The age-long Argument

[People Wonder]

So I have been constantly arguing with a friend of mine about something that I certainly believe everybody feels the same way about, and that is how cool gnomes actually are

I laugh at gnomes and say that they are just small, annoying, worthless eyesores that for some reason are still being used universally through all games.

Just wanted to know how many people feel on this topic

[Hiro Protagonest]

I thought this was gonna be about cats and dogs, or maybe steak and chicken. But no, it had to be about gnomes.

Garden gnomes are bad, D&D gnomes are good. End of topic.

[Castaras]

I hate gnomes.

Small irritating little creatures that have no need to be in the normal set of fantasy races. You want a technological race? You have the dwarves. You want little people? You have the halflings/hobbits. They serve no extra purpose except to be irritating and bring up images of garden lawn ornaments with little red hats.

Oh, and to also be the ammo for the Gnome Punting contests.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by People Wonder
I laugh at gnomes and say that they are just small, annoying, worthless eyesores that for some reason are still being used universally through all games.


Originally Posted by Castaras
I hate gnomes. Small irritating little creatures that have no need to be in the normal set of fantasy races.... They serve no extra purpose except to be irritating....

Wow. And here I thought I was the only one.

When I first started playing 3.5, the gnome (Halfpintus irritans) was the one race I couldn't make sense of. The others were thoroughly familiar to me from the early years of D&D, and from Tolkien before that; but the gnome had no precedent I could see, no redeeming talents apart from a mild facility with illusions, and absolutely no point to them whatsoever as a separate race.

I detest them. I do not use them.

I also don't like bards.



...So of course, a player came to me wanting a gnome bard.

:smallmad:

[Eldan]

Gnomes are in Tolkien. He also calls them Noldor. They are elves.

Gnomes are in D&D because for some reason, their dwarves were made big and sturdy, instead of small, sneaky and magical as they are in pretty much any myth I can think of. Especially their illusion bonus makes them perfect to represent mythological dwarves.

Anyway. D&D gnomes? The only thing given is their stats. They are small, hardy and have some spells. I see nothing to hate there. Everything beyond that is in how you play them.

[LOTRfan]

Guys, you're going about them all wrong. They should bring up images of goofy lawn ornaments. You should picture them in goofy clothing, doing goofy things. That's what they're meant for. Ham it up as much as possible. :smalltongue:

[Haruki-kun]

Guys, you're going about them all wrong. They should bring up images of goofy lawn ornaments. You should picture them in goofy clothing, doing goofy things. That's what they're meant for. Ham it up as much as possible. :smalltongue:

I don't like goofy lawn ornaments. I'll let the occasional flamingo slide, but no gnomes, thank you. =I

[HalfTangible]

So I have been constantly arguing with a friend of mine about something that I certainly believe everybody feels the same way about, and that is how cool gnomes actually are

I laugh at gnomes and say that they are just small, annoying, worthless eyesores that for some reason are still being used universally through all games.

Just wanted to know how many people feel on this topic

I thought this was gonna be pirates and ninjas :smallfrown:

I wasn't aware this was a thing, honestly :smallconfused: Personally I found their presence a little odd, since they seemed to be Halflings with less hairy feet and I didn't care much for halflings anyway... buuuuut I never looked too deep into them, they could be much more interesting than i give them credit for.

[Remmirath]

I don't have a problem with gnomes at all, as simply a species or even so much as presented in the various Player's Handbooks.

I dislike how they are often played, though, to the extent that I admit that I tend to groan inwardly a little whenever I realise that somebody is playing one. However, I do wait and hear out what the character actually is. It's always a bad sign if they have that particular sort of "generic mad funny gnome" name, but I've also seen a few interesting, different, and well-played gnomes over the years.

I actually have more of a problem with halflings in D&D. Either they end up being just hobbits, which I usually don't feel belong in other settings and then I get bothered about it, or they tend to devolve into an entire species of criminals, which is strange.

