PDA

View Full Version : Best Combat System in Your Opinion?



InQbait
2013-09-08, 01:11 PM
In my tabletop roleplaying experiences, I've come across quite a few different combat systems, primarily D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, 4th Edition D&D. The combat for these systems were not bad, but they just aren't what I am looking for anymore. I know that the above systems tend to focus on combat, especially 4e, but I'm looking for something different but that is still good. A system that is complex, yet easy and quick to use.
So, playgrounders, what are some of your favorite combat systems, and why?

originalginger
2013-09-08, 01:25 PM
13th Age and Burning Wheel might be worth looking into. Neither is exactly my cup of tea, as I am all for 3.5, PF, and 4e, but both systems have their loyal supporters, and I can certainly see the appeal.

Jack of Spades
2013-09-08, 01:42 PM
The Burning Wheel combat system is like a clock tower: beautiful, elegant and complex to the outsider, but damn would I hate to be the guy running it. It's actually recommended in the book that you only use the full combat rules for really important fights where you won't mind if a combat to first blood between two people takes half an hour.

Star Wars: Edge of the Empire has a pretty nifty combat system, with a lot of depth to it from the way you "buy" advantages and weapon abilities: there are Advantage symbols on the dice (in addition to Success symbols) which are pooled on their own and spent in order to represent things like combat advantage, critical hits, and dirty tactics. Also, when initiative is determined the slots are given to sides of the fight rather than specific characters. Which is to say, the PC's can choose the order in which they act each turn.

I have a nigh-irrational love of everything in Deadlands Classic, so of course I find that combat system keen. The main difference from d20 is that when you roll initiative you are dealt some number of cards from a poker deck based on your roll rather than just being placed at a static point in the order.

There are quite a few systems that incorporate dodge mechanics, generally by saying that each character can roll an agility/DEX/whatever check to dodge as a reaction once per round. It's a pretty simple way to add a bit of complexity.

Glimbur
2013-09-08, 01:49 PM
I really like the combat system for White Wolf's Street Fighter RPG. Yes, some of the fiddly details, especially knockdown, can be abused, but the idea of everyone selecting their moves and then the slowest person announcing first is charming.

Tengu_temp
2013-09-08, 02:12 PM
I like Legends of the Wulin. The editing of the book leaves a lot to be desired and some things are unclear, but it manages to create a system that's narratively AND mechanically interesting, with lots of options and cool attacks to choose from every turn. And it's decently well-balanced, too.

Rhynn
2013-09-08, 02:51 PM
I enjoy simplicity, so B/X or BECMI D&D or any retroclone thereof. ACKS has some particularly nice touches on its, but most of all, it's simple.

For deep combat systems, The Riddle of Steel is my absolute favorite. (I think Burning Wheel's action-scripting is clunky.) You have a dice pool; after initiative is determined (which includes cool nuances that can be used to perfectly simulate, say, an iaijutsu duel), you take offensive or defensive action (the person who won initiative lands their attacks first, so you better defend - even if you're heavily armored). With the variety of styles, maneuvers, and guards (most of those optional) you've got a lot of depth around a very simple core. The realism:playability ratio is incredible.

Twilight 2013 has the best modern combat system, though. With countdown-based initiative and awesome details, you get a very realistic system modelling modern small-scale small arms combat. If you use the Stage III (most complex) rules for initiative, actions resolve after their tick cost has been counted down, which means that you can interrupt actions with quicker actions: you can take a snap shot at the guy aiming at you, you can grab and toss a grenade thrown at your feet before it goes off, you can shoot a guy in the head right after he's pulled the pin on his grenade, causing it to fall in his position... and so on.

Aces & Eights is awesome, too, with its shot clock. Basically, you lay a transparency over a silhouette of your target (several are provided in different positions, and it's easy enough to print your own if you mind the scale). Based on your attack roll and a random roll (or card draw? I know the shotgun scatter uses cards), you move out from your aiming point and hit some body part. If the body part only fills up to half of the section you hit, you grazed them. There's injury tables for serious wounds. PCs who get into a lot of gunfights will probably end up retiring (at least from gunfighting) because of injuries.

