Shapesand some clarification

[unseenmage]

What's the difference in weight between a pound of feathers and a pound of Shapesand?

Controlling Shapesand requires an initial Wis check DC 16 to establish your ownership of it.
After that you can only control a volume of Shapesand based on your Wis score. Normally a 5' cube for 10-11 Wis characters.
Shaping Shapesand can use the chart for the Sandshaper to set DCs for complexity, detail etc. But that is at DM discretion and not RAW exactly.

Now the hard question, what items can you make with Shapesand?
But much like the question at the beginning of this post it's not really that difficult a question.
One dose of Shapesand weighs 12 pounds. In the examples Shapesand is described as being capable of functioning as either hard metal or stone-like objects or soft pliable objects like a waterskin.

Most of the items that Shapesand could/would be used for have listed weights. That said, if you want to make an item you have a limited weight of Shapesand to make it with. You want to turn one dose of Shapesand into a length of rope? Sure Shapesand can do that. Your limit is that you can only shape it into 12 pounds of rope, because that's all the Shapesand you have.
You want a suit of medium full plate armor? Sorry, you're going to need more Shapesand to make that item.
It's possible you could shape 12 pounds of Shapesand into the shape of medium full plate but it would be spread thin and flimsy by necessity. Why you ask? because you only had 12 pounds of the 50 pounds needed to make full plate.

Whether the Shapesand can become Alchemical items, liquids, a corpse, explosives, mechanical traps, or special materials is all left to DM discretion. Whatever's more fun for the group is likely the right answer, though I would always make sure the Shapesand at least looks like sand.

Please tell me if I've missed something here, and thanks for reading. Here's hoping I don't see another thread asking about how much sand is in 12 pounds of Shapesand. Followed by pages and pages of discussion about how much Shapesand-rope is in 12 pounds of Shapesand.

[Big Fau]

What's the difference in weight between a pound of feathers and a pound of Shapesand?

A pound's a pound. There's no difference in weight, but there may be a difference in mass.


Now the hard question, what items can you make with Shapesand?

Anything listed in the Equipment section of the PHB outside of living beings (and possibly alchemical goods, but YMMV), and anything of similar nature listed in other books. I'd personally rule that, once the Wisdom check is established, it takes a Craft (Sculpting) check to make the shapesand resemble one of those items as per the normal craft rules, to a maximum weight of 12lbs.

RAW, shapesand mimics the item perfectly except in look. While this isn't unreasonable for things like hammers and cloth materials, things like a magnifying glass aren't exactly feasible for shapesand to duplicate (since you'd have to melt the sand into glass).

Also, there's a RAW exploit in that you can turn shapesand into Artifacts. You'd have to find a moron of a DM to do so, but it's there.

[Segev]

Personally, I would rule against using it to make consumables, but even if one were to allow that, it would be a huge waste, mechanically, because consumables are, well, consumed when used.

However, given that it specifies that it can take on stone, metal, and soft-product (e.g. rope or leather) type qualities, if that's read as exclusive, then liquids and other things that require properties other than their solidity and consistency to function are out, anyway. A candle burns because its wick is flammable; since shapesand doesn't say it can take on flammability properties, a shapesand candle might have the consistency of wax with a wick-soft bit of sand poking out the top, but it wouldn't ignite. Same is true of edible substances: they might break apart when chewed, but you're still eating sand. Alchemical substances, as well, would lack their proper properties. If shapesand could do gas, I might see room to argue for smokesticks (makes billowing clouds of sand!), but it doesn't say it can.


So, what is the RAW exploit for artifacts?

[Fouredged Sword]

One of the only was shapesand makes sense is if it is variably dense. You can make a wooden boat out of shapesand, but unless it is also as dense as wood, it will sink. You can make a steel hammer out of shapesand, but unless it has the density of steel, it will be too light to be useful.

Thus, I make the assumption that shapesand can alter it's density as you shape it, and thus you compare weight to weight to see what you get, rather than volumes.

[unseenmage]

A pound's a pound. There's no difference in weight, but there may be a difference in mass.

Also, there's a RAW exploit in that you can turn shapesand into Artifacts. You'd have to find a moron of a DM to do so, but it's there.

Yes I know a pound is a pound, that was the point.

I didn't know about the Artifact exploit, that one's new on me.


One of the only was shapesand makes sense is if it is variably dense. You can make a wooden boat out of shapesand, but unless it is also as dense as wood, it will sink. You can make a steel hammer out of shapesand, but unless it has the density of steel, it will be too light to be useful.

