Best ranged dps in pathfinder

[13ones]

I've been arguing with my friends for awhile now what has the best possible ranged dps out of any of the core stuff in pathfinder. I say a properly made ranger. They say a zen archer.

[TuggyNE]

Not sure this is really decidable; you could work out some complicated set of build criteria to try to figure out what has the most potential, but it would be either TO (and thus irrelevant to actual play) or else rather arbitrary in restrictions. In either case, it would be hard to be sure you'd really accounted for all possibilities.

[Baroncognito]

Just to be a contrarian, I'm going to say a properly built Divine Hunter Paladin against an evil target.

(not to be confused with a Divine Hunter Ranger, which is an evil archetype and only useful if you're in a John Waters based campaign.)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Paladin is only in the lead under specific circumstances a few times per day against a few creatures.

The best is probably a pistolero gunslinger abusing the hell out of alchemical cartrdges and hitting touch AC + Deadly Aim dual wielding. But I don't even want to get into it on the horribly imbalanced PF gun rules...

For best archer, it really depends. Zen Archer is probably the best at low levels; Sohei likely overtakes it at higher levels once he can flurry AND rapid shot and manyshot with a bow. Fighter might briefly eclipse both at the mid levels, he has less attacks per round than either monk, but gets better to hit and damage on each arrow.

Ranger is like Paladin. He falls behind the others a bit normally, but against his top favored enemy, he can possibly take the lead. Of course, Ranger can choose which enemies to use this against thanks to Instant Enemy and can do so as often as his 3rd-4th level slots (maybe a wand, too!) allow.

All in all, I don't think there's a major difference in dps between all those classes (except gunslinger), though. It's not like any of them look horribly weak next any of the other classes (except gunslinger).

[Keneth]

Clearly a gundolon.

Otherwise a paladin when he can smite.

Zen archer and ranger are more consistent though.

[Segev]

Clearly, the solution is to play in a game together where you make a Ranger and he makes a Zen Archer. Two members of a larger party, preferably. Rivals, they keep IC count of their kills (and try to make up scoring criteria for more impressive kills while downplaying their rival's). OOC, you actually keep track of the damage they deal. If the DM will tell you things like post-DR and -hardness damage, you should use that. Otherwise, just do your best, and also keep track of kills. That will help you at least judge whether one or the other did "real" damage to something.

[StreamOfTheSky]

A pair of archers is actually pretty good, if both pick up the Target of Opportunity teamwork feat. Basically means each gets an extra attack every round. Of course, using immediates means no ki point for an extra attack for the zen archer and no Instant Enemy for the Ranger...

[Ravens_cry]

Paladin is only in the lead under specific circumstances a few times per day against a few creatures.

I would correct that to most creatures fought in most campaigns, and taking the Oath of Vengeance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/oathbound-paladin/oath-of-vengeance) really buffs up your potential smites per day.

[Raven777]

I second not taking the Divine Hunter archetype on a Paladin. It's a trap. It replaces all the paladin's cool stuff (the immunity auras, for example) with stuff you are going to take as feats anyway and that your non archer allies do not need (Deadly aim, Precise Shot, etc). Plus, who needs to be able to LoH at range as a Standard Action at twice the daily uses cost when everyone knows it is best used on yourself as a Swift Action anyway? Instead, for more Smites per day and a more manageable Code, take the Oath of Vengeance. And never look back.

And wheter you are a Ranger or a Paladin, wether as an Animal Companion or Divine Bond, if the campaign environments are appropriate, go for something you can ride on. Mounted archery takes zero feat to be stupidly effective. From the moment you get a horse, it allows you to move all over the battlefield while full attacking at leasure, your mount can also do its own natural attacks, and while you spam arows like the top half of a tank, your mount gets to have fun with combat manoeuvers like Overrun or Bull Rush. And your Companion / Divine Bond gets its own feat as you earn levels.

And as a paladin, Saddle Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/saddle-surge), which made the last DM I showed it too go "... ... wait... what?!". Then again, as a Ranger, you have the ever so sweet Gravity Bow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gravity-bow).

[Ravens_cry]

And as a paladin, Saddle Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/saddle-surge), which made the last DM I showed it too go "... ... wait... what?!". Then again, as a Ranger, you have the ever so sweet Gravity Bow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gravity-bow).
Saddle Surge is just awesome, period, charger or ranged.
As a Paladin, see if wrangle a wand of Gravity Bow. Dangerously Curious gives you UMD as a class skill and Charisma is already important to paladins, so . . .

