Giant's Stance: Grotesquely underpowered?

[Segev]

This is a 5th level Stance in the Stone Dragon martial discipline. It lets you deal damage as if you were one size category larger (with no other bonuses or penalties associated with being the larger size category), and only works as long as you don't more more than 5 ft. (Presumably, you can re-assert it as a swift action after you move, though.)

Considering that Enlarge Person will get you every benefit of being one size category larger (as well as the drawbacks, but they're relatively few), and is a 1st level spell that a wizard can cast on himself or his fighter buddy from the get-go, why is this Stance that is almost in every way worse something that you have to be a 9th level initiator to learn?

Would it be broken to have, say, "Ogre's Stance" at level 1 in Stone Dragon, which operates "as Enlarge Person?"

[Rubik]

Dealing damage as though you're one size category larger means +1 to damage on average, or possibly up to +2 if you're wielding the right weapon. It is definitely horribly underpowered.

[Ravens_cry]

Dealing damage as though you're one size category larger means +1 to damage on average, or possibly up to +2 if you're wielding the right weapon. It is definitely horribly underpowered.
Can you combine the two?

[Segev]

Can you combine the two?
As in, Enlarge PErson then Giant Stance? Definitely, but it's still only an average of +2 to +4 damage, and half of that is coming from a 1st level spell while the other half is coming from a 5th level stance.


If you did "Ogre's Stance" which is "as Enlarge Person," and kept Giant's Stance around, it'd take a high-level class feature to combine them and still wouldn't be worth it.

If you just moved Giant's STance to 1st level and made it actually make you +1 size category, and it then stacked with Enlarge Person, you might be getting into slightly overpowered territory for level 1. But I'm not sure it would be by much, aside from the very generous 15' reach. 30 ft. with a reach weapon.

So combining a 1st level spell and this proposed alteration to Giant Stance would make a reach-weapon-wielding warrior very dangerous at 1st level.

But would it make him broken?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Stone Dragon stances can burn in hell. Except maybe the one...

[Rubik]

I think turning Stone Giant Stance into a first level stance and rewording it to work exactly like powerful build would be an excellent way to do it. It could combine with Enlarge Person nicely, but it wouldn't ruin anything.

Hell, I think all of Stone Dragon needs some reworking. The vast majority simply isn't worth messing with, especially given the stupid dwarven defender-level restrictions on it.

[Ravens_cry]

He, though not that powerful, there is something fun about being Cloud and rolling bigger dice. Yes, I know it's silly, but there just is.

[Rubik]

He, though not that powerful, there is something fun about being Cloud and rolling bigger dice. Yes, I know it's silly, but there just is.Gaining the bonuses to non-ToB combat maneuvers would be the best part about it. Otherwise, there's really not much point in rolling a d8 as opposed to a d6, honestly.

[Ravens_cry]

Gaining the bonuses to non-ToB combat maneuvers would be the best part about it. Otherwise, there's really not much point in rolling a d8 as opposed to a d6, honestly.
1d10 to 2d8 can be nice. Better bell curve and 4 points more on average is a nice improvement for a first level spell.

[Scow2]

1d10 to 2d8 can be nice. Better bell curve and 4 points more on average is a nice improvement for a first level spell.So is 2d6 to 3d6, or 3d6 to 4d6. Or, combine with Powerful Build. No, it's not as much a damage boost as the stuff that doubles damage or Power Attack's obscene boosts.

[Ravens_cry]

So is 2d6 to 3d6, or 3d6 to 4d6. Or, combine with Powerful Build. No, it's not as much a damage boost as the stuff that doubles damage or Power Attack's obscene boosts.
Yeah, I'm not saying it's great, but it adds damage and is just kinaesthetically pleasing to me.

[Red Fel]

Again, this is ToB. The common accolade is that it lets melee-types do so much more than they could before, the common complaint is "Doing what spellcasters were able to do 5 levels ago."

The stance increases your damage, without incurring any other penalties. Like any stance, it can be initiated as a swift action, dismissed just as easily, and re-cast infinitely. As long as you only take 5-foot steps, the stance ends only when you say it does.

Does Enlarge come sooner to a spellcaster? Yes. But can it be cast, dismissed, and recast infinitely and as a swift action? Does it last theoretically indefinitely? Does the spell confer only advantages, and no penalties?

You know the answer to all that. And that's the point. Is it underpowered? Yes, in that it only adds to damage and limits your movement (like a lot of things in the Stone Dragon disappointment discipline). But it also offers more flexibility than the spell, and apart from the movement limit (and the fact that you choose this stance over another) it has no downside.

