Need help creating a third level striker

[UndertakerSheep]

A friend of mine is going to run his new campaign soon, and one of the players has voiced interest in playing a striker. We talked about how 'low optimized' our party's strikers have always been, and how fun it would be to have an optimized striker for once.

So Playground, how do you go about making a third level striker that is already out-damaging the other strikers? I was originally planning on just making a Ranger and stack static modifiers on top of Twin Strike, but I don't think you can have many static modifiers at such a low level. I don't expect this campaign to last longer than a level or two, so the character has to be strong at third level. How OP can it get?

The only other known characters at the moment are my Eladrin Knight and a Shade Rogue. If the striker gets more damage due to synergy with another character, it's all the better!

All resources released by WotC are allowed.

[ghost_warlock]

Honestly, I'd think the best way to go about it would be either a tiefling or dragonborn fire elementalist. Infernal Prince theme with incendiary daggers. There won't be much variety, but you'll dish out more hurt than pretty much anyone.

A tiefling fire warlock with Blood Pact of Carnia and the same theme/gear might come close, but will probably still miss the mark.


level 3
Tiefling, Sorcerer (Elementalist)
Elemental Specialty Option: Fire Elementalist
Armor of Resistance +1 Option: Cold
Theme: Infernal Prince

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 18, DEX 13, INT 11, WIS 8, CHA 18

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 16, DEX 13, INT 11, WIS 8, CHA 16


AC: 18 Fort: 16 Ref: 14 Will: 18
HP: 40 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, Bluff +12, Endurance +10, Intimidate +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Athletics +1, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +0, Heal +0, History +1, Insight +0, Nature +0, Perception +0, Religion +1, Stealth +4, Streetwise +5, Thievery +2

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Infernal Prince Attack: Hellfire Heart
Tiefling Racial Power: Infernal Wrath
Sorcerer Attack: Elemental Bolt
Sorcerer Attack: Ignition
Sorcerer Attack: Elemental Escalation (Fire)
Sorcerer Utility 2: Dragonflame Mantle

FEATS
Level 1: Hellfire Blood
Level 2: Superior Implement Training (Incendiary dagger)

ITEMS
Shielding Blade Incendiary dagger +1 x1
Rhythm Blade Incendiary dagger +1 x1
Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) of Resistance +1 x1
Amulet of Double Fortune +1 x1


Elemental Bolt, ranged 10: +9 vs Reflex; 1d12+1d6+12 fire damage
Ignition; area burst 1 w/in 10: +8 vs Fort; 1d10+12 fire damage

[Kurald Galain]

How about playing a warlord, and using your action to make one of the existing strikers attack with +5 to damage?

[Gavran]

I feel like having a single high-op character is kind of a terrible decision. Particularly when you've got a low-op PC trying to fill the same role.

That said, a Revenant (Dwarf) Scout with the axe class feature and Dwarven Weapon Training can be frightening.

It's level 1, but there's also this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22105109/DPR_King_Candidates_2.0?post_num=1388#505950823).

It's worth noting that if you plan for this campaign to continue for more than a few levels, Ranger is still the best decision.

[UndertakerSheep]

...
Elemental Bolt, ranged 10: +9 vs Reflex; 1d12+1d6+12 fire damage
Ignition; area burst 1 w/in 10: +8 vs Fort; 1d10+12 fire damage

I made the exact same character, only with a CHA 20 and CON 16, giving me an extra +1 on attack rolls. Ouch, I can see why this hurts.


How about playing a warlord, and using your action to make one of the existing strikers attack with +5 to damage?

I talked about this with another player and he was really excited about it, especially working together with the Rogue. So that class is already considered taken.


I feel like having a single high-op character is kind of a terrible decision. Particularly when you've got a low-op PC trying to fill the same role.

That said, a Revenant (Dwarf) Scout with the axe class feature and Dwarven Weapon Training can be frightening.

It's level 1, but there's also this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22105109/DPR_King_Candidates_2.0?post_num=1388#505950823).

It's worth noting that if you plan for this campaign to continue for more than a few levels, Ranger is still the best decision.
He won't be the only high-op character. The other player playing the striker said he's going ''quite high OP'' this time (I have faith in him), and I'm playing a semi-optimized defender. Also, that Warlock/Executioner looks scary. I'm going to look into that Revenant build.

