Sell Me on Avatar

[Libertad]

Airbender fans, here's your chance.

So I've been hearing a lot of good things about The Legend of Korra, which is a spiritual sequel of sorts to The Last Airbender.

It has a big fanbase on several websites I hang out, but I never really got into it.

Can I watch Korra without knowledge of the previous show? Will it be more entertaining if I follow Last Airbender first?

Since it was on Nickelodean, how much "kid humor" do the shows contain? As in things which kids would find funny but most adults wouldn't.

Edit: I just found out that I can find episodes of both series on nick.com. But is there any things I should keep in mind (limited amount of views for non-members, changes, etc)?

[Zevox]

It's probably best not to try and watch Legend of Korra without seeing Avatar: The Last Airbender first. It's not impossible, but there are characters that show up or are mentioned briefly whose significance you will completely miss without knowing the original show, and it helps to have a basic grounding in the setting.

To be honest though, I'd personally say Legend of Korra isn't all that good (season 1, anyway, which is all we have so far - season 2 starts Friday). It's fairly entertaining, mostly if you're already a fan of Avatar and want to see more of the world, but it has plenty of problems, especially in terms of pacing. I'm definitely hoping season 2 will prove an improvement, but as-is, while I'd highly recommend The Last Airbender, I wouldn't go around recommending Legend of Korra to anyone who wasn't already a fan of the series.

As far as "kid humor," there's a fair amount of that in early season 1 of The Last Airbender, but as the show went on it generally got very good about having humor both kids and adults would like. And I don't mean that it had separate jokes for kids and adults, though there were some rare occasions where it did, I mean that the humor mostly works regardless of the viewer's age.

Not sure if Nickelodeon's website has any restrictions unfortunately. I never ran into any when I missed episodes of the first season of Korra and used the site to catch up, but I could just as easily have been watching too little to run up against them.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Personally, I like Legend of Korra better than The Last Airbender.

For one thing, The Last Airbender started out very poorly with an uninteresting beginning with annoying characters. It underwent a very noticeable shift in tone after the first season; with the lighting, pacing, timing, and voice acting being much more natural (Sokka's voice actor really got to learn how to portray heartbreak, love, and other emotions at the end of season one; while before the majority of his lines were jokes). The show that people say is amazing started when quite at least one of the main directors and a few of the staff were replaced near the end of season one; and season two still had a few bum episodes.

So, what I am saying is that if you're looking for that show that those people on the internet like so much; you won't find it in most of the first season and some of the second; only later does it figure out what it wants to be.

Korra, on the other hand, started off with the precedent of the first show (so the makers of the show could learn what worked and what didn't); and it doesn't have to get through that period at the beginning of every show where it doesn't really know what it is.

So, if you never got into the first show; maybe you'll like this one.

At the least, it's worth a shot.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The original was flawed, but I'm a big fan. On the other hand, I loathe Legend of Korra.

So you can guess what my suggestion would be.

[Prince Raven]

You'd be better off watching Legend of Aang first. It's a pretty good show, even Doug Walker liked it. There's a bit of kid humour in some episodes but it's not to an annoying degree.

[Dienekes]

Without attempting to spoil too much, The Legend of Korra will make much more sense if you see The Last Airbender. The entire plot really relies on foreknowledge of several key episodes of TLA.

Of the two shows, currently I would say TLA is better than Korra. Yes, TLA has more childish humor, but the difference here is that in TLA you saw the characters mature along with the story and tone of the show. The first season has some problems, but it grew up fast and had some amazing moments that pushed what a child would ever understand and deeply emotional sections that seemed to make everyone but me cry (don't hold that it couldn't make me cry against it though, I have been widely informed I do not have a soul).

Korra suffers from several things, pacing being a major one. But also fairly dull characters *cough*Mako*cough.* In TLA the most generic of characters, Sokka, becomes a full three dimensional and likeable character by the end of the first season, and by the end of the series one of my personal favorites. Korra may reach that level by the end of its run, but as of now, when Mako was first introduced I mentioned on these boards "And here's our generic designated love interest for the show" and I was right. It's obvious, boring, and he's rather unlikeable when you look at his actions. Not evil or bad, just kind of a douche.

Also, Pro-bending. I hope you like watching make believe sports. But they had to get their action in somehow, and while TLA had a war to provide that where often death or capture was on the line, Korra has a boring sport where you can get wet.

That said I do not think Korra is a bad show. I wouldn't have put in the effort to type that much if I had. It can show really adult themes in a unique and entertaining package, the last two episodes had some fantastic and jaw dropping moments. But to get there can be a slog and even once you reach them there are some questionable moments. But hey, even the much loved Firefly had "Heart of Gold" and "The Message."

[Kawaii Soldier]

But is there any things I should keep in mind?

Zuko=studly man! :D ^o^ ;)

[Lappy9001]

Do you watch The Nostalgia Critic? If you're a fan, he does a nice series of vlogs of the entire series and Korra. It's spoilers, of course, but if you're a fan of Doug Walker's humor, it's neat to follow along with him :smallsmile: [here (http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/thatguywiththeglasses/specials)]

[Ramza00]

Both are wonderful shows (but for different reasons, think of the first one as a tv show while the second one as an ova).

The first show is free on amazon prime instant video
http://www.amazon.com/The-Boy-in-the-Iceberg/dp/B000GK68EG
The first show also used to be on netflix instant (but it was pulled) it may come back eventually.

[MLai]

The Last Airbender: Has more childish humor, with a younger cast of characters. But the backdrop (a world war) is dealt with quite seriously, and overall it's a good show.

The Legend Of Korra: Has teenage main characters, so their interaction is more "teenage" rather than "child." Also the backdrop had complex social themes and started out with great promise. But overall it's not as good of a show because of later bad decisions by the writers, partially ruining storylines and main characters.

[Eldan]

I tried watching it. Saw two or so episodes of TLA and, well. I couldn't. Every single voice in that show felt like a cheese grater in my ears. I'm not really sure why. It was like the worst dub of a foreign show I've ever seen.

[Kato]

Personally, I like Legend of Korra better than The Last Airbender.



I tried watching it. Saw two or so episodes of TLA and, well. I couldn't. Every single voice in that show felt like a cheese grater in my ears. I'm not really sure why. It was like the worst dub of a foreign show I've ever seen.

Wow, that's the first time I see such criticism on the first show :smallbiggrin:

Well, it obviously isn't for everyone but Legend of Aang is by most regarded as a very strong show. And I have to agree. While it certainly has flaws it still is a great show. Korra is good as well, but I say it has a few more problems which may or may not be due to production issues. It does have some strong points, though.

But while Korra is more mature in some regards, I'll have to agree it would be much better to watch the first three seasons first and follow up with Korra.

[BWR]

LoK makes a lot less sense without knowing A:tLA. History, characters, important plot elements, etc. will all be hard to fathom without knowing the events of the preceding series. You could probably read most of the stuff on an A:tLA wiki and jump straight into LoK.

The first season of A:tLA was slow and rather meh, but the show hit its stride around the end of season 1, and season 2 and on it just got better almost every step.

LoK season 1 suffered from poor pacing, some annoying characters, pro-Bending and a rather hurried and far too convenient wrap up of of the plot. Some of this was the writers not knowing if they'd be given a second season or not, so they tried to have a stand-alone story, but misjudged some issues. Despite all this, I quite liked it.
However, it set the stage for the modern world, how it changed since A:tLA and season 2 will (hopefully) be delving into some far more interesting stuff.

I cannot say one way or the other if you should continue watching. My gf introduced me to A:tLA and I wasn't impressed by the first half dozen episodes, but she insisted I watch it with her. I got hooked.
OTOH, she has insisted I (try to) watch MLP:FIM and I cannot stomach the show.

[Prince Raven]

I tried watching it. Saw two or so episodes of TLA and, well. I couldn't. Every single voice in that show felt like a cheese grater in my ears. I'm not really sure why. It was like the worst dub of a foreign show I've ever seen.

Which language did you watch it in? The original had pretty good voice acting, even gems like Mark Hamill, Mako Iwamatsu and Dante Bosco.

Yeah, the first season of LoK suffered from pacing issues, should have been the 20+ episodes per season LoA was instead of 12. Hopefully they'll rectify that in book 2.

[Eldan]

The English version. I wouldn't watch it in German, German dubs of most cartoons tend to be atrocious. Perhaps it was just those few episodes, but all the characters I saw were children with the worst case of dub voice I've ever seen.

Again, it seems to be a problem only I'm having. No one else I've talked to who's seen the show seems to think the voices were bad.

[Nourjan]

The English version. I wouldn't watch it in German, German dubs of most cartoons tend to be atrocious. Perhaps it was just those few episodes, but all the characters I saw were children with the worst case of dub voice I've ever seen.

Again, it seems to be a problem only I'm having. No one else I've talked to who's seen the show seems to think the voices were bad.


Yes , I think it is just you.Just about everyone else I've interacted or heard from think the the voice actors for the younger cast give excellent performance.Some of them WERE actually children,Aang's and Katara's VA were the same age as their characters(at least during the first season) .I wouldn't called the English version a dub,it seems to infer that the cartoon's original language was anything other then English.


Give it another chance,most people fall in love with the series at around half a dozen episodes.

[Dienekes]

Actually, I can kind of see where he's coming from. Sort of. Aang's voice took at least a couple of episodes to grow on me, and while not the voice actors fault I thought Katara and Sokka were pretty bland characters with not much interesting to say. It does hit its groove soon enough though and I would never have called it the worst dubbing I have ever heard by a long shot.

[Partysan]

The English version. I wouldn't watch it in German, German dubs of most cartoons tend to be atrocious. Perhaps it was just those few episodes, but all the characters I saw were children with the worst case of dub voice I've ever seen.

Again, it seems to be a problem only I'm having. No one else I've talked to who's seen the show seems to think the voices were bad.

The German dub isn't all that bad. I watch the show in English, but since I encountered it on tv first, I've seen a few German episodes and y'know, they tried. It's ok.

But yeah, I think the original voice actors do a great job, so it seems to be a personal thing.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Go watch the first series. It's a fair bit better planned than Korra, and Korra relies heavily on callbacks and references for both humor, emotional impact, and major plot points (without getting into details, the villain's entire shtick is based around stuff that happens near the end of TLA).

Give it around six episodes to hit its stride, I think, and the TLA sells itself.

Oh, and the kid humor is fairly strong in TLA early on, but it tapers off as the show gets more serious, and it's definitely not a gross-out show. Most of the humor is character-driven or pretty tame slapstick.

[Hyena]

I want to like Legend of Korra better, I really do. But it's so atrociously inferior, I can't even describe my dissappointment.
It had everything to be awesome. Strong female lead, mature themes, awesome villain with actually understandable goals, steampunk setting... and then I watched the episodes after the first. The characters are wrong, the pacing is wrong, in spite of supposedly mature themes, I haven't seen more childish and one-sided story in quite some time. Perhaps, the only thing that saves the show is the main villain, but even he goes downhill in the end.
The Last Airbender took the premise "Bad guy wants to conquer the world for kicks and giggles, kid hero stops him" and childish jokes and turned it into the best cartoon show since "Batman: The Animated Series". Hell, it even repeatedly hammers the point "enemies are generally good people too" into the head of the viewer, something that supposedly mature Legend of Korra utterly fails to do, portaying villains as generic puppy-kicking bastards.

[endoperez]

IIRC, the first episode or two of the first series grated on me. On episode 3 or so things started getting interesting, and the end of season 1 had me convinced of the show's greatness. Season 2 was superb, season 3 was good but there were more 'meh' episodes in it.

[Jyrnn]

Avatar: The Last Airbender also has Mako (Makoto Iwamatsu) in his last role going for it. The man was genius at character acting. He voices Uncle Iroh in the first two season and he pulls off the goofy/suddenly serious role perfectly.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Aang's voice is quite irritating; but by the last few episodes it was, well, not amazing; but fine (and, believe me, "fine" is a huge improvement over "quite irritating").

Katara's early voice is fine, I guess; but nothing really memorable (then again, I never liked Katara).

Sokka's early voice was good; and only got progressively better with comedic timing.

Zuko's early voice is the worst of the lot. Angsty whiny emo teenager trying too hard to put emotion in his voice. Seriously, it's hard to take seriously. However, prolonged scene-sharing with Mako really rubbed off on Zuko's Voice Actor, it would seem. By the end his "Where. Is. My. Mother." was legitimately a "that's so awesome I got chills" moment.

Iroh is voiced by Mako Iwamatsu. Enough said.

At the beginning, yeah, most of the voices were not very good; but they; like most of Avatar, improved as it went on.

[The Rose Dragon]

Zuko is weird. In early episodes, his voice sounds like a teenager whose voice is just entering adulthood, even though Dante Basco was over 30 at the time. By the end of the series, he sounds much more like an adult, even though it is unlikely a full year passed since the beginning of the series, and Zuko was already 16 at the start of the series. So I don't know what Basco was trying to do at first, and why he stopped doing it, but I think most of us can agree that Zuko's later voice is much better than his early one.

[Belkar_Fett]

Watch it if for nothing else but Toph. BEST CHARACTER EVER!!!

[Prince Raven]

The English version. I wouldn't watch it in German, German dubs of most cartoons tend to be atrocious. Perhaps it was just those few episodes, but all the characters I saw were children with the worst case of dub voice I've ever seen.

Again, it seems to be a problem only I'm having. No one else I've talked to who's seen the show seems to think the voices were bad.

Ok, I was confused when you said "dub", the English version is the original, not a dub.
I guess Legend of Aang is a bit like The Wheel of Time, it takes some time to get into it in the beginning but is great once you're a few episodes in.

