(3.5) Gestalt wizard//psion - help please?

[gurgleflep]

I don't know if I'll ever get the chance to do so, but how good would such a combination be? As a group, we almost never multiclass or use PrCs and we've surely never gotten to do a gestalt campaign but I'd like to have a character planned for when/if it happens.
I wouldn't know where to begin in building such a character so I come to ya'll asking for help - the other couple of people I play with are typically a melee combatant and a rogue or a ranger (fighting from a distance) will (if this game is to happen) be playing a druid/rogue, so magic and psionics are almost never used so I'd have little to no help from my group.

We play with all sources but the various magazines because we've got little to no access to them - Homebrew, core, third party.... everything else is okay!

I guess I should start with the questions.
What races would be good for this? I'm usually the brute thug melee combatant so I wouldn't know where to begin with racial selection - usually it's anything flies though.
Which discipline would be good for this combination? Never having played with psionics or spellcasting, I know next to nothing about how they work.
Any templates I could use if we were to wind up starting at a higher level? I'm fond of things like the half-fiend, half-dragon, and half-illithid (c'mon, you know attacking people with your face noodles is cool!), but I'm pretty sure none of these would come in helpful for this.

[GreenETC]

This Gestalt Handbook should help. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239352)

But I would recommend ENTIRELY against what you are planning on doing. A Wizard and Psion both get bad BaB, d4 HD, 2+Int skills, good Will only, and both have to spend standard actions to "cast" things. You are doubling up so much and completely negating the entire point of gestalt: to shore up your weaknesses.

What you need is to pick Wizard or Psion and then pick a better BaB class that won't prevent you from casting (like barbarian does) and then go crazy. Duskblade//Wizard, Warblade//Psion, Ranger//Psion, Monk//Wizard, and even Swashbuckler//Wizard are better than Psion//Wizard, since you need less options and more passive abilities.

[herrhauptmann]

Pretty much what GreenETC said.

Active and passive side.
The active side is where your PrC usually go, and what you spend most of your feats on.
The passive side gives you what your active side lacks. Skills/bab/feats are common.

There's ways around action economy problems, particularly with access to both wizard and psion, but you have to expend resources on both of your sides to do this, meaning neither is passive.

With great skill, a character like this can do well in gestalt. But that's because you're gestalting two different high tier classes, not because your gestalt build is any good.

Here's a gestalt gish I've got. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=544474)
Wizard3/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/Incantatar3//Fighter6/Warblade6
My casting side is my active side for the most part as it gets the PrC, and while I use the melee side to boost my skill list, bab, feats, and saves.

I'm working on another one, zhentfighter9/PoT3//warlock8/hellfirewarlock3/binder1. This one, I'm actually focusing on melee side with a fear build, so warlock is my passive side. It gives me more abilities when I can't just terrify something.

[gurgleflep]

Okay so bad idea then! :smalleek: Between the two, I'd rather keep the psion - I have a better understanding of it.
Also, aren't their feats or something that allow casting and such while raging?
Edit: And what's a gish? I hear it a lot but have no clue what it means.

[Segev]

Psion//Wilder is actually fairly terrifying. 3/4 BAB, double power points per day, and Wild Surge, with Psion covering Wilder's big weakness: a lack of powers known. It's MAD, but only for 2 stats, and it's so very, very worth it.

[herrhauptmann]

Gish is a mix of arcane/melee classes. A character who uses both melee and magic like Red Mage from the final fantasy set. You've got a limited bab and CL, so you don't want to get into spell duels with enemy wizards. Nor should you be dishing out any spells that allow saves/SR, as your ability to beat either is lower than the party wizard.
Also, you should never be fighting unbuffed, as you've often got lower unbuffed HP/AC/BAB than the party fighter.

It's an old term from AD&D or earlier used for the Githyanki/Githzerai.


I know you can cast while raging, if playing as a rage mage. But that's all I can think of.