[ghost_warlock]

I made the exact same character, only with a CHA 20 and CON 16, giving me an extra +1 on attack rolls. Ouch, I can see why this hurts.

It gets even worse when you realize that this character doesn't even have expertise/implement focus feats yet and all of the attack/damage bonuses already in place will stack with those when you get around to taking them. As well as all the sorcerer "spellfuy" feats. :smalltongue: Really, the only thing that won't stack is if someone gives him a power bonus to attack rolls, since Infernal Price gives him a +1 power bonus to fire attack rolls.

Edit: for extra fun in paragon admix thunder and grab Resounding Thunder. Suddenly your ignition is an area burst 2. While you're at it, grab Mark of Storm and Lyrandar Wind-Rider to add +1 to hit and your Con mod to the damage again. :smallbiggrin:

[Gavran]

Oh, alright! That's perfectly fine and fun then. Be sure to remind the rogue's player that the internet is full of people eager to help him too. I feel like a DPR-op'd Fighter and certain Avengers might be able to compete in the "Who is the best Heroic Striker" game as well. Nothing wrong with sorcerers either, it's just that single-target damage is easier to evaluate, since it's always working at 100% efficiency.

[tcrudisi]

At level 3? I'm partial to the Barbarian. I saw one crit for over 50 damage at level 1 without a magical weapon. He ended up doing almost 70 damage that round without spending an action point.

Plus, if someone is playing a Warlord, you'll be their best friend.

If you don't want to go with a Barbarian, a Sorc would work well, too. Granted, that's not a single target striker, but you already have a Rogue, so why not?

Ranger is actually a pretty poor choice at level 3. They are only average strikers until about late heroic when they take over the damage-dealing crown and don't let it go.

[ghost_warlock]

At level 3? I'm partial to the Barbarian. I saw one crit for over 50 damage at level 1 without a magical weapon. He ended up doing almost 70 damage that round without spending an action point.

They do have Life Ending Strike as a level 1 daily. Deals 4[W] and can be used as a charge. With something like a maul, heavy flail, or gouge, that's 8d6+Str mod. Or, in the case of a bugbear, 8d8. :smalleek: Of course, a bugbear with a maul can run back and forth across the map dealing 2d8+1d6+Str mod at will with Howling Strike.

At 3rd level you can easily gear up with a vanguard weapon (level 3), a badge of the berserker (level 2), boots of adept charging (level 2), and bestial armor (level 3; as your level 4 item) and then...run with it. :smallcool:

[Tegu8788]

Fire Elementalist, Barbarian, Ranger, are all solid options.

But I'd say the Executioner|Warlock could take any of them. Mindbite Scorn to get a second d6, then bump it up to a d8 for your second feat. If Human, get yourself Shadow Walk to bump your defenses and accuracy. At-will every round your cursed target gets 4d8 plus mods if you use a rapier. Pact blade for implement powers or vanguard for more charge damage. If you've got a warlord, he'll love you too. Build it and Con and Int so you are hearty enough to be in melee, and have fun.

[UndertakerSheep]

These are some great suggestions guys! I'm going to talk all of them over with the player tomorrow. I'm thinking she's gonna go for the barbarian or sorcerer, but my favorite so far is the Executioner/Warlock. The Avenger surprises me. It's my favorite striker but I've never built one that was stronger than an okay striker.

On a side note, I've talked with the DM and he said he's interested in such an optimized party. Is there an awesome way to get the most of my Knight's Aura? I have World Serpent's Grasp to knock everyone prone. What controller would fit with this best?

[Epinephrine]

TOr, in the case of a bugbear, 8d8. :smalleek: Of course, a bugbear with a maul can run back and forth across the map dealing 2d8+1d6+Str mod at will with Howling Strike.

+1 Avalanche Maul (just affordable for a 3rd level character), so that his charge attacks are +1[W] with a basic attack (I think Howling strike counts, I don't recall the exact wording, but +2d8 damage is worth pursuing).

[Surrealistik]

Tiefling Fire Elementalist with the Guardian or Infernal Prince theme, Eagle Eye Goggles, Hellfire Blood, Superior Implement Training (Incendiary Dagger) + a Rebounding Incendiary Dagger with a Bracers of the Perfect Shot + Khyber Shard of the Fiery Depth. You could drop Bracers or Khyber for Flowform Robes if you're concerned about your defenses.

