[PF/3.5] Help me build a Fighter/Mage/Rogue?

[Jhango]

Hey guys!


I'm trying to plan out a character for a future game, and I'm hoping you can help me out.

Really, I'm mostly wanting to build a Mage/Rogue character, but I'd rather my Base attack bonus not to suck like most builds I see, so I want to see what people can come up with.

All WotC 3.5 content & Pathfinder are ok.
Don't plan on magic items.

Just to recap...

As much Sneak attack as possible
As much Casting as possible
As much Base Attack Bonus as possible. (15+ preferred)

Thanks!

[NeoPhoenix0]

I'm making a list of potential prestige classes.

One question, arcane or divine casting?

On second thought, I'll just give you all of them and let you choose.

[gorfnab]

Sneak Attacking Spellcasters Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)

[NeoPhoenix0]

Sneak Attacking Spellcasters Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240)

Look at this handbook.

Here is my list of prestige classes to consider:

Arcane Trickster (DMG) advances any casting, but requires 3rd level arcane spell Pros: full casting, full sneak attack Cons: low BAB, 2d6 sneak attack prereq

The Black Flame Zealot (CD) advances half divine casting, 3/4 BAB, sneak attack every 3rd level

Daggerspell Mage (CA) 9/10 arcane casting advancement, 3/4 BAB, sneak attack every 3rd level

Daggerspell Shaper (CA) 9/10 divine casting advancement, 3/4 BAB, sneak attack every 3rd level, requires wild shape

Shadowbane Stalker (CA) 8/10 divine casting advancement, 3/4 BAB, sneak attack every 3rd level

Unseen Seer (CM) full arcane casting advancement, 3/4 BAB, sneak attack at level 1, 4, 7, and 10, 3/4 BAB

Scar Enforcer (Races of Destiny) half casting advancement, 3/4 BAB, Sneak attack every third level, half-elf prereq

To look at from Forgotten Realms, I haven't examined these.

Magelord (Lost Empires of Faerun)

Imaskari (Underdark)

Eye of Lloth (Drow of the Underdark)

[Eldest]

Frankly, I'd point you towards Factotum for this one. You can cast some spells, which are limited in quanity but fairly good on quality, you have decent attack and it can be boosted, and a lot of skills, sneakyness, and sneak attack.

[Randomguy]

1 Sneak Attack Variant fighter/2 Rogue (or spellthief if you prefer)/2 Wizard/8 Unseen Seer/5 Abjurant Champion/1 Spellsword/ 1 Dragon Slayer.

You have casting like a level 17 wizard (With CL 19 if you take spellthief levels and the Master Spellthief feat), BAB +16 and Sneak Attack +5d6, which isn't that great but by taking the ranger divination spell Hunter's Eye through Advanced Learning you can boost it by +5d6, or by +6d6 if you choose spellthief over rogue OR take the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and you can bump it up even higher by boosting your caster level some more.
Note that you can persist Hunter's Eye if you feel like taking the feats.

[Psyren]

Arcane Trickster (DMG) advances any casting, but requires 3rd level arcane spell Pros: full casting, full sneak attack Cons: low BAB, 2d6 sneak attack prereq

Isn't this 3.P, judging by your thread title? The PF Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-trickster) is much easier to get into and has much more powerful class features.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Isn't this 3.P, judging by your thread title? The PF Arcane Trickster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-trickster) is much easier to get into and has much more powerful class features.

Oh yeah, forgot that when I was compiling my list.

[Jhango]

Thoughts on Jade Phoenix Mage? (Sword Sage or 3 Feats?)

Also, thoughts on Sorc vs Wizard? Too dependent on too many stats?

I think I might be tilting towards more of a Fighter/Mage with some SA.
Unseen Seer seems like a Must have sofar.


Also, I threw together two Google docs.
One with where I'm currently sitting with this and one open to the public to add any ideas you might have. Made up 5 tabs in that one.

View Only
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiqG_2qNyV8YdDlMcHllUmlQajBLX0p1V0VORzFwN UE&usp=sharing

Can Edit
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiqG_2qNyV8YdGdVV1VHbWQ2Qi1wNXViV1FaMV96T VE&usp=sharing

[NeoPhoenix0]

For Wizard vs. Sorcerer.

The wizard is considered by most to be more powerful as it has a wider range of spells. Having Int based casting also helps get lots of skill points.

Your build is likely to have Multiple Attribute Dependency, not as much if your intent is to use sneak attack with rays or something. Sorcerers are good for this because Charisma is the best stat for x to y optimization. Look at this handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) for ways to reduce your stat dependency.

