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Skaraker
2013-09-08, 11:42 PM
So, language is kinda my thing. And it's always bugged me that all it takes to become 100% proficient in a language in 3.5/PF is to take a single rank in a skill. I also dislike the fact that there's no gradation. You either can't speak a language at all, or you are completely fluent. This was completely unsatisfactory to me.

I wanted a system that allowed for a character who speaks a little elven, just enough to get by, but has trouble when it comes time to get fancy. I wanted there to be an opportunity for a character to go "It sounds like he said, 'I like your axe'", when what he actually said was "I want your skull." In short, I want the language barrier to live up to the interesting role-playing opportunities it can provide, and the system as it stands can't accommodate that. So, with Pathfinder as my basis, since my group recently made the switch from 3.5, I wrote my own system, showed it to my friends... and they hated it. One of them angrily so. Another one actually gave me some constructive feedback, and the two of us came up with a new system. Most of them liked it this time, so I thought I'd bring it to the Playground for some review and commentary. You'll find it in the spoiler below.

Comprehension Levels

To implement this sub-system, the first necessary change is to remove all wording under the Learn a Language section of the Linguistics skill. You can no longer learn a new language simply by investing a rank in this skill. You still gain all automatic languages from your Race and any Bonus Languages from your Class or from a high Intelligence score.

There are a variety of Comprehension Levels for each language a character knows. They are as follows.

0- The character cannot speak this language at all.
1- The character knows a handful of basic words and phrases.
2- The character can form basic sentences and simple ideas.
3- The character can speak normally (every-day usage).
4- The character commands knowledge of higher-level vocabulary, grammar, and syntax.
5- The character has complete mastery of the language.

A character’s starting comprehension level in their automatic and bonus languages depends on their Intelligence Score, according to the table below.

{table=head] Intelligence Score | Automatic Languages Starting Comprehension Level | Bonus Languages Starting Comprehension Level
1-5 | 2 | 1
6-11 | 3 | 2
12+ | 4 | 3
[/table]

A character may learn a new language, or improve their comprehension level in a language they already possess, by spending 20 days of training, as per the retraining rules in Chapter 3 of the Ultimate Campaign, except that each 20 day period simply advances your comprehension level by 1. You can also learn a language by simple exposure. Every 4 days spent interacting with another character that has a higher comprehension level than you in the language in question counts as one day of training for the purposes of learning the language, so long as the character you are interacting with uses the language in question. If you deliberately restrict yourself to using only the language you are learning, each day of interaction counts as one full day of training. The maximum comprehension level that can be attained in this way is illustrated on the table below.

{table=head] Intelligence Score | Automatic Languages Maximum Comprehension Level | Other Languages Maximum Comprehension Level
1-2 | -- | 1*
3-5 | 3 | 2
6-11 | 4 | 3
12-13 | 5 | 4
14+ | 5 | 5
[/table]
*A maximum comprehension level of 1 for creatures with an Int score of 1 or 2 represents the ability of animals to learn rudimentary words and understand their meaning, such as the words used for commands like "Sit" or "Stay"

If a character wishes to express or understand concepts that are at a higher comprehension level than they possess, they have two options. The first option is to make a Wisdom Check. This can be done at any time. The second option is to make a Linguistics check. This cannot be done in any circumstance in which taking 10 on a check is prohibited, such as in combat. The DC of either check is 5+5/comprehension level above that of the character making the check.

Circumstance bonuses on either check should be relatively commonplace. For example, a soldier should be able to understand the command to charge when all the other soldiers around him rush forward, even if he does not understand the words used by the commander. Similarly, a merchant can easily express basic ideas related to cost, even if his customers have no idea what he is saying. These circumstance bonuses are too numerous and varied to note here, so they are left to the discretion of the GM.

Equipment

A phrase book (5gp, 1 lb) in the appropriate language allows a character with a comprehension level of 0 to communicate as if he possessed a comprehension level of 1. A masterwork phrase book (15gp, 2 lbs) does the same for a character with a comprehension level of 0, and also allows a character with a comprehension level of 1 to communicate as if he had a comprehension level of 2.

A multi-language dictionary (10gp, 2 lbs) between two languages in which you have different comprehension levels can provide a +5 circumstance bonus on Linguistics checks to understand or express yourself at a higher level in the lower of the two languages, up to a maximum level equal to your comprehension level in the higher of the two languages.

nonsi
2013-09-09, 01:49 AM
Ok, I can almost toss my Lang HR out the window.

You might wanna cover more aspects to make these rules perfect:
1. Decipher Script.
2. Forgery.
3. The prereqs & benefits of being a linguist.


Also, I once met an elderly woman who had impressively high verbal skills, but was illiterate. How does your set of rules model that ?

Skaraker
2013-09-09, 02:14 AM
Decipher Script and Forgery are still covered by the Linguistics skill, as per standard Pathfinder rules. I may want to make that more clear in my write up. The Linguistics skill also gains the functions described here.

There really are no prerequisites, except for the intelligence score required to achieve a given comprehension level. As for benefits, I really hadn't considered them beyond role playing benefits of having a higher degree of mastery in a language, and being able to communicate more effectively because of that. I suppose there might be some effect on diplomacy checks and the like.

Concerning verbal skill vs literacy, I intentionally chose to ignore the distinction in these rules, for the sake of simplicity. I do understand that a truly complete rule set would allow for that, however, so if you want to use these rules in your game and add a way to distinguish between the two, I'd be happy to hear what you come up with.

