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Talakeal
2013-09-07, 03:13 PM
I have recently noticed a disturbing trend in miniature manufacturers. Most are drastically cutting down on their range. Games Workshop has recently discontinued their entire metal range, and only a small percentage of them have been recast in their inferior (imo) Finecast material. Reaper hasn't released any new models in almost six months, and it is doubtful they will ever do so in metal again now that their new "bones" material is released.

WoTC more or less stopped producing D&D miniatures.

I was recently going through my bookmarks and found that every single other miniature manufacturer I had purchased from are now either out of business, sold out of everything, or have released nothing new in a year.

What is going on? I know that the price of metal has gone up, did that really kill the entire industry? Is there some new company out there I don't know about?

Rhynn
2013-09-07, 03:25 PM
There actually seem to be a lot of smaller miniatures manufacturers popping up, many with Kickstarters to pre-fund ranges of minis. A lot of them seem to be connected to the Old-School Renaissance movement, putting out classics like pig-faced orcs.

Wish I could link you to a bunch, but I just come across them trawling the OSR blogs, and I'm not that interested in minis myself...

Tyndmyr
2013-09-07, 03:54 PM
Well, Reaper is all tied up in the Bones backlog. The stuff they have available for merchants to order is spotty as hell. Presumably it'll be fixed in time, though, and the minis from them are quite nice.

There's another decently large mini kickstarter up at the moment.

Games Workshop ain't bad...but they're new to the finecast stuff, and thus, they have some bugs to work out of the process. Bubbles, etc, that kind of thing.

The big problem is that minis were just getting really expensive. There's a fire giant model in metal over at another store in the area...but it's like $42. I like models, but at prices like that, it gets harder to justify a large collection. Don't even get me started on GW prices.

So, the industry is adjusting to new materials, new manufacturing methods, stuff like that. Some companies just can't, and some won't. Those will sadly die, or turn into much smaller companies...but someone, somewhere is still gonna be making nifty minis.

Zahhak
2013-09-07, 04:10 PM
I cannot remember the exact term, but in economics there's a principle that explains a lot of this. If you have two objects that both do the exact same thing, but one costs more and offers no objective benefits, no one will ever buy it. Miniatures are just kind of a "nice thing to have", even in gaming since you could use coins if you really wanted to. Metal minis may be nice if you really want metal minis, but they cost more to make than plastic and offer no objective benefits. With the price of metals rising, people who might actually want metal are jumping ship to plastic.

Basically, because plastic does the exact same thing, even a small increase in the price of metal is going to cause large drops in demand, so the companies that make them are dropping them.

Talakeal
2013-09-07, 04:17 PM
I cannot remember the exact term, but in economics there's a principle that explains a lot of this. If you have two objects that both do the exact same thing, but one costs more and offers no objective benefits, no one will ever buy it. Miniatures are just kind of a "nice thing to have", even in gaming since you could use coins if you really wanted to. Metal minis may be nice if you really want metal minis, but they cost more to make than plastic and offer no objective benefits. With the price of metals rising, people who might actually want metal are jumping ship to plastic.

Basically, because plastic does the exact same thing, even a small increase in the price of metal is going to cause large drops in demand, so the companies that make them are dropping them.

I wish we could get some nice plastic minis. All it seems anyone wants to make anymore is resin and rubber minis that are impossible to work with and fragile as all heck.

Tyndmyr
2013-09-07, 04:26 PM
The big problem is that typically, the quality plastic minis(think, GWs boxed product) require injection molding, which require custom cut steel molds and fairly expensive hardware. So, it doesn't make sense unless you're engaging in some serious quantity.

We may eventually see Reaper or someone get back into that, but right now, finecast level stuff is almost as good while being vastly easier to get into.

Talakeal
2013-09-07, 05:51 PM
We may eventually see Reaper or someone get back into that, but right now, finecast level stuff is almost as good while being vastly easier to get into.

Not to turn this into a rant against Finecast, but it is not, imo, "almost" as good. More than 50% of the finecast products I have bought have been seriously and irreparably miscast, and while I have plenty of 25 year old metal and plastic models that are still serviceable I have finecast models which are barely a year old and are already seriously warped from environmental factors alone.

Eldan
2013-09-07, 06:13 PM
Interesting. I love finecast and detest metal.

It's heavy. So, it's difficult to transport and the glue never seems to stick. My old metal models fall apart all the time, even if I reglue them. They have bad balance, too and if they fall over, they can easily crush terrain pieces or smaller models. Then, the paint never seems to stick on them, they chip far too easily.

Finecast, on the other hand? Takes paint nicely, it's light and from the two dozen models I've bought so far, worst I had was a bent sniper rifle.

Zahhak
2013-09-07, 07:42 PM
impossible to work with and fragile as all heck

difficult to transport and the glue never seems to stick

What the crap are you people doing with your minis? Unless you're using Warhammer minis, just buy a bunch of cheap plastic ones and call it a day. Holy crap.

Grinner
2013-09-07, 08:37 PM
You all are going about this in the wrong way. :smallsigh: C'mon. Metal miniatures? Injection molding? What is this? The 80's? Get with the times. 3D printers are continuously being improved, and there's such a wide variety of materials. On top of that, 3D modelling tools are now freely available, and 3D scanners can be built on the cheap.




Obviously, you should be making your minis out of chocolate. :smallbiggrin:

endoperez
2013-09-07, 09:11 PM
You all are going about this in the wrong way. :smallsigh: C'mon. Metal miniatures? Injection molding? What is this? The 80's? Get with the times. 3D printers are continuously being improved, and there's such a wide variety of materials. On top of that, 3D modelling tools are now freely available, and 3D scanners can be built on the cheap.




Obviously, you should be making your minis out of chocolate. :smallbiggrin:

See the discussion on prices. 3D printing is expensive. The advantage of 3D printing is that printing 1 object is cheap. The start-up costs are in getting the printer and materials, you don't need to make molds or whatnot. Minis are sold in bulk, so if they are sold at all, it should be cheaper to create them in bulk, with materials and techniques that might give both better detail and better material properties.

Grinner
2013-09-07, 09:38 PM
See the discussion on prices. 3D printing is expensive. The advantage of 3D printing is that printing 1 object is cheap. The start-up costs are in getting the printer and materials, you don't need to make molds or whatnot. Minis are sold in bulk, so if they are sold at all, it should be cheaper to create them in bulk, with materials and techniques that might give both better detail and better material properties.

