes to heave larger weapons. Boulders hurt. Bigger boulders hurt more. And the only requisite is Str, which can be pooled by many lower Str dudes. Esp with creative use of Rope.

Usually extremely impractical, requires lots of planning (anything heavier than siege engine just takes too long to move to be useful, and the castle has to be built with it in mind for it to be possible in the first place) and still probably only scratches something with DR 10/X. Further, whatever requires such measures probably kills the boulder-users with one sweep of the hand and it'll be hard for new lemmings to occupy the location due to having to get past the Thing.

[Slipperychicken]

Teleporting into enemy lines is pointless, being able to teleport behind them means the whole defense line is pointless. The whole point of a defense line is to stop enemy from advancing in-land; a flanked or bypassed line doesn't actually accomplish anything.


Theoretically, characters capable of teleportation should be rare enough that they can't get a significant number of opponents behind your lines in a reasonable amount of time. They'll hopefully be too busy handling your own magic-users (mostly competing in things like intelligence-gathering and disinformation) to get more than a few small teams deployed anyway.

I think that although magic would have a profound, revolutionary impact on the way wars would be fought, it would still be rare enough that conventional armed forces would remain a necessary component (after all, it's pretty hard for a cabal of spellcasters to keep the peace without any help from minions).

[Crasical]

I may be optimizing on the 'wrong level' here, but the Weapon and Torch feat is a discount-rack version of TWF with no dex requirement and a dazzle effect tacked onto the second 1d6 fire damage swing.

the Missile Volley teamwork Benefit and the Arrow Volley from Cwar both help out mundane archers a little, too. The former in particular is a nice solid +8 to hit, if you allow a human/flawed 1st level warrior for precise shot.

That would give the warriors a slight edge over unoptimized 1st level warriors, at least. Probably not enough to punch outside their weight class.

[John Longarrow]

1) 10' out from the base of the walls, a 20' wide, 10' deep trench with brick faced walls. These slope out at about a 10 degree angle, thus preventing anyone at the bottom from using them for cover.

2) Alternating bands radiating out from the keep - Short grass 10' wide then 10' wide 3' deep trench filled with black berry bushes. The trenchs should keep the berry bushes growing well and the entire piece should hinder movement very well.

This should stop anyone from coming at the walls quickly.

3) Drawbridge (30') across surrounding trench. This is 20' up from the ground. There is then a wooden bridge that runs 60' further (also 20' up) before it goes down a wooden ramp about 80' long. The end of the ramp meets with the main road in and also is the demarcation for where the berrybush rings ends.

At this point the enemy can't get to the walls quickly unless they go down a 10' bridge. This should cut down on climbing and assault movement.

4) All interior walls/floors/ceilings are painted with lead. This provides waterproofing as well as stoping a lot of magic. This is also a fairly effective way to protect otherwise exposed wood from flame.

5) Defensive weapons. At least 20 tower shields. If the enemy gets close, warriors can create a portable wall that should stop combat from pushing in.

6) LOTS of long spears. Reach is your friend on defense, especially if you are stabbing at the guys on the other side of a shield wall of tower shields.

7) LOTS of light crossbows. For warriors these make effective ranged weapons that should cover the surrounding area.

8) LOTS of oil flasks and torchers. As pointed out before, flame is your friend.

I would need to know a lot more about the location (Climate, geology, water supply, local flora, main supply routes/water course, local inhabitants) to give more than general ideas. Most specifically what the most likely local threats are.

9) Light/Medium siege weapons (Balista on walls, catapults on solid towers) tailored to the local environment/expected opposition.

[Lightlawbliss]

1) 10' out from the base of the walls, a 20' wide, 10' deep trench with brick faced walls. These slope out at about a 10 degree angle, thus preventing anyone at the bottom from using them for cover.

2) Alternating bands radiating out from the keep - Short grass 10' wide then 10' wide 3' deep trench filled with black berry bushes. The trenchs should keep the berry bushes growing well and the entire piece should hinder movement very well.

This should stop anyone from coming at the walls quickly.

3) Drawbridge (30') across surrounding trench. This is 20' up from the ground. There is then a wooden bridge that runs 60' further (also 20' up) before it goes down a wooden ramp about 80' long. The end of the ramp meets with the main road in and also is the demarcation for where the berrybush rings ends.