Old RuneQuest (RQ3) is a long-standing favorite, despite not being that special. Separate rolls for attack and defense, locational hit points, criticals and impales, etc. Simple, playable, fun, "detailed enough." RQ6 is good, too, but more complex.

HârnMaster is relatively simple, despite its tables (they fit on 2-4 pages depending on edition), and gets quite realistic results (mail + quilt is very effective protection from swords but tiring to fight in, etc.). I understand that combats involving several heavily-armored knights can turn into slogfests, though.

Actana
2013-09-08, 03:05 PM
For deep combat systems, The Riddle of Steel is my absolute favorite. (I think Burning Wheel's action-scripting is clunky.) You have a dice pool; after initiative is determined (which includes cool nuances that can be used to perfectly simulate, say, an iaijutsu duel), you take offensive or defensive action (the person who won initiative lands their attacks first, so you better defend - even if you're heavily armored). With the variety of styles, maneuvers, and guards (most of those optional) you've got a lot of depth around a very simple core. The realism:playability ratio is incredible.

Agreed here. The Riddle of Steel's combat system is excellent, and I especially like it because player skill has far more a role in it than in most other systems. You need to know when to defend, how to deal against different types of foes (if you're light armored and the opponent heavily, just wear him out and then kill him). The adjustment of offensive/defensive actions, and the real danger of combat is all quite exciting. And regardless of its mechanics, the game still manages to keep its focus on the more narrative aspects with the Spiritual Attributes and the like.

Rakaydos
2013-09-08, 03:08 PM
Myriad Song just came out, with a VERY good combat system.

Instead of tracking HP, the power of a hit you take deturmines what statuses you take.

Being hit at all kills half your action economy and makes it easier for other enemies to hit you for the rest of the round.

An attack that does Two points of damage in a single hit, after armor soak, gives the above and a status that puts you on the defensive- you can counterattak or otherwise defend yourself, but you cannot attack on YOUR turn until you either break contact or an ally helps you out. Four points of damage in one hit will take someone out of the fight.

The odd numbered damages inflict "take extra damage" statuses- so if you hit someone with a 2 point attack 3 times, the first gives the 1 and 2 point effects, which upgrades the second to a 3 point attack, and that increases the third to a 4 point attack, dropping the target.

Tengu_temp
2013-09-08, 03:17 PM
I'm not sure, that kinda sounds like rocket tag - the penalties for getting hit are so severe that the first one to get hit loses. But that's just what I got from a very brief description so perhaps I'm wrong.

Vitruviansquid
2013-09-08, 03:26 PM
I think Savage Worlds has a system with some very good potential. There is enough randomness for combats to be exciting, there is enough stat variations for you to build different kinds of combatants that feel pretty different on the table, the system lets players feel like heroes without being invincible, and combats are very easy to run.

That said, the base system also makes a lot of very dodgy decisions that undermine the combat, like forcing players to take resources out of combat options if they want to be good at non-combat stuff. Fortunately, I've found the system easy to house rule.

But if we're talking about the best Combat System published (since I don't think it would make any sense at all to ask about the best Combat System after extensive houseruling) I would say DnD 4e, because I've yet to actually run a combat in it that was boring, so long as I followed the guidelines laid out in the DM book.

Autolykos
2013-09-08, 03:41 PM
I'm not sure, that kinda sounds like rocket tag - the penalties for getting hit are so severe that the first one to get hit loses. But that's just what I got from a very brief description so perhaps I'm wrong.Depending on the setting and the tactics you want to see, rocket tag may actually be desirable. Shadowrun 3e is a little like that (even the +1 TN from light damage will seriously screw you over in melee). But it works in the sense that it forces players to think before rushing in, and makes "unfair" tactics vital to success. It is also probably my favorite, mainly because the melee rules do not have that arbitrary distinction of attack vs defense common to other systems.

Rakaydos
2013-09-08, 04:13 PM
I'm not sure, that kinda sounds like rocket tag - the penalties for getting hit are so severe that the first one to get hit loses. But that's just what I got from a very brief description so perhaps I'm wrong.