Coryen
2013-09-09, 02:30 AM
In games I run, I simply say Literacy in a language is an additional 'language' thing you must buy from fluency. (Even including bonus languages and starting languages; so to be fluent takes one 'pick' but fluency and literacy costs 2 'picks')
This might seem like a needless tax, but it lets the players differentiate well-educated characters, who might speak only a couple of languages, but are also able to read and write in them, from the well-traveled worldly characters, who speak many languages and dialects but don't have literacy in most.

Your system, I'll be honest, seems like a bit more work than is necessary for 'can I convey this idea to this person?' While problems relating to word command do come up quite often between people speaking non-native languages, unless the issue is pivotal to the game you need to run or the setting it takes place in, simply flagging players as pass/fail in their ability to speak a language would be faster and more convenient than trying to cross reference everything they just said with their INT score and a chart.

I think language issues could present interesting challenges to players, but aside from some interesting encounters, the novelty of such issues would likely run out; either the players would cast spells such as comprehend languages/tongues/Fox's Cunning to improve their ability or circumvent the challenges, or take the languages if they didn't have them or, if it is that important to their ability to succeed at a challenge, hire a translator.

Skaraker
2013-09-09, 02:54 AM
Your idea on literacy is an interesting one.

As far as the chart goes, you'd only need to reference it at character creation, and when you bumped up against the cap on comprehension level for your int score. the linguistics check to say something at a higher level is not bounded by that chart, only the basic level that someone can communicate at without really trying. In play, all you'd have to do is designate each language you have with a number 1-5, and that will tell you everything you need to know about how well you can communicate.

[EDIT: Perhaps I should have made this more clear in my write-up, but only your starting proficiency in the automatic and bonus languages you begin play with, and the maximum possible proficiency you can achieve, is determined by your INT score. Any other languages start from 1 when you invest that first 20 days of training and go up from there, and improving your INT score does not automatically bump up your proficiency in an existing language. You have to put in the training time.]

And regarding your comment about the possible ways around it, those are all good methods of bypassing the language barrier, and if a player invests the resources to achieve any of those, that's fine. However, that doesn't mean that allowing the opportunity for mistranslation or to represent a character with only a basic grasp of a language isn't a worthwhile aim.

[EDIT 2: For example, in a campaign that I'll be starting soon, I'm playing a Human Paladin with an Int score of 10. He gets Common as an automatic language for being human, and in the setting we're playing in, his ethnicity, Ulfen, also gets him the language Skald as an automatic language. However, his holy book is written in Kelish. I asked the GM for permission to write the 20 days assigned in Ultimate Campaign to learn a new language into his back story, so that he could learn Kelish, and so read his Holy Book. If I were creating him with these rules, he would start play with a Comprehension Level of 3 in both Common and Skald (that's conversational, every-day use, the level of language I'm typing at right now), and that 20 days would have given him a Comprehension Level of 1 in Kelish (just a few basic words and phrases, not nearly enough to read that holy book, although a high enough wis check might let him do it anyway). Over the course of the campaign, it would be a goal of his to improve his level in Kelish to 3, which would require another 40 days of training, and would be the maximum he could get due to his INT score. if he wanted to, he could also improve his common and Skald to level 4 (the kind of language you would use in a college essay), by spending another 20 days of training each. Improving his INT score would raise the ceiling on what he could achieve through training, but would not actively increase the level he can speak at.]

Hovannes
2013-09-11, 11:40 AM
Here is the modern language skill from PSG.

Language, Modern - Category General
Associated Stat Intelligence D4
Secondary Stat None
Learn Time (Weeks) 6-12 weeks
Learn Location Libraries
Tools Cost (in GPS) 0
Skill Purchase Experience Point Cost (Novice) 50
Special Requirements None
Associated Skills None

D4 - Novice
Refers to any modern language spoken on Equran. Individuals that possess a modern language skill can still speak and understand the ancient forms of the same language but as a greater difficulty (TD 15-20 in most cases). Imperial forms of a modern language (version reserved for courts and legal proceedings) add a +5 to any base difficulty because of its formality and complexity.
Skill Rating (D4) - Broken Communication.

ALL individuals receive 1 dice boost for their birth or native language at the start of the game. Individuals possessing the High Born feat receive a bonus of +2 more due to additional training in their native language.

D6 – Skilled - Skill Rating (D6) - Basic Communication with heavy accent.

D8 – Journeyman - Skill Rating (D8) - Fluent with slight accent.

D10 – Master - Skill Rating (D10) - Native - no accent present - can communicate complex ideas.

D12 - Skill Rating (D12) - Multi-dialect possible.

Notes - Extra planer languages such as abyssal or infernal have a base difficulty of 10 to speak and understand. This is further compounded when creatures that have different physical make-up attempt to express themselves verbally. Additional vocal organs or even the lack of such would make the sounds of their speech patterns different and difficulty to understand. As a general rule the greater the physical difference between the creature and a standard human the greater the difficulty to understand the verbalized language. Understanding a Succubus would not be difficulty but understanding a Verock would be very hard.

I also have similar descriptions for Ancient and Sign languages - you can find them on the download page (https://sites.google.com/site/pointsystemgaming/psg-core-rules/core-rules---downloads) - Skills folder.

Opps... just noticed a few spelling errors...have to fix those.

Just as a side note, role-playing a language barrier is fun once or twice, but gets old if its a constant function in a game.

Just my two cents;