[PF] Two Weapon Fighting help

[UndertakerSheep]

I'm soon going to start running Wrath of the Righteous for my group, and one of my players has shown interested in using a Two Weapon Fighting build. My main problem with this is that TWF takes up too many feats to reach an okay level of damage. I would like to know if there's a way around that.

I'm used to running D&D 4e, a game system in which players can be anything they want (fluff and mechanics are separate) and where Two Weapon Fighting isn't that hard to pull off (and is actually really powerful in the hands of the Ranger). I'd love to give my player that same feeling of reliability whenever he fights with two weapons.

What would be a good fix for the TWF feat tree? I want my player to play the character he likes, without losing customization and without feeling like he's wasting feats. I don't have a very good feel for 3.x balance, so how unbalanced would it be to:

Count several feats as one feat. I'm thinking of making Two-Weapon Fighting and its Improved/Greater versions into one feat. If this is a good way to go about it, what other feats should be combined?
Use the 13th age system of ''Take one feat, you can now attack with two weapons without penalty, but the damage die for each weapon is decreased one step''. Exactly how unbalanced would this be in Pathfinder?
Forgot about the feats and just give him a -2/-2 on his attack rolls as long as he wields a light weapon in his off hand.


Any feedback and new ideas would be very helpful!

[Krazzman]

My houserule for TWF-ing is:

The feat tree is cut down to one feat:
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting:
For each attack with your mainhand you can make an attack with your offhand. Every attack is resolved with -2 to hit this round.

Greater Two Weapon Fighting:
Two Weapon Defense + Two Weapon Rend (the +1d10 dmg)

This as a Starting point.

[Hashiel_Dammit]

Folding all the TWF feats into one is a pretty common house rule. It's not terribly unbalancing since melee is generally not as powerful as casting anyway.

Lowering the damage step doesn't nerf TWF too bad since at higher levels the weapon damage itself isn't especially important.

The -2/-2 thing only works if you rule it just for that character. If it applies to everyone, then everyone else might just go TWF, making this character less unique.

[UndertakerSheep]

@Krazzman: Your house rule looks great. Can I ask what the rest is? Seeing as you called it a starting point.

@Hashiel: If I remove the -2 on all attack rolls and replace it by decreasing the damage die of both weapon by one step (all at the cost of just one feat), would that make TWF too hard to resist for other players?

[Andreaz]

@Krazzman: Your house rule looks great. Can I ask what the rest is? Seeing as you called it a starting point.My groups often do the same, plus "weapon finesse is free" and "weapons that attack with dex also use dex for damage instead of str".

Most feats that give static bonuses also tend to scale with level. +1 bonuses tend to become +2, +3 and sometimes +4 over the 20 levels.

[Person_Man]

Simple house rules for you to consider:

1) Eliminate all Feats which provide a minor bonus or eliminate an annoying penalty, and they are no longer pre-reqs for anything. Examples: Precise Shot (the -4 penalty is eliminated by default), Two Weapon Fighting (anyone can use two weapons and gain an extra attack without penalty by default), Point Blank Shot, Dodge, Weapon Focus, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Mobility, Skill Focus, Combat Expertise, Shield Bash, etc.

2) Extra attacks never impose a to-hit penalty. Thus, a class with +20 BAB gets 4 attacks, all at +20 BAB. Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting would each add another attack at +20 BAB.

3) Using a non-light weapon with two hands doubles the Strength bonus (instead of *1.5), all reach weapons must use two hands, and all two handed weapons may be used as normal or as a reach weapon. (No need to waste a Feat on Spiked Chain, which no longer exists, because it's a stupid mostly made up weapon).

4) Light weapons may add Str or Dexterity for attack and damage bonuses, but (with the exception of Unarmed Strike) do not qualify for Power Attack or any Feat triggered by Power Attack (like Knockback or Shock Trooper maneuvers).

5) Animated shield enchantment and bucklers do not exist, shields cannot be used as a weapon unless it is your only weapon, and then it may only be used as a one handed weapon. But if you wield a shield (either by itself as a one handed weapon, or purely as defense with another one handed or light weapon), you may add your shield AC bonus to Reflex Saves, Fortitude Saves, Touch AC, and to resist opposed checks (Grapple, Trip, Disarm, Bull Rush, etc).

6) Strange workarounds and rules exploitations are banned. (Using spiked armor as an off hand attack while using a two handed weapon, exotic weapons which break the above rules, Polymorph or Wildshape into a forms that grant 100 attacks, etc).

These rules make mundane melee and ranged attacks more powerful, make full BAB more important and useful, removes most Feat taxes (which mostly penalize non-magical/psionic classes), and gives players a clear choice between TWF with one handed weapons (highest damage output), TWF with light weapons (Dex based builds have highest AC, Ref, Initiative, and ranged attacks), two handed weapon (solid damage plus superior reach/battlefield control), or fighting with just a shield or sword and board (defense).

[Greenish]

Mind, Person_Man's list above is designed for 3.5, so you'd replace "to resist opposed checks" with "CMD" and other stuff. Also, it might be a bit radical for you or your group.


My favourite take is from Seerow's Balancing the Weapon Styles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199946). In short, it makes TWF a martial weapon proficiency, so everyone proficient with martial weapons, plus rogue, can attack at -2/-2 (with light off-hand) for as many iteratives they have. Then it adds this:

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [Fighter]
Prerequisite: Dexterity 13, Proficiency with two-weapon fighting
Benefit: Any time you make a single attack (such as a standard action attack, an attack of opportunity, or a charge), you may attack with both of your weapons. Additionally, any bonus attacks you gain from sources other than base attack bonus on a full attack now also grant an offhand attack.


And no, I honestly don't think that a change like that would make everyone use TWF. Aside from stylistic reasons, two-handers would still probably rack up better damage for most characters.

[Krazzman]

As a starting point was meant:

Collapsing them into 2 or maybe 3 feats.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer exists in my games, it starts with Improved TWF (Dex 13 as Prereq) workin as greenish posted

Greater TWF
Imp TWF, Bab 3 or 4(haven't calculated yet, no player wanted to twf in my games so far)
Gives you Two weapon Rend and Two weapon Defense (+1 and +1 for every "TWF feat"

Then some homebrew feats like Bladebarrier, giving them after a successful Rend (hitting with 2 correlating attacks [the ones with the same BAB]) a miss chance of 20% against melee attacks But I can't plan further without someone testing it in my games as such this is a starting point and only a rough one.

Oh and don't forget to rework spells and Power attack. Best if you ditch the different calculation for offhand damage too.

[Hashiel_Dammit]

Vanilla TWF is best for characters with a non-STR based source of damage like sneak attack. The damage of the weapon becomes a lot less important than its crit range (who cares if you're doing 1d4 or 1d6 when you're dropping 5d6 of SA either way). Your rule makes TWF a lot more attractive for rogues (who are traditionally the biggest beneficiaries of the style anyway).