Shifting defence (stance) TOB

[Devronq]

Im a little confused about this stance i was just reading it for the first time so i have the following questions.

1. This stance says its a swift action to initiate but i assume that just means to enter the stance as it is not as useful if you can only do it during your turn?
2. It then says you use it immediately in the descriptive text... does that mean each time you take a 5ft step with it its an immediate action? Or is it a free action or what kind of action is it?
3. Does this effect your ability to take a 5ft step? (as you can normally do it once.)
4. Can you use this as many times as you like assuming you have enough AoO to use up for it?
5. If i am attacked and i use this to step away but they still have reach and i am still in their threat does the attack still happen or does my movement stop there attack?

Thanks in advance guys :)

[Crake]

1. This stance says its a swift action to initiate but i assume that just means to enter the stance as it is not as useful if you can only do it during your turn?

Correct, it is a swift action to initiate, but the benefits of the stance have their own requirements to receive the benefits.


2. It then says you use it immediately in the descriptive text... does that mean each time you take a 5ft step with it its an immediate action? Or is it a free action or what kind of action is it?

No, the 5ft step is a non-action, replacing your attack of opportunity.


3. Does this effect your ability to take a 5ft step? (as you can normally do it once.)

Since the stance specifically says "each time" you're provoked, I would lean toward saying no, this effect does not count toward your limit of 1 5ft step per round, despite the fact that there's no actual rules text in the stance itself that suggests that it allows you to break the normal limit of 1.


4. Can you use this as many times as you like assuming you have enough AoO to use up for it?

Yes, you can use this as many times as you have AoO available to you (minus ones you use to actually attack).


5. If i am attacked and i use this to step away but they still have reach and i am still in their threat does the attack still happen or does my movement stop there attack?

Yes, as long as the attack is still capable of resolving (you're still a valid target), the attack will follow through to completion.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I could be wrong, but this is my best attempt at what it does by RAW. The ones I'm not entirely sure about are 3 and 4.

1. It is a swift action to initiate a stance. Once it has been initiated it remains in effect indefinitely, even outside of combat.

2. It is not an immediate action, It is a 5-foot step which is it's own action type. This 5-foot step just take place under special circumstances.

3. It is a 5-foot step and you can't take more than one 5-foot step in a turn.

4. See 5.

5. If you are still in their threat zone the attack still happens.

A relevant quote.

Take 5-Foot Step

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.

[Firechanter]

3. It is a 5-foot step and you can't take more than one 5-foot step in a turn.

4. See 5.


D&D is all about rules and exceptions to rules. This is an exception to a basic rule. The rules also say you can take only one AoO per turn. Exception: unless you have Combat Reflexes, then you can do 1+Dex mod AoOs per turn.
This is the same thing. You can only take one 5' Step per turn, unless you have some feature that allows you to do more. There is a White Raven stance that allows you to do a 5'-Step every time you attack an enemy. Or there is the Supreme Cleave that lets you take a 5'Step after every (successful) Cleave attempt.

[NeoPhoenix0]

D&D is all about rules and exceptions to rules. This is an exception to a basic rule. The rules also say you can take only one AoO per turn. Exception: unless you have Combat Reflexes, then you can do 1+Dex mod AoOs per turn.
This is the same thing. You can only take one 5' Step per turn, unless you have some feature that allows you to do more. There is a White Raven stance that allows you to do a 5'-Step every time you attack an enemy. Or there is the Supreme Cleave that lets you take a 5'Step after every (successful) Cleave attempt.

Read supreme cleave again. It specifically says you are still limited to one such adjustment per round.

I was unable to find such a white raven stance. I was able to find a white raven stance that specifically allows you to take a second 5-foot step or take a 5-foot step into difficult terrain.

This stance does not say you can make more than one 5-foot step per turn.

[Ashtagon]

Im a little confused about this stance i was just reading it for the first time so i have the following questions.

1. This stance says its a swift action to initiate but i assume that just means to enter the stance as it is not as useful if you can only do it during your turn?
2. It then says you use it immediately in the descriptive text... does that mean each time you take a 5ft step with it its an immediate action? Or is it a free action or what kind of action is it?
3. Does this effect your ability to take a 5ft step? (as you can normally do it once.)
4. Can you use this as many times as you like assuming you have enough AoO to use up for it?
5. If i am attacked and i use this to step away but they still have reach and i am still in their threat does the attack still happen or does my movement stop there attack?