In both cases it's all in the playing of them, but when creating settings and so forth for campaigns I'll almost always leave both of them out, although the halflings are the first to the chopping block.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Remmirath
I dislike how they are often played, though, to the extent that I admit that I tend to groan inwardly a little whenever I realise that somebody is playing one.

I once suffered through a very, very long session in which one guy insisted on playing his gnome with a high, squeaky voice, sort of a false falsetto.

Constantly. The entire session. That was one campaign I didn't join.



Also, since the DM hadn't gotten around to approving my own hoped-for character, I was stuck playing another gnome.

A female gnome. That the guy with the squeaky voice kept hitting on.

:smallfurious:

[Coidzor]

Gnomes: At least they're not elves. :smallamused: Elves: At least they're not kender. Kender: They taste good with a bit of Carolina Barbecue Sauce.


I once suffered through a very, very long session in which one guy insisted on playing his gnome with a high, squeaky voice, sort of a false falsetto.

Constantly. The entire session. That was one campaign I didn't join.

Also, since the DM hadn't gotten around to approving my own hoped-for character, I was stuck playing another gnome.

A female gnome. That the guy with the squeaky voice kept hitting on.

:smallfurious:

There comes a time in every man's life where he has to express his condolences to another man for not having gone through puberty yet, but to emphasize the importance in holding out hope that, one day, with medical assistance, it may yet come.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

So I have been constantly arguing with a friend of mine about something that I certainly believe everybody feels the same way about, and that is how cool gnomes actually are

I laugh at gnomes and say that they are just small, annoying, worthless eyesores that for some reason are still being used universally through all games.

Just wanted to know how many people feel on this topic

o.o What

We're the best race. Gnomes are to halflings as elves are to humans. We're fun-loving, and mystical, and most of all happy. Most races aren't happy. Therefore, gnomes are winning at life. Think about it. O.O

[Rosstin]

I just want to pipe in for monster rights here.

Look at all these pink people things in these players handbooks. Humans. Elves. Halflings. What's with all of these pink-skinned tiny people? Where is the love for the green, the furry, the feathered? Check the forgettable apes at the door.

One good thing about 4e, they gave us some monster races in the default books.

[The Rose Dragon]

Considering that without gnomes the whole world's economy would collapse, I'm all for gnomes. Go Zurich!

[Eldan]

Heh. THere's of course that, too.

Though I agree with Aster to a degree: too many humanoids. I can see maybe two as justified, if they are a bit different. But there's hundreds of them in D&D, even if a lot of them aren't apes in the strictest sense.

Why does every intelligent thing have to have a spine and four limbs, or six limbs if two are wings?

Anyway, seems to me as if most people have a problem with players, not the race. The kind of player who plays a gnome with a squeaky voice would also play a woman with a squeaky voice. Or an over-the-top camp gay elf. Or a naked drunk dwarf sumo wrestler. Or really, anything silly that's annoying to everyone else at the table.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldan
Why does every intelligent thing have to have a spine and four limbs...?

Because it was tetrapod vertebrates who wrote the game, for other tetrapod vertebrates playing it.

You...you notochordist.

:smalltongue:

[Eldan]

I'm not a notochordist. I just think that just because the book was written by chordates, not everyone has to play one. It's about equality! :smalltongue:

Brb, writing up humanoid hagfish.

[Grinner]

Why does every intelligent thing have to have a spine and four limbs, or six limbs if two are wings?

I've actually got a couple of theories on that, each suitable for a different genre.

For fantasy, it's because gods are unimaginative narcissists. For sci-fi, you can go the way of evolution and posit that bipedalism is the most efficient form for a sapient, tool-using organism.

Practically, it's just as Palanan said, and the same reason why every setting focuses on or at least includes humans; that's what's easy to write.

I used that semicolon correctly, right?

[Ashtagon]

So I have been constantly arguing with a friend of mine about something that I certainly believe everybody feels the same way about, and that is how cool gnomes actually are

I laugh at gnomes and say that they are just small, annoying, worthless eyesores that for some reason are still being used universally through all games.