It's weighted in favor of people who have the skills to actually fight, yes. But the damages themselves are usually fairly low. 3-4 points before soak, which will usually stop 1-2 points if they dont use (feat equivilants) for extra durability. Also, Players (and named NPCs like major villins) have a 1/day "get out of death free" card... which means you strt playing REALLY cautius and or running away after it gets used.

In practice, you can often lose a fight without actually dying and so can the bad guys. And it's over one way or another fast enough to get back to the RP.

EDIT: It's being burried in the second page, but I started discussion thread about it here: (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300479)

Tengu_temp
2013-09-08, 04:25 PM
Okay, that sounds definitely better than the first impression.

Mr. Mask
2013-09-09, 03:01 AM
Riddle of Steel is the most fun example that comes to mind. Hârnmaster and Twilight 2013 deserve mention. Burning Wheel and Mouse Guard looked very interesting, but I haven't tried them.

Never been fully taken with combat in tabletop games. That's why I'm attempting to make one of my own.

The Rose Dragon
2013-09-09, 03:20 AM
I am quite fond of Anima Prime, mostly because it's very much narrative and doesn't try to simulate every single action in a fight, only concerning itself with how you get the upper hand in the long term.

I am also fond of Nine Worlds and the contest-based combat of Faery's Tale Deluxe, where entire skirmishes can be over in a single turn from the players' perspective, no matter how detailed the events where for the characters.

Gamgee
2013-09-09, 03:25 AM
For absolutely brutal combat your going to want 40k which I am in love with for that aspect.

For finesse and speed? Numenera.

Burning Wheel is also really great, but very detailed. It's a game that does small scale games well.

TroubleBrewing
2013-09-09, 03:27 AM
I love the Burning Wheel system, but some vicious, disgusting part of me is enamored with Call of Cthulhu.

Maybe it's because I run games too often, and love watching players just up and die, but there's something satisfying about "Roll percentiles, if you succeed, you kill a guy. If you fail, he bashes your head in with an axe."

Black Jester
2013-09-09, 03:36 AM
It's a rules issue, so the answer is, as usual: GURPS. It is just better than other systems. You have everything a good combat system needs - active defense (there are no good combat systems that do not include the option for active defense), (optional) hit locations and the whole range from a very, very simple system to one that is extremely fiddly and has such a large number of options as you could want, and because the game is designed good, you can actually pick the options you want and leave those you are not interested in for your game, so you can adjust the system very specifically to your needs. And because the basic system is so elegant and consistent, that the gameplay in usual is highly intuitive (but that is Gurps general strength).

HârnMaster is an interesting case because while the actual combat system is mediocre and somewhat bland (not bad, but not that great either), the system for injuries including healing and infections is so visceral and so brutal that it makes its point - you only fight if you must - pretty clear.

oudeis
2013-09-09, 04:42 AM
Another vote for Runequest here. In addition to the aforementioned hit locations, criticals and such, armor makes you harder to hurt, not harder to hit, really big monsters can have really big damage bonuses, and it's perhaps the only game system extant that uses d100 to determine hits and skill successes.

Black Jester
2013-09-09, 05:55 AM
Another vote for Runequest here.[...] and it's perhaps the only game system extant that uses d100 to determine hits and skill successes.

No, not even close. It might have been the 1st one but systems like HârnMaster or Rolemaster (and as an expansion MERP) use the same d100, and there was a time when it was generally really common, probably the second most common game dice of them all, Since then, d100 systems have somewhat lost popularity, but it is still not that uncommon.