[MLai]

Let's stop praising the story for a minute, and focus on the martial arts action choreography.....

I've seen a lot of animes. Disregarding that ATLA does not have blood and obvious deaths, it consistently has some of the best action choreography that you can find in ANY tv show, cartoon or anime. Forget about live action tv shows; those don't come close.

Korra had the same calibur of action, but less martial artsy.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

even Doug Walker liked it.

Yeah, that's a glowing reference right there.

[Kurgan]

I'd say if you plan on watching it, start with the original series. It is A) better in my opinion and B) Legend of Korra builds off of the world, with a fairly large number of connections to the previous series.

I was skeptical at first, but even the silliness of the first episode also had the darkness in sight, with the aged ship. By about....7 or 8 episodes in? I was a fan of the show.

My rundown:
Season 2 > Season 1 > Season 3 > Legend of Korra

Season 3 DID have some of the best episodes of the show, but it also had some of the worst, and some of the less interesting villains. Some of the recurring mooks in season 2 were more interesting than one of the villains of season 3. Season 1 started slow and had some meh episodes at the start, but when it hit its stride, it just kept going.

For those who want my opionion, I am referring to Rough Rhinos being more interesting than Sparky Sparky Boom Man

[Prince Raven]

Let's stop praising the story for a minute, and focus on the martial arts action choreography.....

I've seen a lot of animes. Disregarding that ATLA does not have blood and obvious deaths, it consistently has some of the best action choreography that you can find in ANY tv show, cartoon or anime. Forget about live action tv shows; those don't come close.

Korra had the same calibur of action, but less martial artsy.

The animation really is superb the whole way through, both action and non-action.

[Prime32]

Let's stop praising the story for a minute, and focus on the martial arts action choreography.....

I've seen a lot of animes. Disregarding that ATLA does not have blood and obvious deaths, it consistently has some of the best action choreography that you can find in ANY tv show, cartoon or anime. Forget about live action tv shows; those don't come close.

Korra had the same calibur of action, but less martial artsy.This. This this this. And the fighting styles are very distinct too - not only can you identify each style at a glance, you can tell when someone's using a particularly aggressive/defensive/unorthodox version of it.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'd say if you plan on watching it, start with the original series. It is A) better in my opinion and B) Legend of Korra builds off of the world, with a fairly large number of connections to the previous series.

I was skeptical at first, but even the silliness of the first episode also had the darkness in sight, with the aged ship. By about....7 or 8 episodes in? I was a fan of the show.

My rundown:
Season 2 > Season 1 > Season 3 > Legend of Korra

Season 3 DID have some of the best episodes of the show, but it also had some of the worst, and some of the less interesting villains. Some of the recurring mooks in season 2 were more interesting than one of the villains of season 3. Season 1 started slow and had some meh episodes at the start, but when it hit its stride, it just kept going.

For those who want my opionion, I am referring to Rough Rhinos being more interesting than Sparky Sparky Boom Man

Basically the show breaks down in what I like to call the Star Wars trilogy pattern:

The first installment (season) is a little goofy and a little cliché, but it's filled with likeable characters, iconic scenes, and sets up some really great stuff for the future.

The second season gets a little darker and a little more mature (really, a lot darker with stuff like Lake Laogai) as the writers branch out from their premise and get to flesh out the characters and ideas they set up in the first part. Also the climax of Season 2 is literally identical to the climax of ESB minus the I Am Your Father moment

Finally, the third season is a terrific finale with great setpieces and the culmination of amazing character arcs, which is detracted from slightly with some really weird directorial decisions. At least there's no Ewoks.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Let's stop praising the story for a minute, and focus on the martial arts action choreography.....

I've seen a lot of animes. Disregarding that ATLA does not have blood and obvious deaths, it consistently has some of the best action choreography that you can find in ANY tv show, cartoon or anime. Forget about live action tv shows; those don't come close.

Korra had the same calibur of action, but less martial artsy.
Very true! The animation itself is gorgeous, and the martial arts are deliciously grounded--it's one of the cool touches that I forget about. It's cool to see how the martial arts styles characterize everyone, too.

[SuperPanda]

Avatar: the Last Airbender (The Legend of Aang for non-US regions)

Hands down the best animated series I have ever watched, and heads and shoulders above most of the live actions series I have watched. The show requires one or two buy-ins from the audience, a couple of things the audience just has to accept part and parcel with the show, and it rewards you several times over for doing so. I'll get to those in a moment.

The premise of the show is Fantastic! Basically, this show was the answer to two guys asking themselves "Why are almost all fantasy stories set in Europe in the dark-ages? Can an Asian fantasy world work, or are people only willing to accept Fantasy with castles and knights and wizards?" To answer that question, the two American creators did an impressive amount of research into various Asian Legends, clothing styles, musical styles, art styles, writing systems, martial arts, myths and more. They brought in highly trained experts to make their breathtaking choreography (Rightfully praised in a post before this one).

The world they've made is dripping in a level of richness which is worthy of comparison to Tolkein (Middle earth almost certainly wins that, but its worthy of comparison to that standard).

The biggest buy-in the audience is forced accept is that the main characters are all rather young. Aang is 12 (well technically 112) abd I don't think the other characters are directly referenced by age. Katara and Zuko are clearly the oldest and are still firmly within the "teenage" range.

This is a buy-in for the series becuase the characters are going to act their age alot of the time. Zuko is at that stage where his body thinks its a man while his culture says he's a child, on top of that he has internal conflicts do to honor and self respect that run deep and are slowly explored in a wonderfully organic way as long as he remains an important character.

Aang is very much still a child and trying desperately to hold on to being a child in a world that needs him to be even more adult than the other adults. He is mentally and developmentally just not ready for that and the way he grapples with that challenge is again organic and artfully done. His struggle with what he needs to do is tragic, wonderful, and ocasionally hilarious all at the same time.

Katara doesn't get enough love. She's the most grown up of the lot and nearly all the time you'd have a hard time recognizing that she's still a kid. She certainly has a hard time recognizing it herself. Katara's backstory is presented for the viewer but doesn't get slow growth and time to play that Zuko and Aang's do. Her behavior is incredibly consistent with the circumstances of her youth though betraying a tragically strong and motherly character.

Sokka is the next of those buy-ins for the show. Tragic is a word that's fit into each of the other story centered characters so far and Sokka is, sort of, the comedic relief of the Gaang. At the start of the series, Sokka isn't very likeable and is presented so as not to be. Very quickly we start to see more of him though he continues to be the guy who walks head-first into the joke for much of the story. By the end of the series, Sokka is one of the most awesome and loveable characters in there series and genuinely very funny in a lot of moments (I love his poetry slam). Give him time, you'll be glad you did.

Iroh I won't mention much about, he's seven different kinds of awesome while seeming to be nothing but a doddering old fool. Iroh is very important to the plot and its better for having him.

There's more than one story and while calling it a Starwars trilogy format is generally accurate, I don't think its quite ideal. That said, I cant find a way to say it better while avoiding spoilers.

................................


Watch Avatar: The Last Airbender before you watch Legend of Korra. Korra spends significantly less time world building as it relies heavily on the world established in A:TLA. Korra's characters are good, but its continuity centered characters are amazing despite being presented as the B-cast in much of the story. Tenzin and family, Lin Bei Fong and co, and at least one antagonist all have strong connections to A:TLA not to mention several advances made in "magic" (aka bending) and technology are central to Korra's plot line.

Korra doesn't stand alone as a series as well as I would have liked, but it is still a very fun show. At the same time it is a very different show with older (still teenage) protagonist characters and even older supper characters (Tenzin and Lin are in their 50s).


There are flaws to both series, but there are flaws to everything that has ever been made for television. There are complaints about both series, mostly focused on the 4-part finale to A:tLA and the pacing in A:tLoK. The flaws are few and the praise worthy elements are many.

[Tengu_temp]

I tried watching it. Saw two or so episodes of TLA and, well. I couldn't. Every single voice in that show felt like a cheese grater in my ears. I'm not really sure why. It was like the worst dub of a foreign show I've ever seen.

In most shows, the kids are voiced by adults, ranging from "trying their best" to "not even trying" in their attempts to sound kid-like. But in Avatar, the kids are voiced by real kids. The disjunction between how you're used to hearing kids in animation, and how they actually sound for real, is what might've caused this.

[Eldan]

The premise of the show is Fantastic! Basically, this show was the answer to two guys asking themselves "Why are almost all fantasy stories set in Europe in the dark-ages? Can an Asian fantasy world work, or are people only willing to accept Fantasy with castles and knights and wizards?" To answer that question, the two American creators did an impressive amount of research into various Asian Legends, clothing styles, musical styles, art styles, writing systems, martial arts, myths and more. They brought in highly trained experts to make their breathtaking choreography (Rightfully praised in a post before this one).

Huh. It's almost hte opposite for me. Perhaps it's because I only watch Anime and never any American animated shows, but are there any even semi-decent cartoons set in medieval fantasy Europe? I know tons that use Asian legends, but barely any that make any use of Europe. Especially well researched medieval Europe instead of Hollywood's fantasy blender of 800 years of history and three dozen countries.

[The Rose Dragon]

In most shows, the kids are voiced by adults, ranging from "trying their best" to "not even trying" in their attempts to sound kid-like. But in Avatar, the kids are voiced by real kids. The disjunction between how you're used to hearing kids in animation, and how they actually sound for real, is what might've caused this.

Between Mae Whitman (who, granted, was only 18 when the series started, but still doesn't count as a kid), Dante Busco (who was 31) and Grey DeLisle (who was 33), I'm not sure about the whole "kids voiced by real kids" thing. Jessie Flower and Zach Tyler Eisen are the only ones who weren't adults when they started the show that I can think of.

Granted, Grey DeLisle usually does a fantastic job at teenage girl voices. And teenage guy voices, when she gets a shot at them.

[Tengu_temp]

Huh. It's almost hte opposite for me. Perhaps it's because I only watch Anime and never any American animated shows, but are there any even semi-decent cartoons set in medieval fantasy Europe? I know tons that use Asian legends, but barely any that make any use of Europe. Especially well researched medieval Europe instead of Hollywood's fantasy blender of 800 years of history and three dozen countries.

Western cartoons or anime? Because there's always Spice and Wolf, which, according to my history buff friends, is extremely historically accurate. And also shows that real medieval Europe was nothing like the pop culture perception.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Huh. It's almost hte opposite for me. Perhaps it's because I only watch Anime and never any American animated shows, but are there any even semi-decent cartoons set in medieval fantasy Europe? I know tons that use Asian legends, but barely any that make any use of Europe. Especially well researched medieval Europe instead of Hollywood's fantasy blender of 800 years of history and three dozen countries.

I can't recommend any cartoons, but as for books, I think you would like The King's Shadow by Elizabeth Alder. It's very well-researched and is one of the only medieval-fantasy books that truly gives a sense of place. Wales feels different from Wessex.

It's rather hard to find; but it truly makes you feel the superstitions and mindset and feelings of the mid 1000's.

[Eldan]

I can't recommend any cartoons, but as for books, I think you would like The King's Shadow by Elizabeth Alder. It's very well-researched and is one of the only medieval-fantasy books that truly gives a sense of place. Wales feels different from Wessex.

It's rather hard to find; but it truly makes you feel the superstitions and mindset and feelings of the mid 1000's.

Oh, books isn't a problem. I know tons of medieval fantasy and some that has done its research. (THough I didn't know your recommendatin, thanks).

I was thinking cartoons, however. I can't think of a single medieval fantasy cartoon.

Except Spice and Wolf, yeah. I should have thought of that. They put effort into that.

[Dienekes]

Western cartoons or anime? Because there's always Spice and Wolf, which, according to my history buff friends, is extremely historically accurate. And also shows that real medieval Europe was nothing like the pop culture perception.

This got me really excited. A cartoon that tries to truly represent Medieval Society? Awesome.

Then I googled it and the first image that came up was a catgirl wearing a mini-skirt. And all enthusiasm was lost instantaneously.

[thorgrim29]

Yeah, but I'm almost through the series and the only fanservice is in the first episode, for story reasons because Holo doesn't have clothes yet and hasn't quite figured out dress codes, and probably to have a racier episode to show networks.

It threw me off too but I found out about Spice and Wolf through TvTropes and they mentioned that it was just a first episode thing

[Kitten Champion]

There's also Berserk, which certainly doesn't glamorize its fantastical Dark Ages.

[Nerd-o-rama]

This got me really excited. A cartoon that tries to truly represent Medieval Society? Awesome.

Then I googled it and the first image that came up was a catgirl wearing a mini-skirt. And all enthusiasm was lost instantaneously.

She's a wolf.

I got nothin' else, I never watched this show.

[Eldan]

This got me really excited. A cartoon that tries to truly represent Medieval Society? Awesome.

Then I googled it and the first image that came up was a catgirl wearing a mini-skirt. And all enthusiasm was lost instantaneously.

Don't be too put off by that. It did put me off a bit, but at least listen to the story first.

The "catgirl" you saw is a pagan wolf goddess who has to flee from the setting's equivalent of Christianity. So she enlists the help of a small-scale travelling merchant to smuggle her across the setting equivalent of the Holy Roman Empire or the Italian city states to the far north.

It's actually pretty good. For some reason, googling seems to produce almost entirely fanservicey art of her, but as far as I can remember, she's pretty much always modestly dressed and often disguised with a hood and cloak.

It's also a romance show, though. So there's that.

[Saph]

I tried Avatar a year or two back. Watched the two-part pilot episode, but never got any further. I liked the visuals and the martial arts choreography, but the characters just didn't appeal.

[Prince Raven]

You've got to give them time to develop the characters before writing them off.