[Firebug]

To get sneak attack without using martial study(or partial base attack rule) you will probably end up losing 2 base attack. This is because you need one level in Spellthief(or Rogue) to get sneak attack and the class skills to get into Unseen Seer and Unseen Seer doesn't get a base attack increase at level 1. You really want Unseen Seer for the juicy Hunter's Eye** spell. You have to give up another 2 points of base attack to be wizard 3 (or 4) before getting into a prestige class. Since you can only lose 4 points of base attack before you lose your 4th iterative attack you have to have full base attack on all other prestige classes after Unseen Seer 4. You can only lose 3 caster levels before losing 9th level spells so after a level in Spellthief(or Rogue) you can only lose 2 caster levels. If you can't use the Draconomicon or the Book of Vile Darkness you lose those 2 to Fighter(or paladin) to qualify for Eldritch Knight (and 1 from Eldritch Knight itself). If you can use the BoVD or Draconomicon, or partial base attack variant rule, or the regional feat that gives you proficiency in all martial weapons, it becomes much easier.

A bland option, though effective and the least complicated, is: Spellthief 1(or Rogue 1)/ Wizard 3/ (Sneak Attack) Fighter 1/ Unseen Seer 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 1/ Eldritch Knight 5. It gets the job done. You end up with Proficiency with all Simple/Martial Weapons, All armor and Shields (including Tower), Base attack of 16 at 20, 17th Caster Level* for Wizard (so 9th level spells), and 3(4)d6 sneak attack before you persist Hunter's Eye**. +11 Fortitude, +4 Reflex, +16 Will saves from class levels at 20. The ability to swift cast Abjurations up to level 3, +5 AC to any abjuration that grants shield or armor bonus to AC, ignore 10% of arcane spell failure***. You can also steal any spell(up to 9ths with Master Spellthief) the target knows, but not spell effects. Also you have Trapfinding so you can search for traps over DC 20. If you chose the Trickster Spellthief Variant you can lose Trapfinding to gain the ability to use spell completion items from the bard list (cure wounds line I am looking at you) without ranks in the Use Magic Device skill, though you delay when you get into the Unseen Seer(until 14) prestige class because hide is no longer a class skill for any of your classes.

Only one feat is required: Combat Casting, but Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Practiced Spellcaster and Master Spellthief(if you went spellthief) are all almost required. You also need at least a 17 starting int (or human starting 15) to get the skill points needed to enter Unseen Seer at 6. This is because it has Hide/Search/Spot at 8s, which are cross-class for the fighter. If you go Elf Wizard 3 substitution at level 5 (Fighter at 4 or sooner) you can get by with a 15 Int, because Search is then a class skill for Wizard. If you then choose to go Gray Elf you can get by with a preracial Int as low as 13.

You probably also want to stagger out your last 2 levels of Unseen Seer if you want to spend more skill points on rogue type stuff.

If you can use the Draconomicon (or Book of Vile Darkness, both are 3.0) you can go Spellthief 1/ Wizard 4/ Unseen Seer 4/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 5/ Abjurant Champion 5 You end up with the same weapon and armor proficiency as the first option. Same Base attack and Caster Level, and we go up to ignore 20% of arcane spell failure. +9 Fort, +4 Ref, +20(22) Will saves. You still have swift cast Abjurations up to level 3 and +5 AC from Abjurant Armor. You still have the same spell stealing ability, but you drop down to 3d6 sneak attack. You still have Trapfinding and you gain Channel Spell 3/day. You are immune to Fear and grant allies in 10 feet a +4 morale bonus against fear affects. You also do 1 more weapon damage to dragons.

Thrall of Demogorgon would instead give +1 Natural armor (doesn't stack with spells) and a Hypnosis with a DC based on your Thrall levels. At the cost of the fear immunity, damage to dragons and a -2(4) to will saves. Instead of Iron Will and Dodge you would require Willing Deformity and Thrall to Demon.

However, feats are very tight for this. You have 3 required feats (Dodge, Iron Will, Combat Casting) for prestige classes and with Extend and Persistent Spell (one of which can be taken with Spellsword 2), Master Spellthief and Practiced Spellcaster (Spellthief) you have only 1 feat left. Which is likely going to be Practiced Spellcaster(Wizard). Being Elf or Human helps because of the racial bonus feats**(see Polymorph Any Object), and the Elf Wizard substitution levels from Races of the Wild are nice.