We do have one guy in the group playing a psion. I've no idea how he gets half of his tricks to work, but if he used them regularly, my character would get crushed in the ensuing arms race with the DM.
STP Erudite 9/Anarchic Initiate 3//Totemist 6/Barbarian 1/Thayan Gladiator 2/Warshaper 3

[gurgleflep]

Psion//Wilder is actually fairly terrifying. 3/4 BAB, double power points per day, and Wild Surge, with Psion covering Wilder's big weakness: a lack of powers known. It's MAD, but only for 2 stats, and it's so very, very worth it.

And I see they're also in the same book - looks like a fun combo :smallsmile:


Gish is a mix of arcane/melee classes. A character who uses both melee and magic like Red Mage from the final fantasy set. You've got a limited bab and CL, so you don't want to get into spell duels with enemy wizards. Nor should you be dishing out any spells that allow saves/SR, as your ability to beat either is lower than the party wizard.
Also, you should never be fighting unbuffed, as you've often got lower unbuffed HP/AC/BAB than the party fighter.

It's an old term from AD&D or earlier used for the Githyanki/Githzerai.


I know you can cast while raging, if playing as a rage mage. But that's all I can think of.


We do have one guy in the group playing a psion. I've no idea how he gets half of his tricks to work, but if he used them regularly, my character would get crushed in the ensuing arms race with the DM.
STP Erudite 9/Anarchic Initiate 3//Totemist 6/Barbarian 1/Thayan Gladiator 2/Warshaper 3

Thank you for explaining that :smallbiggrin:
Sad thing is, I've not heard of petty much any of those classes xD

Would something like a psychic barbarian (check my sig)/psion work? I'd have to find a way to cast while raging but it would be fun, especially if I could enter into the cerebral rager from Mindscapes: A Psion's Guide - that wouId be awesome!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A gish is a warrior+spellcaster who uses his spells to buff himself and spends most of his actions in combat making physical attacks.

If you want to go this route and stick with Psion, then I'd say go Psion//Warblade. But it looks like the rest of your party typically handles physical combat, so it's up to you to be Batman (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9749.0).

I'd go Psion//Factotum, pick Kineticist and take Font of Inspiration (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) at least three times. Something like the following:

Human, two flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)
1. Psion 1// Factotum 1, Psicrystal Affinity, Font of Inspiration x3, Overchannel
2. Psion 2// Factotum 2
3. Psion 3// Incarnate 1, Midnight Augmentation
4. Psion 4// Factotum 3
5. Psion 5// Factotum 4, Greater Animator (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a)
6. Anarchic Initiate 1// Factotum 5, Extend Power
7. Anarchic Initiate 2// Factotum 6
8. Anarchic Initiate 3// Factotum 7, Persistent Power (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/msrd/ArcanaOccupationsandFeats.rtf)*
9. Anarchic Initiate 4// Factotum 8, Quick Recovery
10. Psion 6// Chameleon 1
11. Psion 7// Chameleon 2
12. Anarchic Initiate 5// Factotum 9, Font of Inspiration
13. Anarchic Initiate 6// Factotum 10
14. Anarchic Initiate 7// Factotum 11
15. Paragnostic Apostle 1// Factotum 12, Font of Inspiration
16. Paragnostic Apostle 2// Factotum 13
17. Paragnostic Apostle 3// Factotum 14
18. Paragnostic Apostle 4// Factotum 15, Font of Inspiration
19. Paragnostic Apostle 5// Factotum 16
20. Anarchic Initiate 8// Factotum 17

*Persistent Power is from the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, it's still valid for 3.5 just like any other 3.0 content that never had a 3.5 version printed. At 8th level you'll pick Psychic Reformation for your new power and immediately manifest it to replace itself with a new power as well as replacing Overchannel with Persistent Power. At this level you'll get Wild Surge from Anarchic Initiate, so it will meet its own prerequisite for you and you no longer need Overchannel. Note that Quick Recovery (LoM) can be used to reduce Psychic Enervation to only costing you a move action.