[Saph]

The whole point of a pilot episode (or pair of episodes) is to sell you on the series. I think it's fair to assume that the writers are leading with the best they've got to offer.

[Eldan]

Never understood that idea. "Just watch these three hours of bad television, it gets amazing after that!"

[The Rose Dragon]

Yeah, "it gets better" is usually code for "it'll bore you to bits before you can even have a chance of appreciating it". And for me, I often found myself replying "it would be categorically impossible for it to get worse", even if in slight hyperbole. Of course, I personally liked Avatar from the get-go, but I'm inclined to agree with Saph here, as far as the line of thought goes.

[Aotrs Commander]

You've got to give them time to develop the characters before writing them off.

Yes. As Doug Walker pointed out, one episode of Avatar is only half the length of a traditional one-episode live-action show. And the time to establish the characters is the same, regardless of format. So, while you can be put off by something almost immediately (and that's fair enough1), I find it's always worth giving it at least a couple of episodes, just to make sure that the first one you watched just isn't a bad one. In Avatar's case, it suffers from a case of a slow start (many things do, Lords of the Rings, even...) Avatar's complex enough character-wise that it stands easily in line (and often above) most live-action TV shows, so you need to give it at least as much time (i.e. double the number of episodes as you would on a live-action show) to give it the same chance. As it is, you've basically watched the pilot episode and nothing more.

If that's enough that you really don't like it, that's fair enough - saying it as much for the benefit of the general audience, really - but just noting that it does merit the equivilence of a live-action series.




The whole point of a pilot episode (or pair of episodes) is to sell you on the series. I think it's fair to assume that the writers are leading with the best they've got to offer.

I have yet to see any show (or to be fair, much of anything else) where that is actually true, though. Most series vastly improve over time, and the pilot episodes are rarely among the best even of a starting season. Mostly because, in a lot of cases, the show is still finding it's feet. While yes, it does need to make you interested in the rest of the show, expecting it to be the highpoint of the series is a bit unfair. (I'm not speaking of Avatar specifically, but shows in general now.)



If I was cynical - and I am - I would say the point of a pilot episode, at least anytime in the recent twn-fifteen years or so - is to sell the NETWORK the series.



1Despite the general recommendations, I just cannot bring myself to watch Adventure Time: the art style simply completely puts me off altogether.

[Finlam]

A lot of people are claiming that The Last Airbender has more childish humor than Legend of Korra. To that, I offer up this counterpoint:

http://atthebuzzerpodcast.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/meelo-be-the-leaf.jpg

As if that disturbing, uncanny valley, misshapen thing was bad enough in it's own right, it has significant air time with....fart jokes. Lots of them. O yeah, there's also jokes about nose picking! But that's humor for the adults, apparently =/

Bottom line, if you're still considering: The Legend of Korra is only barely worth watching at all. It has a good plot, a good villain, and good action sequences that it then proceeds to waste: the action sequences become boring sporting events, the plot becomes overshadowed by teenage hormones and attitude problems, and the previously intelligent villain picks up an extraordinarily large idiot-ball.

If you're still willing to put yourself through the tripe that was the Legend of Korra, go for it. You should still watch The Last Airbender first so you can A) understand everything that's going on, B) appreciate all the references, throwbacks, and follow up to the original, because that's all Korra has going for it, and only barely.

[EDIT]
Added spoiler to hide the hideousness.

[Nourjan]

The whole point of a pilot episode (or pair of episodes) is to sell you on the series. I think it's fair to assume that the writers are leading with the best they've got to offer.


Never understood that idea. "Just watch these three hours of bad television, it gets amazing after that!"


This is the first time anyone ever claim Avatar as "bad television".


In this particular case judging the story by the first two episode is just plain wrong.As I said, the story truly picks up after half 4-5 episode or so,people started to appreciate and fell in love with the show after around half a dozen episodes. I've met many didn't think much of Avatar after watching 1-2 episode, all of them now thinks Avatar as the best family show of any genre/medium after watching all the episodes.

Give it another run.You'll be doing yourself a favour .

[The Rose Dragon]

Oh gods please put that image in a spoiler box.

[Finlam]

Oh gods please put that image in a spoiler box.

Way ahead of ya ;)

[Saph]

Yes. As Doug Walker pointed out, one episode of Avatar is only half the length of a traditional one-episode live-action show. And the time to establish the characters is the same, regardless of format. So, while you can be put off by something almost immediately (and that's fair enough1), I find it's always worth giving it at least a couple of episodes, just to make sure that the first one you watched just isn't a bad one. In Avatar's case, it suffers from a case of a slow start (many things do, Lords of the Rings, even...) Avatar's complex enough character-wise that it stands easily in line (and often above) most live-action TV shows, so you need to give it at least as much time (i.e. double the number of episodes as you would on a live-action show) to give it the same chance. As it is, you've basically watched the pilot episode and nothing more.

Are the first couple of episodes really particularly unrepresentative, though? The problems I had with Avatar all showed up in the first couple of episodes, and I didn't get the feeling that the show was likely to change THAT much.

[Aotrs Commander]

As I said, the story truly picks up after half 4-5 episode

Which is, rememeber, only the equivilent of 90-110 minutes - the same as two to two-and-a-half epsiodes of a traditional liveaction TV show... Or a pilot movie two-parter.

Whether you want to invest that time, is, of course, up to you, but all we're saying is it's like watching the first half of the movie or the first part of a two-parter.




Are the first couple of episodes really particularly unrepresentative, though? The problems I had with Avatar all showed up in the first couple of episodes, and I didn't get the feeling that the show was likely to change THAT much.

In terms of characterisation, yes. The action sequences, well, they stay as good as that and get better, as does the animation.

But the characters aren't developed at this point: there hasn't been enough time. Zuko, you may think just the traditional angry bad guy, becomes one of the most complcatied and conflicted characters in the entire series.

Basically, Zuko would be a reasonable analogue to how G'Kar in Babylon 5 spent the pilot and the first couple of epsiode being just Generic Evil Guy and then developed into the spectacular character he was futher down the line. Sokka, while still being the comic relief throughout the serries, does get his moment to shine really well (though to be fair, it is a while before his talents start to show).

Aang is also much deeper than he first appears: episode four, is where they go to Aang's old home, the Southern Air Temple and (not really spoilers if you've seen the first episode), it is brought home to him, rather harshly, that it's been a hundred years and everyone he knew is dead. In the first couple of episodes, you havenm't seen him deal with that, because he's not let it sink in yet.

Actually, looking it up and bringing it to mind and remembering what happens in those first episodes, now that I look at it, the first two episodes of Avatar are not the complete pilot arc of that story: the first FOUR epsiodes are really the pilot. The more episodic bits don't start until episode five.

So, in order to give the show a fair shake, you have to watch the whole pilot arc, i.e. four epsiodes, hour and a half, same as you would watching the pilot for Babyon 5 or Stargate SG-1 (or ST:TNG/DS9/Voy/Enterprise or CSI or JAG etc etc etc), as that bit of the story is really a four-parter, the same length as a typical pilot movie. (As evidenced by the fact they didn't have a "part 1" or "part 2" label on those epsiodes.)

[Nourjan]

Basically, Zuko would be a reasonable analogue to how G'Kar in Babylon 5 spent the pilot and the first couple of epsiode being just Generic Evil Guy and then developed into the spectacular character he was futher down the line. Sokka, while still being the comic relief throughout the serries, does get his moment to shine really well (though to be fair, it is a while before his talents start to show).

Aang is also much deeper than he first appears: episode four, is where they go to Aang's old home, the Southern Air Temple and (not really spoilers if you've seen the first episode), it is brought home to him, rather harshly, that it's been a hundred years and everyone he knew is dead. In the first couple of episodes, you havenm't seen him deal with that, because he's not let it sink in yet.

Actually, looking it up and bringing it to mind and remembering what happens in those first episodes, now that I look at it, the first two episodes of Avatar are not the complete pilot arc of that story: the first FOUR epsiodes are really the pilot. The more episodic bits don't start until episode five.

So, in order to give the show a fair shake, you have to watch the whole pilot arc, i.e. four epsiodes, hour and a half, same as you would watching the pilot for Babyon 5 or Stargate SG-1 (or ST:TNG/DS9/Voy/Enterprise or CSI or JAG etc etc etc), as that bit of the story is really a four-parter, the same length as a typical pilot movie. (As evidenced by the fact they didn't have a "part 1" or "part 2" label on those epsiodes.)


I remember being completely unimpressed by the one or two of Babylon 5(not including the pilot episode which still failed to catch my attention) to the point that I missed almost the entire first season.After watching multiple episodes(starting from season 2) the show began to grow on me and now it is one of my favourite Scifi series.

[Saph]

But the characters aren't developed at this point: there hasn't been enough time. Zuko, you may think just the traditional angry bad guy, becomes one of the most complcatied and conflicted characters in the entire series.

I didn't mind Zuko, he actually came across as more interesting than the heroes.

Aang was . . . forgettable. Can't actually remember anything about him, except that he can turn into an invincible super-being at will, which pretty much kills any dramatic tension in the conflicts. It's like playing a D&D campaign where the party are level 3-5 but one guy has the ability to turn into an epic-level wizard whenever he wants.

Katara would have been the sort of character I liked, if they hadn't tried to simultaneously make her the put-upon character who we're supposed to sympathise with because she's discriminated against because of her gender, and the one who has freaking superpowers. (It's really hard to make a superhero an underdog, and the Avatar writers aren't good enough to pull it off.)

Sokka was what really turned me off the show, though. He's a muggle in a group of spellcasters, which would be fine if they'd chosen to cast him as the underdog, but instead they make him the dumb arrogant one who we're supposed to enjoy watching get humiliated. The scene where Zuko's beating him up was actively painful to watch. You've got a character who's the stupidest, weakest, and most ineffectual of the group – why did the writers think it was a good idea to make him the butt-monkey as well? Knocking a character off their pedestal only works if they've got anything to stand on. If they've got nothing going for them, then beating them down just feels pointlessly cruel.

[Finlam]

I didn't mind Zuko, he actually came across as more interesting than the heroes.

Aang was . . . forgettable. Can't actually remember anything about him, except that he can turn into an invincible super-being at will, which pretty much kills any dramatic tension in the conflicts. It's like playing a D&D campaign where the party are level 3-5 but one guy has the ability to turn into an epic-level wizard whenever he wants.

Katara would have been the sort of character I liked, if they hadn't tried to simultaneously make her the put-upon character who we're supposed to sympathise with because she's discriminated against because of her gender, and the one who has freaking superpowers. (It's really hard to make a superhero an underdog, and the Avatar writers aren't good enough to pull it off.)

Sokka was what really turned me off the show, though. He's a muggle in a group of spellcasters, which would be fine if they'd chosen to cast him as the underdog, but instead they make him the dumb arrogant one who we're supposed to enjoy watching get humiliated. The scene where Zuko's beating him up was actively painful to watch. You've got a character who's the stupidest, weakest, and most ineffectual of the group – why did the writers think it was a good idea to make him the butt-monkey as well? Knocking a character off their pedestal only works if they've got anything to stand on. If they've got nothing going for them, then beating them down just feels pointlessly cruel.
I agree that you should keep watching. I am quite confident that each point you did not like about the show is addressed and improved upon by leaps and bounds.

[Prime32]

Aang was . . . forgettable. Can't actually remember anything about him, except that he can turn into an invincible super-being at will, which pretty much kills any dramatic tension in the conflicts. It's like playing a D&D campaign where the party are level 3-5 but one guy has the ability to turn into an epic-level wizard whenever he wants."At will" is... not quite accurate.


Katara would have been the sort of character I liked, if they hadn't tried to simultaneously make her the put-upon character who we're supposed to sympathise with because she's discriminated against because of her gender, and the one who has freaking superpowers. (It's really hard to make a superhero an underdog, and the Avatar writers aren't good enough to pull it off.)

Sokka was what really turned me off the show, though. He's a muggle in a group of spellcasters, which would be fine if they'd chosen to cast him as the underdog, but instead they make him the dumb arrogant one who we're supposed to enjoy watching get humiliated.Sokka grows out of this very fast, and he's the only one who was discriminating against Katara in the first place.

[Saph]

I agree that you should keep watching. I am quite confident that each point you did not like about the show is addressed and improved upon by leaps and bounds.

So . . . Aang stops being able to turn into the Avatar, Katara's gender stops being an issue, and Sokka stops being the comic relief? From the episode summaries I've read, that doesn't seem to be what happens.

[Nourjan]

I didn't mind Zuko, he actually came across as more interesting than the heroes.

Aang was . . . forgettable. Can't actually remember anything about him, except that he can turn into an invincible super-being at will, which pretty much kills any dramatic tension in the conflicts. It's like playing a D&D campaign where the party are level 3-5 but one guy has the ability to turn into an epic-level wizard whenever he wants.

Katara would have been the sort of character I liked, if they hadn't tried to simultaneously make her the put-upon character who we're supposed to sympathise with because she's discriminated against because of her gender, and the one who has freaking superpowers. (It's really hard to make a superhero an underdog, and the Avatar writers aren't good enough to pull it off.)

Sokka was what really turned me off the show, though. He's a muggle in a group of spellcasters, which would be fine if they'd chosen to cast him as the underdog, but instead they make him the dumb arrogant one who we're supposed to enjoy watching get humiliated. The scene where Zuko's beating him up was actively painful to watch. You've got a character who's the stupidest, weakest, and most ineffectual of the group – why did the writers think it was a good idea to make him the butt-monkey as well? Knocking a character off their pedestal only works if they've got anything to stand on. If they've got nothing going for them, then beating them down just feels pointlessly cruel.

Wow, you'r way off base there.