Trying to create a first-level stance that recreates a first-level spell misses the point. If you do that, you're risking going way OP in a book that doesn't need help becoming OP.

And in any event, if size modifiers are that important, chances are your character is traveling with a spellcaster who can cast Enlarge Person. Problem solved.

[Segev]

The impetus behind my investigation that re-acquainted me with Giant Stance was contemplating how one might get from Warblade or Crusader into War Hulk without having to multi-class or take a LA+1 (or more) race. There's always "permanencied Enlarge Person," but build elegance usually benefits by not needing to assume you have the gold and can find the willing caster to do an outside service for you. Not that it isn't an option, but still.

Hence I was contemplating what level a Stance should be if all it does is actually increase your size by one category. Obviously, Giant Stance doesn't do this, but it's so high level that it makes trying to balance one that would off of it as a starting point seems nearly pointless.

[Big Fau]

I think turning Stone Giant Stance into a first level stance and rewording it to work exactly like powerful build would be an excellent way to do it.

IMO turning it into Powerful Build: The Stance would remove an aspect of the Giant's Stance's effect (specifically you don't need to be carrying around an oversized weapon with Giant's Stance, whereas you do with Powerful Build).

And the OP is right, the stance is nigh unto useless compared to other stances (Punishing Stance deals more damage on average).

[Eldariel]

Honestly, it could be interesting if it weren't capped at Large. Now? It doesn't stack with Enlarge Person, Powerful Build, Strongarm Bracers or anything. And then it has the 5' limitation and no flight limitation, which really kills it. If you changed all those (or 2/3), it could actually be interesting, especially if it also applied to combat maneuvers.

[Segev]

So, it would be perhaps overpowered to make it level 1 and just increase size category by +1. What about as a level 3 stance?

[TroubleBrewing]

Then the Psychic Warrior shrugs and moves on. :smalltongue:

[holywhippet]

It's more useful when you chain it together with a number of other effective size increasing tricks. There are numerous unarmed builds which rely on cranking up your actual and effective size. Unarmed because the monk's unarmed damage goes up to 2d10 at level 20 which is more than a regular weapon.

[Rubik]

Even a full size increase wouldn't be so bad at level 1; just make sure that it doesn't stack with any other effect that actually increases your size.

[lsfreak]

Just as a point of comparison, the Iron Heart stance that gives +1d6 damage/-2 AC at 1st level and is already one of the best stances at low levels (though its staying power sucks). Best case for increasing size, at that 1st level, is going 2d6 to 3d6 or 1d10 to 2d8, both of which are roughly equivalent to +1d6. Maybe make it 3rd level, but with a flat "you count as one step larger" so that you get the bonuses on trip, bull rush, etc.

[Segev]

Yeah, having it be level 1 and "as Enlarge Person, save it affects you regardless of your Type and is Personal range," would make it pretty much on par with Psychic Warrior. And, honestly, in practice, anybody could pick up Hidden Talent at level 1 for Expansion if they really wanted it. Admittedly, that'd work all of 2/day, whereas a stance is "every fight."

[TroubleBrewing]

And, honestly, in practice, anybody could pick up Hidden Talent at level 1 for Expansion if they really wanted it. Admittedly, that'd work all of 2/day, whereas a stance is "every fight."

How many fights a day are you getting into at 1st level? Because usually, after one, I'm all out of spare hit points.

[Segev]

In theory, adventurers get into 4 fights a day.

I'm not saying it's how it works out. But it's the expectation under which the game is designed. (Not perfectly.)

[Lonely Tylenol]

This is a niche case, but one worth mentioning because it is an indicator of more extreme examples to come: a 20th-level Monk (or Unarmed Swordsage) with this stance goes from doing 2d10 damage (average 11) to 4d8 (average 18)--a damage increase of seven per hit. Size increases (real or imagined), by default, get wonkier--also more useful--the closer you get to a fringe case. Going from 1d3 to 1d4 on the Halfling's dagger is so piddly as to be laughable (a 5th-level stance on half a point of damage per hit!), but a Swordsage of high enough level, who is trading blows measured in buckets of d6 (or d8), will see a damage increase of 7 (or 9) when they jump from 4d6 to 6d6 (or 4d8 to 6d8), and every jump thereafter. That is a measurable increase in damage, and a respectable one to boot, once enough attacks are factored in.