Ashtagon
2013-09-09, 07:30 AM
In my tabletop roleplaying experiences, I've come across quite a few different combat systems, primarily D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, 4th Edition D&D. The combat for these systems were not bad, but they just aren't what I am looking for anymore. I know that the above systems tend to focus on combat, especially 4e,[]

With all due respect, if D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, 4th Edition D&D are your examples for a few different combat systems, you haven't looked very hard. Despite their differences, they all pretty much play as 1d20+modifiers. Off the top of my head:


GURPS: 3d6-based, active defences
TORG: dice (roughly 1d10-1d10+modifiers) and cards in play
Traveller: 2d6 + modifiers
Amber: The original diceless RPG
Fighting Fantasy: 2d6 + modifiers, vs. 2d6 + modifiers, advanced options for many-on-one fights and different weapons
Cthulhu/Runequest: 1d100 based
Paranoia: 1d20 based, lookup tables for damage, GMs encouraged to apply circumstantial modifiers liberally, ludicrously lethal combat


[quote]...but I'm looking for something different but that is still good. A system that is complex, yet easy and quick to use.
So, playgrounders, what are some of your favorite combat systems, and why?

GURPS seems to be the answer to your question, with an honourable mention to TORG/Masterbook (albeit almost impossible to find).

elliott20
2013-09-09, 11:57 AM
I think it really depends on what KIND of combat you're looking for.

For realistic, gritty, combat that rewards high skill over good stats, Riddle of Steel is an excellent system, as others have alluded to.

Burning Wheel, because it uses the same "rock paper scissors" style combat, is also this way. They both reward system mastery, and players can read opponents well will do better than a higher stat player.

Now, if you're looking for combat systems that rewards cinematic play, Fate or Wushu both do a marvelous job to doing pulpy stuff, and they do it through a fairly lean system.
So it all depends upon what it is you're aiming to accomplish in combat.

oudeis
2013-09-09, 12:24 PM
No, not even close. It might have been the 1st one but systems like HârnMaster or Rolemaster (and as an expansion MERP) use the same d100, and there was a time when it was generally really common, probably the second most common game dice of them all, Since then, d100 systems have somewhat lost popularity, but it is still not that uncommon.Ah. I didn't know that either of those was still in publication.

Remmirath
2013-09-09, 05:34 PM
Ah. I didn't know that either of those was still in publication.

MERP definitely isn't, alas, and it's hard tracking down books for it (that don't cost at least one appendage at this point), but Rolemaster is still in publication.

Rolemaster is my personal favourite for combat (mostly I play MERP, but the system's basically the same, and I use some Rolemaster books in with the MERP). The critical system has a nice amount of lethality, hit points don't get too outrageous (and even if they did they wouldn't matter as much with the critical system), and the way they have skill ranks and profession bonuses for combat skills ensures that the skill with weaponry is more important than raw stats. I also rather like the percentile based nature of it. The initiative order also has more room for things like moving in formation which are essentially impossible in D&D, and armour has an effect on how severe a critical will be taken (and negates or lessens some critical effects) rather than making you harder to hit. Shield bashing is also entirely possible within the rules, which is always a plus. It's not perfect -- I certainly have never encountered a system that is -- but it's quite good.

The Riddle of Steel sounds interesting, and it's one of those systems I would like to try, but having never actually played it I've no idea how it would actually handle in a game.

Rhynn
2013-09-09, 06:14 PM
I gave up playing Rolemaster because the combat system wasn't lethal enough. Combats with 3rd-level orcs (for a party of 6-8 characters of levels 5-10) would take hours and hours, and we actually saw more trolls and dragons succumb to blood loss (hit point damage) than cool criticals. It turned into a horrible unfun slog. I think MERP's combat system was actually better.

Granted, that was my mistake: I shouldn't have used big combats or allowed combats to get out of hand that way. Rolemaster / MERP fights should have maybe 3-5 characters on either side, and not be that frequent.

It was also an accounting nightmare: between stun, bleed, action penalties, their variations, separate durations for each (you could and regularly would have multiple conditions of each, all with separate durations) it was just awful. As GM, way too much of my time was spent trying to balance a freaking spreadsheet during play! Stunning was the worst offender, especially because you could parry at half offensive bonus, basically turtling up and becoming invincible except against super-lucky attacks. Stunning was one of the most common results from being hit. That alone turned fights into unfun slogs (and eventually I just started ignoring stun results, but it didn't help much).

Weirdly, when I played MERP, combat seemed to flow much easier. The crit tables weren't that different, but there definitely were far, far fewer combat tables.