Insane Ranged Basic damage that's deadly accurate, to say nothing of Elemental Escalation. 18.975 or 20.125 fire damage (with Infernal Prince) at L3 per round for your basic at-will on average _after_ factoring in accuracy vs a same level monster with a standard Reflex defense. With Elemental Escalation you deal 47.20 damage (50.05 with Infernal Prince) average per round it's used after factoring accuracy. Then if you ever miss, once each encounter you can always rebound a shot with Rebounding Dagger. This also works for getting an RBA off vs an enemy that provokes you. All of this is of course at range, which means you will almost never have issues maximizing your output.

Human variants of the above are known as Chris Hansen from Dateline NBC (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/713896/Photos/HellishChrisHansen.jpg). He specializes in making enemies 'take a seat' right over there in the Shadowfell.

There's also various flavours of twin strike and charge cheese.

[Firebug]

I am a big fan of Brick====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Brick, level 3
Human, Cleric/Fighter
Hybrid Cleric Option: Battle Cleric's Lore
Hybrid Talent Option: Fighter Combat Talent
Fighter Combat Talent Option: Brawler Style (Hybrid)
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-Will Power
Born Under a Bad Sign (Born Under a Bad Sign Benefit)
Theme: Reaver

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 8

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 10, DEX 13, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 8


AC: 21 Fort: 20 Ref: 13 Will: 14
HP: 43 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Athletics +11, Endurance +6, Heal +7, Insight +7

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +1, Bluff +0, Diplomacy +0, Dungeoneering +2, History +1, Intimidate +0, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +1, Stealth +2, Streetwise +0, Thievery +2

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Reaver Attack: Vicious Assault
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Fighter Attack 1: Slash and Pummel
Fighter Attack 1: Grappling Strike
Cleric Attack 1: Righteous Brand
Cleric Attack 1: Mighty Hew
Cleric Attack 1: Weapon of Astral Flame
Fighter Utility 2: Battle Fury Stance
Fighter Attack 3: Slamming Rush

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Master of the Fist
Level 2: Master at Arms

ITEMS
Monk unarmed strike x1
Scale Armor x1
====== End ======Without magical gear you are extremely accurate (level +9, so hitting on 3s with CA or 5s without), you have near defender AC (level +18). It doesn't have very much static damage, but Battle Fury stance helps at the expense of 2 AC. You have an encounter emergency heal... that increases the targets damage. Also higher then normal striker surges. You generally want to mark so you can punish them for attacking your mark, this works best if you have an artful dodger rogue ally to do the provoking. If the enemy provokes an opportunity attack, you can grab them with Grabbling Strike stopping their movement. If the enemy isn't marked and hits an ally adjacent to you can can still punish with Mighty Hew. You have multi-hits from your Daily for an encounter per day, and minion popping from Reaver and Slash and Pummel.

Essentially, you punch things into red mist with your secret punch-it-in-the-face fighting style.

[Damon_Tor]

Human Fighter/Ranger Hybrid, 20 str

Feats:
Hybrid Talent- Tempest Technique
Master of the Fist
Ki Focus Expertise

At-Will:
Twin Strike
*whatever

Encounter:
Off-Hand Strike
Parry and Riposte

Daily:
Probably Jaws of the Wolf but meh.

Utility:
Probably Battle Fury Stance

There you go, twin-striking at +11 attack for 1d8+4 damage. Later you can take Improved Monk Unarmed Strike to make your fists into d10s. Your AC won't be great (but not cripplingly low: you are wearing hide and have free two-weapon defense, after all), but that's what defenders, leaders, and controllers are for.

EDIT: The above numbers don't include any magical equipment, so assuming a +1 ki focus it would actually be a +12 attack and 1d8+5 damage twin strike.

[Surrealistik]

Honestly, it doesn't get stronger than that Fire Elementalist given the level range you're working with; 18.975 or 20.13 (if Infernal Prince) fire damage _average_ at-will, after accuracy is applied.

[Damon_Tor]

Honestly, it doesn't get stronger than that Fire Elementalist given the level range you're working with; 17.825 to 18.975 fire damage _average_ at-will, after accuracy is applied.