Here's an example. A three-level detour into Fist of the Forest (which also offers goodies like Feral Trance and CON to AC while unarmed), plus the Superior Unarmed Strike feat or Monk's Belt, can net you this as early as level 11, which makes it not altogether unfeasible in a standard game. No, it isn't the full range of size stacking shenanigans--but it also isn't dependent on other characters, or multiple dips, or a huge investment into anything not otherwise worth going into. It is not altogether complicated. Even with the drawbacks, the prospect of size increases is strictly better than, say, Fiery Assault, the Desert Wind 6 stance which adds +1d6 fire damage to each attack... Making it strictly inferior to the first-level boost, Burning Blade. Nor is it Stance of Clarity levels of bad, whereby it's basically actively detrimental 90% of the time.

No, the biggest problem with Giant's Stance is that it's boring. Between giving per-attack bonuses and breaking with movement exceeding five feet, Giant's Stance pigeonholes you into "I stand still and full attack" territory, which is precisely what I come to Tome of Battle to avoid. If I'm a Swordsage, I'd rather walk on water, or perhaps take additional 5-ft. steps, because tactical movement opens up more options, rather than closing them.

[Segev]

That's the thing, though: Enlarge Person or Expansion, both level 1 abilities, also give this same level of bonus damage to the higher-level monk or "unarmed swordsage." So that doesn't justify it being a 5th level Stance.

"This thing that was useful at level 1 is even more useful at level 9, so we should make it not available until level 9" is not a good argument for any sort of balance. The increase in utility at higher level doesn't make it retroactively broken at lower level.

[Lonely Tylenol]

That's the thing, though: Enlarge Person or Expansion, both level 1 abilities, also give this same level of bonus damage to the higher-level monk or "unarmed swordsage." So that doesn't justify it being a 5th level Stance.

"This thing that was useful at level 1 is even more useful at level 9, so we should make it not available until level 9" is not a good argument for any sort of balance. The increase in utility at higher level doesn't make it retroactively broken at lower level.

A permanent or renewable form of Enlarge Person is not available until level 9, when one can cast Permanency, nor is a form of Enlarge Person that does not take up one's action economy to cast until level 9, when one has the spell slots to cast Quickened Enlarge Person.

Also, comparing maneuvers to spells, and more accurately, the level at which you get each, is rather silly, as it's literally like comparing apples to oranges; the two are obviously different systems, with obviously different power benchmarks. Giant's Stance coming shortly after the Wizard gets Mass Enlarge Person is irrelevant because the Wizard is a Wizard. If the level at which Wizards and other full casters get things is your benchmark for balance, then most things are going to fall well short of your benchmark.

[Segev]

No offense, Lonely Tylenol, but it sounds like your argument centers around, "Casters should be more powerful than others at whatever because they are casters. It is right and good that any non-caster system should fall short of what a wizard can do. Wizards and clerics and druids should be better at all this stuff."

I know you don't explicitly say most of that, but the parts you don't say extend logically from what seems to be the premise around which your post is built, which is, "Wizards do everything better, and you shouldn't try to balance things against what wizards can do because wizards SHOULD do everything better."


If that is not where you're coming from, please explain how you believe non-casters SHOULD be balanced compared to casters.

[Person_Man]

It's not that hard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) to get actual or effective size increases. And yes, Giant's Stance sucks. The 5 ft movement restriction I can live with, because it's themeatic, and moving around in dungoens isn't that big of a deal when you're really big (and thus also have a lot of reach).

But Giant's Stance also caps your effective size at Large. Which means it can't be combined with anything else. Which means that they might as well have just said "add +2ish to all damage rolls."

[Harrow]

Also remember that buying castings of Enlarge Person and Permanency costs only a few thousand gold and can be done at pretty low levels.

Also, I would say it's very relevant comparing maneuvers to spellcasting because both systems exist side-by-side. If they were mutually exclusive and any given campaign had only one, then a comparison isn't really necessary, but not only do they exist together, there are prestige classes that advance both at once. Why would someone take Giant's Stance when they can just buy potions of Enlarge Person or get it Permanenc'ied like I said earlier?

[Ravens_cry]

I wouldn't get it permanenced, for the same reason I don't play a medium mounted character. Large has a lot of liabilities in an environment, like dungeons, where you might have to squeeze through tiny spaces. While doable for a medium character, it's much harder for a large. Literally impossible without significant skill and stat investment. Instead, I'd get an item.