The purpose of Incarnate and Midnight Augmentation is to invest two essentia into Bestow Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bestowPower.htm), modifying its augmentation as follows: "For every 1 additional power point you spend, the subject gains 2 additional power points." Once you hit manifester level 5 you can spend 5 pp to grant yourself 6 pp as often as you want, thus refilling your powerpoint total back to the max between encounters. With that and Persistent Power you can walk into every encounter fully buffed and with a full powerpoint pool to have your way with your opponents.

Keep Share Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePain.htm) active on your psicrystal so you take half damage from all sources. Its Hardness 8 will reduce every instance of damage it takes from Share Pain by that much regardless of the original attack's damage type. You can manifest Vigor and share it with the psicrystal just like any other buff for a nice hp cushion. Keep the psicrystal in a compartment on your person so opponents will never have line of sight/effect to it and cannot target it directly or hit it with area effects. You can even put a Healing Belt on the psicrystal and it can use it to heal you during combat when needed.

That bonus feat you get from Chameleon 2 can be anything you want each day depending on the situation. Put an item creation feat there for a few days while you make magic items. Use it to get Expanded Knowledge to gain a situational power that happens to be exactly what the party needs for the current adventure.

[herrhauptmann]

Pure Knowledge
[/thread]

My only caveat to all that he said just now:
If your group has a low optimization level, you might be drastically overpowered following that advice. So you can do all of that, just doesn't have to be done all at once.
Practical vs theoretical optimization.



Would something like a psychic barbarian (check my sig)/psion work? I'd have to find a way to cast while raging but it would be fun, especially if I could enter into the cerebral rager from Mindscapes: A Psion's Guide - that wouId be awesome!
No idea on your homebrew, sorry.
Technically you need to manifest while raging, which might be even more difficult than casting.
Does that mindscapes book provide the ability to manifest while raging?

[Emperor Tippy]

Psion//Wizard can work just fine, it's not the best by any means but it's not bad or weak.

Gray Elf for your race, of course.

---
Your best choice though is Gray Elf Factotum//Psion using Psychic Chiguery to pick up all psionic powers and using a Spell to Power Erudite to make all Arcane spells into powers.

Use that with a Wyrm Wizard to make all Divine spells arcane.

The end result is a character who can, at any time and without preparation, can every spell in the entire game without regards to spell slots or spell books.

Combine with any of the methods of quickly regaining all your PP.

[Rubik]

Psion//Wizard can work just fine, it's not the best by any means but it's not bad or weak.

Gray Elf for your race, of course.

---
Your best choice though is Gray Elf Factotum//Psion using Psychic Chiguery to pick up all psionic powers and using a Spell to Power Erudite to make all Arcane spells into powers.

Use that with a Wyrm Wizard to make all Divine spells arcane.

The end result is a character who can, at any time and without preparation, can every spell in the entire game without regards to spell slots or spell books.

Combine with any of the methods of quickly regaining all your PP.Wyrm wizard would only work for a few spells, though. Better to go with the Mantled Spell-to-Power Erudite, take the Magic Mantle, and then 10 levels of rainbow servant, if you can.

Though three levels in illithid savant is much more economical, overall.

And don't forget one level each of prestige bard, prestige ranger, and prestige paladin, for access to all three spell-lists.

[Psyren]

Psion//Wizard can work just fine, it's not the best by any means but it's not bad or weak.

This. The conventional "active//passive" wisdom doesn't apply as much to Psions because their supreme action economy abilities let them easily be both.

[Rubik]

This. The conventional "active//passive" wisdom doesn't apply as much to Psions because they're supreme action economy abilities let them easily be both.Yes, this is quite true. If you toss a few resources at it, you can flog the action economy into submission at level 1.

For instance, take three resources from Complete Psionic: the Synchronicity power and the Linked Power and Metapower metapsionic feats. Apply Metapower to Linked Power and Synchronicity, and from then on you can manifest a Linked Power'd Synchronicity (Linked to any other non-blasting/non-debuff power you want, including Synchronicity) and gain an additional standard action each round. And with Metapower, you gain 2 pp's worth of manifestations for free. At least once per combat, and if you take the Psionic Meditation feat at 3rd level you can do this Every. Single. Round.