Thanks in advance guys :)

1. Swift action to initiate, but as long as it remains initiated (ie. until you choose to end it and/or initiate a different stance), it remains active.

2. While the stance is active, the 5-foot step is a non-action. Or, if you like, it is an immediate action that instead of consuming your next swift action, instead consumes one of your attacks of opportunity.

3. No. The normal 5-foot step and the steps granted by this stance are under separate limits.

4. Yes, you can use it up to the number of attacks of opportunity you have. Note that you can only use it after your enemy attacks you and misses. It does not allow you to avoid their attack roll.

5. See 4. First, the enemy attacks. If he hits, you take damage and end of story. If he misses and you have one or more attacks of opportunity available, you can then choose to take a 5-foot step with the stance. Note the following line in the rules text: "Each failed attack gives you the split-second you need to move without drawing attacks."

[A.A.King]

Read supreme cleave again. It specifically says you are still limited to one such adjustment per round.

I was unable to find such a white raven stance. I was able to find a white raven stance that specifically allows you to take a second 5-foot step or take a 5-foot step into difficult terrain.

This stance does not say you can make more than one 5-foot step per turn.

Actually, it depends on the Supreme Cleave you read. Supreme Cleave from Frenzied Beserker indeed mentions that one is still limited to only one 5-Foot step per turn. However Knight Protector which also offers Supreme Cleave has no such restriction. Therefor you can conclude that Shifting Defense allows you to take as many as you want regardless of the usual limit as long as you can still forgo 1 attack of opportunity

[NeoPhoenix0]

Actually, it depends on the Supreme Cleave you read. Supreme Cleave from Frenzied Beserker indeed mentions that one is still limited to only one 5-Foot step per turn. However Knight Protector which also offers Supreme Cleave has no such restriction. Therefor you can conclude that Shifting Defense allows you to take as many as you want regardless of the usual limit as long as you can still forgo 1 attack of opportunity

Looked up the Knight Protector. By RAW it never lifts the restriction on one 5-foot step per round so it is still limited to one per round. In RAW if there is no specific rule you always go to the general rule, you can't make stuff up.

[Firechanter]

For the record, I was referring to the Knight Protector variant.


Beginning at 3rd level, a knight protector can take a 5-foot step between attacks when using the Cleave or Great Cleave feat.


Looked up the Knight Protector. By RAW it never lifts the restriction on one 5-foot step per round so it is still limited to one per round.

I disagree. You'd have to look _very_ closely, and with a preconceived conclusion, at the description to deduce that the wording is meant to be read with an unwritten "once per round". Intuitively, most people including yours truly will read the "when" as "whenever".

As for the White Raven stance; yes I was mistaken, you get "only" a _second_ 5'-step and not any number of them. But that doesn't defeat my point: you get two 5'-steps instead of one. Which sufficiently disproves your claim that you can never make more than one 5'-step.

Also, there is a Strike that allows your Allies to take a 5'Step as Immediate Action. Which means they can still take a 5'Step on their own turn in the next round, because they have expended only their Swift Action. Anything else would make the whole maneuver pointless, anyway.

[NeoPhoenix0]

I don't disagree with you, we're just talking about two different things. RAI it is supposed to be used multiple times. RAW it doesn't actually say that. No one plays RAW, even a couple people who think they do probably don't because of how badly the rules are written. When I'm asked a rules question I try give as strict a RAW answer as possible.

[Person_Man]

The Feat is very poorly written. But Ashtagon's guidance is correct.

It's also worth mentioning that Shifting Defense can be duplicated with Karmic Strike + Evasive Reflexes Feat, or if you want a superior version, Robilar's Gambit (which occurs every time an enemy swings at you, regardless of whether they hit or not) + Evasive Reflexes. Alternatively, you can get Knockback or Pushback, which pushes an enemy away from you when you hit them. That way you still prevent them from making a full attack against you, but don't have to give up your AoO.