Are these spells okay balance-wise? (D&D 3.5)

[DarkSonic1337]

copied from homebrew thread:


I had this idea for a custom line of spells the other day to help out people who depend on unarmed or natural attacks and I want to know what people think of it. I want some help refining them before I run them by my DM

Transfer Magical Ability
Transmutation
Level: Sorc/Wiz/Druid/(insert gish spell list or whatever) lvl3
Components: V, S, F
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

You transfer the special abilities of a magic weapon to one of the target's natural weapons. The total strength of abilities on the newly enhanced natural weapon cannot exceed +1 per three caster levels (maximum +5) For example, a level 3 Wizard could transfer the flaming ability from a +1 flaming speed longsword to a Wolf's bite attack, but could not transfer the speed ability. A 9th level wizard could transfer the speed ability or the flaming ability, and a 12th level wizard could transfer both. If the wolf already had a +1 equivalent ability on it's bite attack (such as keen), that +1 would stack with the transferred abilities towards determining the cap of the spell, preventing the level 3 Wizard from adding a +1 ability.

You may divide multiple transferred abilities amongst the creature's natural weapons however you wish. Alternatively, you can transfer one +1 special ability from the weapon to all of the creature's natural weapons.

The Weapon used as a focus is considered to be temporarily disenchanted of the abilities transferred for the spell's duration as if it had been effected by a Dispel Magic spell, and You cannot stack multiple castings of this spell onto the same natural weapon, even if the abilities transferred are different.

This spell also confers it's benefit to any unarmed attacks that the creature makes, as long as the creature is capable of inflicting lethal damage with unarmed attacks without penalty. Unarmed strikes use the special abilities of one of the creature's natural weapons, chosen at the time of casting.

Only abilities expressed as +X bonus equivalents can be transferred by this spell. This spell cannot transfer abilities from artifacts

Focus: A weapon with at least one special ability. Cannot be a weapon enhanced as ammunition.



Transfer Magical Ability (Greater)

Level: Sorc/Wiz/Druid/(insert gish spell list or whatever) lvl5
Components: V, S, F
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature.
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

This spell functions like Transfer Magical Ability, except that all of the transferred abilities apply to all of the creature's natural weapons and unarmed attacks.


Focus: A weapon with at least one special ability. Cannot be a weapon enhanced as ammunition.




So what do you guys think? Are these spells balanced for their respective levels? Is any of the wording confusing or redundant (and if so, what would you change it to)? I'm open to suggestions for flavor text on them as well if that's your thing, since...well I'm bad at flavor.


In addition, does anyone think the spells should be different levels on different lists (perhaps lower on the Ranger spell list for example)?

edit:spell levels changed to 3,4,5.

edit:combined the lower and middle spells and renamed them accordingly. Reworded the spell so that existing abilities on your natural weapon or unarmed strikes stack towards the spell's cap, preventing you from ever creating weapons with more than +5 worth of abilities through this spell (would a "superior" version breaking this cap be called for?). Clarified how the focus loses the abilities transferred for the duration of the spell

[holywhippet]

Well, one problem is that in some cases you can replicate an enchantment via a spell but the duration will be a lot less and the spell level will be different. Like brilliant blade gives a weapon the brilliant energy power for 1 minute per level. It's a level 7 spell for clerics & druids and level 6 for sorcerers and wizards.

A wizard can cast that spell at level 11 and have the spell last for 11 minutes. At level 16 though they could cast your level 2 variant (provided they have a brilliant energy weapon) and have it work for an hour.

[daemonaetea]

Well, one problem is that in some cases you can replicate an enchantment via a spell but the duration will be a lot less and the spell level will be different. Like brilliant blade gives a weapon the brilliant energy power for 1 minute per level. It's a level 7 spell for clerics & druids and level 6 for sorcerers and wizards.

A wizard can cast that spell at level 11 and have the spell last for 11 minutes. At level 16 though they could cast your level 2 variant (provided they have a brilliant energy weapon) and have it work for an hour.

I'm not convinced that's a problem in and of itself. In this case the spell has a very expensive focus - a weapon that already has the Brilliant Energy ability. The Brilliant Energy spell, to my recollection, does not have a pricey material component or focus.

[DarkSonic1337]

Yes I intend for the expensive focus to be a balancing point of the spell. You won't be able to grab abilities that your party doesn't already have in one weapon or another.

[navar100]

I definitely like the spells for their own sake in terms of effect. They are unique.

It would be high level, but Vorpal could be transferred. That may or may not be a problem depending on your view of the ability and whether the PCs would even have such a weapon.

Spell Storing would be interesting. Does the recipient get the ability to use the stored spell even if he couldn't normally cast spells or even of a different class list? If so, then this could be considered more powerful than the spell Imbue With Spell Ability or maybe it's a feature.

I doubt Intelligent Weapons would approve of being used for this spell. There should be a Force Of Will check. Failure makes the spell fail. Even on a success the weapon might should still get a saving throw. Can the Intelligence be transferred?