Assuming an opposing AC of 17, The Fighter/Ranger McMonk deals 18.63 damage at-will (not factoring in crits, because I assume you didn't either) and has much better encounter powers (two minor action attacks and an immediate interrupt) plus a daily power. Also, fire is the second-most resisted damage type in the game after necrotic. Plus, the sorcerer is ranged, which means you'll need to blow a feat on a reliable way to get combat advantage, whereas the ranger can flank.

EDIT: looks like you factored in crits while I was typing. Not math I feel like doing, but it's worthwhile noting that making 2 attacks per turn at will (more if you factor in encounter powers) is more likely to trigger a crit than one.

[Tegu8788]

I have fought against, and with, that Elementalist Surrealistik is talking about. He is terrifying.

[Surrealistik]

Assuming an opposing AC of 17, The Fighter/Ranger McMonk deals 18.63 damage at-will (not factoring in crits, because I assume you didn't either) and has much better encounter powers (two minor action attacks and an immediate interrupt) plus a daily power. Also, fire is the second-most resisted damage type in the game after necrotic. Plus, the sorcerer is ranged, which means you'll need to blow a feat on a reliable way to get combat advantage, whereas the ranger can flank.

EDIT: looks like you factored in crits while I was typing. Not math I feel like doing, but it's worthwhile noting that making 2 attacks per turn at will (more if you factor in encounter powers) is more likely to trigger a crit than one.

Actually I'd underestimated the accuracy.

But when you gather all the facts and sit down to do the math precisely:

I'm assuming an average L3 Reflex defense of 15 (Level + 12), and an attack modifier for the Elemental Bolt of either +10 or +11 depending on whether or not Infernal Prince was taken, which breaks down like this:

10/11 = 5 +1 Level +1 Goggles +1 Hellfire Blood +1 Incendiary Dagger +1 Enhancement (+1 Infernal Prince)

So you need a 5+ to hit (80% accuracy; 75% reg, 5% crit) without Infernal Prince and 4+ otherwise (85% accuracy; 80% reg, 5% crit).

The formulas work out like this:

(6.5+3.5+13)*.75+(12+6+13+3.5)*.05 = 18.975
(6.5+3.5+13)*.8+(12+6+13+3.5)*.05 = 20.125 (with Infernal Prince)

With Elemental Escalation (which can be done 2 / encounter at L3):

((6.5+3.5+5.5+13)*.75+(12+6+13+10+3.5)*.05)*2 = 47.20
((6.5+3.5+5.5+13)*.8+(12+6+13+10+3.5)*.05)*2 = 50.05 (with Infernal Prince)

[Damon_Tor]

So then, factoring in crits, Fighter/Ranger McMonk deals:

(9.5*0.75)+(9.5*0.75)+(3.5*.89)+(16.5*.05)+(16.5*. 05)+(6*.9)= 24.415 at will. As levels progress, this gap will only grow further.

Once per encounter you also get:
Sohei Flurry for another (9.5*0.75)+(16.5*.05)= 7.95
Off-Hand Strike for another (13.5*0.75)+(21.5*.05)=11.2
Parry and Riposte for another (13.5*0.75)+(21.5*.05)=11.2

Also, a daily power: the elementalist doesn't have any.

The elementalist does deal more damage twice per encounter, because he targets a second creature, while the ranger/fighter McMonk can deal all his damage to a single target. It's always better to have one target dead than have two targets bloodied.

[Surrealistik]

But where are you getting the 6*.9 at-will from?

[ghost_warlock]

Plus, the sorcerer is ranged, which means you'll need to blow a feat on a reliable way to get combat advantage, whereas the ranger can flank.

Why does the elementalist care about combat advantage? :smallconfused: I guess if you absolutely *must* hit that monster on a 2 or 3. :smalltongue:

[Surrealistik]

Fighter|Ranger DPR:

(4.5+5)*.8*2+(8+5+3.5)*0.05*2 (Twin Strike with Crit Damage)
+ 6*(1-.95^2)+3.5*(1-.15^2-0.0975) (Hunter's Quarry with Crit Damage)
= 20.515

Fire Elementalist DPR:

After factoring in the fire shard to the static damage mods I get +14 rather than +13:

5 + 2 (Elemental Magic) + 2 (Bracers of Perfect Shot) + 2 (Incendiary Dagger) + 1 (Fire Shard) + 1 (Hellfire Blood) + 1 (Enhancement Bonus)