You gotta think of the possibilities, though. What could happen when you defeat a unit in play?

You eat it, naturally. Victory will never have tasted so sweet. :smalltongue:

Talakeal
2013-09-07, 09:52 PM
What the crap are you people doing with your minis? Unless you're using Warhammer minis, just buy a bunch of cheap plastic ones and call it a day. Holy crap.

I like plastic models, but they are hard to come by.

Finecast snaps when dropped off a table, melts when left in the car, and the limbs / weapons bend in the carrying case and unlike metal can't be unbent without a risky boiling procedure. Also they are flexible, and though I haven't brought myself to paint one yet but I can't imagine the paint job wont flake off when it happens.

MukkTB
2013-09-07, 10:57 PM
I like having a mini for my character because my character will be in every fight. The orcs we're gonna fight once and kill can be these pink D6s. The skeletons can be penny's.

Anxe
2013-09-07, 11:20 PM
I think minis are dying out partially because of the success of Roll20 and Maptools. If people can play online without minis, they don't buy them. I've only bought three in the last four years since I switched to online meetups with my group.

EDIT: And for 3D printing, the tech isn't there yet, but that is a super cool idea. You could even just drag and drop a model from say, Skyrim, into the printer and out would pop the perfect Argonian mini to represent your lizardfolk armies.

Gamgee
2013-09-07, 11:22 PM
I've had some failed attempts to use mini's, they bog things down too much. We use our imagination. :smallcool:

Joe the Rat
2013-09-08, 12:00 AM
Don't forget the cardboard heroes crowd. It's easy for online publishers to crank out 2-3 sided art, fill a sheet, and sell the pdf. Fills the role without the heavy investment (plus you can triple your orc army by printing three copies).

It's nowhere near the joy of do-it-yourself painting, and they are a little, er, flat. But if it's just about getting feet on the ground, the cheap options abound. (far cheaper than that 3-D printing)

endoperez
2013-09-08, 12:34 AM
EDIT: And for 3D printing, the tech isn't there yet, but that is a super cool idea. You could even just drag and drop a model from say, Skyrim, into the printer and out would pop the perfect Argonian mini to represent your lizardfolk armies.

.... not quite, no. In most games, the models are in some custom format or packaged in some way so that the players don't have easy access to them.

Once you're past that hurdle, you'll have the Argonian naked, standing straight, arms straight and to his sides, neck straight up, face pointing straight forward, tail pointing straight back. You don't actually want to print the Argonian model, but the in-game model in a specific pose with specific equipment. And don't forget to include some sort of a stand, or a way to attach the model to a stand, and/or to balance it so it doesn't fall over.

Then that equipment might be faked in various ways which are incompatible with 3D printing. Let's say he has a spear with feathers in it. Those feathers might be 2-dimensional rectangles with to depth, and the feather-shape faked into them with transparency. Games use all sorts of fake tricks all the time, and many of them won't work with 3D printing.

If you get that hurdle sorted, you still have the problem of scale. In one game, 1 meter might be 1000 units. In another, it might be 10. It's pretty common that two models from different games have a 100x times size difference. Thankfully the 3D printers will not let you even try it when the model is that big, but size differences could easily be problematic, and of course you'd also have to pay for the model of the human that's only 2/3rd of the height of all your other humans.

The best bet would be that some companies embrace 3D printing and let you buy a "print code" or something that you can redeem in your closest 3D printing shop. One code for "Argonian warrior with sword and shield", another for "Argonian mage with a staff", buy 10 get 1 for free. Each of these models would be made from the same models used for the game, but would be edited by the artists to work well with 3D printing.

Rhynn
2013-09-08, 12:53 AM
Also, good luck "printing" a texture (essentially a 2D picture) on that model, even if you could get around the fact that in games like Skyrim there's not just one or two, but countless textures that are combined in complicated ways...

I'm holding out for nanoprinters (and skullguns).

Balain
2013-09-08, 01:24 AM
Our gaming group talked about the D&D minis. We all liked them the problem was in how they were packaged. Also made fun of in the comic. A box of 8 random figures...then later 5 or 6 random figures.

If you are using them in a roleplaying game and not just collecting them, you want like a box of orcs or better yet a box of orc archers, a box of orc swordsman, etc.

Felhammer
2013-09-08, 03:55 AM
Minis in general are not dieing, not in the least. Metal minis, however, are going the way of the dodo bird. Metal is just too expensive these days.

In general, plastic and resin is cheaper (for the company) and easier to work with (for the hobbyist). Metal is heavy and very fragile (if the model comes in multiple pieces). I can't tell you how much trouble I've had with metal Warhammer models (sigh).

Resin is a good alternative because, as I understand it, you can use the same molds you were using for metal models and stuff resin in there with only a minor amount of work. Which is great because the only other method of getting high quality non-metal models is very, very expensive (i.e what GW does with their normal plastic kits).

WotC stopped making minis because their product was aimed at two very different crowds - RPers and Wargamers - neither of which was fully satisfied with WotC's distribution method. The product languished for a while but was eventually transformed into the RPer-oriented booster that had 1 model revealed for the world to see. However, this cheesed off stores because they were often left with a backlog of boosters whose revealed mini was unpopular (I'm looking at you speckled gray Unicorn!). In the end, the entire line was dropped because the product still did not satisfy RPers (who just wanted to buy a box with 10 kobolds or that one awesome hero). Also, the switch to CAD design over physical sculpting really dragged the quality of those last few sets down quite a bit.

Interestingly, I remember seeing another game a few years ago - whose name escapes me at the moment - that utilized many of the old designs for WotC's D&D miniatures line.

WotC still makes minis for some of their board games but at those games are expensive, so it doesn't make sense to buy the entire game just for the unpainted minis.

WotC had to stop making Star Wars minis when they gave up the license. Fantasy Flight has taken up the cause but only for ships thus far.

Paizo continues to make cheap plastic models in the vein of the old D&D minis.

WizKids makes some really nice plastic miniatures. Most are Superheroes but they do make Star Trek, LotR, Halo, Gears of War and Street Fighter minis.

Privateer Press is still going strong but they are drawing their metal down over time.

Corvus Belli's Infinity game utilizes a ton of high quality sci-fi, metal minis.