If your DM futher allows you to use the partial base attack bonus rule, you can slim down to: Spellthief 1/ Wizard 3/ Rogue 1/ Unseen Seer 8/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5This gets you 2d6 more sneak attack than option 2 and a lot more skill points. You do lose Channel Spell and are down to only ignoring 10% of arcane spell failure. +8 Fort, +6 Ref, +19(21) Will. The main advantage of this build is that you get permanent Nondetection from Unseen Seer. With a 24 caster level the detector has to beat a DC of 39 to even tell if your gear is magical. Or your alignment. You also gain all 3 Advanced Learning from Unseen Seer, and gain Divination spellpower +2*

If you use the Militia Regional Feat (players guide to faerun) for proficiency in all martial weapons you could put together a Spellthief 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer 5(more)/Eldritch Knight 2 for 16 Base Attack, 18th caster level (9th level spells), 4d6 sneak attack (pre-Hunter's eye/Polymorph Any Object). The issue is you still need a high Intelligence for all the skill points needed. Militia would also make any build using Eldritch Knight easier to get into, as in not needing Thrall of Demogorgon or a level in Fighter. However, without either of those two, getting Spellsword won't happen. Also using Militia you could go option 1, but Spellthief 1/ Wizard 4/ Unseen Seer 7/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Eldritch Knight 3. Same sneak attack, BA(with partial rules), +1 Wizard caster level (same with Master Spellthief/Practiced Casters though) and earlier access to 9th level spells (at 19 instead of 20), but you gain Nondetection and an extra Advanced learning at the expense of a feat and armor proficiencies.

*Caster Level 17thCaster level is actually 16 for all wizard spells and 18 for divinations, and caster level 1 for Spellthief Spells. If you take Master Spellthief and Practiced Spellcaster(Spellthief) you would have 21 for wizard and 23 for Divinations. If you managed another Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) it jumps up to 25 and 27 at level 20.
With Option 3 you go down to 15 base caster level for Wizard spells and 19 for Divinations. With Master Spellthief and Practiced Caster(Spellthief) it adjusts to 20/24. With Practiced Spellcaster(Wizard) as well you get to 24/28. This is without gear of course, or using consumables/other spells to increase caster level.**Persistent Hunter's Eye, and Polymorph Any ObjectHunter's Eye is a Ranger 2 Divination spell from the Player's handbook 2. It gives you 1d6 sneak attack per 3 caster levels and lasts for 1 round. Since it is a divination spell we pick it up with Level 2 Unseen Seer Advanced Learning. Without Master Spellthief and Practiced Spellcaster x2 you have a caster level of 18 for Divinations, so 6d6 extra sneak attack damage. With all three of those feats it goes to 9d6. And with Persistent Spell it lasts all day.

Polymorph Any Object: into a Kelvezu Demon from Monster Manual 2. 12 HD 21 Str, 31 Dex, 16 Con, 17 Int, 16 Wis, 16 Cha. 15 natural armor, and +8d6 Sneak attack damage with melee attacks only, Poison(Injury Fort DC 19 1d6 con/1d6 con, the DC is probably based on HD/level so its probably higher), +8 Racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently. Probably worth it when you can manage it. I'd recommend weapon finesse with a 31 dex. Pretty importantly it looks completely humanoid (if a bit short 5', and red skinned). If you were base race Elf you need to be careful not to retrain your racial weapon bonus feats otherwise you lose them when you polymorph yourself. And often overlooked is that you also lose them when you alter self yourself. You also do not gain the fly speed because its not based on physical features.***Arcane Spell failureGithcraft Mithril Full Plate (11,100 gp) is 20% spell failure and has its enchantments free for whatever you feel like. Armor 8, max Dex of 3, and a -3 for the armor check penalty. Weighs 25 lbs and is medium armor. Githcraft is from DMG2 page 276. It reduces Arcane Spell Failure by 5%, and gives the wearer a +1 bonus to concentration checks for 600 gp. I prefer it over Elvencraft in the same book because Elvencraft gives a bonus to Bluff (but not feint) and reduces the HP and Hardness of the armor as well.
If you add the Twilight Enchantment +1 it'll be 15,100 gp with no other enchants and it drops down to 10% spell failure.
If you have a higher Dex, or want to stay in light armor: Githcraft Mithril Breastplate has 10% Arcane Spell failure, armor 5, max dex of 5, armor check penalty of -1. Weighs 15 lbs and is light armor, so no speed penalty.
Granted you can probably afford to persist expeditious retreat and/or fly at 20 anyway.