[Segev]

Items, like spells, require a round to activate. Spells - when cast by allies - at least only cost the caster's round, rather than the now-Enlarged beatstick's, but it still costs a round.

A permanancied Enlarge Person is always on, with all the attendant disadvantages, but also attendant advantages.

I'd suggest carrying around an item of Reduce Person when you're Enlarged permanently, because the cases where getting smaller will help usually aren't as time-critical as the "get big for combat" issue, but Reduce Person says it counters and dispels Enlarge, so it'd probably waste all the gp you just spent on Enlarging yourself Permanently the first time you used it.

The PsyWarrior 1 power "Compression," on the other hand, does not explicitly counter and dispel anything. So an item of that may be the ticket!

[Person_Man]

As an aside, this thread made me remember an old homebrew PrC I wrote for a player who wanted to play Ant Man. He had a fun time with it.

Atom Smasher

Requirements: Ability to manifest Expansion and Compression, Knowledge (Psionics) 8 ranks.

{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special |
1st | +0 | +2 | +2 | +2 | Size Specialist | -
2nd | +1 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Size Bonus Feat | +1 manifester level
3rd | +2 | +3 | +3 | +3 | Size Bonus Feat, Skill Mastery | +1 manifester level
4th | +3 | +4 | +4 | +4 | Size Bonus Feat | +1 manifester level
5th | +3 | +4 | +4 | +4 | Size Mastery | -
[/table]

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills: Autohypnosis, Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidation, Jump, Listen, Knowledge (Psionics), Move Silently, Profession, Spot, Swim, and Tumble.

Skill Points: 4 + Int per level.

Class Abilities:

Size Specialist: Starting at first level, you may subtract your Atom Smasher class level from the power point cost required to augment the Expansion and Compression psionic powers (with a minimum cost of 0 points), and you calculate the cost for doing so for each augmentation separately, including any metapsionic feats you apply to these powers. For example, a Psychic Warrior 5/Atom Smasher 4 could manifest Expansion or Compression for 1 power point, increase or decrease their size change by one additional category for two additional power points (6 minus 4), manifest it as a Swift Action for two additional power points (6 minus 4), and increase the duration to 10 minutes per level for zero additional power points (2 minus 4, minimum 0).

In addition, you may use your total character level to determine your manifester level for Expansion and Compression, in place of the normal calculation for determining manifester level. For example, a Fighter 6/Warmind 5/Atom Smasher 1 may use a manifester level of 12 for Expansion and Compression (which could not be further modified by other abilities or Feats like Overchannel or Practiced Manifester), instead of 5.

Powers Known: At second, third, and fourth levels, the character progresses his manifester level, gains additional power points per day, and gains access to new powers as if he had also gained a level in whatever manifesting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus feats, metapsionic or item creation feats, psicrystal special abilities, and so on). This essentially means that he adds the level of Atom Smasher to the level of whatever manifesting class the character has, then determines power points per day, powers known, and manifester level accordingly. For example, a Psychic Warrior 5/Atom Smasher 5 would have the psionic powers of an 8th level Psychic Warrior. If a character had more than one manifesting class before she became an Atom Smasher, he must decide to which class he adds the new level of Atom Smasher for the purpose of determining power points per day, powers known, and Atom Smasher level.

Size Bonus Feat: At second, third, and fourth levels, you gain a bonus feat of your choice. Each bonus feat must have a size category requirement in order to select it, such as Giantbane (Complete Warrior), Underfoot Combat (Races of the Wild), Confound the Big Folk (Underfoot Combat), Swarm Fighting (Complete Warrior), Scramble (Savage Species), Powerful Charge (Miniatures Handbook), Clever Wrestling (Complete Warrior), Cunning Sidestep (Draconomicon), Fling Ally (Races of Stone), Fling Foe (Races of Stone), Knockback (Races of Stone), Rock Hurling (Races of Stone), Snatch (Monster Manual), Improved Snatch (Draconomicon), and similar feats. You you take the Feat even if you do not currently meet the size requirements for that Feat, but you do not gain the benefits of that Feat until you do. For example, a Medium character could take the Knockback Feat, but would only benefit from it when he is Large size or bigger.

Skill Mastery: At third level, whenever you are Tiny or smaller size you may Take 10 on all Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, and Tumble checks, even while threatened or rushed. Whenever you are Large size or bigger, you may Take 10 on all Jump checks, even while threatened or rushed.