Malifaux has some amazingly pretty models, most of whom are metal.

endoperez
2013-09-08, 05:57 AM
Also, good luck "printing" a texture (essentially a 2D picture) on that model, even if you could get around the fact that in games like Skyrim there's not just one or two, but countless textures that are combined in complicated ways...

I'm holding out for nanoprinters (and skullguns).

The textures probably wouldn't work at the smaller scale. They'd have to be painted manually, like most minis, and as such would require materials that accept paints well.

The Dark Fiddler
2013-09-08, 08:19 AM
You gotta think of the possibilities, though. What could happen when you defeat a unit in play?

You eat it, naturally. Victory will never have tasted so sweet. :smalltongue:

If that's all you care about, /tg/ once had an idea for a wargame using candy pieces as the units. Intended to be a beer and pretzels game, where you'd just go buy some candy and play. Never really made up rules for it, but I've had some sort of sitting in the back of my mind...


EDIT: And for 3D printing, the tech isn't there yet, but that is a super cool idea. You could even just drag and drop a model from say, Skyrim, into the printer and out would pop the perfect Argonian mini to represent your lizardfolk armies.

If I recall correctly, there's a patent expiring in about a year that will make 3D printing a lot more affordable and accurate.

Jalor
2013-09-08, 08:39 AM
Not to turn this into a rant against Finecast, but it is not, imo, "almost" as good. More than 50% of the finecast products I have bought have been seriously and irreparably miscast, and while I have plenty of 25 year old metal and plastic models that are still serviceable I have finecast models which are barely a year old and are already seriously warped from environmental factors alone.

Games Workshop will send you a new one for free if it's miscast when you get it. Of course, that doesn't do anything about the ones that warp after you get them, but you just need to be really careful about how you store them (i.e. not near an open window).

Of course, this is coming from a DEldar player with an all-plastic list. The other guys in my group insist Finecast isn't that bad, and I take their word for it because they're the ones who actually have them.

zlefin
2013-09-08, 09:22 AM
so what are the costs on 3d printing for models?

Anxe
2013-09-08, 09:44 AM
so what are the costs on 3d printing for models?

The current cost on the printer is $2000 or so. After that you have to buy the plastic or whatever you're using to actually build the mini. Quick search on Google showed that at $5 per pound. That's... A lot of minis. The material cost is essentially irrelevant. It's the model cost that will matter. Some artist has to make it. My idea was to copy it from video games, but endoperez poked all sorts of holes in that idea. I imagine they'll eventually be worked out, but it'll take time.

kidnicky
2013-09-08, 11:52 AM
I don't want to sound cheap, but the prices for even plastic minis are just two damn expensive for what I'm willing to invest in D&D. I can't pay 10 bucks a guy and end up with a decent enough group of chars and combatants for a campaign. Not when WotC has at least 3 different boxed sets for like 20 bucks each that include nice tokens. When I need someone/something not covered by a token, I draw it on a 1 inch square of paper. It doesn't take long to draw a 1" b&w picture,and it's not like it's going in the Louve, it just has to resemble the guy it's supposed to be.

JusticeZero
2013-09-08, 12:22 PM
Next time I have a local group, I might try using Lego figures. I don't have any, but they seem easier to customize characters to fit.

Ravens_cry
2013-09-08, 12:33 PM
Paizo continues to make cheap plastic models in the vein of the old D&D minis.

Though their medium humanoid figs still can use some work, they do awesome plastic larger figs. Better than the D&D ones I would say. The Troll Champion really stretches the definition of the Large Size category, but, damn, it's an awesome fig.

ellindsey
2013-09-08, 12:42 PM
I happen to own a 3D printer, which I am planning to use to make minis for the game I'm running.

There are a number of downsides to the technology. The surface texture and detail are nowhere near as good as what you see with conventional cast metal figurines. 3D printed figures are really only good as representational markers on a battle map, a step up from using cardboard cutouts. You could I suppose sand, fill, and paint them if you wanted them to look really pretty, but that's a fair amount of work. The cheap home 3D printing technology also doesn't do overhanging shapes well, so many figurines will have to be printed in pieces and then glued together.

On the plus side, once you've bought the printer, the plastic feedstock is fairly cheap.

Ravens_cry
2013-09-08, 12:44 PM
I am sure someone can do the math for how many figs you would need to do on a 3D printer in order to break even.

Malimar
2013-09-08, 01:00 PM
Judging from, among other things, Reaper's $3mil kickstarter, the demand hasn't gone anywhere. It's just the supply that's shifting, from WotC to smaller companies. Whether this model is tenable in the long run, well...


The current cost on the printer is $2000 or so. After that you have to buy the plastic or whatever you're using to actually build the mini. Quick search on Google showed that at $5 per pound. That's... A lot of minis. The material cost is essentially irrelevant. It's the model cost that will matter. Some artist has to make it. My idea was to copy it from video games, but endoperez poked all sorts of holes in that idea. I imagine they'll eventually be worked out, but it'll take time.

I predict that the more popular and affordable 3D printers get, the more models are gonna get released under creative commons by hobbyists just designing minis for fun/their own use. I doubt this will be a problem.

I think, if anything winds up actually killing the mini market, ubiquitous, cheap, high-quality 3D printers might. (Probably the least of the changes 3D printers will bring to society. We're living in the future.)

endoperez
2013-09-08, 02:20 PM
so what are the costs on 3d printing for models?

Here's a random examples from the Shapeways 3D printing company, where the models are made by the users:

http://www.shapeways.com/model/32759/elven-healer-39mm-miniature.html

http://www.shapeways.com/model/1290805/house-etryn-puritan-squad-28mm.html?li=shop-results&materialId=6

Note that the material affects the price a lot.

Once they can do enough detail in a material that's durable and paintable, 3D printing could work... but again, as long as miniatures are being sold in bulk, making them in bulk in molds or whatever is cheaper than 3D printing them.

Grinner
2013-09-08, 02:55 PM
Honestly, I think 3D printers are of more use to home users and small startups than they are to anyone else. I don't think they can produce objects as quickly as the more conventional casting methods, leaving them unsuitable for mass production.

It is sort of annoying how the cheaper printers can only handle premade plastic feedstock, too.

Cristo Meyers
2013-09-08, 03:03 PM
Malifaux has some amazingly pretty models, most of whom are metal.

Not for much longer. Wyrd has been going solely plastic/resin for about a year now.

