Gestalt Incarnum Help?

[GestaltDemon]

Hey, new member here so forgive me if this is in the wrong forum section.


I'm trying to create the best incarnum using fighter that gestalt combos can give.
If anyone has some tips I'd love to hear them.

The requirements are as follows: Level 15 maximum. Thats three lvls higher than the rest of the party, melee and incarnum onlg (sadly, I'm always more comfortable with the big dumb fighter roll.), all books are fair game as far as I know, gotta be gestalt and I have to work within the lvl 15 budget (which is pretty big thankfully).

The template I've been working on: half-elf race. soulborn/swordsage lvl 3, half-elf paragon/warblade lvl 3, totemist/human paragon lvl 4, incarnate/fighter lvl 4, titan bloodline major lvl 1 (personal variation ask if you want me to elaborate on it)
Str:26, dex:16, con:17, int:16, wis:18, cha:14. Base attack bonus 13/8/3. Saving throws fort: 22 total, 14 base, 3 modifier, 5 misc. Reflex: 22 total, 11 base, 3 modifier, 8 misc. will: 15 total, 11 base, 4 modifier. Armor class: 36 total and 115 hp. any ways to help me improve it?

[Feilith]

Well your build cant work as is. Soulborn requires LG, CG, LE, CE. And Incarnate requires one neutral component.

If you only want melee Soulborn is the melee incarnum class (Note: I'm not recomending you use it though) If you can have your DM let you use This fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441) of it. And then gestalt that with Fighter(utility) or Barb/Frenzied Berserker(Ubercharger) or paladin of X (Smiting) depending on what you wanna do

[GestaltDemon]

*stares dumbly* I can't believe I completely missed those alignment requirements......
Also, what is the difference between an ability inherent bonus and and ability enhancement bonus?

[Segev]

Is there a reason you're trying to take from all three Incarnum classes, rather than just running one all the way up?

I think either a totemist//((gish-friendly caster)) or an Incarnate//((solid fighter-type chassis)) would be your best bets as a basis. Add PrC to taste.

Totemist//Barbarian would be very...thematic.

Totemist//Druid could be terrifying, and you could drop from Druid to Warshaper or something if you want less casting.

Incarnate//Warblade or Incarnate//Swordsage could be good.

Totemist//Wu Jen might be interesting; I'm not overly familiar with the Wu Jen, but it has a reputation as a very gish-friendly caster type.

[Turion]

*stares dumbly* I can't believe I completely missed those alignment requirements......
Also, what is the difference between an ability inherent bonus and and ability enhancement bonus?

They're just different bonus types. You get inherent bonuses from wishes or stat tomes, while you get enhancement bonuses from items(gloves, belts, etc) and spells like bull's strength. Enhancement bonuses stack with inherent ones, but not with themselves. I believe the reverse is also true, but some types have special stacking rules.

[Fax Celestis]

They stack, for starters. Inherent comes from things like Tomes or wish, while enhancement bonuses generally come from equipment or buff spells (like bear's endurance).

Your build is all over the place. Don't do that. Stick with either totemist or incarnate on one side, stick all the other stuff on the other side. I would highly recommend going with incarnate over totemist: while I love me some totemist, incarnate is probably superior unless you go tiger claw focus on your initiators and go into bloodclaw master.

[GestaltDemon]

Sadly, I have to stick to the books. I'm lucky for him to allowed the lvl increase and gestalt. He usually requires any gestalt or anything even remotely broken to start two to three lvls behind the lowest party member.

[GestaltDemon]

My biggest thing with this character is I'm trying to break his strength ability and max his critical chance and damage.

[Fax Celestis]

Sadly, I have to stick to the books

Not sure what exactly you're saying here. You have to break your build up into levels like that? Why?

On an alternative tack, you could try something like one of these:

Half-Elf Incarnate 15//Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 5
Incarnate 15//Warblade 5/Totemist 5/Bloodclaw Master 5
Incarnate 15//Totemist 15
Totemist 15//Barbarian 5/Totem Rager 10

These are all incredibly solid, melee-focused, incarnum-based, simple builds.

[GestaltDemon]

Not sure what exactly you're saying here. You have to break your build up into levels like that? Why?


No, I can't use any homebrews or alternate rules that aren't specifically in the books. In other words, if my dm calls me on something I have to be able to crack open the hard covers and point it out.

