3.5 Weird DMPC, is this right?

[evisiron]

So I had to put together a few DMPCs in a Linear guild type set up for my players, by the time I got around to the druid, I was feeling lazy and went the quickest route.

It is a Gnome with the Feral Template and the Vow of Poverty, so I wouldn't need to worry about weapons or equipment. I also went with the "No wild shaping" variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) from the D20 SRD so I wouldn't need to stat up Wildshape modes, and this grants Monk AC and speed, including Wisdom to AC.

This ended up with the 11th level character having 36 AC. Have I got this right, or is some of this not meant to stack? It's 10 Druid with the Feral Template.

10 Basic
+2 Dex Mod
+1 Small size
+7 Natural armor (+6 from Feral template, +1 from VOP increasing existing NA by 1)
+7 armor AC from VOP
+1 Deflection from VOP
+6 to AC from Wisdom 22 due to Monk abilities from variant.
+2 AC from Monk abilities from variant.

This all stacks, right?

I want to be sure it's right before I put in front of players, because I know I'd be calling shenanigans with AC 36 if the DM couldn't back it up.
At least his itty bitty claws only deal 1d6+6 damage, and most of what he will be attacking is the Necromancers DR5/Bludgeoning skeletons, and I love them being annoyed by a weak but very hard to kill Feral Gnome! :smallbiggrin:

[Urpriest]

That all stacks. AC 36 isn't crazy high for level 11, a generic plate-wearing due will have 10 +1 (Dex) +8 (armor) +3 (enhancement) +3 (deflection) +3 (natural)=31, so you're just using some more resources and as such getting a bigger effect.

[tyckspoon]

Sounds right, and not all that out of line - a non-VoP character could get in that area fairly easily if they wanted to invest in AC, although conventional wisdom says that investing in damage works better, so they probably don't.

One of the things Monk and Vow of Poverty abilities are actually *good* for is making characters annoyingly hard to kill, so this result shouldn't be too surprising.

[Tvtyrant]

You should be able to get to AC 35 at level 6ish. Masterwork fullplate, Masterwork Kappa shield, Tarmak Warpaint. Add in your Feral template to get over 40, etc. AC is pretty easy to boost, it just doesn't give you that much.

[137beth]

One of the things Monk and Vow of Poverty abilities are actually *good* for is making characters annoyingly hard to kill, so this result shouldn't be too surprising.
Eh, teleportation items are still better:smallsmile:

[Firechanter]

That all stacks. AC 36 isn't crazy high for level 11, a generic plate-wearing due will have 10 +1 (Dex) +8 (armor) +3 (enhancement) +3 (deflection) +3 (natural)=31, so you're just using some more resources and as such getting a bigger effect.

Nowai, not permanently anyway. That kind of gear would eat 45K out of your 66K WBL (70%), which is a crazy investment into AC. You could get there with buffs (if your caster can buff his CL to 12, which isn't hard).
However, since we are talking about a character that does piddly damage, we can compare it to a sword&board Fighter investing 50% Wealth (still stupid) into AC:
10 + 8 + 1 Dex + 3 Enh + 2 Shield + 3 Enh + 2 Def + 1 Nat + 1 Insight = 33AC

So this is pretty much the most a regular character can get. He'll probably have a +2 Weapon (18K) and some 15K worth in other trinkets, like resistance, immunities, emergency switches.

On the other hand, that VoP Simple Druid gets crazy if you add in his buffs. For starters, Barkskin increases Nar Armour to +4 or even +5. I don't know if Druid has any non-core AC-buffing spells (and am too lazy to check), but a friendly Cleric could buff his Deflection armor to +3. Zoink, your AC has just reached 41 or 42.

(Actually, Barkskin is so good and saves such a ton of money that I have played Clerics who took the Plant domain for this spell only.)

[eggynack]

On the other hand, that VoP Simple Druid gets crazy if you add in his buffs. For starters, Barkskin increases Nar Armour to +4 or even +5. I don't know if Druid has any non-core AC-buffing spells (and am too lazy to check), but a friendly Cleric could buff his Deflection armor to +3. Zoink, your AC has just reached 41 or 42.

(Actually, Barkskin is so good and saves such a ton of money that I have played Clerics who took the Plant domain for this spell only.)
The big druid AC buff is (greater) luminous armor, which gives you an armor bonus that freely works in wild shape, and it's not actually armor so it stacks with a monk's belt. Presumably this character would just have it stack with his actual monk AC, but it works either way. The druid gets even better if he stops being simple, and starts taking on high AC wild shape forms (my preference lies with the desmodu hunting bat, though there might be something better by 11). High dexterity stacks with luminous armor too, because it has no max dex bonus.

[PersonMan]

Greater Luminous Armor would have to hit +9 or +10, I think, before it really got worth it. +7 from VoP and all that.

[Greenish]

Greater Luminous Armor would have to hit +9 or +10, I think, before it really got worth it. +7 from VoP and all that.Well, it also comes with the penalty on enemies' melee attacks.

[Urpriest]

Nowai, not permanently anyway. That kind of gear would eat 45K out of your 66K WBL (70%), which is a crazy investment into AC. You could get there with buffs (if your caster can buff his CL to 12, which isn't hard).

It's not that crazy an investment. Remember, BAB scales with level. There are three scaling bonuses to (non-shield wearer) AC: enhancement, natural, and deflection, and if you get them from items they all scale 1/3 CL of the item. So in order for them to keep up with BAB, you need all three at CL=Level. That's what the game expects you to have if you're keeping up with full BAB melee. It's not a particularly optimized way to spend your wealth, which is why a lot of the time you see people being advised to ignore AC. But it is the low-op default.

[GreenETC]

Everything checks out fine, now just find some good Druid Spells, like Bite of the X, and go to town on the party. It'd be better if he had Wildshape Forms, but I'd understand that could get a bit annoying to stat out fully.

[NeoPhoenix0]

This seems quite tame for the area of things you are useing. The one time I looked into using this sort of stuff I got an ECL 10 monk with 42-45 AC, can't remember the number or the exact prestige classes and abilities.
The real kicker was the 30-35 touch and flat-footed AC. I got banned from using a monk with VoP.:smallconfused: They're fine with mailman-esque sorcerers though.

Just be careful when calculating your flat-footed and touch AC's. You may also want to stat out your flat-footed touch AC just in case a ray or something gets the drop on him.

[Firechanter]

It's not that crazy an investment. Remember, BAB scales with level. [...]
It's not a particularly optimized way to spend your wealth, which is why a lot of the time you see people being advised to ignore AC.


Yeah, in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302057) the choir sings that - at least beyond the lowest levels - 50% for AC is "ridiculous" and even 33% is "a wee bit high".

BAB scales with level and AC doesn't - too true. The problem is that there are countless creatures and templates that add insane amounts to Strength, so Attack scales even faster than BAB implies - and there is simply no way to fully keep up with that development in the AC department (except maybe multiple stacking Defending weapons that don't hurt your actual Attack).

[Urpriest]

Yeah, in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=302057) the choir sings that - at least beyond the lowest levels - 50% for AC is "ridiculous" and even 33% is "a wee bit high".

BAB scales with level and AC doesn't - too true. The problem is that there are countless creatures and templates that add insane amounts to Strength, so Attack scales even faster than BAB implies - and there is simply no way to fully keep up with that development in the AC department (except maybe multiple stacking Defending weapons that don't hurt your actual Attack).

Sure. Again, I'm talking about the obvious, low-op thing to do. As usual, the low-op math doesn't actually work when monsters are taken into account.