[Dusk Eclipse]

This. The conventional "active//passive" wisdom doesn't apply as much to Psions because their supreme action economy abilities let them easily be both.

^ This, a thousand times this. Psions are masters of action economy manipulation and while their chassis are identical (with obvious exceptions) Wizard //Psion is quite powerful and synergistic. You can cover some holes in your wizard repertoire (most likely effects from banned schools) with your Powers and viceversa.

Want more spells? Psychic Reform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) your level up spells, scribe them into your spellbook and then reform back to your original spells, rinse and repeat and prepare to dodge flying books.



Yes, this is quite true. If you toss a few resources at it, you can flog the action economy into submission at level 1.

For instance, take three resources from Complete Psionic: the Synchronicity power and the Linked Power and Metapower metapsionic feats. Apply Metapower to Linked Power and Synchronicity, and from then on you can manifest a Linked Power'd Synchronicity (Linked to any other non-blasting/non-debuff power you want, including Synchronicity) and gain an additional standard action each round. And with Metapower, you gain 2 pp's worth of manifestations for free. At least once per combat, and if you take the Psionic Meditation feat at 3rd level you can do this Every. Single. Round.

You don't have to go that far to make action economy cry like a baby, Schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm) is right there in the EPH and it gives an extra standard action (the -6 ML can be fixed with little effort, si it won't be an issue in most cases, and even then, there are some powers that don't need augmentation).

Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm)+ Solicit Psycrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/solicitPsicrystal.htm) means you have a full round action worth of mental actions and a full round action of physical actions (awesome for gishes, since you also use your Int mod for attack and damage).

Do note this tricks come online at level 7 (or 9 if you want them both, since depending on your discipline you will need an Expanded Knowledge for either Schism or Control Body).

[Segev]

Control Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm)+ Solicit Psycrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/solicitPsicrystal.htm) means you have a full round action worth of mental actions and a full round action of physical actions (awesome for gishes, since you also use your Int mod for attack and damage).

It seems to me that people who quote this trick always ignore that there's an inherent -4 to pretty much every action taken through Control Body. Is there some trick or reason that I'm missing whereby this -4 does not, in fact, apply?

[Psyren]

It seems to me that people who quote this trick always ignore that there's an inherent -4 to pretty much every action taken through Control Body. Is there some trick or reason that I'm missing whereby this -4 does not, in fact, apply?

I don't see anything about a -4 in the power description, what are you referring to?

[Segev]

...huh. You're right. I don't know why I thought I saw it in there. Repeatedly. >_<

Well, at least that confusion of mine is cleared up: people don't reference it because it's not there!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Control Body
Psychokinesis
Level: Kineticist 4
Display: Material
Manifesting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One Medium or smaller creature with humanoid physiology
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Power Resistance: Yes
Power Points: 7
You psychokinetically control the actions of any humanoid (including undead or outsiders with a humanoid physiology) that is within range and to which you have line of sight. Control body doesn’t require mental contact with the subject, since you are actually forcing limb movements independent of the target’s mind. You can force the subject to stand up, sit down, walk, turn around, and so on, but operating the vocal cords is too difficult. You can also hold the subject immobile, rendering it helpless. You cannot force the subject to manifest powers, cast spells, or use any special ability that is not a function of just its body movements. If you lose line of sight to the subject, the effect of this power ends.

If you force the subject to engage in combat, its attack bonus is equal to your base attack bonus + your Intelligence bonus, and its bonus on damage rolls is equal to your Intelligence bonus. A subject of this power cannot make attacks of opportunity. The subject gains no benefit to Armor Class from its Dexterity, but it does gain a bonus to its AC equal to your Intelligence bonus.

Although the subject’s body is under your control, the subject’s mind is not. Creatures capable of taking purely mental actions (such as manifesting powers) can do so.

Augment
For every 2 additional power points you spend, this power can affect a target one size category larger.



I don't see where does it says you get any -4

Edit: Perhaps you were thinking on the PF version which does cut this trick since it makes the target staggered?