[Yuki Akuma]

No, I can't use any homebrews or alternate rules that aren't specifically in the books. In other words, if my dm calls me on something I have to be able to crack open the hard covers and point it out.

No one has suggested any house rules or non-book material at all.

[GestaltDemon]

The first reply did. the one from feilith.. Thats a homebrew isn't it? I'm using a broken phone to access internet so all my replies are insanely slow.

[Fax Celestis]

The first reply did. the one from feilith.. Thats a homebrew isn't it? I'm using a broken phone to access internet so all my replies are insanely slow.

Ah, yeah, that one is, but honestly Soulborn as written is garbage.

[Yuki Akuma]

Oh, that. Yeah, okay.

Don't take Soulborn. It's awful. Especially for you. You get all the melee focus you need from your ToB side.

Take Incarnate or Totemist and stick with it. Preferably Incarnate.

Why are you taking levels in so many different classes anyway? Going by the books, your XP penalty will be horrible.

[Feilith]

Incarnate is your best bet if you can't use a solid fix for soulborn. If you're limited to only martial classes then Incarnate/Barb(FB) would be solid, but I'm not sure what you're concept is for this character.

Also sorry, didnt know if you were limited to books.

[GestaltDemon]

Yeah, have to agree with you there. And what I ment by breaking his str and the crit range/damage is that I took the half-elf patagon and the human paragon is for the +4 to any ability I want (str), on top of the +1 str from the titan bloodline and the +3 to any ability (again str) from level. All that on top of taking feats that increase att, damage and +9 to confirming a critical hit on my Large mercurial greatsword that does 8d8+13 on a critical hit and my Large lance that does 10d6+13 on critical hits. They both have critical threat ranges of 17-20. Now is that good or not enough?

[GestaltDemon]

I'm not worried about XP pemalties because my dm rarely gives xp. He usually waits 3-5 sessions and says lvl up. Sometimes we get to even choose an extra lvl or a random powerful item (usually very helpful to staying alive later)

[Person_Man]

In addition to a few interesting combos/tricks, Incarnate can do three big things well:

1) Necrocarum Circlet Bound to your Crown Chakra: Your most important and powerful soulmeld. This lets you summon a necrocarnum zombie (much more useful then a normal zombie) with hit dice limited by your meldshaper level, with a range of 30 ft (unlike Animate Dead, which has a range of touch), at-will, at no cost. It basically gives you a second Tier 4 character to control, which you can use as a tackle dummy, mount, flanking buddy, door opener/"trap finder," etc.

2) Skills: You can boost pretty much any Skill by +6 to +14ish (depending on your level) easily, and higher for certain Skills. Pay attention to the bonus types. Named bonuses (Insight, Enhancement, Competence, Vile, Exalted, Luck, Armor, Shield, etc) of the same type almost never stack, with the exception of Dodge bonuses.

3) Defense: You've got access to pretty much any defense you can think of. The most important are Vitality Belt (bonus hit points, which depends on your meldshaper level), Theraputic Mantle (buffs healing), Spellward Shirt (spell reistance), Wind Cloak (protects against ranged attacks), and (at low levels) Astral Vembraces.

Totemist is much more strait forward. Gets lots natural attacks, and has an easy time adding mobility, ranged, or certain Skill options.

Soulborn is terrible, in innumerable ways. Either use a fix like the War Soul that Feilith linked to above, or don't use it at all.

Keep these in mind when making your build decisions. Incarnate generally works best with a Skill monkey-ish gestalt, like Swordsage, Psychic Rogue, Rogue, Factotum, etc. Totemist works best when you know you're going to be making a full attack every round with natural or unarmed strikes, such as with a Druid, Wildshape Ranger, Psychic Warrior, or Unarmed Swordsage. War Soul is strait forward melee with some cool tricks thrown in, and gestalts well with pretty much anything that depends on using a weapon.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Incarnate is your best bet if you can't use a solid fix for soulborn. If you're limited to only martial classes then Incarnate/Barb(FB) would be solid, but I'm not sure what you're concept is for this character.

Also sorry, didnt know if you were limited to books.

Honestly, the best alignment (IMHO) for melee Incarnates is either NE or LN.


Not sure what exactly you're saying here. You have to break your build up into levels like that? Why?

