V saves the day?! (anti-speculation)

[AKA_Bait]

I've seen quite a bit of speculation as to what role V can play in the ongoing battle, ranging from V returns from the underworld and personally wipes the floor with Tarquin's army to V returns but refuses to do anything for fear of the collateral consequences. All of these suggestions, however, have the same initial premise which is troubling me: that V has the ability to be involved in the battle at all, even if s/he is returned from the infernal living room during its duration.

Specifically, two things trouble me:

(1) Does V even know that the party is under attack? Sabine broke the blood plasma TV before Tarquin ordered everyone killed. If the IFCC doesn't tell hir, then I don't see how s/he will know to hot foot it into battle if returned to hir body.

(2) How would V make it onto the battlefield any time soon regardless? Hir body is presumably still trapped in the tunnel almost directly below the rift. V couldn't get out of the tunnel directly to warn Roy and had to resort to attempting to knock on the wall. How, until s/he has prepared new spells in a day, will s/he be getting out of hir current under-rift tomb to do anything at all?

[Bovine Colonel]

I've seen quite a bit of speculation as to what role V can play in the ongoing battle, ranging from V returns from the underworld and personally wipes the floor with Tarquin's army to V returns but refuses to do anything for fear of the collateral consequences. All of these suggestions, however, have the same initial premise which is troubling me: that V has the ability to be involved in the battle at all, even if s/he is returned from the infernal living room during its duration.

Specifically, two things trouble me:

(1) Does V even know that the party is under attack? Sabine broke the blood plasma TV before Tarquin ordered everyone killed. If the IFCC doesn't tell hir, then I don't see how s/he will know to hot foot it into battle if returned to hir body.

(2) How would V make it onto the battlefield any time soon regardless? Hir body is presumably still trapped in the tunnel almost directly below the rift. V couldn't get out of the tunnel directly to warn Roy and had to resort to attempting to knock on the wall. How, until s/he has prepared new spells in a day, will s/he be getting out of hir current under-rift tomb to do anything at all?

(1) A massive battle involving an army is not hard to spot.

(2) I'd be surprised if the tunnel was still intact after the explosion. My guess is that it's collapsed and V just has to dig hir way out.

[AKA_Bait]

(1) A massive battle involving an army is not hard to spot.

(2) I'd be surprised if the tunnel was still intact after the explosion. My guess is that it's collapsed and V just has to dig hir way out.

(1) Even if you are buried alive?

(2) If you mean dig hir way out through sand, I'm not at all sure I agree. It seems to me that the brown stuff underneath the rift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) is the intact floor of the chamber (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0898.html). If the tunnel collapsed, it seems like it would be rubble, i.e. stone, not simply sand. Not really something V could dig through with hir bare hands.

Even if it is just sand, why do we expect V to be able to dig hir way through several feet of sand quickly anyway? You know, as opposed to drowning in it.

[Kiraxa]

(1) Even if you are buried alive?

(2) If you mean dig hir way out through sand, I'm not at all sure I agree. It seems to me that the brown stuff underneath the rift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html) is the intact floor of the chamber (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0898.html). If the tunnel collapsed, it seems like it would be rubble, i.e. stone, not simply sand. Not really something V could dig through with hir bare hands.

Even if it is just sand, why do we expect V to be able to dig hir way through several feet of sand quickly anyway? You know, as opposed to drowning in it.
Lets see what one of V's favored spells says about her situation...

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.
Huh. 10 foot cube. Looks like makeshift passwall to me!

[zimmerwald1915]

(1) Even if you are buried alive?
Yes. In this case, V's trapped in a chamber that was - and is, if it is still intact - designed to direct any noise downward to her position. Even if the architecture didn't make it easy, the clamor of battle, and especially the pounding of a couple hundred mook feet above her head, seems like the kind of thing she could easily hear.

[AKA_Bait]

Huh. 10 foot cube. Looks like makeshift passwall to me!

If V has disintegrate prepared, why didn't s/he use it to get out of the tunnel earlier?

Frankly, I'm also thinking that spell isn't quite as favored since hir failure against Xykon with the soul splices either. Note that s/he does not attempt to use it at all in her fight against Zz, casting buffs and potentially non-lethal spells (hold person, prismatic spray) instead. This is even before V realizes Zz has crazy high SR.


Yes. In this case, V's trapped in a chamber that was - and is, if it is still intact - designed to direct any noise downward to her position. Even if the architecture didn't make it easy, the clamor of battle, and especially the pounding of a couple hundred mook feet above her head, seems like the kind of thing she could easily hear.