[gurgleflep]

Sorry for the way late reply - internet was off for a bit there :smalleek:
Don't wanna have to quote everything but yeowzers some of that's way more optimized than what my group plays. I wouldn't want to steal the spotlight (to much :smallwink:) but these are all great suggestions :smallbiggrin:

[Dusk Eclipse]

It is powerful, but like any spellcaster you can tone it down, focus on party buffs/utility on the Wizard side and get your combat powers (CC and one or two blast) with you psion's powers

[Psyren]

Drop Enchantment + Evocation on your Wizard side and use your Psion powers to make up for it. Be a Telepath - not only does this get you great powers (e.g. Charm Monster at level 1, Schism without needing to blow a feat on it, Mind Switch, Chirurgery etc.), it also lets you take the ACF that gets you true telepathy at 5 so you can get Mindsight. Now grab Touchsight. Now nothing can ever sneak up on you, including that.

You have enough blasting from base psion to do without evocation, plus you have orbs of X on the Wizard side. Be sure to grab Mental Pinnacle and Dweomer of Transference for more shenanigans.

[gurgleflep]

It is powerful, but like any spellcaster you can tone it down, focus on party buffs/utility on the Wizard side and get your combat powers (CC and one or two blast) with you psion's powers

Party buffs is a smart idea - any particular things I should learn? I know (almost literally) nothing of magic.


Drop Enchantment + Evocation on your Wizard side and use your Psion powers to make up for it. Be a Telepath - not only does this get you great powers (e.g. Charm Monster at level 1, Schism without needing to blow a feat on it, Mind Switch, Chirurgery etc.), it also lets you take the ACF that gets you true telepathy at 5 so you can get Mindsight. Now grab Touchsight. Now nothing can ever sneak up on you, including that.

You have enough blasting from base psion to do without evocation, plus you have orbs of X on the Wizard side. Be sure to grab Mental Pinnacle and Dweomer of Transference for more shenanigans.

Which ACF is this and where can I find it? I ask far to many questions :/

[Fax Celestis]

Swashbuckler//Wizard

Big fan of Psion (Kineticist)//Swashbuckler, manifesting control body on yourself and maintaining concentration on it via solicit psicrystal. Int to attack, damage (twice, due to Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike), and AC.

[Psyren]

Which ACF is this and where can I find it? I ask far to many questions :/

Telepathic Communication ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a)

And don't worry about it, questions are good!

[gurgleflep]

Big fan of Psion (Kineticist)//Swashbuckler, manifesting control body on yourself and maintaining concentration on it via solicit psicrystal. Int to attack, damage (twice, due to Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike), and AC.

Ooh, int to damage twice? Smart and still powerful :smallamused:


Telepathic Communication ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a)

And don't worry about it, questions are good!

That would come in quite handy, thanks for telling me about it and linking to it :smallbiggrin:

True, but it seems to be the only way I communicate :smalleek:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not really, nothing prevents you from speaking normally.

[gurgleflep]

Not really, nothing prevents you from speaking normally.

Are you talking in-game or out of game? I was talkin' about out of game.
But seriously though, telepathy will help a fair bit - there's a lot of languages especially if you use homebrew :smalleek:

[Psyren]

Not really, nothing prevents you from speaking normally.

It confused me for a sec too - but I think what he was actually saying was "asking questions is the only way I (as a poster, not my psion character) seem to communicate."

[Dusk Eclipse]

:redface: ok now I get it.

[gurgleflep]

It confused me for a sec too - but I think what he was actually saying was "asking questions is the only way I (as a poster, not my psion character) seem to communicate."

That's exactly what I was saying. Sorry for confusin' ya'll!

[subject42]

Wizard//Psion's utility largely depends on your school specialization and your psionic discipline.

Conjurer/Egoists work fairly well. You use Conjurer for combat and movement purposes, then use Egoist for long-duration buffs.

Alternately, you can use psionics to mimic your banned schools. Just don't double-up on effects. For example, don't take fireball and energy ball.

[Ramza00]

Schism+synchronicity means you use your lesser mind to give you a standard action that your main mind can use without the manifested level hit of six