Black Jester
2013-09-09, 06:38 PM
I had the almost exact same experience with Rolemaster/Merp. Full Rolemaster is a chore to play, while the simplified MERP is actually enjoyable. It is one of the best examples I know how a more simplified version of the same rules can actually be quite good, even if you are losing contents and options.
(I don't think it is a particularly good presentation of Middle-Earth though).

tasw
2013-09-09, 06:48 PM
I like Dark heresy's. Its a simple system thats fast and easy to get into and to mod all to the hell as a GM without breaking anything and the reaction defense actions are a great way to simulate duels and gritty action movies.

Tyndmyr
2013-09-09, 07:07 PM
but I'm looking for something different but that is still good. A system that is complex, yet easy and quick to use.
So, playgrounders, what are some of your favorite combat systems, and why?

Grab the PDFs of 7th Sea. Hell, I think one is free. Here's how combat works, in short. Roll and keep. Roll x dice(always d10s), keep y of them. Higher total scores are better.

X is always your trait(like strength), y is always trait + skill. 10's explode in most circumstances.

What do you roll in a given situation? Depends how you're solving the problem...this leads to people doing lots of fantastic setups. Welp, I'm too far to use my awesome knife skill because I didn't invest in throwing...but my finesse is solid, and I've got a point in swinging....

With certain variations, the same system is also used for naval combat.

Remmirath
2013-09-09, 09:28 PM
I had the almost exact same experience with Rolemaster/Merp. Full Rolemaster is a chore to play, while the simplified MERP is actually enjoyable. It is one of the best examples I know how a more simplified version of the same rules can actually be quite good, even if you are losing contents and options.

Yeah, some of the simplifications in MERP are good. Some of them aren't so good, at least to my mind -- but then, I have a tendency to like systems that some consider overly complex, and I have no problem with lots and lots of tables. A blend of the two systems may be ideal.


It was also an accounting nightmare: between stun, bleed, action penalties, their variations, separate durations for each (you could and regularly would have multiple conditions of each, all with separate durations) it was just awful. As GM, way too much of my time was spent trying to balance a freaking spreadsheet during play! Stunning was the worst offender, especially because you could parry at half offensive bonus, basically turtling up and becoming invincible except against super-lucky attacks. Stunning was one of the most common results from being hit. That alone turned fights into unfun slogs (and eventually I just started ignoring stun results, but it didn't help much).

That's one of the things I personally like about it, though; all the stunning, bleeding and action penalties are to me a lot more interesting than just losing hit points. I always have the players track their own character's effects, and it's not too much of a problem for just the enemies.

As for the parrying, I've never run into any real problems with it, but that could have something to do with my general tendency to throw monsters higher rather than lower level than the PCs at them and soup them up if I think they aren't lethal enough. I do that in any system, though, and I mostly don't have to do as much of it in MERP/RM as in other systems.


(I don't think it is a particularly good presentation of Middle-Earth though).

It has some definite problems in that regard. It can be used to run a good Middle-earth campaign, but the first thing that needs to go is all the loose magic they left floating around. Cut out almost all the spell lists (it's mostly a few bardic ones that can stay) and eliminate the weird corruption point system and that's a big step in the right direction. I do appreciate that they statted various well-known characters as being quite high level rather than trying to shove them all into the under-20th-level category.

Kane0
2013-09-09, 10:10 PM
That time my brothers and I got bored and dueled Avatar: TLA style in the backyard.

Rules just get in the way.

Edit/Digression:

It was actually pretty fun. The three of us positioned ourselves around the yard and used a ball we had with us. The attacker would have the ball and call out an attack while throwing the ball at a defender. The defender would call out their reaction and the third person would judge if the attacker or defender won. The defender now has the ball and can attack.
- Both the attacker and defender had to have finished announcing before the ball finished its flight. If you werent finished by the time the ball reached the defender then you were caught off guard or took to long to act/react. Neither could start announcing before the ball was thrown.
- Three strikes and you're out.
- If the ball didn't go anywhere near a target then the attack missed.
- You cannot move unless it is a part of your attack or defense


But with dice involved, probably 4th ed D&D. The core and basis is very solid, it's just lacking in the fun and awesome things that one could do with it which isn't a problem with the combat mechanics themselves, but rather the abilities used in it (and more importantly, not used). I like d20 systems, but 2d6 and 3d6 are good too.