At this point the enemy can't get to the walls quickly unless they go down a 10' bridge. This should cut down on climbing and assault movement.

4) All interior walls/floors/ceilings are painted with lead. This provides waterproofing as well as stoping a lot of magic. This is also a fairly effective way to protect otherwise exposed wood from flame.

5) Defensive weapons. At least 20 tower shields. If the enemy gets close, warriors can create a portable wall that should stop combat from pushing in.

6) LOTS of long spears. Reach is your friend on defense, especially if you are stabbing at the guys on the other side of a shield wall of tower shields.

7) LOTS of light crossbows. For warriors these make effective ranged weapons that should cover the surrounding area.

8) LOTS of oil flasks and torchers. As pointed out before, flame is your friend.

I would need to know a lot more about the location (Climate, geology, water supply, local flora, main supply routes/water course, local inhabitants) to give more than general ideas. Most specifically what the most likely local threats are.

9) Light/Medium siege weapons (Balista on walls, catapults on solid towers) tailored to the local environment/expected opposition.

Berry bushes? do you want to feed the people attacking your city? Berry bushes, even spiky ones, won't do much to stop the enemy unless the stop to gather the food. Inside your walls, rings of large dense food producing bushes would be great; outside your just making your life harder. Some poisonous citrus plants planted in trenches? Now we are talking pain and suffering. If the smoke is poisonous too, even better.

[John Longarrow]

Berry bushes? do you want to feed the people attacking your city? Berry bushes, even spiky ones, won't do much to stop the enemy unless the stop to gather the food. Inside your walls, rings of large dense food producing bushes would be great; outside your just making your life harder. Some poisonous citrus plants planted in trenches? Now we are talking pain and suffering. If the smoke is poisonous too, even better.

Lightlawbliss,
I am assuming you have never grown blackberries. Even in full plate you will still be going slow, in the middle of winter. 5' tall bushes would be (easiest) rough terrain. Normal, you'd be able to move about 5' through on a round. No, won't STOP people. Also won't really give cover / concealment against someone shooting at you.

As to feeding the attackers, once more I don't think you've grown them. :smallcool:

[ArcturusV]

Well, typically people imagine campaigns happening late summer/fall. Spring is muddy, miserable, and bad for logistics. Winter is death on an army. So you'd typically imagine someone coming to break into your castle would be during the time that blackberries would be ripe.

... that and good luck keeping them under control. One year and your entire castle would be choked off by those things. Weeds envy how they grow. You'd need all 50 experts to be gardeners just to keep it tame. :smalltongue:

[unseenmage]

Well, typically people imagine campaigns happening late summer/fall. Spring is muddy, miserable, and bad for logistics. Winter is death on an army. So you'd typically imagine someone coming to break into your castle would be during the time that blackberries would be ripe.

... that and good luck keeping them under control. One year and your entire castle would be choked off by those things. Weeds envy how they grow. You'd need all 50 experts to be gardeners just to keep it tame. :smalltongue:

Or goats. Goats would work too. Goats on tethers so they don't walk trails through your blackberries.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Get a bunch of barrels, fill them with saw dust and store them in a cool dry place away from combat. Use tiered defences, when the courtyard is going to be breached, set up the barrels all over. When the enemy approaches, Light her up.

[John Longarrow]

Well, typically people imagine campaigns happening late summer/fall. Spring is muddy, miserable, and bad for logistics. Winter is death on an army. So you'd typically imagine someone coming to break into your castle would be during the time that blackberries would be ripe.

... that and good luck keeping them under control. One year and your entire castle would be choked off by those things. Weeds envy how they grow. You'd need all 50 experts to be gardeners just to keep it tame. :smalltongue:

I'm thinking you'd have the 3' deep trench lined with bricks to help keep them in check. I can also see having a gnome make you a pull mower to run between the trenches (guide wheels in the trench to keep it straight) that would help cut down on the expansive growth. Start at the bridge, go in a circle, trim a little, then to go the next. Could even have a lifting system on the bridge to help move/align the mower.

[Lightlawbliss]

Lightlawbliss,
I am assuming you have never grown blackberries. Even in full plate you will still be going slow, in the middle of winter. 5' tall bushes would be (easiest) rough terrain. Normal, you'd be able to move about 5' through on a round. No, won't STOP people. Also won't really give cover / concealment against someone shooting at you.