Size Mastery: At fifth level, when you manifest Expansion you may increase your size by one additional category (for a maximum total of three size categories) at no additional Power Point cost. When you manifest Compression you may decrease your size by one additional category (for a maximum total of three size categories) at no additional Power Point cost. You may also manifest Expansion and Compression as an Immediate Action, at no additional Power Point cost.

In addition, when you are Tiny or smaller size, you may add your Dexterity bonus to all damage rolls that you make. When you are Huge or greater in size, you may add your Strength bonus to all Intimidation checks that you make.


In general, if you have a player that just wants to be big or small or whatever, you should find an easy way to let them do it. It's going to break the game, and it's a lot easier to hand them a strait forward method of doing what they want, instead of having them cobble together a bunch of spells and effects that don't mesh well with their character concept.

[Feint's End]

To OP:

Yes Giant's Stance is terrible. It would be slightly better if you could size larger than large with it since as written it even doesn't make sense on unarmed combatants.

For example:

Be a Kalashtar Tashalatora Ardent/Psywar (Doesn't really matter)with strong arms craft and battlefist craft. Add Improved Natural Attack and Expansion ^2.

Now get yourself some action with greater mighty wallop and apply size modifiers in the most favourable way.

so we got 2d10->4d8->6d8->8d8->12d8->16d8->24d8->32d8->48d8->64d8 .... while that is already awesome another size increase would mean 32d8 additional damage so yeah through giant stance but ... well yeah ...

[Segev]

Hrm. Not that this in any way saves it as a level 5 stance, but would you be able to apply it in an order that would allow a small or smaller unarmed combatant get up to Colossal-type damage?

Perhaps STARTING smaller makes it better, is what I'm trying to (get others, more experienced with unarmed and sizing mechanics, to) examine. Because there ARE advantages to actually being smaller rather than bigger; better to-hit, better AC, etc. So if it can even serve as a step to get little guys to Colossal-type damage while retaining their smallness advantages, it could be worth...something. Even if not a level 5 stance.

[lsfreak]

I'm not seeing what's so zomghorrible about the stance ending when you move. You can simply reactive it with a swift action, and while ToB did some to give melee a use for immediate/swift actions, it's very likely you'll have it free for the round (though it means you won't benefit on a charge). The fact that you must be in contact with the ground is a much, MUCH bigger problem than eating up an extra swift action.

[Lonely Tylenol]

No offense, Lonely Tylenol, but it sounds like your argument centers around, "Casters should be more powerful than others at whatever because they are casters. It is right and good that any non-caster system should fall short of what a wizard can do. Wizards and clerics and druids should be better at all this stuff."

I know you don't explicitly say most of that, but the parts you don't say extend logically from what seems to be the premise around which your post is built, which is, "Wizards do everything better, and you shouldn't try to balance things against what wizards can do because wizards SHOULD do everything better."


If that is not where you're coming from, please explain how you believe non-casters SHOULD be balanced compared to casters.

Well, it sure is a good thing you qualify that statement, because I'm going in the opposite direction, here! A Wizard could prepare three different broken tricks each day, and have enough to prepare three different broken tricks each day for a year without repeating himself. Wizards (and related full casters) have set the benchmark so high that, from a balance standpoint, one can look at the Wuxia-level badassery the Warblade puts out and yawn. Swordsages can fly and rain fiery death from the sky, and the rote reaction is always going to be, "so? Wizards have been flying and raining fiery death from the sky for eight levels now, assuming they're unoptimized enough!

Wizards make a horrible balance point because Wizards are horribly imbalanced. If the question is "can a Wizard do this better, faster, sooner?", the answer is yes, of course they can. If that's your balance point, then of course a vast majority of options fall short of the benchmark. That doesn't make these options grotesquely underpowered; taken as a whole, that makes the balance point grotesquely overpowered.

[Segev]

No, that really isn't a sound argument. The balance point CAN be set wherever you want, if you build around it.

But more to the point, your argument is meaningless. If you're saying "Enlarge Person is overpowered as a level 1 spell," that is more meaningful. Is that the point you're trying to make in context of this discussion? Because "wizards are OP!" is not useful. It says nothing to the specifics of the situation. For every broken thing a Wizard can do, there are umpteen underpowered spells he could prepare. But for your statement to have any meaning, we must conclude that you mean that all things a Wizard can do are overpowered, and thus nothing should be balanced to be even as strong as teh weakest thing a Wizard can do.

If that is NOT your point, you need to narrow your claim. Focus it. If you want to say Enlarge Person is overpowered, then we have somethign we can discuss. I happen to disagree; I think it's fine as a 1st level spell. Do you believe it to be overpowered? If so, why? What should a 1st level spell do, and what level should Enlarge Person be? Or how should it be changed?