Just wanted to know how many people feel on this topic

Gnomes have lairs. That makes them 20% cooler.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Grinner
Practically, it's just as Palanan said, and the same reason why every setting focuses on or at least includes humans; that's what's easy to write.

I used that semicolon correctly, right?

You did, at least for American English. The British tend to use semicolons in front of what I consider orphaned little sentence fragments.


Originally Posted by Eldan
Anyway, seems to me as if most people have a problem with players, not the race.

Probably true in part, although I disliked the 3.5 gnomes long, long before I ever saw one played.

They're just...annoying. And pointless.



But then, I like elves, which is Playground heresy.

:smalltongue:

[Lateral]

Eh. Every race is whatever fluff you want it to be. Gnomes in Eberron are completely awesome. Lawn gnomes are annoying. If someone's players don't have the imagination to play a gnome as anything other than a high-pitched, squeaky pain in the butt, then it's not the race's fault, it's the players'- same goes for people who can't imagine drow as anything other than Drizzt clones or people who always make the exact same Scottish dwarf PC.

I mean, I love D&D gnomes, both whisper and non, although I rarely get to play the latter. Still, two of my favorite PCs of all time were gnomes. (Granted, one was a whisper gnome and one was half-succubus, but still.)

[rs2excelsior]

I once read a fantasy series in which the gnomes were twisted, vicious, evil things.

The evil warlord (well, actually, kinda-evil-but-for-a-good-cause protagonist) associated with a demon that ate souls. He asked the demon what gnome tasted like. The demon reacted with confusion.

For what it's worth.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I once read a fantasy series in which the gnomes were twisted, vicious, evil things.

So they were lawn gnomes?

[Coidzor]

So they were lawn gnomes?

Lawn gnomes are just corporate shills, silly. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svxA9ICSfn4) :smalltongue: So, yes.

[Mauve Shirt]

Gnomes are what you play if you want to play a Keebler elf. Keebler elves being neither elves, halflings nor dwarves.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Gnomes are fine. Less muscular and war like than dwarves, more magical than halflings, and no where near as annoying as kenders.

It's all in how you play them. Tinker gnomes can have a cool steampunk vibe, or be annoying contraption makers. Nature gnomes can have any animal as a companion, and tend to think further outside the box than the typical wolf or bear.

Only one race in D&D ever really got under my skin, and I pretty much quit for a long stretch after several irritating sessions with players who didn't understand the difference between childlike curiosity and childish annoyance of your fellow players.

[RandomNPC]

As soon as I got the pathfinder book I was done with them. half-orcs are big and mean looking, elves are sleek and muscular, dwarves sturdy and strong, and gnomes are purple.....

(The following rant is D&D based)
Here's what I see though. Elves are geared more for arcane magic and dex based physical things. Dwarves are more about the physical power with the occasional divine caster. It's all in the stats and racial abilities. Then Tolkien goes and coins the halfling, smaller and sneakier, definately less geared for magic and more for physical, but stealthy while they do it. So gnomes come along as the small playable race that's geared towards magic, to counter the halflings physical side.

but purple.....

[Hiro Protagonest]

As soon as I got the pathfinder book I was done with them. half-orcs are big and mean looking, elves are sleek and muscular, dwarves sturdy and strong, and gnomes are purple.....

(The following rant is D&D based)
Here's what I see though. Elves are geared more for arcane magic and dex based physical things. Dwarves are more about the physical power with the occasional divine caster. It's all in the stats and racial abilities. Then Tolkien goes and coins the halfling, smaller and sneakier, definately less geared for magic and more for physical, but stealthy while they do it. So gnomes come along as the small playable race that's geared towards magic, to counter the halflings physical side.

but purple.....

Since when are they purple? The only thing that comes to mind when I think "Pathfinder gnome" is the druid.

[Lateral]

Since when are they purple? The only thing that comes to mind when I think "Pathfinder gnome" is the druid.
Well, aside from Mauve. :smalltongue:

[Jade_Dragon]

1. Gnomes are awesome.:smallannoyed:

2. I'm a monster! RAWR! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UqFPujRZWo):smallwink:

[Mauve Shirt]

Hey, purple is awesome! :smallmad:

[Lateral]

Hey, purple is awesome! :smallmad:
Seconded. Purple is best color.