I was referring to the alternate scenario proposed that the tunnel has collapsed and V is buried in sand. I agree that if the tunnel is intact, V can probably hear what's going on, but not necessarily be able to do anything about it. Another lesson in power?

[zimmerwald1915]

If V has disintegrate prepared, why didn't s/he use it to get out of the tunnel earlier?
She didn't want to risk damaging the Gate?


Note that s/he does not attempt to use it at all in her fight against Zz, casting buffs and potentially non-lethal spells (hold person, prismatic spray) instead. This is even before V realizes Zz has crazy high SR.
Prismatic spray is "potentially non-lethal"? That's being very generous, considering that even the "non-lethal" options of "insanity" and "being sent to another plane" have a good chance of hurting the target.


I was referring to the alternate scenario proposed that the tunnel has collapsed and V is buried in sand. I agree that if the tunnel is intact, V can probably hear what's going on, but not necessarily be able to do anything about it. Another lesson in power?
I don't consider V being buried (as opposed to, say, being buried in an air pocket under loose pieces of masonry) in sand a likely scenario, because it means death by asphyxiation within minutes and no possibility of spellcasting (no verbal components, no somatic components). The Directors should want to preserve one of their few remaining pawns. Blackwing, on the other hand...

In any case, even if V were buried in sand, she should still be able to hear the tramping of the army above her. Earth conducts sound rather well.

Also, being impotently trapped and only able to observe the situation would not be "another" lesson in anything. It would be a variation on the same thing V's been up to since strip 897.

[AKA_Bait]

She didn't want to risk damaging the Gate?

Could have used it at any of the points walking down the hallway or in the hallway outside of the room with the gate.



Prismatic spray is "potentially non-lethal"? That's being very generous, considering that even the "non-lethal" options of "insanity" and "being sent to another plane" have a good chance of hurting the target.

Crazy, a rock, or on the elemental plane of ranch dressing are still better than dead.


I don't consider V being buried (as opposed to, say, being buried in an air pocket under loose pieces of masonry) in sand a likely scenario, because it means death by asphyxiation within minutes and no possibility of spellcasting (no verbal components, no somatic components). The Directors should want to preserve one of their few remaining pawns. Blackwing, on the other hand...

I don't think it's likely either, if only for narrative reasons. As noted, I was responding to the tunnel collapse and dig a way out suggestion.



In any case, even if V were buried in sand, she should still be able to hear the tramping of the army above her. Earth conducts sound rather well.

Yes, but the tramping doesn't mean there is a battle involving the OotS. V did see the army arrive and as far as s/he knows Tarquin has only acted against Nale (an enemy of the order). Popping unexpectedly into their midst somehow (I still got nothing as to how) might even be a bad idea if there is a chance they have itchy trigger fingers.


Also, being impotently trapped and only able to observe the situation would not be "another" lesson in anything. It would be a variation on the same thing V's been up to since strip 897.

Ok, continuation of the same lesson then.

[zimmerwald1915]

Crazy, a rock, or on the elemental plane of ranch dressing are still better than dead.
Crazy I'll grant you (I was sure there was something on the confusion table about self-harm, but apparently not), but being petrified isn't really better than being dead, and being sent to, say, the Positive Energy Plane isn't really better either. Even the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing is apparently populated by evil Sauce Dragons.


Yes, but the tramping doesn't mean there is a battle involving the OotS. V did see the army arrive and as far as s/he knows Tarquin has only acted against Nale (an enemy of the order). Popping unexpectedly into their midst somehow (I still got nothing as to how) might even be a bad idea if there is a chance they have itchy trigger fingers.
V did get to see the army before Sabine smashed the HDTV, and now that Nale is dead, who or what is the army's likely target? The Rift and the Order. Even if V doesn't arrive at or trust this surmise, and wants to know precisely what the army's doing, Vaarsuvius' enhanced scrying on or sending to Roy should tell her.

[AKA_Bait]

being petrified isn't really better than being dead,

Sure it is. Just ask Haley.


and being sent to, say, the Positive Energy Plane isn't really better either.

Yeah, but the odds are still better for not killing someone with plane shifting than disintegrate. Still, my main point was that V didn't use it, at all, at one point in favor of hold person and several times in favor of counter spelling.


V did get to see the army before Sabine smashed the HDTV, and now that Nale is dead, who or what is the army's likely target? The Rift and the Order.

Why assume that? At least, the Order part?


