3.5 Warshaper Druid build help

[knexkid42]

Alright guys, this is a first run on a Druid for me and I'm looking for some advice on this idea. So, our DM restricted us to the Player's Handbooks, Monster Manuals, DM Guides, all of the Complete books (Arcane, Warrior, etc.), and Arms and Armor 3.5 during our character creation. We got to start at 3rd level, but were also restricted on gold to only our 1st level starting gold plus about 20 extra gp. I managed to build a decent Druid with a Warbeast battle-trained wolf companion that outclassed my Druid in combat. My plan is to focus around Wild Shape once I get it and dive into Warshaper soon after.

Our DM's plan is to make the characters "find" different events that allow us to gain access to new books throughout the campaign. So I can post later if we get a new book available, but for now we're stuck with the list I mentioned. All advice is welcome.

[bekeleven]

also restricted on gold to only our 1st level starting gold plus about 20 extra gp.
Haha yeah, cause screw those overpowered melee fighters.


My plan is to focus around Wild Shape once I get it and dive into Warshaper soon after.
Here is my advice: if you do use warshaper, very carefully run it by your DM. Even if he approves it wholesale, don't use it up to its potential. It's one of the most broken non-casting classes that exists.

Other advice: Look into the Master of Many Forms and Nature's Warrior for wild shape fun.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Here is my advice: if you do use warshaper, very carefully run it by your DM. Even if he approves it wholesale, don't use it up to its potential. It's one of the most broken non-casting classes that exists.
Wha? It's nice, sure, but I wouldn't call it broken-- not since you're not actually progressing whatever ability you're using to qualify. Master of Many Forms is probably more powerful, though neither is as nasty as a caster.

[eggynack]

I'd advise just sticking with druid, because druids are pretty good at wild shape all on their own, and a bunch of other stuff besides. Also, your campaign is basically tailor made for druids. Seriously, a low gold world with a relatively small number of books which expands as the game progresses is basically a druid stomping ground.

[bekeleven]

Wha? It's nice, sure, but I wouldn't call it broken-- not since you're not actually progressing whatever ability you're using to qualify. Master of Many Forms is probably more powerful, though neither is as nasty as a caster.

At level 1 you gain the ability to grow arbitrary natural weapons as a move action.

Most conservative is you can only use attacks on existing limbs. Meaning that a normal human quasilycanthrope can enter warshaper immediately and pick up 2 appendage blades (ToM, Blade dancer, they're natural weapon raipers), a bite, a bore, tail slap, wings, 8 tentacles and N slams, where N is 1, 2, 12, or infinity - keep reading below to see why. You can also pick up 2 more appendage blades if your DM doesn't ask how you walk, or 2 claws otherwise, although he may rule you can only use them pouncing.

Slightly more liberal, but still in the domain of RAW, you can only grow attacks that other creatures have - meaning you can grab 4 claws, 11 bites, a tail slap, wings, a gore attack, a horn attack too if your DM reads 3.0 material, 12 slams, 8 size-appropriate tentacles, 3 appendage blades (blade dancer from ToM, they're rapiers)... the list goes on. Nekomata2 said that there's a provision somewhere in the rules that you can't use most of these attacks even if you grow them, restricting you to the paragraph above.

But due to how it's written, you can actually just keep growing tentacles or slams all day. In the 15 minutes while your casters prepare spells, oh look, that's 150 tentacles. Make sure you ride on a horse when you travel, so you can grow another 600 per hour of overland travel and end up looking like this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=z-WdlueVOo0#t=3214).

Edit: I'd like to add that yes, it's still a downgrade from straight druid, because straight druid is tier 1 for a reason.

[knexkid42]

I guess I should point out that I am playing this as a Human Druid. As such, due to the wording of Warshaper, I could only use the Morphic Weapons ability during the time my character is Wild Shaped and those appendages disappear once the Wild Shape ends. Even if I were to bend around the wording, I also know that my DM would think of this once he reads it and tell me the exact same thing. So the game-breaking idea of just growing a ton of appendages during travel is a non-issue here.