On an alternative tack, you could try something like one of these:

Half-Elf Incarnate 15//Warblade 10/Eternal Blade 5
Incarnate 15//Warblade 5/Totemist 5/Bloodclaw Master 5
Incarnate 15//Totemist 15
Totemist 15//Barbarian 5/Totem Rager 10

These are all incredibly solid, melee-focused, incarnum-based, simple builds.

+1 to the Incarnate//Warblade build.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'm not worried about XP pemalties because my dm rarely gives xp. He usually waits 3-5 sessions and says lvl up. Sometimes we get to even choose an extra lvl or a random powerful item (usually very helpful to staying alive later)

That doesn't matter. Taking a ton of different classes is still terrible.

Sure, you'll have a lot of soulmelds and essentia. But you'll lack class abilities to actually make them worth anything. And your meldshaper level will be atrociously low.

Also, take Power Attack.

[Segev]

Sadly, I have to stick to the books. I'm lucky for him to allowed the lvl increase and gestalt. He usually requires any gestalt or anything even remotely broken to start two to three lvls behind the lowest party member.

Wait, the whole game isn't Gestalt, but you're building a Gestalt character? The other PCs are not?

[GestaltDemon]

As far as I know, no the other players aren't gestalt. But after my last character got two hit koed by a dragonogre created and backed up by a roomful of spellcasting yaun-ti, I asked him and he agreed. Anyone can play any combo in any book but the other members found ways to break their characters without it. I'm just very new to the game and dont know all the tricks.

[Person_Man]

As far as I know, no the other players aren't gestalt. But after my last character got two hit koed by a dragonogre created and backed up by a roomful of spellcasting yaun-ti, I asked him and he agreed. Anyone can play any combo in any book but the other members found ways to break their characters without it. I'm just very new to the game and dont know all the tricks.

Ah. Well then, the problem isn't your build. The problem is that you're using builds that have a low optimization floor (ie, if you choose the wrong crunch, you suck). For example, a Wizard is generally considered one of the most powerful and flexible classes in the game. But if you choose the wrong spells and/or cast them at the wrong time, you will suck horribly.

So my suggestion is to consider pure Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader, Beguiler, Totemist, Duskblade, or Dread Necromancer. Each of them has a fairly strait forward play style, and they're really hard to screw up.

[GestaltDemon]

My last character was pretty much pure sword sage....... still died horribly

[Grod_The_Giant]

For gestalt, Incarnate//Crusader, or Totemist//Barbarian (using the Complete Champion Lion Totem variant to grab pounce). Both options will be extremely survivable, have plenty of power, and have matching fluff.

But I have to agree that in this situation, a single-class build should be all you need. Straight Totemist is a winner. So is a Totem Rager, especially if you want pure melee power. That nets you up to a +7 insight bonus to damage when raging. With ALL your attacks. Do you know how many attacks you'll be able to make as a totemist? It'll be a lot.

[Waker]

Hmm, I want to add something to this topic, since it's an Incarnum thread, but everything that needs to be said has been.
To emphasize the point though, avoid the Soulborn. It's a crap class that's made especially redundant in a gestalt setting. Pair down the classes a bit, having that sampler set-up will give you lots of options, but they will be way underpowered for a character of your level.
If you wanted a character with good survivability, I would say go with a Crusader/Incarnate build. It's very straightforward, you're immune to damn near everything, you can heal yourself while attacking and you have a decent array of skill options. Try to wheedle your DM into allowing Therapeutic Mantle's healing to count maneuvers as spells to get a few more points out of it.

[Person_Man]

My last character was pretty much pure sword sage....... still died horribly

Don't fight on the front line of combat. This is the single most important way to survive. Play a class that can stand back and away from the action, and use battlefield control to keep enemies away from you. For good measure buy a Ring of Evasion and some Save and AC boosting magic items. And don't take any stupid risks. This is the single most important thing any build can do to survive.

Fearless Destiny Feat: Once per day when you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are instead reduced to -9 and stable. Requires human type (which Azurin race also qualifies for). Races of Destiny pg 152.

Theraputic Mantle soulmeld: Increases the effectiveness of any "spell or effect that heals hit point damage" on you by Spell Level + (2*essentia invested). The overlooked trick with this soulmeld is that it specifically works on any effect that heals hit points, and not just spells. Which means you can stack it with Divine Spirit, a Vampiric Weapon, Fast Healing, etc, make a full attack each round, and basically fully heal your hit points. Works very well with a Crusader//Incarnate or Cleric//Incarnate.