All three of these builds have Abjurant Champion 5 so why not use mage armor/greater mage armor? Well Mage Armor is a conjuration not an abjuration so it does not get the Abjurant Armor bonus. Even though the description of Abjurant Armor references Mage armor...
And besides, who wants to look like a caster and get killed first in an ambush. Surely its better to look like a 'dumb fighter' and get webbed or disarmed or something. Bonus points if you can convince your DM that wearing a tower shield on your back doesn't give you Arcane Spell failure or armor check penalty, but still grants cover in an ambush from behind.

TLDR: Option 3: Base Attack 16, 9th level spells, caster level 24/28, 22d6 sneak attack damage, at-will poison, 15 natural armor. Permanent Nondetection DC 39, lots of skills, 0% arcane spell failure full plate, swift abjurations with +5 bonus to AC. Steal Spells. Trapfinding. Immune to Fear. Stellar AC and Will save, decent Ref, lowish fort. d6 average HD per level. 4+Int average skill points per level.

[Firebug]

I didn't have Draconomicon, but looking at the Dragonslayer it pretty much replaces Thrall of Demogorgon in pretty much every respect. Easier to get into, better feats that are prerequisites, better saves, better features. Also grants Martial Weapons and all Armor like Thrall does. Essentially, I am going to replace Thrall with Dragonslayer in my previous post. Dragonslayer also plays a LOT nicer with non-evil allies. Being a Thrall to a demon (or evil in general) is usually hard to pull off and not have a target on your back.

It is still 3.0 material, not 3.5 however. Unless someone can point me to where it was updated.

[Jhango]

I've never had any issues with using content from BoVD or Dragonomicon before. (Are they Really 3.0?)

I'm liking the
Spellthief 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Unseen Seer 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer 5(more)/Eldritch Knight 2

How about Sage Bloodline for Sorcerer for INT based casting?


Also any thoughts on Jade Phoenix Mage?
Its Better than Eldritch Knight IMO.

I really like many of the Shadow Hand maneuvers, not to mention the Assassin's stance for +2D6 Sneak attack, so getting those as prerequisites doesn't bother me if it can be worked in.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Go for int based sorcerer if you prefer spontaneous casting and want to double as a skill monkey (personally I prefer sorcerer to wizard). Charisma is a big winner for MAD reduction and is awesome for gishes, but if you don't intend to be a front line warrior it becomes less importanr.

Yes, Jade Pheonix Mage is probably better than eldritch knight. Even pathfinder eldritch knight is a bad class overall. You will want to carefully consider how you want to enter jade pheonix mage. entering by feats will let you keep more caster levels but make you less of a martial adept. Entering by a martial base class will make you far better at using you maneuvers, but you will lose caster levels. when making the choice consider is you character a sorcerer with martial maneuvers or a martial character with spellcasting. Taking the middle ground will net you some extra versatility, but you lose power on both sides.

Edit: Book of Vile darkness is indeed 3.0, but it was released shortly before the shift to 3.5 so they were able to anticipate many of the changes.

Draconomicon was released november 2003, several months after 3.5, it is a 3.5 book.

[Firebug]

I usually judge whether a book is 3.0 or 3.5 by what it says just after the title page.

If it says "This product uses updated material from the v.3.5 edition" I call it 3.5. If it doesn't mention 3.5, I consider it 3.0.

Every single DM I have played with has not allowed any dragon magazine material or Tome of Battle. Its always been 3.0 + class splats only (Defenders of the Faith, Tome and Blood, Song and Silence, etc) or 3.5 + completes only (Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, etc), and usually show me the hard copy of the book if you want to use anything. No DM has ever allowed flaws, or retraining, or BoED/BoVD. All treasure was DMG 1 only random tables.

Strangely the game I am currently in is 3.5, but only allows Defenders of the Faith, Tome and Blood, Song and Silence, Sword and Fist, and Masters of the Wild. Its a little strange using 3.5 core material and 3.0 only extra books. And that is the game in which I get to play my rogue/wizard. Rogue 1/ Wizard 5 / Assassin 1/ Arcane Trickster 1. It sucks not having Unseen Seer. And Spellthief. And everything this thread is about. Party is a Beatstick Cleric, a Barbarian and Me. I had to fill the traps/skills role, and I wanted to play a wizard so... lucky me. High starting stats game though, 4d6b3 then add 2 to every stat, can start past 18.

[Rebel7284]

You can do something like wizard 4/swordsage 1/jade phoenix mage 10/unseen seer 2/spelldancer 2/x1 not in that order.
4 wasted feats on spelldancer prereqs. Arcane Disciple [war], arcane strike.