Even if V doesn't arrive at or trust this surmise, and wants to know precisely what the army's doing, Vaarsuvius' enhanced scrying on or sending to Roy should tell her.

Why would V have either of these prepared on a day expected to involve combat situations? Also, if sending was prepared, why not have used it to contact the party earlier when lost in the tunnel?

[137beth]

being petrified isn't really better than being dead

Sure it is. Just ask Haley.

No it isn't. Just ask Roy.
EDIT: Or the Oracle.

[Zerter]

There is a good chance V is both close to the battle and can acces the battle easily. Given that Roy and Durkon seem capable of handling the soldiers on their own and they are still to be joined by Elan and Haley, it is also not unreasonable to assume there will be a window in which V can join the battle. Not saying it will neccesarily happen, but it is not unreasonable if she would save the day.

[WindStruck]

:vaarsuvius: Bigby's Conveniently Prepared Sand-digging Hand.

[TRH]

Honestly, V hits the sweet spot where she isn't needed to help with the mooks (so long as Belkar stays out of the line of fire and Roy doesn't push his luck, Durkon should be able to tough it out against all of them with his DR), but isn't strong enough to beat Tarquin or his friends. I don't see the point in her showing up, although with the Order fresh out of transportation options, the odds of their leaving the desert without her are a little slim at this point. I'm calling one more unexpected game-changer at this point, probably infighting among Team Tarquin. But V won't help much, I don't think.

[martianmister]

but being petrified isn't really better than being dead

Sure it is. Just ask your avatar.

[zimmerwald1915]

Sure it is. Just ask your avatar.
Bad analogy. Petrification in Equestria is actually a fate worse than death, because you're aware of your surroundings throughout. Petrification in OOTS, as Haley and Celia show, doesn't work like that. Though it might also be a fate worse than death, because Haley didn't go to the Chaotic Good afterlife while she was petrified.

[Anarion]

V did get to see the army before Sabine smashed the HDTV, and now that Nale is dead, who or what is the army's likely target? The Rift and the Order. Even if V doesn't arrive at or trust this surmise, and wants to know precisely what the army's doing, Vaarsuvius' enhanced scrying on or sending to Roy should tell her.

This is likely the main point. Whether's V arrival is timely or not is questionble since we can't be 100% sure how much time has passed in-universe at this point.

But V saw the army because it was present prior to Nale's execution.

As to getting there and knowing what is going on, there are a variety of conjectures. Logical discussion about what spells V does or does not have prepared is one of those futile discussions though. If V has the right spells prepared, V can get out quickly already knowing what is going on. If V does not have the right spells prepared, V will be stalled and arrive too late or in a poor position to act. What determines V's prepared spells is what kind of story The Giant wants to tell. One could easily justify no Sending because it's an expected combat day and why waste the slot? One could easily justify a sending because it's a generally useful spell and V always wants to have one ready or may even have a scroll just in case. Similarly, one could assume that V has a spell that allows for digging because ancient ruins often have collapsing tunnel traps and the like, and one could surmise V does not have such a spell because V hasn't been shown using one before.

[Ninja]

Hello. Friendly reminder that V's gender is unlikely to ever be revealed so you should just make up your mind and refer to her according to what you believe her gender to be, instead of using "s/he","hir","zir" and other words that are ugly and break up a post's flow. That's all.

P.S: If V had sending, she would've tried using it to stop Roy from destroying the Gate.

[TRH]

P.S: If V had sending, she would've tried using it to stop Roy from destroying the Gate.

Not with a ten minute casting time, she wouldn't.

[martianmister]

Bad analogy. Petrification in Equestria is actually a fate worse than death, because you're aware of your surroundings throughout.

Huh? Twilight doesn't seem to remember anything.

[zimmerwald1915]

Huh? Twilight doesn't seem to remember anything.
Discord tells us what petrification's like in Keep Calm and Flutter On and even in an episode that is full of ponies calling him out on the things he pulls, nopony ever challenges him on this point.

[AKA_Bait]

Hello. Friendly reminder that V's gender is unlikely to ever be revealed so you should just make up your mind and refer to her according to what you believe her gender to be, instead of using "s/he","hir","zir" and other words that are ugly and break up a post's flow. That's all.

Actually, I keep using the gender neutral singular pronouns precisely because The Giant has purposefully kept V's gender undefined. If not picking a side is good enough for the author, it's good enough for me.

[Amphiox]

:vaarsuvius: Bigby's Conveniently Prepared Sand-digging Hand.

:vaarsuvius: Evan's Spaded Tentacles of Voluntary Excavation....