You can still find the older metals pretty easily (and I think they're still making most of them), but anything new that's come out in the past year is plastic or resin (for the larger things).

Subaru Kujo
2013-09-08, 03:31 PM
Yeah, or at the very least, they aren't nearly as common anymore, and a damn pity about it. Love painting my characters, even if I don't use them in my campaign.

ellindsey
2013-09-08, 03:38 PM
Honestly, I think 3D printers are of more use to home users and small startups than they are to anyone else. I don't think they can produce objects as quickly as the more conventional casting methods, leaving them unsuitable for mass production.


Not by a long shot, no. When you're making hundreds or thousands of identical parts, it will always be cheaper to have injection molds made and a run done by a professional injection molding shop. 3D printing is more suited for making small numbers of custom items. For miniatures it only really makes sense when paired with the ability to customize the model of a miniature before printing, so you could have a model that already had the exact equipment and such of your character.



It is sort of annoying how the cheaper printers can only handle premade plastic feedstock, too.

Yep. There have been some attempts to make an open source homemade filament extruder that can take cheap plastic pellets and turn out 3printer grade filament, but it's still in the experimental stage.

Kesnit
2013-09-08, 05:55 PM
The current cost on the printer is $2000 or so.

Actually, you can get a starter 3-D printer for $400 (http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/310-0001&scode=GS401&CAWELAID=1891280047?catargetid=1545764029&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CLba_M_xvLkCFYQ7OgodIXYA-g). Or this larger one for $500 (http://www.solidoodle.com/?gclid=CKKbqazyvLkCFYo7OgodoUAAwg).

Are they good for mass production? No. But for making minis for personal use, they would probably work.

Gnoman
2013-09-08, 06:18 PM
Honestly, I think 3D printers are of more use to home users and small startups than they are to anyone else. I don't think they can produce objects as quickly as the more conventional casting methods, leaving them unsuitable for mass production.


3D printers are more useful to design engineers than anyone else, by a massive margin. The advantages of being able to make rapid mock-ups (not neccessarily functional, but an excellent way to asses ergonomics or other factors of a design that can be difficult to assess from a blueprint or CAD model) and sometimes prototypes (functional in the short term to make sure something actually works) is greater than any industrial invention since CAD/CAM, and possibly earlier.

Beleriphon
2013-09-08, 07:04 PM
My idea was to copy it from video games, but endoperez poked all sorts of holes in that idea. I imagine they'll eventually be worked out, but it'll take time.

You can use free 3D software and the include free human/oid models. Most have at least two male and female styles. Those can be adjusted in a number of ways. The nice thing is you just need to adjust the model shapes rather than worry about the colour and lighting since as a physical object to be painted everything but shape is irrelevant. The big problem is that actually producing a nice looking model is a skill since what looks nice on a screen doesn't necessarily translate to something 25mm to 30mm tall.

There's a reason the rivets on a Landraider if done to life scale would be the size of manhole covers. If you made them to the scale of actual tank sized rivets you couldn't see them on the model.

Tyndmyr
2013-09-08, 08:41 PM
Not to turn this into a rant against Finecast, but it is not, imo, "almost" as good. More than 50% of the finecast products I have bought have been seriously and irreparably miscast, and while I have plenty of 25 year old metal and plastic models that are still serviceable I have finecast models which are barely a year old and are already seriously warped from environmental factors alone.

I'm guessing that's a heat issue. You'd have seen similar issues if you had utilized forgeworld...you can warp them with hot water, really. In practice, this mostly means watching the temperature your models are exposed to. Black cases(as mine are) in a hot car can rapidly pick up temperature, so a certain degree of care is required for them.

I'd guess that how much of a hassle this is depends largely on personal habits. Someone who likes to bring a few armies, keeping the unplayed ones in the car while they play a long game at the local game shop...yeah, that could a problem. For someone whose models basically live in the basement where they play, not really an issue.

Of course, if I'm being cynical, I'd say that GW really couldn't care less about your models lasting for 25+ years. In fact, they have a suspicious tendency to change army lists, etc to encourage the purchase of new models instead of people just using the old ones indefinitely.



On the 3d printing topic:

I actually have printed a handfull of them...but for most models, it's still cheaper for me to buy them. Reaper's big ol' kickstarter package was damned good on a per model basis, and I own a game shop, so anything from major wholesalers I can get at wholesale, so I can't really save money that way.

However, it's fantastic for things that do not exist. I find that while mini selection is great, model selection for other things commonly found in RPGs is less great. For instance, how many times have you been in a dungeon, and the flavor text, or even puzzles, have included pictures on the walls, tapestries, or other decorations? How many times have you seen these items for sale for use with the minis?

So...I've got a little side project of making my own. Got rougher tables and benches for the omnipresent taverns, classy tables and fireplaces for the nice places, treasure chests, altars, carts, crates, fences, signs, all the various little things that really help flesh out the look of the place.

I'd never use chocolate, though. I know *exactly* what my group would do with that the instant my back was turned. I use ABS plastic. That stuff is solid as hell, and won't melt 'till 300 degrees, so warpage issues are non-existent.


so what are the costs on 3d printing for models?

Depends how much plastic you burn. My Cube printer cost $1300, but that's a one time cost. A cartridge of plastic holds about .7 lbs, and is $42 when bought in quantity, plus shipping. A few cents worth of glue is also used.

I also own a printrbot kit, but I still have to build that. It looks to be much less of a commercial-ready product, but the plastic is a third the price, and the kit costs $300. The resolution likely won't be *as* good, but for applications where it's good enough, I'd definitely appreciate saving the cash.

Of course, you also tend to burn some plastic on mistakes and a little on support structures for overhangs and the like, but plastic minis tend to be fairly lightweight, so you get a pretty fair amount from a cartridge.

Video game models tend not to work well, though. In addition to the issues already mentioned, you can have fun issues like non-watertight models, one sided surfaces, and parts of the model that have either no or insufficient support for the real world...or they can be poorly balanced, depending on pose(if a posed model is even available). A guy with a supermassive sword stuck straight out in front of him or whatever may look badass in game, but in the real world, the model falls forward. There's a certain art to coming up with printable models, and a *lot* of models out there are not reasonably printable as is.

Grinner
2013-09-08, 09:05 PM
Depends how much plastic you burn. My Cube printer cost $1300, but that's a one time cost. A cartridge of plastic holds about .7 lbs, and is $42 when bought in quantity, plus shipping. A few cents worth of glue is also used.