So

(6.5+3.5+14)*.75+(12+6+14+3.5)*.05 = 19.775 (Guardian which means an off-action attack for another 19.775)
(6.5+3.5+14)*.8+(12+6+14+3.5)*.05 = 20.975 (Infernal Prince)

Comparing the total damage over the course of a 5 round combat:

20.515 * 5 = 102.575
Sohei Flurry for another (9.5*0.75)+(16.5*.05)= 7.95
Off-Hand Strike for another (13.5*0.75)+(21.5*.05)=11.2
Parry and Riposte for another (13.5*0.75)+(21.5*.05)=11.2

= 132.925 total (it's a smidge higher than this because you have more chances to trigger Quarry, but not appreciable; we could assume 134 damage if you like)

Factoring in Rebound damage from Rebounding Dagger (calced below as average damage of a regular RBA attack multiplied by the chance to miss at least once over the course of the encounter):

Rebound, Guardian:

((6.5+3.5+14)*.75+(12+6+14+3.5)*.05) *(1-.8^8) = 16.457

Rebound, Infernal Prince:

((6.5+3.5+14)*.8+(12+6+14+3.5)*.05) *(1-.85^7) = 14.251


Guardian Fire Elementalist:

19.775 * 4 (Including an attack from Guardian's Counter) = 79.10
+ 24.40 * 2 * 2 (4 attacks with Elemental Escalation) = 97.60
+ 16.457 (Rebound attack average)
= 193.157 total

Infernal Prince Fire Elementalist:

20.975 * 3 + 6 from Hellfire Heart = 68.925
+ 25.875 * 2 * 2 (4 attacks with Elemental Escalation) = 103.50
+ 14.251 (Rebound attack average)
= 186.676 total


Even if you amortize the Ranger/Fighter's daily over 4 combats, it probably won't be enough to bridge that gap.

Overall, I'd rather have the higher, ranged, more reliable and versatile damage of the Fire Elementalist that doesn't take a major output hit when I heal.

[UndertakerSheep]

So I created an Infernal Prince Tiefling Elementalist and a Charging Barbarian. My player loved both of them, but she choose the Tiefling. I now have another player lining up to play the Barbarian and a third player who's a lazylord to further beef up that Barbarian's damage.

The Barbarian: the best a charger can be?
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Brinjin, level 3
Bugbear, Barbarian
Build: Rageblood Barbarian
Feral Might Option: Rageblood Vigor

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 14, DEX 12, INT 10, WIS 8, CHA 11

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 14, DEX 10, INT 10, WIS 8, CHA 11


AC: 17 Fort: 19 Ref: 14 Will: 12
HP: 41 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +10, Endurance +7, Intimidate +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana +1, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +0, Heal +0, History +1, Insight +0, Nature +0, Perception +0, Religion +1, Stealth +3, Streetwise +1, Thievery +1

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Bugbear Racial Power: Predatory Eye
Barbarian Feature: Swift Charge
Barbarian Attack 1: Howling Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Foe to Foe
Barbarian Attack 1: Savage Cut
Barbarian Attack 1: Life-Ending Strike
Barbarian Utility 2: Shrug It Off
Barbarian Attack 3: Longstrike Charge

FEATS
Level 1: Powerful Charge
Level 2: Bludgeon Expertise

ITEMS
Vanguard Maul (Large) +1 x1
Boots of Adept Charging x1
Bestial Hide Armor +1 x1
Badge of the Berserker +1 x1
====== End ======

The player with the Shade Rogue turned out to only deal 13.5 damage per round (accuracy not calculated in) and decided to create an Enchantment Mage so he can slide everyone back into my Knight's zone of death.

I think this party is going to be awesome! Thanks for the help everyone!

Two things that still amaze me: high optimized Avenger builds and the Executioner/Warlock (with the Wizards community pages down, I can't figure out how to properly build this one). Can anyone explain one of the two to me?

[Surrealistik]

Pixie Charger Brutal Scoundrel Rogue is even better.

Gritty Sergeant Background (Rapier Proficiency)
Iron Wolf Warrior Theme

Surprising Charge + Streak of Light + Vanguard Rapier + Bracers of Mighty Striking + Badge of the Berserker + Boots of Adept Charging with 17 Strength/18 Dex (after mods or 18 Strength / 16 Dex (after mods)

Take Low-Slash and Dazing Strike/Skip the Rock. Tumble or Sneak in the Attack, or Agile Footwork to fly into the air until the end of your next turn where no one can reach you, and you can charge at will. Press the Advantage for your Daily.