Knaight
2013-09-10, 12:47 AM
There are a few obvious contenders. On top of those already mentioned:

ORE: You roll a set of dice and look for matches, with the number on the set corresponding to hit location and the number of dice in the set corresponding to speed of the action (and efficiency). Lots of other little rules interact with this, such as called shots, where you get one fewer die, but get to put one of your dice at the point you want to hit (leaving the option to still hit elsewhere if a match is rolled with the remaining dice, but increasing the probability of hitting the location because only one roll is really needed at that point). It ends up being a fairly deep system with a lot that can be done, and it still moves really quickly. ORE consists of a number of systems; REIGN is probably the best implementation of this for fantasy settings, but Nemesis is free and highlights the system well enough.

Fudge: Specifically, the Fudge 10th Anniversary edition book has a subsystem for dogfighting (as in aircraft, space opera fighters, etc.). It's a system of maneuvering and firing, which tracks range on a scale, tracks tailing, and differentiates between different equipment well, from guns and missiles to flares and various engine boosts. It also manages to do this with fairly light mechanics. Fudge Fu is also decent, as a simple system where all combat skills are broken up into Speed, Stance, and Technique, with various actions pitting these against each other.

Emmerask
2013-09-10, 06:18 AM
Looking at tables really isnt the problem, you can have the relevant tables all before you, then its a matter of seconds to look up the relevant data.

What is a huge problem is At17+ and high db (100+), this makes combat come to a standstill really with only overthrows being able to do anything besides ~2hp dmg.

Though you can swarm one enemy to negate that problem, something you should do anyway for the +35 (+15 flank +20 back if memory serves), however this also means that fighting against greater numbers is supremely deadly.

Rhynn
2013-09-10, 06:51 AM
Looking at tables really isnt the problem, you can have the relevant tables all before you, then its a matter of seconds to look up the relevant data.

I can't agree. Just using Rolemaster core, each of 30+ weapons having its own full-page attack table was a gigantic chore for me (I had sticky-note tabs in the book that barely helped at all). In MERP, the attack tables took up less than one page, and the critical tables took a total of 3-4. Not to mention that all the combat tables were on the first 5-6 pages of the separate table booklet, rather than in the book. Having to flip around the RM corebook for the other tables was also a pain.

I can't even imagine using the Arms Law book (and isn't there a separate one for monsters/animals?).


What is a huge problem is At17+ and high db (100+), this makes combat come to a standstill really with only overthrows being able to do anything besides ~2hp dmg.

I absolutely agree. This was a gigantic problem for me. Especially when the PCs faced serious threats (trolls, dragons, etc.), the combats were horrifying slogs with maybe a 5% chance per attack that something interesting happened. They seriously killed trolls and dragons by hit point loss more than critical results (thanks to Large and Very Large creatures having their own critical tables that made them super-resistant to criticals).

I really doubt any of my players would want to play Rolemaster again, despite the enormous fondness we all have for the 10-year campaign and the PCs that were involved. Great memories despite a bad game.

I have considered running MERP again, though...

Roguenewb
2013-09-11, 02:09 PM
I'm not gonna claim its the best, but the eclipse phase combat system is at least very interesting. The general mechanic is roll a d100, and try to get less than a number based on your skill with said skill. It uses this to get rid of AC/saves. To punch someone, I roll d100 and try to get under my unarmed skill. If I roll under, he gets to try rolling under his Fray (dodge) and if he fails, I hit. Since there is almost no look up, its very quick and mercurial. On top of that, shooting is against half-fray, so there are a lot of hits and armor matters a lot.

Emmerask
2013-09-11, 03:56 PM
It seems rather similar to Dark Eyes combat system with the roll under to succeed and then the other rolls under to look if he can parry/dodge.