Roughly how many models do you get out of one cartridge?

Solaris
2013-09-09, 02:47 AM
Interesting. I love finecast and detest metal.

It's heavy. So, it's difficult to transport and the glue never seems to stick. My old metal models fall apart all the time, even if I reglue them. They have bad balance, too and if they fall over, they can easily crush terrain pieces or smaller models. Then, the paint never seems to stick on them, they chip far too easily.

Finecast, on the other hand? Takes paint nicely, it's light and from the two dozen models I've bought so far, worst I had was a bent sniper rifle.

Soak the metal minis in a solution of water and dishwashing soap for eight-twelve hours beforehand, then rinse them off and maybe rub them down with an old toothbrush. GW minis came with a protective coating that, while serving to inhibit corrosion, also made them a right proper pain in the behind to paint and glue.
Oh, and prime the darned things. Use real primer. That should take care of pretty much every problem with the paint chipping off with sane use.

Komatik
2013-09-09, 03:37 AM
The big problem is that typically, the quality plastic minis(think, GWs boxed product) require injection molding, which require custom cut steel molds and fairly expensive hardware. So, it doesn't make sense unless you're engaging in some serious quantity.

Not to mention pretty prodigious amounts of electricity. And the molds themselves certainly aren't cheap.

3D printing feels like one of those things that's hyped to high heaven but the fans routinely ignore the present-day logistics of.

Psyren
2013-09-09, 08:29 AM
Our group uses cardstock stuff with plastic bases (e.g. the Bestiary Box (http://paizo.com/products/btpy8tj5)) and these work quite well. Until minis get cheaper - which will likely happen due to the 3D printer movement, once that starts becoming more cost-efficient - I may revisit traditional minis, but for now, cardstock is functional, easy on the eyes, and very cost-effective.

One thing 3D printers will really make interesting is the painting process. Color 3D printers are running close to $3000 right now, but as this comes down in price in the next 5-10 years I could see this being an especially interesting avenue for gaming.

Tyndmyr
2013-09-09, 10:16 AM
Roughly how many models do you get out of one cartridge?

Not a clue, actually. I've never sat down and printed a full cartridge of nothing but minis. I do know that printing a set of four barely dented the cartridge, but it just shows a status bar that's kind of accurate, it doesn't give me precise usage numbers.


Not to mention pretty prodigious amounts of electricity. And the molds themselves certainly aren't cheap.

3D printing feels like one of those things that's hyped to high heaven but the fans routinely ignore the present-day logistics of.

It's partly the media's fault here. Every time I've been interviewed, they always cut bits like where I show them six print jobs of the same model, each visibly better as I dealt with various issues. It's popular to portray it as "press button, receive item", but that does skim over lots of difficulty.

Electricity usage hasn't been a big factor for me, though. Even running in 24/7 doesn't seem to be a huge factor in the bill, certainly nothing like AC, anyway.



One thing 3D printers will really make interesting is the painting process. Color 3D printers are running close to $3000 right now, but as this comes down in price in the next 5-10 years I could see this being an especially interesting avenue for gaming.

Well, printing in a single color is a matter of changing what plastic is on the spindle. Printing in multiple colors takes multiple print heads, and unlike ink printers, they don't really mix well, so you need one head for each final color...and typically there are some limitations on how the colors are laid down. Vertical layers? No problem. Complex layering and fading...not so much.

Oddly enough, I've found that printed minis take sharpies remarkably well. Gotta print in a light color(likely white) so lighter sharpies don't have bleed issues, but you could just draw on the colors.

Ravens_cry
2013-09-09, 10:21 AM
Or paint them, like, oh, a miniature.:smalltongue:

Komatik
2013-09-09, 10:24 AM
It's partly the media's fault here. Every time I've been interviewed, they always cut bits like where I show them six print jobs of the same model, each visibly better as I dealt with various issues. It's popular to portray it as "press button, receive item", but that does skim over lots of difficulty.

Electricity usage hasn't been a big factor for me, though. Even running in 24/7 doesn't seem to be a huge factor in the bill, certainly nothing like AC, anyway.

Sorry, I should've been more clear. Was talking about the electricity use of injection molding, which is pretty high.

Tyndmyr
2013-09-09, 10:36 AM
Sorry, I should've been more clear. Was talking about the electricity use of injection molding, which is pretty high.

Oh, yeah. That's brutal. I got to play a little once with an eight head injection molder. Could do different colors at once and all kinds of crazy stuff. Also was almost the size of my civic. Definitely way out of my reach in terms of cost and space, and I'd imagine that's true for most others as well.

Ravens, that's what I actually do in practice. I learned the ol' GW way, in which drybrushing is everything, and find it pretty enjoyable in moderation. Painting an army of stuff exactly the same gets old for me, but painting individual models? Awesome.

Beleriphon
2013-09-09, 10:39 AM
Sorry, I should've been more clear. Was talking about the electricity use of injection molding, which is pretty high.

Yeah, given that one machine needs five heaters just for the resin base (from entrance to the injector to exiting the head), a motor for the screw, a motor for the screw press, a motor for the hydraulics and some more heaters/coolers for the water system. Some of those run at 600V or higher.

An injection molder is a good choice if you plan on making thousands of pieces that are all the same. Even small ones weigh a few tons though and they're really only practical for factories to use.

Grinner
2013-09-09, 10:42 AM
This thread has really got me thinking about fabrication technologies. I've been doing some research, and I found an article on Instructables about this material the author developed, called Oogoo. Apparently, if you mix silicone caulk ($3 to $5 per 10 oz. tube) with cornstarch and optionally linseed oil-based paints, it hardens into a strong resin in roughly two hours*.

If some molds were made from 3D-printed master copies, you could feasibly make all of the minis you'd ever need at minimal cost.

Additionally, it seems to me that trimmer line might also meet the needs for plastic feedstock? A quick Google shows that a number of 3D printing communities have already thought of that. Could it work?

*The actual time varies by humidity. Apparently, you should use less cornstarch in more humid environments.


Not a clue, actually. I've never sat down and printed a full cartridge of nothing but minis. I do know that printing a set of four barely dented the cartridge, but it just shows a status bar that's kind of accurate, it doesn't give me precise usage numbers.