[Phaederkiel]

I have used giants stance as an NPC option. Describing how the guys morningstar grows got obviously more reaction than the actual damage increase, but hey...

[Rubik]

I have used giants stance as an NPC option. Describing how the guys morningstar grows got obviously more reaction than the actual damage increase, but hey...Um... That's not how the stance works at all.

[Ravens_cry]

Items, like spells, require a round to activate. Spells - when cast by allies - at least only cost the caster's round, rather than the now-Enlarged beatstick's, but it still costs a round.

Nope, you can get a Continuous item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingWondrousItems) (see the Spell Effect sub-table) and have it always work unless you take off the item. Also, if a magic item is dispelled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm), it comes back after 1d4 rounds. If your permanency is dispelled, it's gone, period.

[Segev]

I suppose that would only be a 3000 gp item.

[Ravens_cry]

I suppose that would only be a 3000 gp item.
4000 I think actually, though it should be noted these are suggestions for estimating. The DM can, and should, adjust things somewhat up and down as needed. A use activated item of True Strike, if only for its concealment negating effect, is worth more than the formula suggests.

[Segev]

An item of True Strike would follow the formula for non-enhancement bonus-to-hit, not for a spell.

IIRC, Enlarge Person is 10 min/level, earning it a 1.5x multiplier on the base 1 (CL) x 1 (spell level) x 2000 gp for a continuous item. If it's a min./level instead of 10, then yes, it's a 2x multiplier instead of 1.5x. This is, of course, assuming "appropriate body slot." I figure a cloak is probably about right, for "shoulders." Maybe arms/bracers. (Gauntlets of Ogre Size?) Heck, the presence of "belt of giant strength" could indicate "belt" is a valid slot. It's pretty flexible.

Yes, they're guidelines, but they're pretty solid ones. Enlarge Person does not have any of the standard tell-tale signs that it should be inflated in price beyond the recommended guidelines. So unless you think it a particularly potent effect to have on all the time, there you go.

[Feint's End]

Hrm. Not that this in any way saves it as a level 5 stance, but would you be able to apply it in an order that would allow a small or smaller unarmed combatant get up to Colossal-type damage?

Perhaps STARTING smaller makes it better, is what I'm trying to (get others, more experienced with unarmed and sizing mechanics, to) examine. Because there ARE advantages to actually being smaller rather than bigger; better to-hit, better AC, etc. So if it can even serve as a step to get little guys to Colossal-type damage while retaining their smallness advantages, it could be worth...something. Even if not a level 5 stance.

Greater Mighty Wallop does increase size up to colossal and up to 5 size categories meaning for a small character it's the exact same thing at level 20. You had to be at least tiny to get a real advantage out of the stance (I mean if you are stacking size categories and the only place you are really doing this is when you fight unarmed or with natural weapons)

Might be worth it on a King of Smack build since you can actually apply the stance here before other stuff like expansion and Improved Natural Attack. So not entirely useless on a build like that.

[Segev]

Hm. Small "King of Smack" using Compression to get down to Tiny, Giant Stance for +1 effective size for damage back up to Small, and then Greater Mighty Wallop for increase to Colossal.

Actually, could go all the way down to Fine via augmented Compression, and add Improved Natural Weapon to get back up to Colossal damage.

The six-inch-tall King of Smack!

[Feint's End]

Hm. Small "King of Smack" using Compression to get down to Tiny, Giant Stance for +1 effective size for damage back up to Small, and then Greater Mighty Wallop for increase to Colossal.

Actually, could go all the way down to Fine via augmented Compression, and add Improved Natural Weapon to get back up to Colossal damage.

The six-inch-tall King of Smack!

amusing idea :D ... wouldn't use it on a king of smack though. Greater Mighty Wallop doesn't work on claws so you had to build a Tashalatora "King of Smack" who focuses on unarmed attacks. And even then it would still be suboptimal since, well ...., you can't use expansion if you are already using compression and that's one of the core damage increases of every king of smack build. It would be very amusing though :D ... gonna give you that

[Segev]

Well, you're using Compression precisely because you've pushed the damage up to Colossal and super-saturated it there if you don't shrink down a little bit.

So you're now shrinking for the size bonus to hit and AC (and possibly hide!), without sacrificing the damage.

Admittedly, you ARE taking a penalty to strength that you'll need to overcome.