As to feeding the attackers, once more I don't think you've grown them. :smallcool:

your right that I haven't grown them, however I happen to work for a Landscaping company and Blackberries show up on the list every so often. I have likely removed more blackberry bushes (takes 3 guys about half an hour on a bad day, including stump and major roots) then you have ever grown. I dare say that If I was covered in metal armor I would whack it with a big stick a few times to make an opening and just walk through. I'm more scared of a wild rose then a blackberry bush.

PS: we use thick leather gloves when we remove plants and I don't feel a single poke from a blackberry... and my gloves are full of holes from various plants.

Edit: the 1.5 man hour number is for blackberries grown on an easily removable wire/string support structure. It takes longer if it is one of those DEC. mesh supports and some people have real stupid supports that they use which can take a lot longer (like the guy last week that used an electrified barb wire fence).

[John Longarrow]

Lightlawbliss

Very sorry to hear you've had to remove these vile plants. As a source of free candy (effectively) for kids, they are nice to have. As a slowly growing infestation destine to overrun your lawn, well....

Banging them with a stick won't let you move through at normal speed though. It takes a while to cut through with a machete. Double move to try and close with a castle (or run) is what most troops want to do. They don't want to spend an entire round trying to cross 10' or less.

Growing heavy bushes every 10' would work like barbed wire. You have to do something to cross. Toss a couple tower shields down and you can walk over or lay down a 10' ladder to make a crossing. This still channels attackers and slows how quickly they get to the wall.

For most fortifications, defense in depth backed by the ability to project damage is the goal. A single wall is useless unless you have troops to defend it. Adding barriers that slow down an attacker keeps them in a kill zone longer. I don't care if they are nibbling on berries or not, just so long as the archers keep shooting at them.

[Lightlawbliss]

Lightlawbliss

Very sorry to hear you've had to remove these vile plants. As a source of free candy (effectively) for kids, they are nice to have. As a slowly growing infestation destine to overrun your lawn, well....

They aren't that bad when you know what your doing.


Banging them with a stick won't let you move through at normal speed though. It takes a while to cut through with a machete. Double move to try and close with a castle (or run) is what most troops want to do. They don't want to spend an entire round trying to cross 10' or less.

If they really want to attack you, having outriders light the bushes on fire isn't past an armies abilities. Even if it takes a minute or two to catch on fire, your archers aren't going to get much done when the single guy can get total cover from them.


Growing heavy bushes every 10' would work like barbed wire. You have to do something to cross. Toss a couple tower shields down and you can walk over or lay down a 10' ladder to make a crossing. This still channels attackers and slows how quickly they get to the wall.

For most fortifications, defense in depth backed by the ability to project damage is the goal. A single wall is useless unless you have troops to defend it. Adding barriers that slow down an attacker keeps them in a kill zone longer. I don't care if they are nibbling on berries or not, just so long as the archers keep shooting at them.

wait... your laying them down low enough that tower shields can be used to cross? That is jump check material if I've even seen it.

Back to my citrus suggestion: I said citrus for a reason. A citrus plant left to it's own devices makes a well kept blackberry look peaceful. The thorns are longer, the branches get even denser, the plants taller, you can choose varieties that produce fruit not fit for consumption, and some of those same varieties happen to have poisonous smoke (looks at that DEC. orange that we can't use anything hot on, even with a mask... can't find the actual name right now)

[Zirconia]

Well first, sell the castle as it is indefensible.

Now use the money to build down and out and basically create a non magical hell dungeon. Think Dwarf Fortress.

[snip]

What can be done with a hundred and fifty ECL 1 individuals and 25,000 GP to spend on non magical goods to defend a normal castle is highly limited, to the point where I bet I can capture and clear any such castle with a party of 4 ECL 3 characters.

Yeah, last time I built a castle from scratch, which was in the AD&D days, it was underground, same reason. There are just too many things that fly, can go invisible and climb up mountains/over walls (Spider Climb, 1st level), etc. If you force everyone to go through trapped corridors, you have a lot more control. Walls of beads on strings and dogs to spot invisibles going through, traps with Yellow Mold, things you can drop like nets, etc. without ever exposing your people.

If all you need to stop is a mundane army, no Monsters, no magic, Harlech Castle in Wales held off thousands with under 50 defenders on several occasions back in the middle ages, that isn't too hard.