[Vortenger]

I've been arguing with my friends for awhile now what has the best possible ranged dps out of any of the core stuff in pathfinder. I say a properly made ranger. They say a zen archer.

emphasis mine.

[Ravens_cry]

emphasis mine.
Since Zen Archer isn't core, the question is a non-starter then . . .

[StreamOfTheSky]

I second not taking the Divine Hunter archetype on a Paladin. It's a trap. It replaces all the paladin's cool stuff (the immunity auras, for example) with stuff you are going to take as feats anyway and that your non archer allies do not need (Deadly aim, Precise Shot, etc). Plus, who needs to be able to LoH at range as a Standard Action at twice the daily uses cost when everyone knows it is best used on yourself as a Swift Action anyway? Instead, for more Smites per day and a more manageable Code, take the Oath of Vengeance. And never look back.

Yeah, I really should have mentioned that Divine Hunter is a horrible, horrible archetype. It's amazing for a 1-2 level dip if you were an archer looking to dip paladin, but level 3 onwards is the definition of fail. It doesn't even make you a better archer other than the saved feat. A normal paladin can just buff his bow instead of getting the mount anyway.
And there's a feat to do ranged LoH anyway.


Word of Healing

Using the same divine energy as your lay on hands ability, you can heal others at a distance.

Prerequisite: Lay on hands class feature.

Benefit: You may use your lay on hands to heal another creature at a range of 30 feet as a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You must be able to speak and have a free hand to use this ability. The target heals half the amount they would have healed if you had touched them, but gains the benefits of your mercies as normal.

It's half healing, but if you're blowing a standard to heal someone mid-combat, you probably are doing it more for the mercies to cure ailments anyway. And it doesn't cost 2 uses. Still not a good idea to do most of the time.


And as a paladin, Saddle Surge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/saddle-surge), which made the last DM I showed it too go "... ... wait... what?!". Then again, as a Ranger, you have the ever so sweet Gravity Bow (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gravity-bow).

Good find, I forgot about Saddle Surge. Yeah, that spell makes Paladin one of the better archers I guess, smite or not.

EDIT: And if this is core only, Fighter wins for best archer vs. Ranger and Paladin. No instant enemy, and smite evil is too limited. Ranger is still a contender for being the best mounted archer in core and getting IPS five whole levels early, but Fighter's sheer attack bonus edge largely nullifies that advantage.

[Ravens_cry]

It's half healing, but if you're blowing a standard to heal someone mid-combat, you probably are doing it more for the mercies to cure ailments anyway. And it doesn't cost 2 uses. Still not a good idea to do most of the time.

Maybe not, but to get someone up who is at negatives? It works.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, the main reason I brought it up was to make the Divine Hunter look even more crappy and pointless than it already appeared to be. :smallwink:

(That feat was printed *before* Divine Hunter, if it matters)

[Ravens_cry]

Well, the main reason I brought it up was to make the Divine Hunter look even more crappy and pointless than it already appeared to be. :smallwink:

(That feat was printed *before* Divine Hunter, if it matters)
Heh, as the Spanish say, El, Oh, El.:smalltongue:
But yes, if I was making a Paladin Archer, I would not go Divine Hunter. Vanilla with the right feats and stats works just dandy.
I like the archetype system, I do, but this one . . .just don't work so good.

[13ones]

By core I meant 1st part, Pizao material. None of the 3rd party stuff.

[Snowbluff]

Seconding Gundolon. If you do not have enough levels in Gunslinger Pistolero (Double Dex to damage) to cancel Misfire, Double Crossbow MWF Syntheticist might be better.

[Baroncognito]

I guess I hadn't read that Divine Hunter stuff closely. I also hadn't read the Paladin stuff closely. (I haven't really played a Paladin in pathfinder yet, just in 3.5) I assumed that smite evil was melee only and the perk of Divine Hunter was "Oh, you get to use it with ranged attacks."

[Ravens_cry]

By core I meant 1st part, Pizao material. None of the 3rd party stuff.
That's not its usual definition. I try not to be picky about details, but a discussion requires clarity of terms.

[Vortenger]

Thanks for the clarification, OP.

I can only second (third? fourth?) gun-dolon.

[bookguy]

How about a fighter?

[DementedFellow]

I thought Alchemist (bomber) was designed to do this on a somewhat reliable basis. Was I mistaken?

[mregecko]

How about a sorcerer with metamagic abuse?

Can pretty reliably get some crazy ranged DPS out of spells like Snow Ball or Battering Blast.

[Snowbluff]

How about a sorcerer with metamagic abuse?