Hmm....The stuff's still pretty expensive...and you've got to take pains to get it...

Chocolate, on the other hand...They practically give it away after Halloween...

Tyndmyr
2013-09-09, 10:52 AM
I've done light molding and stuff. Resins vary widely...some are very temperature sensitive. Some melt when exposed to aerosols, which is a nasty surprise when you try to prime them. It all depends on the specific mix. However...JB weld(quik version works fine for this application) is amazing. Make a mold of whatever you want to copy with green stuff(a flexible two part epoxy), spray it down with WD-40 so the mold won't stick to the finished product, pour in JB weld, wait. Works awesome, is stable as hell(feels like metal). I'd probably stay away from corn starch based epoxies on the basis of it being a food item. Insects and spoilage can be an issue in some cases. They tend to not mention that in those "make your own play-doh" bits.

You probably need a specific feed stock...either rods or pebbles, I imagine. Still, it's chocolate. It isn't THAT hard to reshape.

Beleriphon
2013-09-09, 11:05 AM
You probably need a specific feed stock...either rods or pebbles, I imagine. Still, it's chocolate. It isn't THAT hard to reshape.

Just melt it into a big bar and run into through a food grinder. You'll end up with what looks like ground beef shaped chocolate.

As for cornstarch based stuff, cornstarch doesn't spoil as such so much as go stale. And I've never had a problem with bugs getting into it even when I had ants in the apartment. Heck, you can even get corn starch based bioplastics, which I figure could be used in a 3D printer.

Tyndmyr
2013-09-09, 11:18 AM
I just recall the DIY play-doh turning quite nasty after a while.

I don't really bother with bioplastics, all my stuff is recyclable anyway, so the original origin doesn't seem that important to me. Not that miniatures are probably all the big in the scheme of recyclables anyway, but I suppose it's a good thing.

I kinda want to fab up a mini now, after all this talkin' bout it.

Beleriphon
2013-09-09, 11:52 AM
I just recall the DIY play-doh turning quite nasty after a while.p

It does, but that's more an issue with its other constituent parts (usually flour). Play-Doh in and of itself is made from food products (wheat flour, salt, water, mineral oil and boric acid). I expect homemade stuff is usually weird because of the ratios or the absence of the boric acid.

Bioplastics are neat work nicely. Plus you can make your own using potato starch and a pressure cooker. Its not quite commercial grade, but it does work and would need a bit of experimentation to really function for minis but if you can get it working then it might be cheaper in the long run than using commercially available sources.

Grinner
2013-09-09, 12:09 PM
Bioplastics are neat work nicely. Plus you can make your own using potato starch and a pressure cooker. Its not quite commercial grade, but it does work and would need a bit of experimentation to really function for minis but if you can get it working then it might be cheaper in the long run than using commercially available sources.

Science! is fun.

Psyren
2013-09-09, 12:58 PM
Well, printing in a single color is a matter of changing what plastic is on the spindle. Printing in multiple colors takes multiple print heads, and unlike ink printers, they don't really mix well, so you need one head for each final color...and typically there are some limitations on how the colors are laid down. Vertical layers? No problem. Complex layering and fading...not so much.

That's already being addressed actually - there are prototype color-mixing printers (http://www.techhive.com/article/2039703/how-does-the-world-s-first-full-color-3d-printer-work-we-ask-its-creators.html) being worked on out there, which function by mixing base colors on demand to create complex configurations - rather like a desktop printer does with ink. And if you think about it, it shouldn't be all that remarkable a concept - after all, laser printers work in a similar way, by superheating and blending stock colors of toner into vibrant combinations.

So I can see this technology taking off once it debuts, and is iterated on enough to become a little cheaper. Laser Printers were once out of reach of the common household or even small business too.

Tyndmyr
2013-09-09, 01:29 PM
Huh, that's kind of amazing. Yeah, this stuff is taking off at a crazy speed. A bit over a year ago, when I got my cube, $1300 was actually quite cheap. There really wasn't anything under a grand that wasn't sketchy as hell...but now, there's a whole mess of them. There's another version of the cube out, that does more types of plastic, costs the same price. I see nifty dev projects all the time.

I'm sure down the road, what I've got now will be like, the apple 2e of 3d printers, but hey, everything gets obsolete at some point. Might as well enjoy the ride, =)

elliott20
2013-09-09, 02:38 PM
The business answer:

1. shrinking market: tabletop gaming itself as a market is shrinking. We saw a huge boom in the early 2000s, followed up by MASSIVE expansion in the ensuing decade, followed by massive saturation of materials. But after 4E, the market has clearly begun to shrink as people started to exit the market. And since figurines tend to be driven by the games, with warhammer being one of the few games in town now, a lot of companies just don't have the means to survive. This also leads to the survivors to....

2. cost cutting: when you have shrinking margins, the first instinct in a lot of companies is to immediately cut costs. Hence why a lot of the guys that are still around are now moving to cheaper materials. This is their way of lowering costs per unit. You have to remember, in the 2000s, the tabletop gaming market was big enough that you can actually do fine tuned segmentation. (i.e. high end tabletop miniatures market, low end, etc)

3. lowered entry barrier threats: 3D printing, as you guys have pointed out, is becoming easier for people to have access to. Because of that, there are some pressures being placed on the miniature producers, who already are trying to cut costs by making cheaper products. So the only way the companies can now compete with people printing their own is by providing higher quality figurines, which runs against the cost cutting principle. Again, this is something only large scale producers can handle by having huge economies of scale.

4. substitution: there are very few instances where you absolutely need to buy figurines. i.e. playing warhammer requires the actual figurines, especially if you're playing in officially sanctioned tournaments. You don't have this problem with roleplaying games or other boardgames, where the figurines are really just nice to haves. As such, you can really use just about anything for figurines. My group used colored dice for our PCs, and generic 6-siders for mooks for years until I started buying lego minifigs again and then we used those. (Had to go back to dice again because good god they were distracted by the minifigs)

You put all of these together, and you have a pretty good idea as to why miniatures are dying. to be fair, it's not going away. But you're not going to see the huge boom we had.