The main problem with such systems is that potentially you can have looooooong combats with nothing happening with the "I hit... I parry/dodge" syndrome.
We once had 15 rounds of NOTHING happening due to that... after which we then switched systems :smallwink:

Rhynn
2013-09-11, 05:58 PM
I'm not gonna claim its the best, but the eclipse phase combat system is at least very interesting. The general mechanic is roll a d100, and try to get less than a number based on your skill with said skill. It uses this to get rid of AC/saves. To punch someone, I roll d100 and try to get under my unarmed skill. If I roll under, he gets to try rolling under his Fray (dodge) and if he fails, I hit. Since there is almost no look up, its very quick and mercurial. On top of that, shooting is against half-fray, so there are a lot of hits and armor matters a lot.

That actually sounds about exactly like RuneQuest/BRP, which goes back to 1978 (or earlier; I'm not sure if the original Steve Perrin D&D mod used d100) and has been used in hundreds of games. (Many use the exact same mechanic with, say, d20 or 3d6 or d10...)

"Roll to attack vs. roll to defend" is one of the most basic approaches outside of D&D, and "roll under skill" is very common too.

kidnicky
2013-09-11, 06:40 PM
Best I've actually used? Marvel Heroic Roleplaying and Wild World Wrestling are the best roleplaying combat systems, D&D the best tactical wargame one.

From what I've seen,Edge of the Empire looks pretty good, too.

Mutazoia
2013-09-11, 06:53 PM
I would chime in with the D6 system, or (if you can find a copy) the old Top Secret S/I rules (d100)

Black Jester
2013-09-12, 04:24 AM
It seems rather similar to Dark Eyes combat system with the roll under to succeed and then the other rolls under to look if he can parry/dodge.

The main problem with such systems is that potentially you can have looooooong combats with nothing happening with the "I hit... I parry/dodge" syndrome.
We once had 15 rounds of NOTHING happening due to that... after which we then switched systems :smallwink:

The TDE system requires the use of the game's special abilities. This prroblem is basically inexistent for groups who know how the basics work.


I would chime in with the D6 system, or (if you can find a copy) the old Top Secret S/I rules (d100)

You can get the pdfs of any of the latter d6 systems for free at drivethru. If they are so great ,I don't know, I remember mostly the Star Wars game and the amount of tweaking required to tame the invulnerable Wookie. But it is quite possible that this problem was solved in the newer games.

Lorsa
2013-09-12, 04:29 AM
I'm not gonna claim its the best, but the eclipse phase combat system is at least very interesting. The general mechanic is roll a d100, and try to get less than a number based on your skill with said skill. It uses this to get rid of AC/saves. To punch someone, I roll d100 and try to get under my unarmed skill. If I roll under, he gets to try rolling under his Fray (dodge) and if he fails, I hit. Since there is almost no look up, its very quick and mercurial. On top of that, shooting is against half-fray, so there are a lot of hits and armor matters a lot.

You forgot that if a Fray is successfull, the die value still need to be higher than the die value of the attack roll. It's very easy to hit people in Eclipse Phase, especially with guns.

IronFist
2013-09-12, 04:31 AM
Top 3:

Street Fighter the Storytelling Game
Anima Prime
Fight!

Black Jester
2013-09-12, 04:52 AM
Top 3:

Street Fighter the Storytelling Game
Anima Prime
Fight!

Do you care to elaborate why? The streetfighter one came up twice, but I have no idea why it is considered good (not because i think it is not; i just don't know anything about it).

skyth
2013-09-12, 05:27 AM
While I am a fan of ICE's *Master systems, for combat, I prefer ICE's Hero system, especially Champions. Hits are on a 3d6, with 3 automatically hitting and 18 automatically missing. So it has the chance of anyone hitting or missing anything, but smaller than on a d20 system. To hit is Dex and skill based, whereas damage is strength versus armor based. (D&D/Rolemaster have strength bothin increasing hitting power and damage dealt).

It's also one of the few hex-based as opposed to square-based games :)

Emmerask
2013-09-12, 05:50 AM
The TDE system requires the use of the game's special abilities. This prroblem is basically inexistent for groups who know how the basics work.