Thus, I make the assumption that shapesand can alter it's density as you shape it, and thus you compare weight to weight to see what you get, rather than volumes.

Agreed, and at the same time you obey the volume restriction your Wis score gets you.


Between the weight restriction and the volume restriction, the fact that every time a different creature wants to control the Shapesand, and the rather high DCs a lot of objects ought to have Shapesand becomes quite usable and a lot less OP.
Like so many things it just takes a non-permissive DM.

Edit: A friend suggested adding paints or dyes to each dose of Shapesand so you could color your creations. I thought it was a fun idea. Pretty sure getting the colored grains where you want them should always use the Masterwork DC increase though.

[Big Fau]

So, what is the RAW exploit for artifacts?


The new object is made of sand, but serves as a normal item of the same sort. A shapesand hammer functions just like an ordinary hammer, and a shapesand waterskin is just as watertight as an ordinary skin.


Major artifacts are unique items

RAW, major artifacts are unique. A "normal item of the same sort" would be identical in all respects. Thus, instead of shaping the shapesand into something like a mace, you can abuse RAW and turn it into The Saint's Mace (SRD, I think the DMG has a different name for it).

This is Pun-Pun level cheese. Do not attempt this in a serious game. Any DM who allows you to do this is begging you to ruin the campaign.

[unseenmage]

Say Animate Object can be used on Alchemical items.
Would one still be able to Wis check Shapesand into a new shape after it's been Animate Object-ed?

Additionally, how would Shrink Item work on Shapesand? Would a more math-savvy Playgrounder care to calculate how much more volume/lbs one could shape if they Shrink Item-ed the Shapesand before shaping?

[Chronos]

Quoth Fouredged:

One of the only was shapesand makes sense is if it is variably dense. You can make a wooden boat out of shapesand, but unless it is also as dense as wood, it will sink.
Boats get most of their buoyancy from their shape, not their materials. That's why metal boats are possible. Heck, you could make a floating boat out of lead, or gold.

I'd be more worried about the sand being watertight.

[TuggyNE]

Boats get most of their buoyancy from their shape, not their materials. That's why metal boats are possible. Heck, you could make a floating boat out of lead, or gold.

Yep. There are actual boats made out of concrete (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_ship). They work pretty well, actually!

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, but if you shaped a sand boat like you shape a wooden boat, it would sink. You can make a concrete boat, but the shape is different because it is designed with the added density of the hull material in mind. If you shaped wood into the same design as a concrete boat it would likely capsize easily due to being too light.

[unseenmage]

Yes, but if you shaped a sand boat like you shape a wooden boat, it would sink. You can make a concrete boat, but the shape is different because it is designed with the added density of the hull material in mind. If you shaped wood into the same design as a concrete boat it would likely capsize easily due to being too light.

I agree however, if you shape an Alchemical sand boat like you would a wooden boat, it wouldn't sink. Because that's what the rules say it does. Not to mention rule-of-cool.

Same way D&D Dragons fly I would imagine. :smallsmile:

[Fouredged Sword]

No, I agree, shapesand can make a boat, even a wooden boat. I agree with that completely. I just also think in doing so it copies the density of the wood to do so. It's not quite magic sand, so it can do not quite possible things.

[SciChronic]

No, I agree, shapesand can make a boat, even a wooden boat. I agree with that completely. I just also think in doing so it copies the density of the wood to do so. It's not quite magic sand, so it can do not quite possible things.

that or you could say it mimics the outward appearance, but is hollow once it meets the weight of the real object, thus creating air pockets and adding to buoyancy.

[Fouredged Sword]

I like my answer to fluff better. The hollow space visualization doesn't cover high density applications, like steal, lead, or gold objects.

[unseenmage]

that or you could say it mimics the outward appearance, but is hollow once it meets the weight of the real object, thus creating air pockets and adding to buoyancy.


I like my answer to fluff better. The hollow space visualization doesn't cover high density applications, like steal, lead, or gold objects.

In either case, I think it's more that what a character gets when they Wis check to command a dose of Shapesand isn't a volume of sand at all but a amount of an Alchemical agent which is called Shapesand with the power to utilize nearby sand and dust. This explains a lot of the variable density/volume/weight issues. This way it doesn't interfere with the RAW and it has a neat fluff that draws attention to it's Alchemical nature.

But really any concept that helps the players and DM enjoy this unique item is just fine and dandy really.