You're describing characters that are completely alien to the Avatar fans,none who watch it through will have those impression.All those issues are addressed in the later episodes.I understand that you're out of your depth as you haven't seen enough of the show but it is rather ridiculous to based the entire character trait and dynamic(your's are way,way off) on such limited viewing.It is akin to reading half of the first chapters of a book and judging all the characters on that alone.

[Nourjan]

So . . . Aang stops being able to turn into the Avatar, Katara's gender stops being an issue, and Sokka stops being the comic relief? From the episode summaries I've read, that doesn't seem to be what happens.

Yes,Every single one of those things happened.

[Saph]

Wow, you'r way off base there.

You're describing characters that are completely alien to the Avatar fans,none who watch it through will have those impression.

That's probably because no-one who does see the characters that way does watch it all the way through, because they get turned off right at the start.

[Prime32]

:smallconfused: No, everyone saw them that way, then they had character development.

[Eldan]

Well, I've seen the first two episodes as well and I actually pretty much agree with that assessment, though I'd also add "annoying kid" to Aang's characterisation.

You compare it to a pilot movie for a TV show. Except I probably won't watch the entire movie either if it doesn't get interesting after the first half. If Firefly's first episode had started with Captain Reynolds as the only character sitting down and going over his ledgers for an hour, damn right I wouldn't have continued watching. I have quit pilot movies after half an hour if nothing interesting happened.
There has to be something early in a show to pull me in. Or I won't watch it. It's that simple.

[Saph]

:smallconfused: No, everyone saw them that way, then they had character development.

Then what's making the viewers keep watching that show, rather than the hundreds of others? It's not enough to just say "it gets better". There has to be something there to pull the audience in and make them tolerate the bad bits.

I mean, I know Avatar has lots of fans, but the fact is that I finished watching the pilot and didn't like any of the main characters. Other shows have better starts than that.

[Nourjan]

That's probably because no-one who does see the characters that way does watch it all the way through, because they get turned off right at the start.


Take a look at my post about Babylon 5 above.While I might agree with you that the first few episode of Avatar wasn't compelling to everyone, no one ,I've not met anyone (offline or online) who have seen the all the episode through that said Avatar is a bad or mediocre series.The consensus is it is at worst a very good/well done series and the opinion only get more positive from there.

Watch it.It'll be well worth your time.

[Super Evil User]

One thing I hated about Book II was how it portrayed Azula as a flawless, cunning, completely invincible Mary-Sue-ish villain.

The finale makes all of that bull**** worth it, but just barely.

[Nourjan]

You compare it to a pilot movie for a TV show. Except I probably won't watch the entire movie either if it doesn't get interesting after the first half. If Firefly's first episode had started with Captain Reynolds as the only character sitting down and going over his ledgers for an hour, damn right I wouldn't have continued watching. I have quit pilot movies after half an hour if nothing interesting happened.
There has to be something early in a show to pull me in. Or I won't watch it. It's that simple.

Funny you should bring Firefly into this.That would be another one of my favourite series in which the first two episode didn't captivate me.It is only years after the series got yanked that I began to watch them only because of the people in places frequent(online and offline)seems to hold it in high regard and fell in love with that series

Take it from my experience, this series is worth it.

[Aotrs Commander]

I didn't mind Zuko, he actually came across as more interesting than the heroes.

Aang was . . . forgettable. Can't actually remember anything about him, except that he can turn into an invincible super-being at will, which pretty much kills any dramatic tension in the conflicts. It's like playing a D&D campaign where the party are level 3-5 but one guy has the ability to turn into an epic-level wizard whenever he wants.

Actually, he can't. He doesn't really have any control over the Avatar State. (That's a major plot point down the line.) Put it this, way I think Aang goes into the Avatar State, what... five or six times in the entire series of 61 episodes, maybe?


Sokka was what really turned me off the show, though. He's a muggle in a group of spellcasters, which would be fine if they'd chosen to cast him as the underdog, but instead they make him the dumb arrogant one who we're supposed to enjoy watching get humiliated. The scene where Zuko's beating him up was actively painful to watch. You've got a character who's the stupidest, weakest, and most ineffectual of the group – why did the writers think it was a good idea to make him the butt-monkey as well? Knocking a character off their pedestal only works if they've got anything to stand on. If they've got nothing going for them, then beating them down just feels pointlessly cruel.

But note also that Sokka tried. All joking aside, and Zuko's casually dispatch notwithstanding, he went out there knowing he was completely overmatched, but he did it anyway. Because he thought it was the right thing to do. Even though, and let's be honest here, he knew he was probably going to die.

Sokka is not JUST the butt-monkey comic relief: as the series progresses, you see him show that he's actually really smart and when he's not too busy over-thinking everything and tripping himself up, he's quite competant. (If we want to be pedantic, Sokka is also technically the only one of the group who actually kills a bad guy at one point.)

Granted, it does take longer before Sokka gets to start shining than the other characters.



The thing with Avatar is the characters DEVELOP. And change and grow. That's part of what makes it so good. And in order for that to happen, they have to START from somewhere. And, let's face it, the further down you are, the higher you can rise.

Now, I'm not saying you'll like it (in fact, I'm pretty sure that you've decided you don't, and nothing we say is going to change that opinion), but I am saying that it is deeper than I think you're giving it credit for.

[Eldan]

Firefly is actually a really good example for me because, though the first two episodes weren't terribly exciting, the characters were interesting enough that I wanted to see more of them. So I did.

I didn't love the show after two episodes. But there were enough bits and pieces that I continued watching. In Avatar, I saw nothing.

[Nourjan]

Firefly is actually a really good example for me because, though the first two episodes weren't terribly exciting, the characters were interesting enough that I wanted to see more of them. So I did.

I didn't love the show after two episodes. But there were enough bits and pieces that I continued watching. In Avatar, I saw nothing.

I saw absolutely nothing in the first few episode of Babylon 5 or Firefly that would indicate that I would like those series .In fact I was convinced I would hate Babylon 5 and Firefly is nothing but a lame cowboy space opera at that time.Only after continuous viewing that both series began to grow on me and so on I began to love them.

I might be wrong but I have a strong feeling that your experience in viewing Avatar will mirror my one with those two series.

[Saph]

Actually, he can't. He doesn't really have any control over the Avatar State. (That's a major plot point down the line.) Put it this, way I think Aang goes into the Avatar State, what... five or six times in the entire series of 61 episodes, maybe?

Trouble is, putting it in the pilot like that makes it really obvious that he always has it as a final trump card whenever he's in serious trouble. So unless the bad guys are ruthless enough to just have a sniper kill him before he realises he's in danger (which, let's face it, is not going to happen because this is a show for kids) then it seriously reduces how scary they are.


Sokka is not JUST the butt-monkey comic relief: as the series progresses, you see him show that he's actually really smart and when he's not too busy over-thinking everything and tripping himself up, he's quite competant. (If we want to be pedantic, Sokka is also technically the only one of the group who actually kills a bad guy at one point.)

Granted, it does take longer before Sokka gets to start shining than the other characters.

The problem is, by the end of the pilot, I hated Sokka. And when you hate one of the protagonists it's really hard to motivate yourself to watch more of the series. It's great that he improves – well, actually, it's not, since given how low he starts from, I don't think he's got anywhere to go EXCEPT upwards – but if the show's already put you off that much then there has to be an absolutely massive payoff to make you struggle through more of it.

[Nourjan]

I get it , the pilot doesn't work for you .I'm still convinced (based on you post)that you'll like the series if you give it a chance


So unless the bad guys are ruthless enough to just have a sniper kill him before he realises he's in danger (which, let's face it, is not going to happen because this is a show for kids) then it seriously reduces how scary they are..

Hate to sound spoilerish but the bad guy ARE ruthless enough to do that (and they actually did).We are talking a story in which violence,murder, genocide ,torture , animal cruelty, and many more are shown and implied.The series explore the greyer aspect of the war(it's not only the bad guys that are doing questionable thing) very well.I would say that it is a family show not a pure "kids show".



there has to be an absolutely massive payoff to make you struggle through more of it.

Yes, the payoff is indeed massive.

[Saph]

Hate to sound spoilerish but the bad guy ARE ruthless enough to do that (and they actually did).

No they didn't. Aang does not get killed by the bad guys, he survives to the end and wins. I haven't even watched the show and I know you're making this up.

[The Rose Dragon]

No they didn't. Aang does not get killed by the bad guys, he survives to the end and wins. I haven't even watched the show and I know you're making this up.

He does get killed. Just not permanently. It is the same difference for narrative purposes, but the context is a bit of a shock.

[Nourjan]

No they didn't. Aang does not get killed by the bad guys, he survives to the end and wins. I haven't even watched the show and I know you're making this up.

Unlike like you I watched the show .I knew what I'm talking about.The people here can vouch for what I said.
Azula tried to kill Aang, she managed to cripple him (and put him into a coma) .As for Admiral Zhao(who had snipers and used them), there is a very good reason why he can't risk killing Aang yet,at least not until he wipe out the water tribe first .There are characters that are killed(made dead by other characters) on screen for real.There is a war going on.

I find it weird that you won't believe that people who had almost successfully committed genocide (there a reason he's called the last airbender) in the past(and will do again later) would pull their ppunches.

[Saph]

To be honest, I don't really care that much about how more or less powerful Aang is. I'd probably be fine with the Avatar thing if I liked Aang, instead of finding him kinda boring. I'll watch most shows if I like the character interactions. Firefly had good characters, B5 had good characters, and in both cases I liked them enough after one episode that I wanted to watch more. In the case of Avatar I disliked the main cast enough that I didn't want to watch more episodes (mostly because of Sokka).

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh man, Saph. I don't know if you're doing this on purpose but the irony of your specific complaints are the best thing I've woken up to in a while.

What kept me watching the show, incidentally, was I found both Zuko and Aang's stories intriguing based on the information presented in the pilot. Not necessarily their characaters, but their situations. That gave me enough momentum to watch the next few episodes, which start developing everyone's characters really early and never stop.

I figured if I tried to actually answer your question instead of just providing spoilers you might stop making my sides hurt.

[Nourjan]

To be honest, I don't really care that much about how more or less powerful Aang is. I'd probably be fine with the Avatar thing if I liked Aang, instead of finding him kinda boring. I'll watch most shows if I like the character interactions. Firefly had good characters, B5 had good characters, and in both cases I liked them enough after one episode that I wanted to watch more. In the case of Avatar I disliked the main cast enough that I didn't want to watch more episodes (mostly because of Sokka).

As someone who initially disliked Babylone 5 and Firely on the first few episode and only loves them after following through.I would say that this show is worth it.Everyone single one of your gripe are addressed further down the storyline.

[Saph]

Oh man, Saph. I don't know if you're doing this on purpose but the irony of your specific complaints are the best thing I've woken up to in a while.

Glad I'm providing you some entertainment. :smallbiggrin:

I don't actually think Avatar's a bad show – there are lots of small details I really like and it's got a big enough fanbase that I'm pretty sure the story actually does get good. The problem is that particular Sokka/Katara dynamic (male character is convinced he's better than female ones despite the fact that said female character is obviously stronger and smarter than him) is one I really personally dislike.

[Prime32]

The problem is that particular Sokka/Katara dynamic (male character is convinced he's better than female ones despite the fact that said female character is obviously stronger and smarter than him) is one I really personally dislike.I should point out that Harry Dresden did the same thing. And not only does it take him much longer to get over it than Sokka, it's never given a justification like Sokka's behaviour is.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Glad I'm providing you some entertainment. :smallbiggrin:

I don't actually think Avatar's a bad show – there are lots of small details I really like and it's got a big enough fanbase that I'm pretty sure the story actually does get good. The problem is that particular Sokka/Katara dynamic (male character is convinced he's better than female ones despite the fact that said female character is obviously stronger and smarter than him) is one I really personally dislike.

I can tell you that this, specifically, is the first one of your gripes that's addressed and man is it ever. If you ever give the show another chance, watch through episode 4, since it's all about addressing this particular character defect of Sokka's.

It's also the one where he's demoted from "attempting to be pragmatic guy" to "comic relief" until about season 3, though.

[Nourjan]

I should point out that Harry Dresden did the same thing. And not only does it take him much longer to get over it than Sokka, it's never given a justification like Sokka's behaviour is.

I've never read that series. Sokka dropped the male superiority schtick on by the end of episode 3.How long does Hary Dresden kept his ?

[The Rose Dragon]

I've never read that series. Sokka dropped the male superiority schtick on by the end of episode 3.How long does Hary Dresden kept his ?

Episode 4, actually, which was The Warriors of Kyoshi.

[The Giant]

The whole point of a pilot episode (or pair of episodes) is to sell you on the series. I think it's fair to assume that the writers are leading with the best they've got to offer.

Oh, I totally agree. Like there was this one online comic strip I found where I started reading and all it was was a bunch of really crappy jokes about some roleplaying game rules that stopped being current years ago. All the characters were just flat roleplaying clichés with no depth or nuance and the art was hideous crooked stick figures. I read the first five pages, then I closed the browser window. No thanks. What possible entertainment could I get from something that started that way? Based on those five pages, I could tell that there wasn't even a plot. I mean, people keep telling me that it gets better, but shouldn't the author have put his best work on the first page if he wanted to grab people? Geez.

[Saph]

I should point out that Harry Dresden did the same thing. And it actually took him much longer to get over it than Sokka.

The difference is that Harry really is very powerful, more powerful than just about everyone else. So watching him occasionally take a fall is funny, because on the occasions where he cuts loose he's quite terrifying.


I can tell you that this, specifically, is the first one of your gripes that's addressed and man is it ever.

From reading the episode summary, I'm not sure it is. Is it a case of "Sokka becomes more competent and actually gets up to the level of his teammates" or "Sokka gets defeated in a humiliating fashion yet again"? Because if it's the second, that sounds worse if anything.


Oh, I totally agree. Like there was this one online comic strip I found where I started reading and all it was was a bunch of really crappy jokes about some roleplaying game rules that stopped being current years ago.

I'm not sure which comic strip you're talking about. The only stick figure RPG comic strip that I read was funny from the start. :smalltongue:

[Prime32]

From reading the episode summary, I'm not sure it is. Is it a case of "Sokka becomes more competent and actually gets up to the level of his teammates" or "Sokka gets defeated in a humiliating fashion yet again"? Because if it's the second, that sounds worse if anything.Episode summaries generally explain plot events, not emotions. I doubt there's many DF summaries that mention Harry growing out of his sexism at all, never mind how he feels about all the burdens he comes to carry.

Sokka is never as good in combat as the rest of the team, but they would have died long ago if it wasn't for his quick thinking.

[DonQuixote]

Oh, I totally agree. Like there was this one online comic strip I found where I started reading and all it was was a bunch of really crappy jokes about some roleplaying game rules that stopped being current years ago. All the characters were just flat roleplaying clichés with no depth or nuance and the art was hideous crooked stick figures. I read the first five pages, then I closed the browser window. No thanks. What possible entertainment could I get from something that started that way? Based on those five pages, I could tell that there wasn't even a plot. I mean, people keep telling me that it gets better, but shouldn't the author have put his best work on the first page if he wanted to grab people? Geez.

*Applause*

[Nerd-o-rama]

From reading the episode summary, I'm not sure it is. Is it a case of "Sokka becomes more competent and actually gets up to the level of his teammates" or "Sokka gets defeated in a humiliating fashion yet again"? Because if it's the second, that sounds worse if anything.

First the latter, then the former. Not that he ever QUITE gets to the level of the protag Benders, but he develops in other ways to actually be useful instead of an embarrassing yokel who's never left his tiny village.


Oh, I totally agree. Like there was this one online comic strip I found where I started reading and all it was was a bunch of really crappy jokes about some roleplaying game rules that stopped being current years ago. All the characters were just flat roleplaying clichés with no depth or nuance and the art was hideous crooked stick figures. I read the first five pages, then I closed the browser window. No thanks. What possible entertainment could I get from something that started that way? Based on those five pages, I could tell that there wasn't even a plot. I mean, people keep telling me that it gets better, but shouldn't the author have put his best work on the first page if he wanted to grab people? Geez.

Did you ever know that you're my hero?

[Nourjan]

Episode 4, actually, which was The Warriors of Kyoshi.

I stand corrected. I some sometimes forget the order of some of the episodes.




Oh, I totally agree. Like there was this one online comic strip I found where I started reading and all it was was a bunch of really crappy jokes about some roleplaying game rules that stopped being current years ago. All the characters were just flat roleplaying clichés with no depth or nuance and the art was hideous crooked stick figures. I read the first five pages, then I closed the browser window. No thanks. What possible entertainment could I get from something that started that way? Based on those five pages, I could tell that there wasn't even a plot. I mean, people keep telling me that it gets better, but shouldn't the author have put his best work on the first page if he wanted to grab people? Geez.

Thank You.

[The Giant]

I'm not sure which comic strip you're talking about. The only stick figure RPG comic strip that I read was funny from the start. :smalltongue:

Not to anyone who's never played D&D 3.5, they aren't. The first comic literally doesn't even make basic sense to anyone in that position. It's consistently been a barrier to new readers for the last ten years.

Creators don't lead with their best because often, they aren't capable of making their best yet. They grow as storytellers as they proceed. The main writer of Avatar was a second-string story editor for shows like Family Guy and King of the Hill before he started it. They put something out that wasn't as polished as it could be, and then they course-corrected over time. Further, unlike OOTS, Avatar was laboring under network pressure from Nickelodeon. That pilot needed to be sold to network executives that were accustomed to programming like Fairly Oddparents. Is it any wonder they skewed a little juvenile?

Basically, if you don't want to watch something, you don't have to, but it's highly myopic to think that creators can just lead with their best material. People get better the more they do something. And the best parts of Avatar rely on breaking several of the implicit assumptions of the premise later on, which you can't do in Episode 1. Beyond that, it's a matter of whether you are willing to trust the people who are giving you their recommendations. So, with that being said:

When taken as a whole, Avatar is far and away the best animated television show I have ever watched, and probably one of the best two or three shows of any kind. The ability of the writers to take breathtaking chances with their characters just floors me. It's downright fearless what they do to those kids—there is no status quo that can't be changed dramatically with no warning. The emotional authenticity they can wring out of the combination of visuals and voice acting is also superb. Even just the skill they display choosing moments with which to end an episode is a joy to experience. If you have any pretensions about being a writer of fiction, you should watch it. I learned a great deal. Is it flawless? No. Nothing is. Is it a towering achievement of storytelling that will likely influence a generation of creators? Yes.

Legend of Korra is pretty cool, too, though it utterly fails to display the storytelling chops of its predecessor.

[Aotrs Commander]

Oh, I totally agree. Like there was this one online comic strip I found where I started reading and all it was was a bunch of really crappy jokes about some roleplaying game rules that stopped being current years ago. All the characters were just flat roleplaying clichés with no depth or nuance and the art was hideous crooked stick figures. I read the first five pages, then I closed the browser window. No thanks. What possible entertainment could I get from something that started that way? Based on those five pages, I could tell that there wasn't even a plot. I mean, people keep telling me that it gets better, but shouldn't the author have put his best work on the first page if he wanted to grab people? Geez.

I... had actually considered that as a sort of point (though, like many people, I suspect, I ended on OotS through links that started somewhere in the middle), but decided against it. I'm glad I didn't, though because you said so much better than I would have!

(In both that and preceeding post!)

But when you put it like that, the real meat of the plot didn't really kick in until the end of the first arc did it? I'd not even thought about that. I mean, it was still as entertaining as all get out before then, but that's when it moved - evolved, even? from being just a really funny comic strip and into... Actually I'm not sure what I'd call it, exactly, but it is what I consider to be, in it's medium, the Babylon 5 or Avatar. (No, seriously, I honestly do.)

Also, it's a rare honour to have the Giant posting in a thread I'm in..!

[Dienekes]

Glad I'm providing you some entertainment. :smallbiggrin:

I don't actually think Avatar's a bad show – there are lots of small details I really like and it's got a big enough fanbase that I'm pretty sure the story actually does get good. The problem is that particular Sokka/Katara dynamic (male character is convinced he's better than female ones despite the fact that said female character is obviously stronger and smarter than him) is one I really personally dislike.

Heh, Katara is the stronger one sure. More emotionally stable? Probably, but she has her moments. But trust me, Sokka is smarter. Hell, Sokka's intelligence can border or ridiculous at times. And the anti-feminine thing goes away so fast there I don't really see why it was added. Just another of the early installment weirdness I guess. I mean they explain why it goes away in a fun little story but it seems like a misstep to start with one of the three main characters on such a negative note.

As to why I watched past the first few episodes it was a culmination of things. The important one was that I had to take care of my cousin's kid. I do not like children. I do not know what to do with them. I find them weird. Why it was decided I would look after the noisy thing I will never know. Anyway, as someone with Netflicks and a kid to look after I just let him watch something, he picked Avatar so I sat and watched it with him.

The first two episodes didn't grab me, but the kid seemed to like it and we continued and ultimately I'm glad I did. That show is amazing.

Also the sniper thing. HAHAHAHA, ohh man that's good. One villain actually uses snipers and the other does try the insta-kill method.

[Kato]

When taken as a whole, Avatar is far and away the best animated television show I have ever watched, and probably one of the best two or three shows of any kind.

I'm not sure if the OP is still around but I think this is one of the best arguments to watch the show you can find :smallbiggrin:

[Nourjan]

I'm not sure if the OP is still around but I think this is one of the best arguments to watch the show you can find :smallbiggrin:

I guess we can say:smallcool:.....


We have a Giant approval.

[The Giant]

And the anti-feminine thing goes away so fast there I don't really see why it was added. Just another of the early installment weirdness I guess. I mean they explain why it goes away in a fun little story but it seems like a misstep to start with one of the three main characters on such a negative note.

Oh, I know why it's there. It's there because of the very first scene of the show, when Katara and Sokka are in the boat alone. They need Katara to find Aang with her Waterbending, but they need her to not be very skilled with it or else she'll upstage the Avatar. So they tie it to her emotions—she has more oomph when she's mad. What do they need to do then for the scene to start? Get her mad. What's an easy way to get a 14-year-old girl mad? Have her older brother rag on her with some sexist crap. Done! And if it also provides a nice broad sibling relationship hook that they can sell to the network suits, even better.

It's one of those things that happens when writers introduce an unfortunate element while trying to solve the needs of a particular scene, and then they have to either live with it or find a way to write it out. I've done it dozens of times.

EDIT: I would also add that in a show aimed at children, there is substantial educational value in later explicitly disabusing Sokka of his sexist notions. You'll notice it's practically the very first thing that happens once they're on the road.

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's also an easy and believable character flaw for for a 14/15 year old guy who's the only able-bodied fighter in his tiny village. And everyone should have a character flaw.

[Dienekes]

Oh, I know why it's there. It's there because of the very first scene of the show, when Katara and Sokka are in the boat alone. They need Katara to find Aang with her Waterbending, but they need her to not be very skilled with it or else she'll upstage the Avatar. So they tie it to her emotions—she has more oomph when she's mad. What do they need to do then for the scene to start? Get her mad. What's an easy way to get a 14-year-old girl mad? Have her older brother rag on her with some sexist crap. Done! And if it also provides a nice broad sibling relationship hook that they can sell to the network suits, even better.

It's one of those things that happens when writers introduce an unfortunate element while trying to solve the needs of a particular scene, and then they have to either live with it or find a way to write it out. I've done it dozens of times.

You see, this is why I can safely say I don't have a creative bone in my body. This stuff never would have occurred to me. Though I will say, I have a sister. I could get her angry a thousand different ways when she was 14 that didn't involve being sexist.

In any case, may I just say that once OotS is all over, if you were to ever write a commentary on how you introduced some elements for what purpose and whether you regret doing so, or what you learned during the process, I would buy it in a second.

[Saph]

Not to anyone who's never played D&D 3.5, they aren't. The first comic literally doesn't even make basic sense to anyone in that position. It's consistently been a barrier to new readers for the last ten years.

Creators don't lead with their best because often, they aren't capable of making their best yet. They grow as storytellers as they proceed.

It's a good point, and to be fair, I was in the exact target audience for OotS when I started reading it (someone who played D&D 3.0 and then D&D 3.5). So OotS was an easy sell for me.

That said . . . first impressions matter. It's unfair to a creator to expect them to be perfect from the start, but it's just as unfair to a reader to expect them to slog through boring stuff under the promise that "it gets better".

I'm not just writing this from an audience point of view, BTW – I've had exactly the same complaint sent at me. I write novels for a living, an urban fantasy series, and most of the people who read the first one read the second, but I still occasionally get reviews of the first one saying "didn't like it, won't read the rest". And I suppose I could complain that it's unfair, because the later ones in the series are better than the first – I was experimenting when I wrote Fated, and it took me a couple of books to nail down the formula – but what would be the point? What am I going to do, track them down and argue? That's a spectacularly bad idea on multiple levels. All you can really do is keep on improving and writing better stuff, and trust that it'll work itself out.

Still, you've convinced me to give Avatar another shot, since I like your stories enough to take your word for it. Any recommendations on where it gets genuinely good?

[Nerd-o-rama]

It's kind of a pretty continuous curve of improvement right up through the season 2 finale, wherein it kind of plateaus for season 3, in my opinion. Highlights of the first season include episode 4 ("The Warriors of Kiyoshi"), episode 10 ("Jet"), episode 13 ("The Blue Spirit"), episode 17 ("The Northern Air Temple"), and the two-part season finale. ...you can skip episode 11 of season 1, no one liked it but me.

Season 2, in my humble fanboy opinion, only has good episodes, especially starting with season 2 episode 6 ("The Blind Bandit"), which introduces the best character in the entire show. Not that any of the others are bad, it's just...well, you'll get what I mean when you see her.

(Okay season 2 episode 2 is pretty stupid but I thought it was funny)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Ideally, yeah, you'd want works of fiction to start strong and stay strong and end strong. Pragmatically, not a lot of them do--so I find that fictional series are something I have to "take a chance" on: either because there's elements of the setting/premise that intrigue me, or else because others have recommended them to me.

Then again, I'm willing to put up with a lot of "meh" to see if something gets better. The only time that's been strained was when Attack on Titan took 9 episodes to resolve two or three plot points plus a backstory episode (at least, that's about how I remember it)...but then it got better too. (Er, yes. I have a ludicrous tolerance to keep going, so long as there's something to hook my interest.)

I feel that early Legend of Aang (Season 1) hits a good strong point at Episode 3 or 4, and then keeps improving. (Which, handily, fits into my more general "four episode rule" for any 30-minute series, like anime.)

[Douglas]

One specific point to keep in mind: the Avatar State gets used pretty heavily early on, and this is most definitely not representative of the show in general. In the early episodes it's there in large part to educate the audience about its existence and power so it doesn't come as a surprise (and prompt accusations of deus ex machina) on the truly important occasions later on. Past that early portion, it mostly shows up only for climactic major battles where nothing else is even close to enough, and faces suitably heavy opposition.

Additionally, the question of "why not skip the training and just Avatar State the final boss" is brought up explicitly in show and answered. That question is the subject of season 2 episode 1.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm pretty sure they explain the problems with an untrained Avatar going Avatar State as early as episode 3, but I could be mistaken.

[The Rose Dragon]

I'm pretty sure they explain the problems with an untrained Avatar going Avatar State as early as episode 3, but I could be mistaken.

My favorite line regarding the Avatar State and why it is not used to fix everything is "blah blah spiritual mumbo jumbo blah blah something about space".

[Ramza00]

Still, you've convinced me to give Avatar another shot, since I like your stories enough to take your word for it. Any recommendations on where it gets genuinely good?

Episode 7 and 8 (its a two parter) is when the story introduces its greater plot hooks and my opinion the story starts to get good (moves from decent to good). It is during episode 7 and 8 the characters are introduced to the importance of their quest (similar to the oots order of the scribble) and the story seems to be less episode of the week.

Episodes 3 through 6 are "episodes of the week" some of them introduce npcs that will have no importance later, while other episodes introduce store critical npcs. These episodes are kinda slow. That said on rewatches you will remember these episodes fondly for they introduce you to said npcs.

After Episode 8 (the winter solstice), episode 9, 10, and 11 bring back the episode of the week (aka sidequests) once again some npcs important some are irrelevant. Episode 11 the Great Divide is probably the worst episode of the series and nothing important happens.

Episode 12 (the storm) and Episode 13 (the blue spirit) is probably where I say the story goes from predictable yet good to unique. You are now completely invested with the characters, the show is throwing surprises at you, and two thirds of the remaining episodes (for the entire series not just the season) will move the plot ball forward in ways where the heroes status quo has little to do with what happened the two episodes prior.

[The Giant]

Still, you've convinced me to give Avatar another shot, since I like your stories enough to take your word for it. Any recommendations on where it gets genuinely good?

Season One is essentially a series of vignettes centered around the journey from the South Pole to the North Pole. Some of these are very good on their own, but there's no real turning point where the quality increases permanently. Episode 12, The Storm, is probably the most important in terms of the plot, while the next one, The Blue Spirit, starts to show some of the risk-taking, writing-wise. The finale is a really nice set-piece. I will say that if you still don't like the three main characters by the end of this season, you probably won't like them going forward, even though they all still have a good deal of development left before the end.

Season Two starts out about the same as Season One—some good episodes, but many are of the "problem of the week" variety. Things start changing around Episode 6, The Blind Bandit, and everything from Episode 7 on is daredevil without-a-net writing that's only made more impressive when you remember that this was a show aimed at children.

Season Three's only problem is that there weren't five more episodes. Some of the choices they made about what to focus an episode on are a little off, and there's a very disposable villain who could have been more interesting. Both of which wouldn't have been a problem with more breathing room. Still, every episode is good unto itself, and it has an incredibly satisfying climax to the entire series. Everybody's story ends exactly the way it should based on their decisions, which is hard to pull off.

I would also add that there are some very strong positions the show takes on right and wrong which are downright refreshing in this current media climate. Without getting too much into it (both for spoilers and due to the board's guidelines), it has several messages that put it directly into philosophical opposition with certain other works—the recent Man of Steel movie, for example.

[Saph]

I would also add that there are some very strong positions the show takes on right and wrong which are downright refreshing in this current media climate. Without getting too much into it (both for spoilers and due to the board's guidelines), it has several messages that put it directly into philosophical opposition with certain other works—the recent Man of Steel movie, for example.

Now I'm really curious to know what you're referring to. Oh well, board rules are board rules. :smalltongue:

[Spoomeister]

Creators don't lead with their best because often, they aren't capable of making their best yet. They grow as storytellers as they proceed.

Or as with a favorite show of ours, B5, they're uncertain whether the story they really want to tell will ever make it past that pilot. So what's presented needs to do double duty as a standalone story, as well as an introduction to something that could be fleshed out in a season, or two, or five.

JMS has already expounded on this kind of thing at length online, and The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5 is to me what TVTropes is for some others, so I'm going to try not to link to it, lest I be sucked into that site all morning...

[SmartAlec]

Avatar: the Last Airbender is this generation's Mysterious Cities of Gold.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I recommend starting about halfway through season one at the earliest. You won't be missing anything not explained in the 20-second intro.

[LadyEowyn]

I would also add that there are some very strong positions the show takes on right and wrong which are downright refreshing in this current media climate. Without getting too much into it (both for spoilers and due to the board's guidelines), it has several messages that put it directly into philosophical opposition with certain other works—the recent Man of Steel movie, for example.

*applauds* Could not agree more. Current media seems to have overdosed on cynicism.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Episode 11 the Great Divide is probably the worst episode of the series and nothing important happens.

There is no episode 11 of season 1. Even the authors ret-conned it out of existence by season 3 (during the hilarious self-pastiche that was "The Ember Island Players").

Seriously, OP, if you are still wondering, I'll add my voice to the chorus: start with A:tLA, you won't regret it. Unlike other here, I like the first season, and I like pretty much everyone, I absolutely adore season two.

Grey Wolf

[Shale]

"The Blind Bandit" might be my favorite episode of television - it's certainly my favorite episode of animated television. Great character development, the introduction of a main character, fantastic fight scenes, humor and plot movement, all wrapped up in a razor-sharp spoof of pro wrestling (of all things!). It's genius, and it's not even that much better than the rest of the show. The overall level of quality is just sky-high.

[Grey Watcher]

Oh, I know why it's there. It's there because of the very first scene of the show, when Katara and Sokka are in the boat alone. They need Katara to find Aang with her Waterbending, but they need her to not be very skilled with it or else she'll upstage the Avatar. So they tie it to her emotions—she has more oomph when she's mad. What do they need to do then for the scene to start? Get her mad. What's an easy way to get a 14-year-old girl mad? Have her older brother rag on her with some sexist crap. Done! And if it also provides a nice broad sibling relationship hook that they can sell to the network suits, even better.

It's one of those things that happens when writers introduce an unfortunate element while trying to solve the needs of a particular scene, and then they have to either live with it or find a way to write it out. I've done it dozens of times.

EDIT: I would also add that in a show aimed at children, there is substantial educational value in later explicitly disabusing Sokka of his sexist notions. You'll notice it's practically the very first thing that happens once they're on the road.

Hmmm... I'd never thought about that scene in terms of the plot functions it has to accomplish. It, more than anything from the early episodes, is what makes me cringe because it feels... forced. Even the rest of the pilot feels a lot more natural, including the occasional goofy slapstick that so many network execs seem to think is mandatory in children's programming.

I'm gonna join the chorus of people saying that The Last Airbender is a quality series and is definitely worth a shot.

As for Korra, the first season was a good start. Not as good as the first season of Last Airbender, and I think the moving goalposts* show in the pacing of some of the plotlines. (I think dropping the love triangle altogether would've been a substantial improvement.)

As I understand it, while they were writing Korra it went from an ~8 episode mini-series, to a ~15, to the first season of a longer series, which has got to wreak havoc with pacing if these changes are happening as you're writing.

But yes, I think Airbender is the best introduction to the franchise, and, once you've decided if you like that or not, whether or not to move onto Korra should be a pretty obvious choice. :smallsmile:

[Boros Reckoner]

It gets good starting at episodes 3 - 5
Episode 3: Fire duel

Episode 5: Bumi

[Boros Reckoner]

the anti-feminine thing goes away so fast there I don't really see why it was added.

There's actually some very interesting worldbuilding that came out of Sokka's sexism

The Water Tribes have very traditional gender roles, are extremely tradition-minded and conservative in that respect, they have their notions of what men are and do and what women are and do

Katara was raised as a woman, she knows how to cook, patch clothes, tend to the ill, and help with childbirth

Sokka was raised as a man, he knows how to fight, hunt, and strategize

These are results of the culture they were raised in their whole lives. Neither of them had ever been beyond the south pole when the series starts.


Other nations aren't like this. The Fire Nation is actually the most progressive of all, not just technologically but also culturally, giving no real distinction to someone's sex in their status in society or what they do with their lives. There's women in the army just like there's men, it's their potential and abilities that matter, individual by individual.

When Sokka is yanked out of the south pole and starts traveling the world, he finds out how backwards his views really were, this happens early on during the trip to Kiyoshi Island in episode 4.

He finds out that Women can be warriors, and defying expectations, he actually learns and accepts that quite humbly. This is why his sexism "goes away" really early in the series

Of course, in the end all these warrior girls get their asses kicked by Zuko and they need Aang to save them but that's neither here nor there

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think dropping the love triangle altogether would've been a substantial improvement.

My SO is hoping for a "marry the hypotenuse" situation in which Korra starts going out with Asami. I'd love for that to happen - we need more same-sex couples in children's programming - except I don't for a moment believe Nikolodean would ever allow it.

Edit:

Of course, in the end all these warrior girls get their asses kicked by Zuko and they need Aang to save them but that's neither here nor there

Actually, and this is very important, the Kyoshi warriors get their asses kicked by Azula, another female warrior.

Edit2: it occurs to me you meant "at the end of episode 3, Zuko...". Which is fair enough, but that was more sheer numbers, rather than anything Zuko did that was better.

GW

[Nerd-o-rama]

Edit2: it occurs to me you meant "at the end of episode 3, Zuko...". Which is fair enough, but that was more sheer numbers, rather than anything Zuko did that was better.

GW

Yeah the Kiyoshi Warriors don't lose to Zuko and need to be rescued by Aang - they start losing to Zuko's entire flotilla and need Aang to fire Chekhov's Gun for them.

[Boros Reckoner]

that was more sheer numbers, rather than anything Zuko did that was better.GW

At one point in the episode, 3 K-warriors are surrounding Zuko, while he's lying prone, and from that position he beats them alone, 1v3

Zuko was always a top-tier martial artist in the avatar universe. Firebender not so much, but as a fighter he severely outclassed any of them, just as Aang outclassed Zuko

[Grey Watcher]

My SO is hoping for a "marry the hypotenuse" situation in which Korra starts going out with Asami. I'd love for that to happen - we need more same-sex couples in children's programming - except I don't for a moment believe Nikolodean would ever allow it.

My desire for inclusiveness is at odds with my sense that having a character suddenly become a different sexual orientation is... less than stellar writing. :smalltongue:


Edit:


Actually, and this is very important, the Kyoshi warriors get their asses kicked by Azula, another female warrior.

Edit2: it occurs to me you meant "at the end of episode 3, Zuko...". Which is fair enough, but that was more sheer numbers, rather than anything Zuko did that was better.

GW

Plus, Zuko had artillery in the form of firebending, and the element of surprise, so I'd say they do pretty well for a fight that's heavily stacked against them.

[Boros Reckoner]

Also because there seems to be confusion with this:

The first episode(s) of the series are not the pilot

There was a pilot, unaired, and very different, that was used to sell the concept to nick. You can find it on youtube if you search for "Avatar Pilot" or something along those lines.

Zuko's armor has weird shoulder spikes, and he has a bird that was going to be Momo's "nemesis", and Katara is named Kya

[Cizak]

I love the way the dealt with the sexism thing. One; they get it out of the way as soon as they can. The pilot was a two parter, then we need Aang to see what happened to his people, then it's dealt with. Two; it's not that society doesn't accept girls as warriors, it's that one guy is a douche. And he learns his lesson half way through the episode, we don't need to dwell on it for 20 minutes when we can fix it in 10. Three; Once this is out of the way and Sokka has learned his lesson, it's never a problem again. There are a lot of girls/women in this show, and they all kick just as much butt as the male characters, without it ever* being brought up as weird or out of the norm.

* Yeah, it is brought up in "The Waterbending Master", but even then it's not that "you can't possible fight well or be strong, you're a girl!", it's more like "Yeah women can fight, sure, but it's tradition here that they don't". Pakku even acknowledges that Katarra is "and excellent waterbender", but he won't teach her because of tradition.

[Geordnet]

Yes,Every single one of those things happened.
Moreover, each one had an entire episode dedicated to it.


I would highly reccomend watching the original series before its successor. Not that the Legend of Korra doesn't stand up on its own, but it was really aimed at the preexisting fanbase.

Especially since it's a great deal less deep than tLA, such that the best way to enjoy it (IMO) is to just sit and take in the setting. Nostalgia enhances the "awe factor" a lot.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I recommend starting about halfway through season one at the earliest. You won't be missing anything not explained in the 20-second intro.

But... then you miss Bumi! Also, Zhao is introduced in Episode 3.

Not sure if there's anything important in Episode 2, and you can definitely skip The Great Divide.

We should probably make a list of all the Season 3 filler that should be skipped, too.

[MLai]

We're talking about a teenage guy (14 at most) in an isolated Inuit-like tribe, and a few ppl here take some sort of literary offense at him being sexist towards his little sister as a way of ribbing her?

Geez Louise, gimme a break. :smallconfused:
This is taking that particular social crusade a bit too far, I think.

Also note that his father was a warrior, and all the men in the village are gone and he's the only "man" left. There's context to the way he was acting. But nevermind that, even. 14 years old, nothing else need be said.

Anyways, the ATLA character and episode that sold the series for me was Katara in eps 6, Imprisoned. She gave me chills in that eps, because she somehow reminded me of Princess Nausicaa's idealism and strength. At that point she was my favorite character, until later as she develops more, her faults and flaws are made clearer to the viewer.

I think it says something for the show's depth of character development, when a character arc can make you start out thinking she's the best most perfect Mary Sue character in the show, and then later think "Wow she's got faults that grates on me a little, that I didn't notice before" and it's all completely intentional and consistent on the part of the writers. Nobody in this show is perfect.

[The Rose Dragon]

We're talking about a teenage guy (14 at most) in an isolated Inuit-like tribe, and a few ppl here take some sort of literary offense at him being sexist towards his little sister as a way of ribbing her?

I think Sokka is canonically 15 during Avatar, actually.

[Prime32]

But... then you miss Bumi! Also, Zhao is introduced in Episode 3.

Not sure if there's anything important in Episode 2, and you can definitely skip The Great Divide.

We should probably make a list of all the Season 3 filler that should be skipped, too.Over and over in Doug Walker's vlogs:
"Wasn't this kind of filler?"
"Okay, okay it wasn't filler. You'd think I'd have learned by now."

[Hiro Protagonest]

Over and over in Doug Walker's vlogs:
"Wasn't this kind of filler?"
"Okay, okay it wasn't filler. You'd think I'd have learned by now."

Well, really, I was one of those guys who didn't "get" The Ember Island Players. I didn't "get" sitting through nineteen minutes of drudge just because it's a parody and there's a joke at the end. I'd rather just skip to the joke at the end.

If it had been made after the movie, it would've been an absolutely brilliant "f you" to M Night Shamland.

[Shale]

But what about all the jokes in the beginning and middle?

[Morty]

At one point in the episode, 3 K-warriors are surrounding Zuko, while he's lying prone, and from that position he beats them alone, 1v3

Zuko was always a top-tier martial artist in the avatar universe. Firebender not so much, but as a fighter he severely outclassed any of them, just as Aang outclassed Zuko

I think that the characters' relative competence varies between episodes, depending on the situation, the tone and intent of the scene. Trying to put them into some sort of ranking of competence and power doesn't always work.

Other than that, I don't really have anything to say about Avatar: the Last Airbender that hasn't been already said by various people, a lot more eloquently than I could manage. I, too, started out sceptical about the show, but thoroughly enjoyed it when I actually watched it. I loathed Legend of Korra, but plenty of people like it, so you should give it a shot.

[Nourjan]

There's actually some very interesting worldbuilding that came out of Sokka's sexism

The Water Tribes have very traditional gender roles, are extremely tradition-minded and conservative in that respect, they have their notions of what men are and do and what women are and do

Katara was raised as a woman, she knows how to cook, patch clothes, tend to the ill, and help with childbirth

Sokka was raised as a man, he knows how to fight, hunt, and strategize

These are results of the culture they were raised in their whole lives. Neither of them had ever been beyond the south pole when the series starts.




Not true at all.

Sokka and Katara are part of the Southern Water tribe and they are not sexist at all(it's the Northern Water Tribe that seems to have this culture).We've seen female waterbenders from the Southern Tribe fighting in the front lines during the flash backs.Unlike their Northern Brethren ,they have no problems with female warriors.His issue have more to do the responsibilities lumped upon him(and trying to piss his little sister).

The Avatarverse is very progressive in the equality department .I don't believe we seen any sexism in any of the four elemental oriented cultures.The only place that have gender defined role was the Southern Water Tribe(which Sokka and Katara isn't part of).

[Mercenary Pen]

The Avatarverse is very progressive in the equality department .I don't believe we seen any sexism in any of the four elemental oriented cultures.The only place that have gender defined role was the Southern Water Tribe(which Sokka and Katara isn't part of).

You mean the Northern water tribe in that last sentence.

[Nourjan]

You mean the Northern water tribe in that last sentence.

Yeah , silly me. :smallbiggrin:

[Prince Raven]

Expecting 3 Kyoshi warriors to take out Zuko is like expecting 3 MMA fighters to beat Batman, in an alternate universe in which Batman can shoot fire out of his hands.

[John Cribati]

Expecting 3 Kyoshi warriors to take out Zuko is like expecting 3 MMA fighters to beat Batman, in an alternate universe in which Batman can shoot fire out of his hands.

Yeah, honestly the main reason the Kyoshi Warriors lost that one was because the Fire Nation had Triceratops Rhinoceroses and… fire.

[Grey Watcher]

Also because there seems to be confusion with this:

The first episode(s) of the series are not the pilot

There was a pilot, unaired, and very different, that was used to sell the concept to nick. You can find it on youtube if you search for "Avatar Pilot" or something along those lines.

Zuko's armor has weird shoulder spikes, and he has a bird that was going to be Momo's "nemesis", and Katara is named Kya

I had thought that the practice of producing pilots before you'd decided on a product that was more or less ready to air (such as the original Star Trek pilot "The Cage") was abandoned decades ago. Shows what I know. :smalltongue:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Basically, in ATLA, the only time you have non-Benders regularly beating Benders is when they're working as part of a team that includes Benders (or in one case, having a specific fighting style to counter Bending and the element of surprise). Also, whatever Combustion Man's deal was.

This changes in Korra thanks to the advent of technology that's on par with (or arguably superior to) combat Bending, but it's a case of "wizards are probably going to win most fights because they're effing wizards" in the original series.

[LadyEowyn]

I never understood how it was plausible that Mai could go toe-to-toe with benders and even post a threat. Water: create ice and freeze her throwing stars in place; earth: create a wall that blocks them; air: blow them away. Ty Lee's rather more plausible because of her talent combined with her remarkable agility.

Come to think of it, firebending is really the least useful type in direct combat (VERY useful for technology, though). It just lets you fire blasts, which a sufficiently agile person (bender or not) can dodge; water and air are more mobile and thus harder to dodge, and an earth bender can hit you just by making the land you're running across pop up and smack you into the sky.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The Fire Nation makes good use of combined arms and supplementing their Benders with tech, in addition to outnumbering everyone else except the Earth Kingdom (in terms of Benders and non-Bending soldiers, they seem to be almost equal). Plus, the three most prominent Firebenders we see in the show (the royal family) are all stupidly good martial artists and in Azula and Ozai's cases, insanely powerful from a pure energy-output perspective too.

Mai never really did do much in a fight herself, though (sharing Sokka's problem of "oh man weapons actually kill people", in addition to the Bending/mundane weapons utility difference). She was mainly there as a distraction so Ty Lee could get close or Azula could isolate someone. Ozai's Angels were dangerous because of teamwork, just like the main characters.

[John Cribati]

Honestly, that's why ‘fire comes out of nowhere’ was necessary (even if it made sense because it was taught to humans by dragons) for balance’s sake; barring a solar eclipse/being underwater a firebender will always be able to call up fire, while there are places you can put an earth or waterbender where they become useless.

[Grey Watcher]

... Also, whatever Combustion Man's deal was. ...

I seem to remember it being stated (possibly Word of Godded) that he's a self-taught firebender with a unique technique, which is why he can really only do one thing with his bending. One thing which he does extremely well.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I seem to remember it being stated (possibly Word of Godded) that he's a self-taught firebender with a unique technique, which is why he can really only do one thing with his bending. One thing which he does extremely well.

In a world where kung fu can let you leap into the sky, heal third-degree burns in an instant, or build a house, one man had the courage and vision to turn himself into a human grenade launcher.

[John Cribati]

I seem to remember it being stated (possibly Word of Godded) that he's a self-taught firebender with a unique technique, which is why he can really only do one thing with his bending. One thing which he does extremely well.

That seems… kind of weird actually. Even if he had nobody to teach him formally, he would still look at how other people did it. Why would he go “okay, so people usually shoot fire from their hands and feet… imma try to shoot it from my brain.”

[Grey Watcher]

Honestly, that's why ‘fire comes out of nowhere’ was necessary (even if it made sense because it was taught to humans by dragons) for balance’s sake; barring a solar eclipse/being underwater a firebender will always be able to call up fire, while there are places you can put an earth or waterbender where they become useless.

Well, to be fair, in a world where, outside of the Fire Nation, metal-working is not mass-produceable, it's next to impossible to get an Earthbender somewhere where there's no earth. I mean, a prison on an oil rig artificial island is a LOT of effort to go through to keep the Earthbenders in check. And both Katara and Hama have a knack for thinking outside the box when it comes to finding water sources. (I wonder if a waterbender with the right skillset could harvest water from the cacti and filter out the hallucinogens in the process?)

Anyway, if it helps, my personal headcanon is that chi-generated fire was not a terribly common technique in Avatar Roku's lifetime, but the mobilization of the Fire Nation into a war engine included disseminating the technique as broadly as possible among military personnel, and thus it became common. After all, Lightningbending and Metalbending are presented as rare and wondrous in the original series, but by the sequel series, they've become fairly mundane with lightningbending power plants and metalbending police officers.

[LadyEowyn]

In a world where kung fu can let you leap into the sky, heal third-degree burns in an instant, or build a house, one man had the courage and vision to turn himself into a human grenade launcher.
I am in love with this comment.

[Sunken Valley]

It's one of those things that happens when writers introduce an unfortunate element while trying to solve the needs of a particular scene, and then they have to either live with it or find a way to write it out. I've done it dozens of times.

*Cough*Celia*Cough*

Surprised The Giant watches Nickelodeon stuff, but not that he likes it.

I am not surprised that he hates Man of Steel. The reason why it contradicts Aang (in UK, this show is called Legend of Aang) though isn't a violation of board rules at all. Aang, even when dark things happen, always has that sense of fun and optimism. People are always cracking joke and the heroes know how to have fun and a good time. Man of Steel is a depressing slog fest. Superman is supposed to be about hope and how Superman helps people because he enjoys doing the right thing. His parents taught him to do the right thing and he did. Instead, Jonathan Kent is apparently an antagonist because Clark has to not do what he says in order to succeed. The film has tons of angst and is a real slog when a superman film should have fun and joy. There's no break from destruction, no banter, no jokes, none of that. In fact, tonally Man of Steel is like that rubbish Last Airbender Shyamalan film. All agnsting and no fun.


Another good thing about Legend of Aang which nobody has mentioned yet is the lack of filler. Every episode relates to both another and the main plot at the same time. Only three episodes can be missed entirely (Great Divide, Painted Lady, Avatar and Firelord).

[John Cribati]

Only three episodes can be missed entirely (Great Divide, Painted Lady, Avatar and Firelord.

You mean the one that details important setting backstory, drops the biggest twist, and is basically the most important episode of Zuko’s arc? :smallconfused:

[Sunken Valley]

You mean the one that details important setting backstory, drops the biggest twist, and is basically the most important episode of Zuko’s arc? :smallconfused:

For anyone who hasn't seen it I'm putting the spoilers.

The important setting backstory isn't important to the plot and is never mentioned again. Whilst it brings the moral of "not all fire nation people are evil" we don't need that moral after the headband and Sokka's master, which already covered that ground.

The biggest twist regarding Zuko's grandfather is never brought up outside of that episode in the show proper. Even worse as it gives Zuko a headband/crown what ever which he is never seen wearing.

Regarding Zuko's arc: The Storm. Blue Spirit. Zuko Alone. Crossroads of Destiny. Nightmares and Daydreams. Day of Black Sun part 2. All far more important to the Zuko arc than this. The reason Zuko converted to the side of good for good is because he did not agree with his father's plan to immolate the earth kingdom, which he heard at the big meeting. This is nothing to do with Avatar and the Firelord.

Also, I think they made a misfire by having Iroh speak to Zuko too early. It would have given the scene in the "old masters" even more impact if they had not spoken to each other in S3 beforehand.

[Grey Watcher]

Glad I'm providing you some entertainment. :smallbiggrin:

I don't actually think Avatar's a bad show – there are lots of small details I really like and it's got a big enough fanbase that I'm pretty sure the story actually does get good. The problem is that particular Sokka/Katara dynamic (male character is convinced he's better than female ones despite the fact that said female character is obviously stronger and smarter than him) is one I really personally dislike.

Well, you'd be happy to learn that this particular issue is one that gets dealt with quite promptly. Like episode 3 (if you count the hour-long pilot as a single episode). And even in episode 2 he's much better behaved (on this particular issue at any rate).

Honestly, part of me wants to join the chorus of people saying "C'mon, give it a chance, we know you'll like it!" Another part of me says that maybe it's just not for you. Yes, the main cast all get significant character development. Aang sobers up (and his initial super-bouncy-fun-time wackiness gets some... context), Sokka finds his dignity and contributes something other than "getting humiliated for cheap laughs", and Katara steps up into a more grown-up version of herself. But it happens slowly. With very few exceptions, I can't point and say that this episode is when Sokka stops being an arrogant brat or that one is when Aang outgrows his goofiness. And if you found the characters that repugnant at the outset, maybe it really isn't worth the time to sit and wait for them to finally grow into a state you find acceptable. (I just realized that could read as incredibly passive-aggressively sarcastic. It's not. I'm sincerely stating that. I took the same attitude towards Firefly, despite everyone assuring me it gets totally awesome, I didn't find enough of interest in the first episode to spend the time waiting for the awesome parts.)

On the other hand, you did mention finding Zuko interesting, and... let's just say the series explores that character a LOT.

EDIT: Aaaaand, because I don't read threads in order, I didn't realize that Burlew himself already convinced you to take another shot at the series. Well, don't I feel silly now. :smalltongue:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Well, to be fair, in a world where, outside of the Fire Nation, metal-working is not mass-produceable, it's next to impossible to get an Earthbender somewhere where there's no earth. I mean, a prison on an oil rig artificial island is a LOT of effort to go through to keep the Earthbenders in check. And both Katara and Hama have a knack for thinking outside the box when it comes to finding water sources. (I wonder if a waterbender with the right skillset could harvest water from the cacti and filter out the hallucinogens in the process?)

Anyway, if it helps, my personal headcanon is that chi-generated fire was not a terribly common technique in Avatar Roku's lifetime, but the mobilization of the Fire Nation into a war engine included disseminating the technique as broadly as possible among military personnel, and thus it became common. After all, Lightningbending and Metalbending are presented as rare and wondrous in the original series, but by the sequel series, they've become fairly mundane with lightningbending power plants and metalbending police officers.
I feel like it's been confirmed that Toph, post-series, basically traveled all around training earthbenders in metalbending. I don't know if that's Word of God or a plausible headcanon, though.

Also, Zuko and Ned Stark should have a Road Trip of Honor.

[Cizak]

The important setting backstory isn't important to the plot and is never mentioned again.

Um... it is the plot. It explains how and why the war (you know, that event the entire series is about) started and how and why Roku dissapeared (something we've been hearing about since episode 1). That's like saying that telling us how the ring got created in LotR is filler.

It's also, in my opinion, one of the best episodes in the series.

[Grey Watcher]

Um... it is the plot. It explains how and why the war (you know, that event the entire series is about) started and how and why Roku dissapeared (something we've been hearing about since episode 1). That's like saying that telling us how the ring got created in LotR is filler.

It's also, in my opinion, one of the best episodes in the series.

I think Sunken Valley's point is that you can skip the episode without missing any plot points or character introductions that directly affect the events of the series. Yes, it does provide very important context and answers a lot of key backstory questions, but, strictly speaking, you can cut it out and the plot still hangs together. Unlike, for example, "The King of Omashu" or "Jet", where the episodes seems self-contained and removable, but they introduce characters that become much more important later on, so skipping them can lead to confusion when those characters do come back.

That said, from just about any other perspective beyond a strict "is this absolutely necessary for the plot to progress as it does" analysis, I agree with you: you're really missing out on a LOT if you skip "The Avatar and the Firelord". Of course, if you're that far into the series, you're either enjoying or are under some really strong obligation to watch the whole thing, so I doubt you're skipping it. :smalltongue:

[Kato]

While I don't mind The Avatar and the Firelord I would have to agree that a) you can leave it out without really losing anything and b) it does have something that bugs me.

Spoilered just in case.


I don't like the idea of Zuko being motivated to join sides, if only to a small extent by what his ancestor(s) did. Yeah, it clearly isn't the sole reason but the fact that it is his destiny to fix the error of his ancestor instead of merely because it is the right thing to do somewhat annoys me. I'm not saying they should scrub the episode but... yeah.

[Sunken Valley]

Um... it is the plot. It explains how and why the war (you know, that event the entire series is about) started and how and why Roku dissapeared (something we've been hearing about since episode 1). That's like saying that telling us how the ring got created in LotR is filler.

It's also, in my opinion, one of the best episodes in the series.

I don't think the LOTR movies told us how the ring got created. If they saw the need to cut it out of Tolkien's book for films, it's filler.

Avatar and Firelord is not a good episode, largely because it builds itself on the supposed friendship between Roku and Sozin and then doesn't show it properly. Take the big scene where Sozin pitches his plan to Roku and Roku blowes him off. Nothing there indicates they are great friends. Roku just blows Sozin off without explaining why his plan is bad and giving emotionless platitudes like "the four nations are just that". Roku says that this was his first big test as Avatar but Roku just said no, there was no temptation or hesitation. Just a no. That's why it's a poor episode. Good thing we have a lot of better ones.

@Grey Watcher: Maybe so, but in a show where 58 out of 61 episodes are intricately linked together in a web and not one can be removed without messing up another episode and making it confusing, The Avatar and The Firelord is a real standout.

[Prince Raven]

I don't think the LOTR movies told us how the ring got created. If they saw the need to cut it out of Tolkien's book for films, it's filler.

It's in the first 5 minutes of Fellowship.

[John Cribati]

Avatar and Firelord is not a good episode, largely because it builds itself on the supposed friendship between Roku and Sozin and then doesn't show it properly. Take the big scene where Sozin pitches his plan to Roku and Roku blowes him off. Nothing there indicates they are great friends. Roku just blows Sozin off without explaining why his plan is bad and giving emotionless platitudes like "the four nations are just that". Roku says that this was his first big test as Avatar but Roku just said no, there was no temptation or hesitation. Just a no. That's why it's a poor episode. Good thing we have a lot of better ones.

The "test" Roku was talking about was on his ability to be objective and tell his childhood friend that he is wrong, and not support him because of that. Which means... he passed.

[Grey Watcher]

I don't think the LOTR movies told us how the ring got created. If they saw the need to cut it out of Tolkien's book for films, it's filler.

Avatar and Firelord is not a good episode, largely because it builds itself on the supposed friendship between Roku and Sozin and then doesn't show it properly. Take the big scene where Sozin pitches his plan to Roku and Roku blowes him off. Nothing there indicates they are great friends. Roku just blows Sozin off without explaining why his plan is bad and giving emotionless platitudes like "the four nations are just that". Roku says that this was his first big test as Avatar but Roku just said no, there was no temptation or hesitation. Just a no. That's why it's a poor episode. Good thing we have a lot of better ones.

@Grey Watcher: Maybe so, but in a show where 58 out of 61 episodes are intricately linked together in a web and not one can be removed without messing up another episode and making it confusing, The Avatar and The Firelord is a real standout.

First off, I'm a little rusty, but beyond "forged in the fires of Mount Doom", I don't think LOTR actually tells you much about the creation of the Ring, so I think even Tolkein would agree that detailing Sauron's forging of the ring was getting a bit too far from what was relevant. And, while I like both the books and the films, to me they feel like very different works, despite sharing the same plot outline, so I don't buy the argument that "if it was left out of the movie, it can't have been important". But to each his own. :smallbiggrin:

But back on to something resembling the original topic. :smallredface:

Spoilered due to reasons:

As I read it, Roku's point wasn't that he was tempted by Sozin's plan, it was that, as he said in the finale, he wasn't decisive enough. In retrospect, he feels like he should've done more to dissuade Sozin, such as a long talk about why this was a terrible idea, but instead he, as you say, blew it off with a "no, end of discussion". (Also, who wants to talk freakin' foreign policy on their wedding day?) In that context, again, when he roughed Sozin up over the first Fire Nation colony, he dealt with it on the surface (intimidating Sozin into backing off), but didn't dig deeper and actually convince Sozin that this was fundamentally a bad idea. I dunno, maybe I'm straying too much into headcanon territory here, but that's how I read it.

That said, some of the discussion here, does have me re-examining that episode. It does appeal heavily to my nerdy lust for world-building, but having Iroh talk to Zuko early does undercut their reconciliation scene in the finale and the whole "you were born to resolve the Sozin-Roku feud" thing is likewise problematic, although you could interpret that as just prying Zuko out of his filial piety rut by showing him that, strictly speaking, he owes filial piety to both sides of the conflict.

[Knaight]

I don't think the LOTR movies told us how the ring got created. If they saw the need to cut it out of Tolkien's book for films, it's filler.
Peter Jackson not seeing fit to include an element of Tolkien's work does not make it filler.

[Cizak]

Avatar and Firelord is not a good episode, largely because it builds itself on the supposed friendship between Roku and Sozin and then doesn't show it properly. Take the big scene where Sozin pitches his plan to Roku and Roku blowes him off. Nothing there indicates they are great friends. Roku just blows Sozin off without explaining why his plan is bad and giving emotionless platitudes like "the four nations are just that". Roku says that this was his first big test as Avatar but Roku just said no, there was no temptation or hesitation. Just a no. That's why it's a poor episode. Good thing we have a lot of better ones.

Right, and that was Roku's flaw. He didn't want to go into deeper detail than that. He didn't want to argue with his best friend and risk their friendship (which I think is displayed just fine) any further than he was already doing by turning Sozin down, and he felt that the best way an avatar would handle this was to be abrupt, decisive and unemotional. He was, however, wrong. It was a stupid way to handle such a situation, and it came back to bite him. Being the avatar does not grant you any special kind of social skills or intelligence.* You're still a person, and persons can do very bad decisions.

And as others have pointed out, the "test" wasn't one of temptation, it was if he could say no. Which he did, but in a not smart enough way.

It's all opinions of course and that's fine, but I can't agree on this episode being bad or more "skipable" than any other. True, the story floats on without it. But it still answers question being asked since episode 1, and at least I wanted those to be answered.

*As further shown in Legend of Korra, but that's another discussion.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Not to anyone who's never played D&D 3.5, they aren't. The first comic literally doesn't even make basic sense to anyone in that position. It's consistently been a barrier to new readers for the last ten years.

Creators don't lead with their best because often, they aren't capable of making their best yet. They grow as storytellers as they proceed. The main writer of Avatar was a second-string story editor for shows like Family Guy and King of the Hill before he started it. They put something out that wasn't as polished as it could be, and then they course-corrected over time. Further, unlike OOTS, Avatar was laboring under network pressure from Nickelodeon. That pilot needed to be sold to network executives that were accustomed to programming like Fairly Oddparents. Is it any wonder they skewed a little juvenile?

Basically, if you don't want to watch something, you don't have to, but it's highly myopic to think that creators can just lead with their best material. People get better the more they do something. And the best parts of Avatar rely on breaking several of the implicit assumptions of the premise later on, which you can't do in Episode 1. Beyond that, it's a matter of whether you are willing to trust the people who are giving you their recommendations. So, with that being said:

When taken as a whole, Avatar is far and away the best animated television show I have ever watched, and probably one of the best two or three shows of any kind. The ability of the writers to take breathtaking chances with their characters just floors me. It's downright fearless what they do to those kids—there is no status quo that can't be changed dramatically with no warning. The emotional authenticity they can wring out of the combination of visuals and voice acting is also superb. Even just the skill they display choosing moments with which to end an episode is a joy to experience. If you have any pretensions about being a writer of fiction, you should watch it. I learned a great deal. Is it flawless? No. Nothing is. Is it a towering achievement of storytelling that will likely influence a generation of creators? Yes.

Legend of Korra is pretty cool, too, though it utterly fails to display the storytelling chops of its predecessor.

Yeah, but also your first big ton of readers was thank to the D&D specific jokes... You can't change it now, you should just accept. What gave you the big pile of readers at first it's the very same that is impeding you to have another big pile. It's ok. Even.

[strijder20]

Not to anyone who's never played D&D 3.5, they aren't. The first comic literally doesn't even make basic sense to anyone in that position. It's consistently been a barrier to new readers for the last ten years.


I might be misinterpreting this, but I had no D&D knowledge prior to reading this comic, had no trouble reading it and learned a LOT about D&D by reading this. Even the first comic was funny.

[Prince Raven]

First off, I'm a little rusty, but beyond "forged in the fires of Mount Doom", I don't think LOTR actually tells you much about the creation of the Ring...

While not much detail is given to the creation of the ring, there's a lot about it's "origin" as in how it was created by Sauron, ended up with Isildur, then found it's way to Gollum to eventually get found by Bilbo. Later on they go into even more detail about how Gollum ended up with the ring and what it did to him.


But it still answers question being asked since episode 1, and at least I wanted those to be answered.

Same here, I was like "So tell me more about how the war started" and Avatar was like "so we're going to tell you more about how the war started".

[MLai]

I'm surprised that The Ember Island Players wasn't mentioned as an eps to skip. I mean, if you're watching the show purely to write a paper, and not for enjoyment, or something.

[John Cribati]

I'm surprised that The Ember Island Players wasn't mentioned as an eps to skip. I mean, if you're watching the show purely to write a paper, and not for enjoyment, or something.

Because the play turned out to be a work of propaganda, and it's kind of foreshadowing future problems the Fire Nation may have with Zuko and Aang. Also development in Aang/Katra's relationship.

[Sunken Valley]

I'm surprised that The Ember Island Players wasn't mentioned as an eps to skip. I mean, if you're watching the show purely to write a paper, and not for enjoyment, or something.

What Herpestidae said plus it establishes that Zuko still feels guilty about what he did to his uncle.

[Dienekes]

What Herpestidae said plus it establishes that Zuko still feels guilty about what he did to his uncle.

I'm pretty sure that at least was either already established or taken for granted. What with his trying to bust him out, trying to use him as a moral guide, and whatnot.

Ember Island does put slightly more emphasis on Aang/Katara though. I guess. Not sure that's a mark in it's favor though.

[Prince Raven]

I'm pretty sure that at least was either already established or taken for granted. What with his trying to bust him out, trying to use him as a moral guide, and whatnot.

Ember Island does put slightly more emphasis on Aang/Katara though. I guess. Not sure that's a mark in it's favor though.

It's important plot-wise even if it is a bit cringe-worthy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's important plot-wise even if it is a bit cringe-worthy.

Not really.

I also skipped The Southern Raiders the first time around, and I was just fine. Basically, stuff happens that improves Katara's attitude towards Zuko, that's it.

[Dienekes]

It's important plot-wise even if it is a bit cringe-worthy.

Actually, I'm of the opinion that Aang and Katara's relationship really isn't all that important to the plot. Oh I'm certain someone will come up with an example where Aang's feelings for her motivated some reaction. But mostly their budding romance was dropped in season 3 to instead deal with the growing threat, and only really showed up in brief moments of downtime.

That was good. The war is more interesting and important than their relationship anyway. And honestly, Zuko and Mai's relationship had more to do with the plot of the series than Katara and Aang.

[Prince Raven]

I suppose it wasn't really important for LoA but what about for LoK?

[Dienekes]

I suppose it wasn't really important for LoA but what about for LoK?

What about it? People get married and have kids all the time. It's hardly exceptional or needing in overlong explanation. There was more than enough teases for their relationship without Ember Island Players. If the episode never existed I doubt it would have made any difference. Those that liked Aang and Katara together still would. Those who liked Zuko and Katara would still rage for some reason. And their dynamic would have remained unchanged in the series. That episode is pretty much the definition of filler.

[Saph]

So, after much encouragement to give the series another try, I've decided to start a thread chronicling my watchthrough of Avatar: The Last Airbender (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16029157#post16029157).

Time will tell if I'll end up being grateful to you guys or the exact opposite. We shall see. :smalltongue:

Either way, feel free to chime in with suggestions!