Afaik there are not that many parry reduction abilities.
There is feint which reduces enemies pa by the at reduction you make (not useable with some 2 handers).
Then there is the flame sword which can be created with pa reduction (1 for every 3 zfw* spend)
and then there is a crit ie you rolled a 1 which reduces parry by half.

The main problem in tde is that no matter how well made your attack roll it is easy to just parry/evade or even disengage (if the enemy converts his pa to at). I think it would have been much better if some value of the remaining at was reduced from the parry
ie
you have at 16 rolled a 6 now the parry is reduced by 5 (half remaining points) or somesuch
and similar for maneuvers only that the reduction is also added with half.

That way you would not have hour long fights against a few enemies.


In its current form tde is likely one of the longest duration combat systems out there, even rolemaster which some have complaint about resolves combats faster ^^
Dont get me wrong I love tde but really not for its combat, its an awesome setting (there is NOTHING which even comes close to the depth and detail it has) and for the stories which are also great... but the combat frankly sucks ^^

Black Jester
2013-09-12, 06:35 AM
Afaik there are not that many parry reduction abilities.
There is feint which reduces enemies pa by the at reduction you make (not useable with some 2 handers).

You mean the categories of weapons generally considered the worst in game, which cannot be parried by light weapons anyway and breaks several high defense strategies by default? Yeah, sorry, you don't want to be too much of a one trick pony and it's usually helpful to learn more than one weapon skill.

Any weapon that can't use feints can use counterattack. Counterattacks with high damage (and preferably high reach) weapons are awesome, almost gamebreakingly good. Okay, yes, it doesn't allow you to overcome their defense, but if any of those idiots attack you, you punish them. So, they either don't attack you or they do attack you and take more damage than you do. You win either way.

... or you make it a sport, switch to full defense/ superior parry and build up momentum with one spectacular defense after another until you have your opponent outmaneuvered and than kill him with the Feint/targeted strike combo and watch him bleed to death (in case you don't want to play the heavy armored guy with the great weapon).

.. or you are so good, that you can wait until your opponent misses without requiring your reaction and then immediately switch to attack and strike him while his defenses are down. It is hilarious (and can be combined with any other tactics)

... or you learn to break the action economy and get that nice extra attack after your opponent ha no reaction left. Difficult against shield users, though.





The main problem in tde is that no matter how well made your attack roll it is easy to just parry/evade or even disengage (if the enemy converts his pa to at). I think it would have been much better if some value of the remaining at was reduced from the parry
ie
you have at 16 rolled a 6 now the parry is reduced by 5 (half remaining points) or somesuch
and similar for maneuvers only that the reduction is also added with half.

Again, the long fights are mostly an issue with players who don't understand how the system works (or think that AT/PA 20/20 is high). It is an absolute non-issue in groups who have internalized the rules (after all, the first true hit can easily decide the outcome of the whole fight).
I vastly prefer a system where planning and a player's tactical decisions have weight to one dedicated to randomness. The decisions of a player should have some weight weight compared to the result of a die. Your system would greatly reduce the tactical options of any fight an that would make the game a lot less bearable.

CombatOwl
2013-09-12, 04:47 PM
I'd put another vote in for GURPS. Especially when it comes to modern and science fiction settings--the gun rules for GURPS are just so much better, and the action economy is better suited. Now, if only they'd make a Vehicles book for 4th edition...

Honestly, getting into a fight really should be considered an option of last resort, and GURPS combat is deadly enough to reinforce that idea.

Fri
2013-09-12, 08:23 PM
I like Legends of the Wulin. The editing of the book leaves a lot to be desired and some things are unclear, but it manages to create a system that's narratively AND mechanically interesting, with lots of options and cool attacks to choose from every turn. And it's decently well-balanced, too.

I must agree with this. I don't even understand LotW that well, but I must agree that the combat system is very cool and satisfying. And even better, you roll a buttload of dice when attacking too! No really, it's not ironic, rolling a lot of dice is always satisfying. And even better, most of the time you don't have to add up or subtract them.