...If it weren't Gnome Week, I'd be switching to Evil!Lateral right about now.

[Hyena]

There are also kenders. They are worse.

[Coidzor]

Seconded. Purple is best color.

...If it weren't Gnome Week, I'd be switching to Evil!Lateral right about now.

I prefer Violet myself. Sometimes Magenta. Wine's always nice, of course. :smalltongue:


There are also kenders. They are worse.

I want to meet Margaret Weiss, Tracy Hickman, and Laura Hickman for no other reason than to ask them why kender seemed like a good idea at the time. A distance second is why the most famous one is named after David Hasslehoff and why everyone sort of awkwardly shuffles their feet and looks away when anyone expresses curiosity about this fact.

[Knaight]

Small irritating little creatures that have no need to be in the normal set of fantasy races. You want a technological race? You have the dwarves. You want little people? You have the halflings/hobbits. They serve no extra purpose except to be irritating and bring up images of garden lawn ornaments with little red hats.

I'd take this a step further. You want a technological race? You have humans, make a culture. You want little people? You have humans, some of them are short. You want an insectoid near-hive mind with drastically different physiological differences? At this point, something other than humans might actually be necessary.

[Ashtagon]

I give my game races (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=5744&start=0) the following hats (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats):


Humans: survivors, diehard determinators.
Dwarves: The rock, the noble glacier, the warrior.
Elves: Fragile speedster.
Halflings: Lucky, sling-users, foodies (both as cooks and farmers).
Gnomes: Fey with extreme environment adaptability, caffeinated enthusiasts.
Orcs: Noble savages
Goblins: Artful dodgers, insane craftsmen, risk-takers.


Basically, my gnomes are weirder (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurGnomesAreWeirder).

[Eldan]

I think it's just funny that everyone here associates gnomes with lawn ornaments. In German, they are called Gartenzwerge, i.e. Garden Dwarves. So up until about the time Lord of the Rings was in the cinemas, a majority of people around here would still think of dwarves as lawn ornaments and gnomes/kobolds as small mischievous spirits.

[Telonius]

You want a technological race? You have the dwarves.

It isn't just about technology. It's technology plus a warped sense of humor and a tendency to chaos. Dwarvish culture really doesn't lend itself to Mad Science; Gnomes are practically raised on the stuff. A Dwarf might build some fantastic contraption on the order of his King, to honor Moradin, or as part of a centuries-long plan of vengeance. A Gnome will do it just to see if he can.

Most of the magic items that you see, and think, "What lunatic would ever come up with something like this?" Most likely it's a Gnome. Ivory Goats? Gnome. Apparatus of Kwalish? Folding Boat? Trident of Fish Command? Gnome, Gnome, and Gnome.

[Yora]

Kenders are an abomination that needs to be killed with fire.

Non-prankster gnomes are actually really cool and much better than halflings. They can even replace dwarves and occupy that fictional niche with something else than racist alcoholic scottish-viking miners.

And even total badassery:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/Monster2_gallery/90.jpg

Gnomes are fine. Less muscular and war like than dwarves, more magical than halflings, and no where near as annoying as kenders.
That's what I tend to go with. Earth-themed craftsmen who are neither violent drunks nor hyper cleptomanics, but instead use their brains.

I want to meet Margaret Weiss, Tracy Hickman, and Laura Hickman for no other reason than to ask them why kender seemed like a good idea at the time.
The problem goes much deeper. At what time was Comic Relief Character ever a good idea?

Kenders are a race of Rob Schneiders.

[Coidzor]

Non-prankster gnomes are actually really cool and much better than halflings. They can even replace dwarves and occupy that fictional niche with something else than racist alcoholic scottish-viking miners.

Ever since I discovered that Shetland and Orkney are communities of Scottish-Vikings I've always wondered what their accents actually sound like and what their culture really looked like.

