Produce flame and beast claws?

[justiceforall]

Casting produce flame gives you a melee touch attack. Based on my understanding of the rules you can choose to punch someone (unarmed strike) and still deal the produce flame damage?

If I also cast Beast Claws and gave myself a claw attack, could you also use that to deliver the produce flame damage?

[TuggyNE]

The same rule that allows it for unarmed strikes would allow it for natural weapons.
Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Touch Attacks
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

However, I'm not sure it actually applies to produce flame.
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Flame in your palm

That doesn't look much like "Range: Touch / Target: X" to me.

[Crake]

However, I'm not sure it actually applies to produce flame.

That doesn't look much like "Range: Touch / Target: X" to me.

I'd be inclined to agree. The flame is in the palm of your hand, so clenching your hand into a fist would negate the point. Similarly, attacking with a claw doesn't really work the same either, because there would only be a small moment where the palm of the claw was in contact with the target of the attack, if any at all.

If the spell simply required a touch, like an inflict spell, then you could do it easily, however produce flame isn't a touch range spell, its a spell which gives you a touch (ranged or melee) attack for it's duration.

[justiceforall]

Yeah after I posted the query I noted that it had a range of 0ft, although I assumed that was just because it had a ranged and a touch component?

It's a bit of an odd spell.

[Andreaz]

There's no need to interpret the spell as in "flames in palm" or stuff like that. It's pretty simple:
Does it have a range of "Touch"? If so, you can hold the spell and later use it in conjunction with a natural attack or unarmed strike.


Produce Flame doesn't have a range of "Touch", so none of this applies.
HOWEVER, the spell does make touch attacks. It's one of its forms, and leads me to think they said the range is 0 just because the spell actually has 3 completely different applications. I'd allow delivering through an unarmed strike/natural attack.

[TuggyNE]

Yeah after I posted the query I noted that it had a range of 0ft, although I assumed that was just because it had a ranged and a touch component?

It has a range of 0 ft because it's not even slightly a touch spell; it's a spell that produces an effect at point-blank range that lets you make touch attacks. Compare minor creation on the one hand, and chill touch on the other.

That said, while RAW is abundantly clear here, it wouldn't break anything all that much to allow delivering the attack along with unarmed strike or natural weapon. It's a nice spell, but it's not that amazing.

[Fax Celestis]

It has a range of 0 ft because it's not even slightly a touch spell; it's a spell that produces an effect at point-blank range that lets you make touch attacks.

So...a personal spell?

Alternatively, chill touch lets you make multiple melee touch attacks off of one casting, much in the same way produce flame does, and it is Range: Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm).

IMO, they're just being inconsistent. Since the spell gives you the ability to make touch attacks, there's no reason you can't make it with a natural attack or unarmed strike. Any other ruling, frankly, ventures into "which part of your body do you unarmed strike him with", which is a dark and scary conversation place, fraught with horrors and slain catgirls.

[TuggyNE]

So...a personal spell?

It would be a personal spell, except that it creates the self-renewing flame, instead of enabling you to create flame in your palms. A subtle distinction.


Alternatively, chill touch lets you make multiple melee touch attacks off of one casting, much in the same way produce flame does, and it is Range: Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm).

Yes, chill touch unambiguously works fine for this.