Claws of the Beast psionic power + Claws of the Vampire psionic power + effective size increases (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777) (Expansion power, Improved Natural Attack Feat, etc) + Karmic Strike Feat + Robilar's Gambut Feat + Combat Reflexes + Intuitive Attack (Wis to hit). This is a classic Psychic Warrior build known as the King of Smack. You get claws that deal a lot of damage, plus you heal 50% of the damage you deal. You can also use the Inertial Armor with a Monks Belt for fairly high AC, and Vigor power for bonus hit points, Share Pain to transfer damage, Elan race for other bonuses, and various other protections. It's really one of the hardest builds in the world to kill, unless you purposefully go the "masochist" route and dump your AC in an attempt to trigger more attacks of opportunity.

Tomb Tainted Soul: You are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive. Now convince one of your allies to take the Lord of the Uttercold or Enervated metamagic Feats, so that they can dump area of effect spells in the middle of combat to heal you and harm (non-undead) enemies. Libris Mortis pg 31.

Dahlver-Nar vestige: Binder 1 option. Dahlver-Nar's "Shield Self" ability has no duration as long as you stay within range, and shifts 50% of the damage you take to your target. So prior to combat, you use it on a mount or minion, and you're basically walking into every combat taking only 50% damage. If there's a particular "boss" enemy, then you can shift Shield Self onto him (although it allows a Save).

Cunning Evasion feat: When you successfully use Evasion you get an Immediate Action 5 ft step and Hide check. PHBII. A hidden creature can't be directly targeted (though creatures can guess your square) unless they make a successful Spot check. Again, have an ally dump an area of effect attack on you when you're done attacking, or just buy an Explosive weapon (Complete Warrior) which creates a 5 ft explosion when you hit an enemy, and you can trigger it on yourself. For Hide in Plain Site (and other bonuses) you can buy a Collar of Umbral Metamophosis from Tome of Magic pg 156.

Minor Shapeshift: As long as you have any Polymorph spell of 4th level or higher memorized, you can spend a Swift Action to give yourself temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice. (Basically a superior version of Stone Power, but with no penalty to hit. Though you obviously have to be a caster of some sort to use it). Complete Arcane pg 45.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Just a note - Minor Shapeshift is a [reserve] feat from Complete Mage, not Complete Arcane.

Otherwise, it's typical Person Man advice (solid and practical).

[GestaltDemon]

Ok, we dont have any spellcasters so the aoe effects person man said wont work. So far our party consists of a dragonfire adept, a kender monk, a Kobold bomb maker (it uses bombs that explode when jiggled too much...that Kobold wont end well and may take half the party with him), some sort of psychic summoner that never sleeps(not sure what its called), and my old swordsage that bit the dust. Also, I dont use spellcastets cause I personally find them not my type of strong and psychic characters confuse me utterly. I dont want a character that sits on the sidelines and hurls things or shoots a bow or casts spells. I want to be that fighter with a feat for everything and a critical hit to be feared that happens almost every turn and his armor class so high noone can touch him. Cant anyone show me a build that can do that???

[Waker]

Ok, we dont have any spellcasters so the aoe effects person man said wont work. So far our party consists of a dragonfire adept, a kender monk, a Kobold bomb maker (it uses bombs that explode when jiggled too much...that Kobold wont end well and may take half the party with him), some sort of psychic summoner that never sleeps(not sure what its called), and my old swordsage that bit the dust. Also, I dont use spellcastets cause I personally find them not my type of strong and psychic characters confuse me utterly. I dont want a character that sits on the sidelines and hurls things or shoots a bow or casts spells. I want to be that fighter with a feat for everything and a critical hit to be feared that happens almost every turn and his armor class so high noone can touch him. Cant anyone show me a build that can do that???

You want to be a front-line fighter with a bunch of critical hits and high ac? You might be able to work with a Warblade/Totemist mash up. I'd say focus on Tiger Claw maneuvers to maximize your many natural attacks. Totemist is there to grant you all those extra attacks, as well as movement. Some decent melds to look at are Blink Shirt, Displacer Cloak, the Arms Bind for Dread Carapace, Girallon Arms is always popular, Sphinx Claws...