I actually liked the pranking due to the fanon I came up with to explain it. Since gnomes aren't exactly physical powerhouses and pranking involves a lot of sneaking about it seemed like a community-wide constant exercise (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAIpfDsM3EM)and drilling for special operations and black ops. Which goes in part springs from encountering the reinterpretation of gnomes for the Zilargans in Eberron. Definitely toned it down, though I did make it part of their rite of passage into adulthood.


The problem goes much deeper. At what time was Comic Relief Character ever a good idea?

Kenders are a race of Rob Schneiders.

You've managed to somehow make Kenders even more horrifying to me. :smalleek: I didn't think that was possible. Bravo. I think. :smallconfused:

[Yoink]

Gnomes may seem a tad superfluous between halflings and dwarves, but a gnomish barbarian gains instant respect from me.

(Also at least they are a weird purplish colour. I guess that makes them slightly more interesting. :smalltongue:)

[Ravens_cry]

There are also kenders. They are worse.
Gnomes, I can like for some whimiscal, mage-punk goodness.
Or outright, uncanny valley weirdness in case of Golarion's gnomes.
Either way, fun times, especially if dwarves are more traditionalist and conservative as opposed to beardy engineers.
Kender though, kender can go die in a fire.
Mary Sue,built in with characteristics sure to annoy any party, explicitly stated that they would be killed by all the races they tick off (read:everyone!) were it not for the intervention of their goddess,kender!
I feel the same way about kender that Klingons feel about Tribbles: Kill. On. Sight!:smallfurious:

[Beige Dragon]

Personally, I like the "Kind of short, magic-y and mystic" gnomes instead of the "Dwarves but smaller, cone hatted" gnomes. It really depends on which one on if they are or are not in fact cool.

[Mauve Shirt]

My half-platypus gnome factotum is pretty awesome.

[Eonas]

Conceptually they're great: small, wizened illusionists and tinker/toymakers. How cool is that? I haven't really seen any particularly interesting portrayals of them, though.

[Kajhera]

One of my favored characters was a whisper gnome ... I didn't have the cultures down very straight then and she was apparently a male orc societally though.

Really, though, the more I read into gnomish culture, the neater they seem. I'm starting from a point of loving bards, illusionists, and shadowcraft mages, should point out. I love kobolds too though, so I do have an idea or two how to hate the untrustworthy spawn of Garl. :smallamused:

A fleshed-out gnome tends to be an interesting - and tasty - character.

[AceAwesome96]

Two members of my party are Gnomes, and I think they're okay. (I don't know if non-Pathfinder gnomes are any good though)
I prefer them to Halflings, in my opinion.

[Jay R]

How cool are sports cars?

Well, what sports car? Designed by whom? Driven by whom? On what road?

-------------------------------------------------------

How cool are gnomes?

Well, what gnome? Designed by whom? Played by whom? In what setting?

[hamishspence]

Brb, writing up humanoid hagfish.

Stormwrack did that (sort of) - called anguillians. If not exactly hagfish, they do at least resemble lampreys.

[Thunderfist12]

There are also kenders. They are worse.

You have no idea. My brother plays kenders really... really... well, accurately.


Kenders are an abomination that needs to be killed with fire.

I did exactly that to his last kender.:smallamused:

Fireball, full area of effect, myself and the party included.


Kenders are a race of Rob Schneiders.

:smallbiggrin:

[Nightgaun7]

I despise gnomes. They are never good. The sooner we cleanse our games of them, the better.

[Eldan]

Stormwrack did that (sort of) - called anguillians. If not exactly hagfish, they do at least resemble lampreys.

It doesn't count if they don't have the ability to create a few hundred gallons of slime.

[Coidzor]

^: *And it sails, Whoosh, over my head. Lousy insufficient backing in marine biology*


I despise gnomes. They are never good. The sooner we cleanse our games of them, the better.

Cleansing (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gNX79kywwY), you say? :smallamused:

[Doc Kraken]

Wha'? More o' yeh cultists disparagin' my wee men? :smallfurious:



Stormwrack did that (sort of) - called anguillians. If not exactly hagfish, they do at least resemble lampreys.

