Planar Shepherd wild shaping

[ahnbalto]

Hello there

I am playing a druid in an Eberron, core only campaign, where i am now druid 6/ planar shepherd 6. Now according to FoE at 3rd level i gain the ability to wild shape into a magical beast. as a plane I chose Lamannia, the twilight forest.

According to ECS pg. 97, Lamannia is home to Celestial and fiendish animals.
We are currently going to the Demon Wastes to Ashkatala.
I want to wild shape into a celestial animal, to be precise, a magebred ghost tiger( DM has allowed it)

The question is: if I wild shape into a Celestial magebred ghost tiger, how do I apply the damage reduction you get from the celestial template, do I look at the tiger's base HD or at my own HD, this would also apply for the spell resistance.

I thank you for answering my question, and if anything stated above is in conflict with the rules, I will remove it immediately

[sleepyphoenixx]

You use your own HD. The only thing that the animals base HD influence is wether you can shape into the form at all.

[Urpriest]

You use your own HD. The only thing that the animals base HD influence is wether you can shape into the form at all.

Ehh, sort of.

Suffice it to say that "use your own HD" or "use your effective wildshaping level" are the two cleanest answers. In reality, many of these benefits are based on racial HD, which you have none of, so you should either get the same ability as the base animal (based on its HD) or get nothing at all (since you have RHD 0). I'd pretty much always rule it as going with your wildshaping level, but be aware that that's not really RAW.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The celestial template only mentions HD. Others may be different but in this case the RAW are pretty clear.

[Urpriest]

The celestial template only mentions HD. Others may be different but in this case the RAW are pretty clear.

Ah, then that's probably true in this case. Pegging it to the HD of the creature that actually has the celestial template would be an arguable, but not especially well-supported, interpretation.

[Rhatahema]

Well, Wild Shape normally doesn't grant access to an animal's extraordinary special qualities. The planar shepherd does gain that ability, but only at level 9 and only with elementals and outsiders. You could gain access via the enhance wild shape spell, but that's Spell Compendium, not core.

Regardless, unlike spell resistance and energy resistance, DR #/magic is a Su ability (3.5 FAQ, pg.96), so you won't gain access to that in any case.

As far as the spell resistance and energy resistance go, I'm not aware of an official answer. I had always ruled that the DCs of special attacks based on HD advanced according to the druid's HD, rather than being locked in at the animal's HD. But that's not written anywhere, and with qualities acquired from a template, it's even less certain. So it might just be something to work out with your DM.

[ahnbalto]

Thanks for the answers, I will discuss it with the DM as to how he wants to handle it. I will presume for now based on your answers to use the HD from the animal

just a different thought as to something that I see is possible, but would not allow as a wild shape is: wild shape into a Horrid animal, which according to ECS is still an animal even though lorewise they are magically altered beasts, and then apply the Fiendish template. So you would end up with for example a Fiendish Horrid Ape, or a Fiendish Horrid Magebred Ghost Tiger, just because the name is so long.
To me this is purely RAW, but might be that i'm not that good of judge on this

[bekeleven]

Rules to wild shape. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528526/updated_Master_of_Many_Forms_Bible__official_wild_ shape_rules)

[Urpriest]

Thanks for the answers, I will discuss it with the DM as to how he wants to handle it. I will presume for now based on your answers to use the HD from the animal

just a different thought as to something that I see is possible, but would not allow as a wild shape is: wild shape into a Horrid animal, which according to ECS is still an animal even though lorewise they are magically altered beasts, and then apply the Fiendish template. So you would end up with for example a Fiendish Horrid Ape, or a Fiendish Horrid Magebred Ghost Tiger, just because the name is so long.
To me this is purely RAW, but might be that i'm not that good of judge on this

That is certainly not RAW, since Horrid is a template. You only get to add the templates the PrC allows, not other random templates.

[ahnbalto]

I'm sorry I cannot view that page.

Maybe I should make my point clearer: as a planar shepherd, let's say at level 9, you could wild shape into a Fiendish creature, a template on any animal.

So for example it could be a Fiendish Tiger, now according to ECS Horrid animals are still just animals, so we could go to Fiendish Horrid Tiger.

The magebred ghost tiger from 5 Nations is also considered according to it's entry as an animal, if I continue with this we end up with a Fiendish Horrid Magebred ghost Tiger.

Again, I think the above is purely going by RAW, where I will also admit that books contradict each other. I might be mistaken or reading the rules wrong

[Urpriest]

I'm sorry I cannot view that page.

Maybe I should make my point clearer: as a planar shepherd, let's say at level 9, you could wild shape into a Fiendish creature, a template on any animal.

So for example it could be a Fiendish Tiger, now according to ECS Horrid animals are still just animals, so we could go to Fiendish Horrid Tiger.

The magebred ghost tiger from 5 Nations is also considered according to it's entry as an animal, if I continue with this we end up with a Fiendish Horrid Magebred ghost Tiger.

Again, I think the above is purely going by RAW, where I will also admit that books contradict each other. I might be mistaken or reading the rules wrong

Ok, re-reading Planar Shepherd again, the wording is a bit odd, and there are two interpretations:

1. You can wild shape into magical beasts, including magical beasts that became magical beasts as a result of adding a template. Note that this also means you effectively get Vermin Wild Shape for free, in addition to unlimited template-stacking cheese as long as the final template ends up turning the creature into a magical beast.

2. You can wild shape into magical beasts. In addition, you can wild shape into your normal options, but with a single template to turn them into a magical beast. This is I think the intent, and a more balanced interpretation, but it does involve inferring some text that isn't there.

So RAW, you probably can template-stack away, and you don't need to start with an animal in the first place, you just need to end up as a magical beast. But that's kind of unplayable, since in addition to Horrid and Magebred (and Warbeast) you have Paragon.

[ahnbalto]

Exactly what I meant Urpriest. I wouldn't template stack like that, because I would find it lame for myself and boring for the group.

1. If this were the intended version, a druid would have unlimited power in wild shaping a bit comparable to MoMF, but still with spell progression.

2. This one sounds more reasonable in that you are only allowed exactly what the text means, as the text also mentions native to your chosen plane. Giving a Celestial or fiendish template to any animal is already a powerful option.

Thanks for the advice about this, it'll help me limit myself so as not to make it cheesy:smallsmile: