Bestow Curse Part 2: Suggestion Needed

[Novercalis]

QUESTIONS ARE IN BOLD

Due to being LE, A follower of Loviatar.... I kinda need to Curse my party members to continue adventuring with the group. Basically having them as my hostage and doing a Quest for my church.

Problem is - I am not the only Cleric - The party does have a Neutral cleric.(not sure if L,C or True)

How can I go about cursing them all and not having that cleric remove curse.
Is it feesible to do this:

Monk - Curse a bracelet that gives him -4 to grappling - He won't know he has been curse because, for all he knows, the person/creature he is grappling is stronger than him.
Does that sound good?

Sorcerer - 10% chance to misdirect attack, hitting Allies or other targets - Will this cause him suspicion that he may have a curse item? If so, what type of curse would you recommend that is VERY SUBTLE. Obviously attacking his CHA will be noticeable.

Cleric - What can I curse him without him realizing it? I kinda wanted to Curse him something that prevents him from removing Curse... But at the same time, he will know about it and can easily find a local cleric and have it removed than check the entire group for curses.

So should I leave him alone??? if I do curse him, HOW would you do it without him ever finding out?


Druid - All Animals are Hostile to her (except for her current animals) OR
-4 to DC on befriending animals.

Which one is better and subtle yet effective?.


How does Bestow Curse work? Can I curse a weapon/armor and give it to them?

[Segev]

Okay.

This is out-and-out PvP. And while some of the PCs have been jerks to yours, and I could understand it being done IC, this gets into some potentially not-cool OOC territory.

Is the DM requiring this of you? Is he doing so with the consent of the other players? Is this just one option? Does he present this with the intent that it be a non-choice (leading to you "falling" and having to find a new religion), or does he fully expect you to follow through with it?

This kind of thing may be "in character" for neutral evil. It seems a bit out of character for LE, because it's not really enslaving at all. It's just weakening. To get them "enslaved" would take making them penalized only when they go against you. If the goal is to make them go on a quest for your church to get rid of these curses, you'd need to get them cursed without knowing YOU had done it, then be the benevolent patron who gets them an audience with a church that will remove the curses if they do the church a favor.

[Novercalis]

Okay.

This is out-and-out PvP. And while some of the PCs have been jerks to yours, and I could understand it being done IC, this gets into some potentially not-cool OOC territory.

Is the DM requiring this of you? Is he doing so with the consent of the other players? Is this just one option? Does he present this with the intent that it be a non-choice (leading to you "falling" and having to find a new religion), or does he fully expect you to follow through with it?

This kind of thing may be "in character" for neutral evil. It seems a bit out of character for LE, because it's not really enslaving at all. It's just weakening. To get them "enslaved" would take making them penalized only when they go against you. If the goal is to make them go on a quest for your church to get rid of these curses, you'd need to get them cursed without knowing YOU had done it, then be the benevolent patron who gets them an audience with a church that will remove the curses if they do the church a favor.


Not a DM thing but my idea. I won't be changing my religion at all.
The reasoning behind thoses curses is few things:

1) Cooperation from the party if they don't accept the New me in.
2) As a dedicated follower of Loviatar - Seems right I would somehow "weaken" them.

I can easily explain to the group, if they find out why I did it.

Reason would be - We believe by fighting with a handicap, learning how to endure, will make us stronger in the end. Such as the Marathoners who trains with Heavy Weights, making it harder for them. But upon removal will make them stronger/faster. I did not inform you because when yoo finally remove said items, you will have a huge moral boost, confidence, believing it was all natural. I apologize for the way I approached this but my intention was good.

It's in line with LE as I am following the church Agenda to spread pain/misery/suffering.
It is I who is cursing the 4 items and presenting it to them, "as a gift, from the church" for bringing back the "old me".

Eventually - It seems, I do become a "Boss", hopefully the Last Boss, depending how things plays out.DM has informed me that may occur.

After those curses, the only other thing left for me to do is get them all addicted to Liquid Pain eventually, somehow. After that, I have no need to mess with them at all until "It's time".

They already know I am a follower of Loviatar, so I need to do something to continue with the party cause they don't have any reason to let the old or new me into the group once we hit a city. Even though, my current cleric has now got the respect from them all, they are still uneasy of me controlling Undeads now and getting my hands very dirty, but it helped the group advance by doing so.

[Segev]

I hate to be raining on your parade, but this just smacks of potential OOC bad blood. I get the concerns about secrecy, obviously, when doing underhanded things to the party. But... are you sure the other players will be okay with this?

It may be that your current character just doesn't work with this party. It's always disappointing, but it happens sometimes.

I mean, I can try to help come up with ways to make this work, mechanically, and even pull one over on the party, but...all of my "being a good fellow-player" alarm bells are ringing at this one.

[Crake]

I hate to be raining on your parade, but this just smacks of potential OOC bad blood. I get the concerns about secrecy, obviously, when doing underhanded things to the party. But... are you sure the other players will be okay with this?

It may be that your current character just doesn't work with this party. It's always disappointing, but it happens sometimes.

I mean, I can try to help come up with ways to make this work, mechanically, and even pull one over on the party, but...all of my "being a good fellow-player" alarm bells are ringing at this one.

From the sounds of it, he may as well be playing the part of a DM plant, so I'd say it would be no less on par with the DM doing such a thing.

Edit: You're quite bold posting this kind of stuff on here, where other players in your group could potentially read it.

[Fax Celestis]

Sounds like you need some scrolls of this: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/geasQuest.htm

[Segev]

And if the DM really is feeling that way, and the players won't feel betrayed OOC by having a "mole" player, that's fine. I jsut want to make sure this really is "kosher" with his gaming table, and not a tragic case of thinking you're going along with the DM when you're really at risk of harming everybody's fun.


If it's something the other players will accept without it hurting their ability to enjoy the game...


You're a cleric of Loviator. They know what that god's about, so they're not going to buy some of the stunts I might otherwise suggest.

I would make the gifts be genuine gifts that seek to addict the PC to tenets of your faith. For the Monk, make the bracelet give his attacks the Vicious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#vicious) property. Once he dons it, he is cursed such that, whenever he is NOT wearing it, he suffers the suggested grapple penalties. He just can't take control if he can't inflict pain, and if he puts the bracelet back on, he's better at it again.

For the Druid, give her a "Beastmaster's Whip." It's a masterwork tool for Handle Animal (granting the standard +2 bonus), but any animal upon which she does not use it but which obeys her starts to behave...erratically. The Bestow Curse 50% chance of acting normally or of "doing nothing" gets replaced by a 50% chance of using the Confusion table. Use of the whip restores the creature's normal obedience/behavior for the day. This trains the druid to be a harsh taskmistress to her animals. If the DM plays it right, she'll never know it's the whip that causes the misbehavior, but instead will eventually notice that USING it effectively brings things back into line.

I'll have to think more on the Sorcerer and other Cleric.

[Novercalis]

I hate to be raining on your parade, but this just smacks of potential OOC bad blood. I get the concerns about secrecy, obviously, when doing underhanded things to the party. But... are you sure the other players will be okay with this?

It may be that your current character just doesn't work with this party. It's always disappointing, but it happens sometimes.

I mean, I can try to help come up with ways to make this work, mechanically, and even pull one over on the party, but...all of my "being a good fellow-player" alarm bells are ringing at this one.


All of this isnt confirmed to occur. It is up to the DM to decide officially if I am gonna betray the group and become the villain that has to fight them all, then I need to begin preparing subtle ways.

This action won't be happening anytime soon either. 8-10th level and we are only level 4-5.

I was just thinking again how to go about this

monk - cursed item of bracelet
Sorcerer - Cursed item of back stratcher to clean his new dragon scales. He likes to be very clean.
Druid - cursed items - A broken whistle but she will only know, it's a silent wistle that attracts animals nearby within 30-60ft.
Cleric - cursed item a broken wand - He will only know that this wand detects curses.
The curse he will have is:
When he cast detects magic - he see's no aura
When he cast Remove Curse - he targets his boots.
When anyone asked if he has removed curse - he must reply Yes and sincerly believes he removed the curses from the others.


When they finally figure the curse wasn't remove - I'll act confused and say, didn't he removed them? He will recast Detect Magic and see no aura.
Saying those items arent cursed.

If they persist and ask for me to cast, just in case, remove curse, I will oblige and remove it and the other cleric can re-confirm after casting detect magic that there is no aura. I either stay silent unless they question me about why those items were cursed. I'll explain to them why, IF the church did it, their reasoning behind it (as noted above in my "reason would be" and I had no idea about it)

They may become a bit suspicious but I will do everything and aplogize in behalf of the church, if at all.

[Novercalis]

we all play IRL and they all OOC like the idea of killing me anyways, jokingly. One mentioned, as a joke I become the last Boss and my DM enjoyed the Idea.
Our DM is Cruel. He has been throwing us things that should have killed us.

We have faced a Vampire at lvl 2 which we manage to survive the encounter by thwarting the vampire plan.

We have faced dragon turtles, a Necromancer with 2 red wizard who basically threaten all 3 pirates king. One of which Soloed a Dragon Turtle.

We have faced a Were Dire Shark Giant, thx to a random NPC, manage to run away.

Recently 10 zombie 10 skeleton 30 trogs 2 shambling mounds, several other plant creatures, hyena, A Gargoyle and a Will-o-wisp. All died but the wisp. We have 3 NPC +6 wolves + 1 dire wolf and a HUGE Sloth in our current quest that allowed us to win that battle.

We are being thrown things that we, as a party of 5 + dire badger - Can not kill basically so far. He likes making our lives extremely hard and paranoid. If we never had these high lvl NPCs during each encounters, we would have been dead.

So I honestly, knowing him - gonna have me battle them I think.

[RustyArmor]

If I played in this game the only possible way I'd remotely accept this, and the excuse given if caught, was if you also had a curse on yourself. "Yo party I will only join you if I can screw you over" sounds like kinda the default evil most parties simply don't enjoy in the group. When thinking of ideas like this you have to place yourself in their shoes and think how you will feel if someone did that same thing to you.

[Novercalis]

From the sounds of it, he may as well be playing the part of a DM plant, so I'd say it would be no less on par with the DM doing such a thing.

Edit: You're quite bold posting this kind of stuff on here, where other players in your group could potentially read it.


If they do, we are pretty good not meta gaming. So that isn't a concern.

[Novercalis]

And if the DM really is feeling that way, and the players won't feel betrayed OOC by having a "mole" player, that's fine. I jsut want to make sure this really is "kosher" with his gaming table, and not a tragic case of thinking you're going along with the DM when you're really at risk of harming everybody's fun.


If it's something the other players will accept without it hurting their ability to enjoy the game...


You're a cleric of Loviator. They know what that god's about, so they're not going to buy some of the stunts I might otherwise suggest.

I would make the gifts be genuine gifts that seek to addict the PC to tenets of your faith. For the Monk, make the bracelet give his attacks the Vicious (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#vicious) property. Once he dons it, he is cursed such that, whenever he is NOT wearing it, he suffers the suggested grapple penalties. He just can't take control if he can't inflict pain, and if he puts the bracelet back on, he's better at it again.

For the Druid, give her a "Beastmaster's Whip." It's a masterwork tool for Handle Animal (granting the standard +2 bonus), but any animal upon which she does not use it but which obeys her starts to behave...erratically. The Bestow Curse 50% chance of acting normally or of "doing nothing" gets replaced by a 50% chance of using the Confusion table. Use of the whip restores the creature's normal obedience/behavior for the day. This trains the druid to be a harsh taskmistress to her animals. If the DM plays it right, she'll never know it's the whip that causes the misbehavior, but instead will eventually notice that USING it effectively brings things back into line.

I'll have to think more on the Sorcerer and other Cleric.

LOVE the druid idea.

The monk idea makes no sense to me. Why would he remove the bracelet? He doesn't wear much and carry much. He loves to Wrestle/Grapple so I do need something that affects what he loves.
Just like the druid - having her now be mean to her animals is actually AMAZING!

Sorcerer is the cheerful one, charismatic and likes to drink. He just looted a platnium jewel en-crested mug. He has Dragon blood and slowly changing and is accepting it. He does like to play jokes here and there. Thus I figure the back stratcher when he cleans himself, cause he likes to stay pretty.
I don't want to damage his ability score or his CHA (appearance)

Monk - he wants to become the best crafter there is. He is very quiet. He likes to Help others and Healbot. He is almost the very nature of what my church HATES... however I figure him unable to remove curse + detect magic and sincerly believes he removed said curse, is obliged to say YES when question should be suffice. If not, no curse at all perhaps.

[Novercalis]

If I played in this game the only possible way I'd remotely accept this, and the excuse given if caught, was if you also had a curse on yourself. "Yo party I will only join you if I can screw you over" sounds like kinda the default evil most parties simply don't enjoy in the group. When thinking of ideas like this you have to place yourself in their shoes and think how you will feel if someone did that same thing to you.

I too will be cursed

1) I went from male to female, intentionally which is a benefit for me.
2) there will be a Drawback to my curse though and hopefully noticeable to the party.

[Segev]

Well, the Vicious tag causes him to do +2d6 damage with each unarmed strike, but also to take 1d6 damage when he deals it. He can't turn it off except by removing the bracelet. And removing the bracelet makes him less able to win in grapples.

An alternative effect would be having the bracelet cast Charm Monster on anything he successfully controls in a grapple. If somebody or something else successfully controls the grapple with him, however, it casts Charm Person on him (with the other thing grappling him being the thing with which he's Charmed). Removing the bracelet gives the -4 penalty to grapple checks. He's weaker in grapples without it, but with it, grappling becomes an uncomfortably dominant/submission situation for him. Even with the fact that unintelligent foes will break the Charm on him the moment they turn the hold to an attack, he gets Charmed again on the next round.


For the Cleric, perhaps have every time he casts a curative, restorative, curse-removing, or other such "fix a problem" spell on somebody, they become targetted with a Lesser Gaes/Quest to give to him "that which they value most in the world," while expressing their gratitude. If he returns that which they give him, whatever condition he removed returns. Curses and the like do so just be re-instating themselves. Damage might come about from a horrific accident befalling them, preferably just after they part ways with him so he has a good chance of noticing and running back to check.

As a Lawful cleric, a rule that he must accept payment from others for his services is not out of bounds. He may even grow to enjoy the riches it can bring him. But it is a price guaranteed to cause as much pain as possible in those he helps.

Something would need to be done to make this "work" with the party, though, so they aren't just always giving him everything. It would be too obvious. Maybe, if he knows your name, he can forgive the "debt" when you try to give him whatever it is. Non-Curse things afflict HIM with their consequences, then (which he can heal away with a second casting, targeting himself). Curses are re-instated when he uses their name to forgive the debt, anyway.


I still don't like that. It's not "clean" enough, doesn't serve its purpose quite right. I'll give it more thought.

[Fable Wright]

For the Cleric, perhaps have every time he casts a curative, restorative, curse-removing, or other such "fix a problem" spell on somebody, they become targetted with a Lesser Gaes/Quest to give to him "that which they value most in the world," while expressing their gratitude. If he returns that which they give him, whatever condition he removed returns. Curses and the like do so just be re-instating themselves. Damage might come about from a horrific accident befalling them, preferably just after they part ways with him so he has a good chance of noticing and running back to check.

-snip-

I still don't like that. It's not "clean" enough, doesn't serve its purpose quite right. I'll give it more thought.
Consider that every time he casts a fix-a-problem spell on someone in a city, the next day, two people with the same problem seek his help as well. For example, if he heals one man's lost arm, the next day, two more men with missing limbs beseech him for help in addition to whoever else needs his help. If he heals them, 4 appear the next day. Then 8. Then 16. And when he moves between cities, the number of people seeking his help stays the same, but they have lesser injuries. On the one hand, it gravitates people in need towards him, which he wants, so he might be okay with the curse. On the other hand, it will have him eventually confront more people than he could possibly heal on his own.

Thus, he is eventually forced to pass by the many in need, to randomly heal a few of their suffering, while giving and taking hope from the rest. In other words, he becomes a tool of Loviatar's Mercy.

For the sorcerer, try this: the first time he takes a drink in a given bar, he can Charm (DC = 10+1/2 character level + Cha) one individual, and a number of other individuals in the bar equal to his Charisma modifier fall madly in love with him. Not necessarily discriminated by gender, and not necessarily being obvious about it to him. Likely, he gets uncomfortable when the fat, ugly, and hairy bartender keeps coming into him, and when the enchanted people who discover their competitors are, things could get ugly, quickly. On the one hand, the free Heightened Charm is useful for working contacts, suspicious individuals, or hooking up with people (though he probably doesn't need help with that). On the other, disaster, bad feelings, and broken hearts follow in his wake. To him, it's in the background most of the time, but he spreads suffering in his wake.

For the Monk, the vicious bracelet is probably the best idea.

[mabriss lethe]

If you have access to it, why not use Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markOfJustice.htm) instead? Then you have a curse that doesn't hinder the party at all, until you need it.

[Segev]

I like that suggestion for the cleric. Make the "item" be the most obviously...problematic to use. It's a black pearl. Each time he causes physical or emotional pain to a creature, it turns a little bit redder. A successful Intimidate check, or a Bluff check that causes them to believe something painful, or a Diplomacy check that worsens their attitude by a step through deliberate cruelty suffices for "causes emotional pain." Inflicting at least 10 points or half their maximum hp in damage within one day's time and not healing it qualifies for physical pain.

The pearl "charges" off of this, gaining 1 HD-worth of charge for every HD of creature upon whom he inflicts this pain. He may use it as a Pearl of Power for any curative/healing type magic he chooses, draining 2 HD of "charge" for every level of spell he recovers with it. It has no cap, but it "leaks" at a rate of 10% of its current "charge" (round up) per day.

Its curse is, in fact, that it draws those who need healing to him, and spreads like an obsessive infection of the soul to others who are sick or hurt who interact with those he heals/uncurses/frees from enchantment/restores/cures/whatever.

While he can't use spells he recovers with its power on anybody who helped charge it within the last day, he certainly should notice it turning deep crimson when he has to start turning away large crowds of people in genuine need.

[Diarmuid]

What you're describing are not curses, but Geas (or other similar magics) as was previously mentioned.

Bestow Curse simply imparts penalties with no ability for the recipient to subvert those penalties through compliance/action/etc.

[Fable Wright]

What you're describing are not curses, but Geas (or other similar magics) as was previously mentioned.

Bestow Curse simply imparts penalties with no ability for the recipient to subvert those penalties through compliance/action/etc.

Not quite. Bestow Curse is an effect that is an effect no more powerful than a -4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability and skill checks, 50% chance of doing nothing every round, or a -6 penalty to an ability score. There is no text disallowing specific actions mitigating the effects of the curse, and a curse along the lines of "animals that you control that you do not whip have a 50% chance of acting Confused", "Twice as many people will seek you needing your help as you heal in a day", and so on are definitely within the domain of Bestow Curse.

[Diarmuid]

You place a curse on the subject. Choose one of the following three effects.
• –6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).
• –4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.
• Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.
You may also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above.


Nothing here makes any kind of stipulation about "if you do/dont do X then Y".

[Segev]

Which is why the curses suggested don't have an "obey or else" clause. They simply curse you with effects.

The druid is cursed to abuse animals. The cleric is cursed to be overwhelmed with people to help. The curses are subtle because they encourage certain behaviors. These behaviors twist the victim of the curse towards Loviator's ways. They aren't "be evil or bad stuff." They're inducements towards and ways to justify specific predilections.


Curse a man with an allergy to dogs, and you're not saying, "Stay away from dogs or you will suffer!" You're simply cursing him with something that has specific consequences if he acts in certain ways.