Why Pixie? Because flying and Streak of Light allows you to manage a charge virtually all the time with Combat Advantage. Risky Shift taken next turn nearly guarantees that you'll always be able to charge without provoking, even with only one combatant (fly into the air if you don't have enough space horizontally). You could also take Light Blade Expertise to make your damage even more degenerate.

Dazing Strike and Low-Slash combo to inflict a poor man's stun on an enemy once per encounter (daze + slide and prone).

So, on a standard charge with CA which you always have due to Streak of Light, you deal:

3d8+2d6+11

After factoring in accuracy (+12 with Charge bonus and CA vs AC 17)

(4.5*3+3.5*2+4+7) * .75 + (8*3+6*2+4+7+4.5) * .05 = 26.2 DPR

Damage per Encounter:

26.2 * 5 + 3.5 (Iron Wolf Charge) = 134.5
(3.5*2+4+4.5+4) *.7 + (6*2+8+4+4) *.05 (Low Slash, Rapier, CA) = 15.05

Total: 149.55

Other good themes are Gloomwrought Emissary, Mercenary, Guardian (especially for maximizing damage output) and Chevalier (combos nicely with Boots of Adept Charging vs melee only).

[Damon_Tor]

high optimized Avenger builds

The best one I've come up with was a dwarf (or mul) who uses a gouge and is built around charging. The mul is probably better than the dwarf because they don't inherit their dwarf parent's stubby legs, giving them normal movement speed. You'll want to multiclass fighter or rogue for surprising charge, and you'll want Power of Skill to make Overwhelming Strike a melee basic attack. Because of the heavy feat requirements, the build doesn't really come into its own until late heroic.

[Epinephrine]

ITEMS
Vanguard Maul (Large) +1 x1

Again, I think that the Avalanche Maul may be better, at +1[W] on charge melee basics. Since you use Howling Strike as a melee basic (IIRC), it's +2d8 instead of +1d8 on the charge. It also has better crits than the Vanguard weapon, at +1d10 and knock prone.

Also, I would replace Bludgeon Expertise with Two Handed Weapon Expertise, it has a more useful +1 to damage on charges.

(Also, getting brutal 1 on the weapon adds 0.5 damage per die, so Weapon Proficiency: Mordenkrad might be better than Powerful Charge, as I think the extra damage on all attacks is better than +2 on charges; you should still see +2 on charges over a maul if you roll 2[W] on them)

EDIT: Looks like I misremembered the wording of Howling Strike, it's in place of a melee basic, not as a melee basic.

Still, the Vanguard Maul is hitting for 2d8 damage+1d6 (howling strike)+1d8 vanguard on a charge, with 1d8 crits, while the Avalanche Maul hits for 4d8 on a charge with +1d10 crits, so it's a marginally better weapon, if you can afford the 4+ enchantment rather than the 3+. It also has the advantage that you'd be swinging an MBA on your charge, so the low-level Bracers of Mighty Striking work with it. Conditional on using an avalanche weapon, the Mordenkrad would pay off; you'd do the same damage on a charge, but an extra point of damage on non-charge 1[W] attacks.

My suggestion is thus
FEATS
Level 1: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise
Level 2: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)

ITEMS
Avalanche Mordenkrad (Large) +1 x1
Boots of Adept Charging x1
Bracers of Mighty Striking x1
Badge of the Berserker +1 x1

Your version:
Charge with Howling Strike for 2d8+1d6+1d8+8, average 25 damage on hit (38+1d8 on crit)
This version: Charge with MBA for 4d8(b1)+9, average 29 damage on hit (41+1d10+knock prone on crit)
So about 4 more damage per hit with a charge.