Segev
2013-09-09, 03:32 PM
I wonder if making a transparent - like, acrylic block transparent - resin that a 3D printer could lay down would be practical. If so, imagine printing your model as a solid block, with the figurine inside it. You don't need to worry about unsupported structure in it at that point, and it's unlikely to warp or bend or break. And on the battlefield, they're one-inch squares that line up next to each other quite neatly.

nedz
2013-09-09, 03:37 PM
Well I have several hundred miniatures which I've amassed over several years. I was never interesting in the WotC ones because whilst I might want the odd monster I don't have, buying a random assortment blind was the opposite of what I wanted. I have all of the standard D&D type figures I need.

I did buy quite a few WD Rackham (http://rackhamminiatures.yolasite.com/) figures (http://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=image&fr=altavista&va=rackham+miniatures) a few years ago, because they were interesting. They have gone bust now though.

West Wind (http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/) are also very interesting.

I also bought a batch of Mithril (http://www.mithril.ie/) Orcs, when they were on offer.

Both Rackham and Mithril were/are at the expensive end, though that's also true of GW.

I haven't seen any interesting figures recently in the games shops I frequent, so I haven't bought any.

The industry tends to have booms and busts, like any other.

Grinner
2013-09-09, 03:49 PM
I wonder if making a transparent - like, acrylic block transparent - resin that a 3D printer could lay down would be practical. If so, imagine printing your model as a solid block, with the figurine inside it. You don't need to worry about unsupported structure in it at that point, and it's unlikely to warp or bend or break. And on the battlefield, they're one-inch squares that line up next to each other quite neatly.

I might worry about getting moving them around whilst they're engaged in melee, but that is a very cool idea.

Segev
2013-09-09, 04:04 PM
Maybe a pawn-head-shaped handle on top for easy gripping.

Aasimar
2013-09-09, 04:07 PM
The way I saw it, some RPGs that tried to incorporate miniatures into their games to some extent (d&d 4th edition, star wars saga) were disappointed by lackluster reception by gamers.

Particularly, we didn't like buying randomized packs, or at least, that was my experience from myself and my friends, and from what I saw online.

And that's one of the main ways to make miniature making really profitable.

Grinner
2013-09-09, 04:19 PM
The way I saw it, some RPGs that tried to incorporate miniatures into their games to some extent (d&d 4th edition, star wars saga) were disappointed by lackluster reception by gamers.

Particularly, we didn't like buying randomized packs, or at least, that was my experience from myself and my friends, and from what I saw online.

And that's one of the main ways to make miniature making really profitable.

I think they were advertising to the wrong crowd. If they had branded D&D 4e as a skirmish wargame (and had not called it D&D), I suspect the venture would have been more successful.


Maybe a pawn-head-shaped handle on top for easy gripping.

It'd also be kinda cool if you had cheap blanks available, for representing the z-axis. Or make them something like Legos (embedded magnets?) for modular dungeon building.

Tyndmyr
2013-09-09, 04:19 PM
I wonder if making a transparent - like, acrylic block transparent - resin that a 3D printer could lay down would be practical. If so, imagine printing your model as a solid block, with the figurine inside it. You don't need to worry about unsupported structure in it at that point, and it's unlikely to warp or bend or break. And on the battlefield, they're one-inch squares that line up next to each other quite neatly.

Wouldn't really need a 3d printer to fill a cube. Just drop your mini in the appropriate sized space, pour in a clear resin.

You will probably lose a little detail, because it's hard to have a perfectly clear material, but you should be able to pull this off smoothly enough for very serviceable minis.

Segev
2013-09-09, 04:24 PM
Would work with minis you already have from some other source, and may be worthwhile for its protective properties, but part of the thought is using it to make 3D printing more "home system" friendly. 3D printing has trouble with "overhangs" and the like, which minis are understandably full of. This removes the entire concept of an "overhang" in physical terms because the clear part is filling in the space underneath them.

But yeah, quality of the transparent material would be the most difficult thing to ensure.

Stray
2013-09-09, 04:47 PM
That would require printing the miniature and acrylic "shell" at the same time, and there are materials that are water soluble to make supports - it's already solved problem.

Tyndmyr
2013-09-09, 04:49 PM
Ah, I use tearaway supports, other systems involve using different materials for supports and what not. Also, I've found I can comfortably have a 45 degree overhang with no support at all. Results will vary by printer, etc, but overhangs are certainly possible. Sometimes, I get the best results rotating things so that the model is suspended in midair, with supports for everything. I use that frequently with large, warp-sensitive pieces.

Clear printable stuff seems to be a challenge. Even tiny bubbles or what not quickly gum up the works, so you'd need really consistent feed stock and very high tolerances. Probably possible, but another of those "in progress" areas. Would be very nice all round, though. I'd *love* to be able to just print clear windows in a vehicle model.

ellindsey
2013-09-09, 05:13 PM
Ah, I use tearaway supports, other systems involve using different materials for supports and what not. Also, I've found I can comfortably have a 45 degree overhang with no support at all. Results will vary by printer, etc, but overhangs are certainly possible. Sometimes, I get the best results rotating things so that the model is suspended in midair, with supports for everything. I use that frequently with large, warp-sensitive pieces.

Clear printable stuff seems to be a challenge. Even tiny bubbles or what not quickly gum up the works, so you'd need really consistent feed stock and very high tolerances. Probably possible, but another of those "in progress" areas. Would be very nice all round, though. I'd *love* to be able to just print clear windows in a vehicle model.

I suspect that even if you were using perfectly clear and consistent feedstock you'd have a hard time printing a crystal clear cube. Current 3D printer technology pretty much unavoidable leaves voids and bubbles in the material. At best you're going to get a frosted-glass effect.

I've had good luck printing with support when I need to make something with unavoidable overhangs. Usually I prefer to break the part into pieces and glue them together, but for making figurines I'll probably be using support material.

Remmirath
2013-09-09, 05:24 PM
I don't think they're dying, but I doubt I'd know. Maybe less people are using them in their games now than they used to. I really don't know; nearly all the games I've ever played in have used them, and continue to do so. There was only one game I've ever been in that didn't, and I found it suffered from some problems when in fights.

We (my family pools ours) have a very large amount of figures/miniatures, dating back from the seventies, but actually the majority of them have been acquired in more recent years.

Reaper is still going strong, as far as I can tell, and although the quality varies from sculptor to sculptor many of theirs are really good. I do hope they continue to do metal figures, because while the Bones can be useful and all, they're just not as satisfying in my opinion.
Iron Wind Metals (https://ironwindmetals.com/store/index.php) produces many figures that Ral Partha used to, and has their own lines as well. They update quite often as far as I can tell.
Dark Sword Miniatures (http://www.darkswordminiatures.com/) has a pretty wide variety at this point, and update pretty often also.
Thunderbolt Mountain (http://www.thunderboltmountain.com/) doesn't have particularly many, and I'm not sure how frequently they update, but damn are they awesome.