[Rhatahema]

Warshaper offers no progression in spellcasting, animal companion, or wild shape. The benefits are nice, but it's a trade-off even compared to just wild shape progression. You're delaying large forms and higher HD forms. Between that and the buffs you'll get through spellcasting (see Enhance Wild Shape, 4th lvl, SpellComp), it's hard to justify dipping out. Nature's Warrior gets at the same idea with fewer sacrifices; I'd take levels in it and see how you feel about going warshaper after.



Most conservative is you can only use attacks on existing limbs. Meaning that a normal human quasilycanthrope can enter warshaper immediately and pick up 2 appendage blades (ToM, Blade dancer, they're natural weapon raipers), a bite, a bore, tail slap, wings, 8 tentacles and N slams, where N is 1, 2, 12, or infinity - keep reading below to see why.

Most conservative, your DM recognizes that the ability is poorly writen, breaks the game, and works with you to homebrew something sensible. That said, Wild Shape has an hours/druid level duration. So, in theory, you could spend an hours worth of move actions growing tentacles and then go on adventuring a few hours still. But this is something that no one does in real games.

[bekeleven]

Most conservative, your DM recognizes that the ability is poorly writen, breaks the game, and works with you to homebrew something sensible.
I hope I made it clear in my first post that I agree with this sentiment.

[Invader]

Regardless of how many appendages you grow it states you can make *a* natural attack. Nothing in the wording lends itself to make a dozen claw attacks.

[bekeleven]

Regardless of how many appendages you grow it states you can make *a* natural attack. Nothing in the wording lends itself to make a dozen claw attacks.Right. As a move action, I can grow a claw attack, which allows me to make a natural attack.

And as a move action I can grow a slam attack, which allows me to make a natural attack. And as a move action I can grow a slam attack, which allows me to make a natural attack. And as a move action I can grow a slam attack, which allows me to make a natural attack. And as a move action I can grow a slam attack, which allows me to make a natural attack. And as a move action I can grow a slam attack, which allows me to make a natural attack.

And as a move action...

Edit: that said, what you suggested is close enough to the original text to be a fair balance to the ability.

[Segev]

Yeah, "you can make a natural attack" does not say "you can't make more with other weapons." So for each weapon you grow, you can make a natural attack.

Grow a dozen weapons... each can make "a natural attack."

[Grod_The_Giant]

stuff
OK, if you interpret an ability in the most "prepare-to-dodge-flying-DMGs" way possible, the class breaks. If you read it in a more reasonable, actual-play fashion, then it's fine.

[eggynack]

OK, if you interpret an ability in the most "prepare-to-dodge-flying-DMGs" way possible, the class breaks. If you read it in a more reasonable, actual-play fashion, then it's fine.
It feels a lot like that's what he's saying, given that he advised running the class by the DM. That way, hurled books don't become a natural consequence of a completely reasonable interpretation of the rules.

[Invader]

It also doesn't state a duration for the appendage which leads itself to either "it lasts as long as I want and I can use it as much as I want" or it lasts for one round or one attack at which point you have the option to form another one. Which sounds more reasonable for a 5th level ability.

I would say while maybe technically it's RAW I know which interpretation I'd say is RAI.

[Krazzman]

Is the PHB2 counted as core? For this purpose or is it one of the unlockables?

About the growing of "a" Natural Attack... in one of my games the druid went warshaper once and despite not breaking it ran around with 2 claws and a bite nearly constantly due to her nature of wanting to maul faces without using Wild Shape. It was a crazy game where I even allowed a Frenzied Berserker marked by the Dragon Below and... sadly they never really got around to finish it and then I lost all notes about it and... well it went down the drain.

But the Main Cast was The Druid, a Stoner "Party" Cleric that drank everything, an Permanent Enlarged Warforged Paladin and the Berserker + an Artificer that wanted to build an Airship.

I would say to only take Warshaper up to level 3 or whereever he gets the fortification. If not going MoMF or staying straight druid.

In my eyes the Warshaper was not really meant for the Druid but more or less for Lycans or similar "Melees".

[Segev]

The primary limit one faces with the Warshaper's number of natural attacks is, basically, social acceptability. When you look like a hideous monster that is likely to eat the shepherd and scare off the sheep, you'll get reactions like one. This isn't bigotry so much as common sense; your average peasants and merchants run into scary monsters with varying regularity, but almost invariably such encounters end very poorly for them without strapping adventurers (or really well-paid guards) near-by to take care of the monstrosities.