One option to consider is actually to use a Slayer instead of a barbarian, very similar feel, but at this level I suspect it would have better damage and defenses.
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 3
Bugbear, Fighter (Slayer)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 20, CON 11, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 8

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 11, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 8


AC: 18 Fort: 19 Ref: 15 Will: 12
HP: 38 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 9

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +11, Endurance +6, Intimidate +7

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +4, Arcana +1, Bluff +0, Diplomacy +0, Dungeoneering +1, Heal +1, History +1, Insight +1, Nature +1, Perception +1, Religion +1, Stealth +6, Streetwise +0, Thievery +4

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Bugbear Racial Power: Predatory Eye
Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike
Fighter Utility: Berserker's Charge
Fighter Utility: Duelist's Assault
Endurance Utility 2: Grit and Spittle

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)
Level 2: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise

ITEMS
Avalanche Hammer Mordenkrad (Large) +1 x1
Bracers of Mighty Striking (heroic tier) x1
Boots of Adept Charging x1
Badge of the Berserker +1 x1
Scale Armor x1
====== End ======
The Slayer hits on a charge at +12 vs AC (+14 if he uses his charging stance) for 4d8b1+12 for 32 average per hit, or could select stances that deal more damage but aren't as accurate. It's about 15% more accurate than the barbarian (base Slayer +1 to attack rolls, stance for +2 to hit on charges) which is a lot more expected damage. You do give up a few goodies like Rampage, etc., and instead get two power strikes (triggered on hitting the target, add another 1[W] damage, so ~+10 damage twice per fight on attacks that have already connected). You could drop AC to match the AC of the barbarian by dropping Dex a couple of points and bringing Con to 13 (this is in non-magical armour, too - if you get magical armour you'll be harder to hit). It would cost a point of Reflex and a point of damage, but gets you back to 40 HP and 10 surges/surge value 10, if you feel that's important as a breaking point for 3rd level play. If allowed, you can take a theme like Sohei to get a minor action attack.

To duplicate the work done above for the other strikers:
Assuming you can charge each round (you don't provoke, you shift one away after hitting, so you can probably charge something?), against L3 foes (AC defense averages 14+level = 17) your at will charge hits on a 3+ and averages:
(32*0.85)+(0.05*49.5) = 29.675

Once per encounter you also get:
Sohei Flurry for another (13*0.7)+(24.5*.05)= 10.325
And twice per encounter on a hit you trigger your Power Strike for +10 expected damage, so that's another ~20.
So if you can charge each round, it's ~178 damage over a 5 round fight.

Perhaps not as solid as some examples above, but certainly not shabby. He would deliver a fair bit of damage, and isn't a bad choice for granting a MBA to, either.

[ghost_warlock]

Again, I think that the Avalanche Maul may be better, at +1[W] on charge melee basics. Since you use Howling Strike as a melee basic (IIRC), it's +2d8 instead of +1d8 on the charge. It also has better crits than the Vanguard weapon, at +1d10 and knock prone.

Also, I would replace Bludgeon Expertise with Two Handed Weapon Expertise, it has a more useful +1 to damage on charges.

(Also, getting brutal 1 on the weapon adds 0.5 damage per die, so Weapon Proficiency: Mordenkrad might be better than Powerful Charge, as I think the extra damage on all attacks is better than +2 on charges; you should still see +2 on charges over a maul if you roll 2[W] on them)

Solid advice. I don't know why anyone would take Powerful Charge before taking Weapon Focus or a superior weapon proficiency, anyway.

Also, Two-Handed Weapon Expertise does seem to be a much better feat than Bludgeon Expertise for pretty much everyone considering the options. I'm not sure that there's really a class with enough push powers to take good advantage of Bludgeon Expertise so the extra distance on a push comes across as an occasional gimmick to me. The only exception I can think of would be a hexhammer warlock, which would get some good mileage out of it, but would probably want to go with Versatile Expertise anyway since Bludgeon Expertise's to-hit bonus wouldn't apply to any of their implement powers. :smallsigh:


EDIT: Looks like I misremembered the wording of Howling Strike, it's in place of a melee basic, not as a melee basic.

Honestly, this entire debate has always seemed to be nothing more than pedantic word-mincing to me. :smalltongue:



*snip*

The Slayer hits on a charge at +12 vs AC (+14 if he uses his charging stance) for 4d8b1+12 for 32 average per hit, or could select stances that deal more damage but aren't as accurate. It's about 15% more accurate than the barbarian (base Slayer +1 to attack rolls, stance for +2 to hit on charges) which is a lot more expected damage. You do give up a few goodies like Rampage, etc., and instead get two power strikes (triggered on hitting the target, add another 1[W] damage, so ~+10 damage twice per fight on attacks that have already connected). You could drop AC to match the AC of the barbarian by dropping Dex a couple of points and bringing Con to 13 (this is in non-magical armour, too - if you get magical armour you'll be harder to hit). It would cost a point of Reflex and a point of damage, but gets you back to 40 HP and 10 surges/surge value 10, if you feel that's important as a breaking point for 3rd level play. If allowed, you can take a theme like Sohei to get a minor action attack.