I'm sure there are others out there still too, but I'm fairly particular about my figure selection, so I mostly frequent the above places.

Tyndmyr
2013-09-09, 06:30 PM
I've had good luck printing with support when I need to make something with unavoidable overhangs. Usually I prefer to break the part into pieces and glue them together, but for making figurines I'll probably be using support material.

Entirely agreed on the frosted glass.

I've actually been thinking about going the other ways for minis...I get better fine resolution in the horizontal plane than the verticals, it seems, and there is a certain attractiveness to making modular minis, ala GW style. The ones I've done so far have all used support, and they've been alright, but I'm not against a certain degree of assembly.

Icewraith
2013-09-09, 07:43 PM
One thing I'd expect to see with new cheaper 3-d printers is an increase in accepted "medium" size for miniatures. The stock is comparatively inexpensive if you're willing to buy a printer, so by bumping model sizes up a bit you reduce resolution issues (especially in the z-axis - you're not dreaming, most printers don't do z quite as well as x and y).

Tvtyrant
2013-09-10, 12:40 PM
I buy those cheap fantasy chess sets and use the pieces from them. Wait until a popular fantasy movie comes out and someone will inevitably make LotR or Star Wars chess, monopoly, etc pieces.

Segev
2013-09-10, 01:56 PM
I buy those cheap fantasy chess sets and use the pieces from them. Wait until a popular fantasy movie comes out and someone will inevitably make LotR or Star Wars chess, monopoly, etc pieces.

Are they really cheaper than the minis? I mean, not that I think minis are inexpensive, but I'm surprised the "fantasy chess sets" et al would be less than exorbitant, themselves.

Tvtyrant
2013-09-10, 03:05 PM
Are they really cheaper than the minis? I mean, not that I think minis are inexpensive, but I'm surprised the "fantasy chess sets" et al would be less than exorbitant, themselves.

Depends on the set, and I didn't mean chess in particular so much as board games in general. LotR risk was pretty cheap at one point and gets you a lot of miniatures, my chess set was like $20 (it costs $40 new now) and got me some big and well designed figures (uncolored but nice.)

I ended up using those when I discovered that the price of lego figures was such that there was no way I could afford to run even a moderate battle with them.

Beleriphon
2013-09-10, 03:56 PM
I ended up using those when I discovered that the price of lego figures was such that there was no way I could afford to run even a moderate battle with them.

Check a thrift shop's toy section. There are often sets of Lego in there for less than $10.

EvilJames
2013-09-12, 04:35 PM
I like plastic models, but they are hard to come by.

Finecast snaps when dropped off a table, melts when left in the car, and the limbs / weapons bend in the carrying case and unlike metal can't be unbent without a risky boiling procedure. Also they are flexible, and though I haven't brought myself to paint one yet but I can't imagine the paint job wont flake off when it happens.

Reaper has not abandoned metal. There are metal minis set to release again in November (according to their preview page)
Bones are a decent for plastic. They do flex, but the paint doesn't chip off. The detail is a little shallow but if you are painting a horde of orcs then that's not too big of a deal.
Resin seems nice but I've not worked with it yet. I have some resin minis but I haven't had time to do anything with them yet. I know that resin prices can vary wildly.Some companies use a cheaper resin to make larger models less expensive. Some use expensive high quality resin because it can hold detail better than metal, that's usually more detail and to high a price for most gaming purposes though.

There are plenty of new miniature companies forming right now as well. I can assure you that miniatures are not dying and metal isn't going away.

Gnoman
2013-09-12, 05:46 PM
Check a thrift shop's toy section. There are often sets of Lego in there for less than $10.

Unfortunately, many of these (along with the lego-by-the-pound sellers on Ebay), were disposed of by people who scavanged the relatively expensive minifigures for sale or display. Not an issue if you like LEGO anyway, but it is not a reliable source of minifigs unless you can examine the package carefully (in the thrift shops around here, anything with small pieces has them shrink-wrapped together or sealed in a plastic bag to prevent pilferage, making close examination difficult.)

TheThan
2013-09-12, 07:25 PM
I think part of the problem is that they were trying to sell their miniatures like a Collectible card game. You know, random boosters.

The problem is that collectible card games (like Magic: the Gathering) do not make its money on single boosters of random cards. No they make their money by selling single cards and cards in bulk. When a new set comes out; people rush to the store drop a bucket of money on a box of cards and get a box filled with X amount of random boosters. When a new set is not being released people buy and sell individual cards and make money that way.

Miniatures basically don’t work the same way. We don’t need random pieces; we need 3 orcs, 2 hobgoblins and an Ogre for the encounter we planned for that evening. If I have to go and buy them individually to guarantee I’ll get them, that’s what I’ll do, I don’t want to spend my hard earned money on boosters and not get what I was needing or wanting.

So knowing this what they should have done is produced their minis in singles and like packages. Buy a box of ten storm troopers for say $25 and then turn around and by Grand Admiral Thrawn for a few more bucks and your set. With a franchise like starwars or DnD its not terribly hard to do.

Forrestfire
2013-09-12, 10:44 PM
The problem is that collectible card games (like Magic: the Gathering) do not make its money on single boosters of random cards. No they make their money by selling single cards and cards in bulk. When a new set comes out; people rush to the store drop a bucket of money on a box of cards and get a box filled with X amount of random boosters. When a new set is not being released people buy and sell individual cards and make money that way.


This is only tangentally related to the topic, but I feel the need to point out that this is a very bad example of, because most collectible card games, especially Magic: the Gathering, make a total of zero profit (or revenue, for that matter) off of single card sales. Wizards of the Coast only sells packs, pre-assembled decks, and occasionally special edition sets with specific cards. Any sale of singles is either a third-party that opened packs to sell them or a third party that bought cards off of another third party to sell them.

It's not just Magic, though. With Yu-Gi-Oh, Konami only sells packs, special edition tins with a single predetermined card and packs, preconstructed decks, and some special edition sets. Cardfight!! Vanguard sells packs and decks, and Pokemon cards are the same as all the others.