And, despite jokes on the boards, the "typical" adventurer looks like the peasants and merchants do, not like the monsters do. Only when the adventurer starts throwing around his superpowers might he typically start seeming "monstrous," and by that point, he's doing so only in defense of the typical peasant or merchant.

The things that walk into town looking like monsters are usually going to act like monsters sooner rather than later, so townsfolk don't want them around and will find the nearest strapping adventurers to deal with it. And the innkeeper, no matter how open-minded, is still going to ask you to assume a more customer-friendly form so you don't scare his other customers away. Unless you're shelling out Adventurer levels of loot...which usually means you're paying as much for room and meal as others would for magic items. It's just easier to drop the extra natural attacks.

Sure, you can just put them up again tomorrow, but that does take time. And you reach a point of significantly diminishing returns, since you only NEED so many attacks before the extra rolling isn't really adding more damage.

[CIDE]

At level 1 you gain the ability to grow arbitrary natural weapons as a move action.

Most conservative is you can only use attacks on existing limbs. Meaning that a normal human quasilycanthrope can enter warshaper immediately and pick up 2 appendage blades (ToM, Blade dancer, they're natural weapon raipers), a bite, a bore, tail slap, wings, 8 tentacles and N slams, where N is 1, 2, 12, or infinity - keep reading below to see why. You can also pick up 2 more appendage blades if your DM doesn't ask how you walk, or 2 claws otherwise, although he may rule you can only use them pouncing.

Slightly more liberal, but still in the domain of RAW, you can only grow attacks that other creatures have - meaning you can grab 4 claws, 11 bites, a tail slap, wings, a gore attack, a horn attack too if your DM reads 3.0 material, 12 slams, 8 size-appropriate tentacles, 3 appendage blades (blade dancer from ToM, they're rapiers)... the list goes on. Nekomata2 said that there's a provision somewhere in the rules that you can't use most of these attacks even if you grow them, restricting you to the paragraph above.

But due to how it's written, you can actually just keep growing tentacles or slams all day. In the 15 minutes while your casters prepare spells, oh look, that's 150 tentacles. Make sure you ride on a horse when you travel, so you can grow another 600 per hour of overland travel and end up looking like this guy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=z-WdlueVOo0#t=3214).

Edit: I'd like to add that yes, it's still a downgrade from straight druid, because straight druid is tier 1 for a reason.


Uh...no. Not at all. It doesn't work that way at all. As it's worded you grow a tentacle. Next time you try to grow another tentacle it doesn't work (RAW) but your attempt to grow another one DOES increase the existing one a size category in damage. Which, again going by RAW would mean the same thing happens again when you try to grow another tentacle. Thus, rather than having infinite (or even any more than one of any type of natural weapon) you instead have one of each type of weapon with each of them colossus + in size.


Right. As a move action, I can grow a claw attack, which allows me to make a natural attack.

And as a move action I can grow a slam attack, which allows me to make a natural attack. And as a move action I can grow a slam attack, which allows me to make a natural attack. And as a move action I can grow a slam attack, which allows me to make a natural attack. And as a move action I can grow a slam attack, which allows me to make a natural attack. And as a move action I can grow a slam attack, which allows me to make a natural attack.

And as a move action...

Edit: that said, what you suggested is close enough to the original text to be a fair balance to the ability.

And it also states that if you try to grow a natural weapon your current form already has the existing one simply goes up a size category.

[Invader]

Uh...no. Not at all. It doesn't work that way at all. As it's worded you grow a tentacle. Next time you try to grow another tentacle it doesn't sn't work (RAW) but your attempt to grow another one DOES increase the existing one a size category in damage. Which, again going by RAW would mean the same thing happens again when you try to grow another tentacle. Thus, rather than having infinite (or even any more than one of any type of natural weapon) you instead have one of each type of weapon with each of them colossus + in size.



And it also states that if you try to grow a natural weapon your current form already has the existing one simply goes up a size category.

Actually that's not correct the either. It says the weapon deals damage as if it were one size bigger. It says nothing about the weapon actually getting bigger so after the initial bonus it wouldn't keep increasing.