To duplicate the work done above for the other strikers:
Assuming you can charge each round (you don't provoke, you shift one away after hitting, so you can probably charge something?), against L3 foes (AC defense averages 14+level = 17) your at will charge hits on a 3+ and averages:
(32*0.85)+(0.05*49.5) = 29.675

Once per encounter you also get:
Sohei Flurry for another (13*0.7)+(24.5*.05)= 10.325
And twice per encounter on a hit you trigger your Power Strike for +10 expected damage, so that's another ~20.
So if you can charge each round, it's ~178 damage over a 5 round fight.

Perhaps not as solid as some examples above, but certainly not shabby. He would deliver a fair bit of damage, and isn't a bad choice for granting a MBA to, either.

I'd say that the a big advantage the barbarian has over the slayer is variety (and access to, say, Life Ending Strike for when something absolutely has to die, or at least be bloodied). Still, at 3rd level there isn't that much variety even with a barbarian so it'd probably work. If the game was planning on heading into paragon, though, I wouldn't even consider the slayer because I'd be bored to tears playing one. :smalltongue:

Sure, the slayer is solid, but I think it significantly diminishes it's status as "solid" when you're spending 2-3 feats to poach powers from other classes in order to make it solid. Not that you really have anything else to spend those feats on by paragon anyway, I suppose. By 14th you'll have easily paid all the feat taxes, picked up all the primary damage boosters, and are looking for luxury items like Resilient Focus. :smallbiggrin: I guess it picks up again in Epic, but you can easily fit two (or even all three) of the Epic Fortitude/Reflex/Will feats into a slayer build even if you use a gouge and snag pretty much all the useful spear/axe feats (not every one of the feats will be useful for every character, after all, because they'll be severely MAD if they try).

[UndertakerSheep]

We had the first session of the campaign yesterday. The players really enjoyed their strikers! We only had one combat but it was clear the strikers were out-damaging everyone else.

The tiefling elementalist seemed to deal more damage on average, but when the barbarian rolled well he devastated the enemy with his avalanche mordenkrad. Thanks for the help everyone!

[Surrealistik]

Makes sense:

Bugbear Barbarian:

MBA Charge DPR: +12 vs AC 17 (not Howling since it doesn't work with Avalanche):

((10*2+7)*.7 + (16*2+7+5.5) * .05) = 21.125 DPR

DPE:

((10*2+7)*.7 + (16*2+7+5.5) * .05) * 4 = 84.5 (4x MBA Charges)
+ ((10*2+9)*.7 + (16*2+7+5.5) * .05) = 22.525 (Longstride Charge)

= DPE: 107.025

vs the Infernal Prince Tiefling's 20.975 DPR, 186.676 DPE. On the otherhand it deals an average of 44.5 + prone on a crit vs the Tiefling's 35.5.


To more fully assess the Slayer (with Guardian) since it caught my eye:

MBA Charge DPR: +14 vs AC 17 (Berserker's Charge stance active)

(10*2+10)*.85 + (16*2+10+5.5) * .05 = 27.875 DPR

DPE:

((10*2+10)*.85 + (16*2+10+5.5) * .05) * 5 = 139.375 (5x MBA Charges)
+ (10*(0.9995 - .05) + 16*.05)*2 = ~20.59 (Power Attack, after factoring in chance to get at least 2 hits)
+ ((10*1+10)*.75 + (16*1+10+5.5) * .05) = 16.575 (Guardian Attack; assuming Berserker Charge stance still active)

= 176.54 DPE

Damn, that's on par with the Tiefling Fire Elementalist. On the flipside, it assumes that you'll always get to charge all the time which won't be the case until you multiclass Rogue to snag Risky Shift (you'll want to anyways for Surprising Charge), or unless you are willing to take OA punishment. If you assume you only get to charge on 3 of 5 attacks, the DPE is ~155.94.

[Epinephrine]

We had the first session of the campaign yesterday. The players really enjoyed their strikers!

Good to hear! Glad they had fun :)