Can pretty reliably get some crazy ranged DPS out of spells like Snow Ball or Battering Blast.
It would have to do quite a bit of damage. Pistolero can do up to 1000 damage/round at higher levels.

[mregecko]

It would have to do quite a bit of damage. Pistolero can do up to 1000 damage/round at higher levels.

Yeah, I'm definitely not super familiar with guns in PFS, mostly because I find them boring / awkward in a fantasy setting and choose to ignore them.

But yeah, you can do PFS mailmain builds approaching that, but not quite there.

[Snowbluff]

But yeah, you can do PFS mailmain builds approaching that, but not quite there.

I would like to see what you have. I love the Snowball spell. It's hilarious.

[avr]

A ranger with the guide archetype is pretty reliable & good ranged damage. No need to wait for 3rd-4th level spells before it come online, either. That said I'm not sure it comes close to a gundolon.

[13ones]

Not gunna lie, I've seen what a gunslinger can do. Every year the games club at my university holds a sort of tournament for pathfinder, and last year was the year of the gunslinger and the monk. One such build took a single level in gunslinger (mysterious stranger) and 19 in paladin. In the fourth round, in his perfect situation with a named bullet, smite evil, a crit and a slew of other buffs he one shot the mid boss.

[mregecko]

I would like to see what you have. I love the Snowball spell. It's hilarious.

Snowball is pretty awesome, but Battering Blast is honestly better for the mailman build.

The fact that the # of blasts is dependent on CL and uncapped is pretty sweet. You can get an effective CL of 30 without too many shenanigans, meaning 6 blasts.

Feats/Traits:
Mage's Tattoo (Evocation) : +1 CL
Spell Specialization (BBlast) : +2 CL
Bloatmage Initiate : +1 CL
Lore Seeker (Campaign Trait) : +1 CL to 3 spells
Magical Lineage trait
Empower
Maximize
Quicken
Intensify
Spell Perfection

With the +5 CL from traits/feats being doubled with Spell Perfection, a 20th level sorc has a 30th CL BBlast.

With some shenanigans, you might be able to get 7+ blasts (karma prayer beads, ioun stone, death knell, etc to boost CL).

Intensified Battering Blast is 7d6 * 6.

Take the half-orc bloodline for +1 damage / die (+42). Sadly can't take the draconic bloodline for force for another +1/d6, or the primal elemental one. :-(

Empowered, Maximized, Intensified (level 5 spell) = MAX(42d6 +42) + (42d6+42)*0.5 = 294 + 95 = 389 average.

Empowered, Maximized, Intensified, Quickened (level 8 spell) = 389 average

So 778 average damage (assuming my math is right, which it might not be).

Of course, this doesn't factor in critical misses or hits. Working out bonuses to-hit are left as an exercise to the reader :-P

There may be other optimizations I can't think of... But yeah, still not as strong as the guns apparently :-P BUT you are a T2 to boot!

EDIT: Also you get a boatload of bull-rush attempts if you want! With a CMB of 30[CL]+10[base casting stat]+(10*5)[# of blasts] = +90.... It's pretty much guaranteed they're going far, far away.

[grarrrg]

Take the half-orc bloodline for +1 damage / die (+42). Sadly can't take the draconic bloodline for force for another +1/d6, or the primal elemental one. :-(

Unless I missed it, couldn't you go Crossblooded and pick up Draconic?


Sorcerer/Wizard would of course be the best overall.

Assuming we're going with non-spellcaster:
Gunslingers can get crazy awesome damage.

Assuming we're going with no-guns, non-spellcaster:
Paladin/Ranger are probably the best situational damage dealers.

Fighter/Monk are good to go all day, everyday.

Of course, Multiclassing can be handy too. A Zen Archer 8/Ranger 12 is quite solid. Both give Req-less bonus feats.
Monk gets a lot of nice bonus feats as well, WIS for accuracy is handy, and nets 2 extra attacks on the Flurry.
Ranger gets a +6 Favored Enemy, and a couple castings of Instant Enemy to spread around the Favored-ness.

[mregecko]

Unless I missed it, couldn't you go Crossblooded and pick up Draconic?

Sorcerer/Wizard would of course be the best overall.


Draconic only applies to four-elemental damage... Since this is Force dmg, I couldn't figure out a way to make it work? There may be one that I'm totally missing.

[grarrrg]

Draconic only applies to four-elemental damage... Since this is Force dmg, I couldn't figure out a way to make it work? There may be one that I'm totally missing.

Ah, fair enough.
Still potentially worth it for a dedicated blaster though.