Close enough to be awesome.

[thamolas]

Gnomes are awesome.

http://youtu.be/YKnHbPkE2FU

Garden gnomes are cooler than the "dark & mysterious" cop-out.

[BWR]

The "Top Ballista" supplement gives all the reason necessary to support the existence of gnomes in D&D.

[Ravens_cry]

I did exactly that to his last kender.:smallamused:

Fireball, full area of effect, myself and the party included.

Well, to quote Forrest Gump, "And I said, that's good. One less thang.":smallamused:

[Maquise]

In my games, gnomes dress in brightly colored cloaks that conceal their whole bodies (in fact, they never let anyone else see what they look like), travel from place to place selling strange and unusual magic items. Basically, they're brightly colored jawas.

It works for me.

[RandomNPC]

Okay, kind of pinkish purple, but the elf, human, dwarf, half-elf, and half-orc all have a serious look to them, like you may be tempted to play a slightly more serious game, maybe actually try some role play this time. Then you look to the gnome and go "Oh, hey! a dynamite juggling psychopath! I'm in, guys, I love this game!"

Spoiler contains larger image. Ignore the halfling.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XTV5cLDJWUo/TG6oX-OO3GI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/UlQFTuNfbpY/s400/PathfinderRPG-Core-Rulebook-21.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XTV5cLDJWUo/TG6oX-OO3GI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/UlQFTuNfbpY/s1600/PathfinderRPG-Core-Rulebook-21.jpg


I keep them around in my games because you need a good joke from time to time, and it's never the ones you expect to deliver the joke. They're the most serious race in my games, not a single intentional pun yet.

[Mauve Shirt]

Having just played my gnomish cleric for real for the first time, it is amazingly fun being that tiny.
Also my gnomish wizard cousin knocked out a giant with telekinetic fist.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Okay, kind of pinkish purple, but the elf, human, dwarf, half-elf, and half-orc all have a serious look to them, like you may be tempted to play a slightly more serious game, maybe actually try some role play this time. Then you look to the gnome and go "Oh, hey! a dynamite juggling psychopath! I'm in, guys, I love this game!"

Spoiler contains larger image. Ignore the halfling.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XTV5cLDJWUo/TG6oX-OO3GI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/UlQFTuNfbpY/s400/PathfinderRPG-Core-Rulebook-21.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_XTV5cLDJWUo/TG6oX-OO3GI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/UlQFTuNfbpY/s1600/PathfinderRPG-Core-Rulebook-21.jpg


I keep them around in my games because you need a good joke from time to time, and it's never the ones you expect to deliver the joke. They're the most serious race in my games, not a single intentional pun yet.

I guess it depends on their hair color:
http://www.paperspencils.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/PZO9011-Druid.jpg

[gurgleflep]

Well, I only read the first page but from what I saw gnomes are hated by a lot of people.
I would like to join the ranks of those who hate them with an exception - the svirfneblin. I don't know why, but they actually caught my interest despite being gnomes themselves. They're far grittier, kinda dwarf-like, and just generally awesome.

Edit:

Kenders are a race of Rob Schneiders.

Can I sig this?

[Morph Bark]

I've actually got a couple of theories on that, each suitable for a different genre.

For fantasy, it's because gods are unimaginative narcissists. For sci-fi, you can go the way of evolution and posit that bipedalism is the most efficient form for a sapient, tool-using organism.

There's even a scientific term for it: Convergent evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution).

[Ravens_cry]

There's even a scientific term for it: Convergent evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution).
True, the laws of physics are the same everywhere, and nature seems to fall into certain patterns. Still, even by the farthest stretch of the imagination, this means far more differences than is typical for humanoid aliens. Look at sharks, tuna, dolphins and the ichthyosaurus. Similar problems that resulted in similar, but not identical, solutions. On the other hand, look at squid, plesiosaurs, and some of the earlier whales. They also fill or filled the niches of marine predator, yet their form was very different.