It's obvious, but the spell descriptions should say it cannot work on artifacts.

If I recall correctly, the amount of magic in a weapon helps determine its base defenses such as saving throws, hardness, etc. Does having an ability transferred alter these?

Can the regular enhancement number be transferred?

Would it be too much to allow these spells to use magic armor and shields as well, or should that be a separate spell series if it would even be allowed?

[DarkSonic1337]

I'd be fine with Vorpral being transferred, considering it would take a lvl20 wizard to do so (any lower would of course require caster level buffing. I'm not really taking that into account for these).

Spellstoring would work the same way the normal spell storing weapon enhancement works. It would be limited to 3rd level or lower spells as normal, and would be placed into your natural weapon in the same way that you'd stick it in a sword. Kinda cool to think of it with unarmed strikes though (the spell would be stored in your BODY).

I'd say that the intelligent item would just make an Ego check if it's unwilling. It's fun to think of a thinking weapon's reaction to it's power being forcibly pulled from it.

Added in the ban on artifacts.

The weapon becoming weaker for the duration of this spell is an interesting consequence. Maybe I should have the spell end if the weapon is destroyed.:smallamused:

No, the regular +X number bonus cannot be transferred.

I feel like Armor and Shields would have their own line of spells....yeah.

[ericgrau]

Greater transfer magic ability doesn't seem any stronger than transfer magic ability, only a little more versatile. So I'd peg it at 1 level higher. Likewise superior only saves you from blowing multiple castings of the lower level spells which is only barely better. So it should be only 1 level higher.

Now the big question is where to put regular transfer magical ability. The effect is stronger than greater magic fang because it stacks with greater magic fang, and GMF doesn't. You could argue that GMF stacks with TMA too, but the big difference is that GMF already exists. Your spell is the change that is doubling the buffer's power. If you're still confused, at least realize that the power available before is less than the power available now that there are two hour/level natural weapon buff spells that stack with eachother rather than one, and natural weapon users will be stronger from it. So somehow something got boosted no matter how you slice it.

OTOH the weapon cost is a drawback. At level 8 especially it's hard to afford a +3 equivalent weapon (+1 weapon with a +2 equivalent enchantment). More likely you'll use a weapon that's a +1 below the cap, so that should be the balance point. It's still nice b/c it stacks so I'd peg it at level 3. Even if you can't afford the spell slots to stack both spells, a cheap 2000 gp necklace of natural attacks partly mitigates the issue and brings TMA up to GMF level. Or a little better for being a special enchantment rather than an enhancement bonus, but it did cost a little gp.

So IMO the spell levels should be 3, 4, and 5.

[DarkSonic1337]

Yeah I did notice that the spells didn't get significantly more powerful, and honestly I was just using Magic Fang as a baseline for the spell levels. For the greater version I can honestly see the "transfer one special ability from the weapon to all of the creature's natural weapons" ability getting the most use, just because the focus is damn expensive.

Anybody else agree that the spell levels are spread too much? I can see it working as 3,4,5 too, but having them so close together makes the lower ones feel like a bit of a waste to me. I'd probably only pick the TMA, and TMA (superior) in game. Is there any reason people would still pick TMA (Greater) with the levels so close together?

[ericgrau]

I might only get 2, but it could just as easily be TMA + greater TMA. I probably only want a single +1 or +2 equivalent enchantment on all my natural weapons anyway. That's all you can afford anyway. I wouldn't get +3 until about level 13-14, because a +1 weapon with +3 in abilities costs 32,000 gp. At that point you can cast 7ths and have plenty of spell slots for whichever lower level spells. So then you finally pick up superior TMA only if you have 3 or more natural weapons, so you can conserve level 4 spells per day. At 1 or 2 natural weapons I'd probably blow the 2 level 4 spells instead. Or maybe 4 to keep it up 24 hours, but still only twice as much as the 5s so it's not so bad.

But ya you could reduce it down to 2 if you want to make it simpler.

[DarkSonic1337]

If people think that the Greater version is still worth getting, I think I'll leave all three available as options and go with 3,4,5 as spell levels.

[icefractal]

I'd drop TMA, put GTMA at 3rd (but with the weaker "+1 equivalent all weapons", as per GMF), and STMA at 5th (but with a better scaling like 1/3 instead of 1/4).

Comparison wise, it does stack with GMF, but it also requires a costly focus. And for that matter, GMF isn't even good until higher CL. At least this should have some purpose when you first get it, for grabbing situational weapon properties.

[DarkSonic1337]

I'd drop TMA, put GTMA at 3rd (but with the weaker "+1 equivalent all weapons", as per GMF), and STMA at 5th (but with a better scaling like 1/3 instead of 1/4).

Comparison wise, it does stack with GMF, but it also requires a costly focus. And for that matter, GMF isn't even good until higher CL. At least this should have some purpose when you first get it, for grabbing situational weapon properties.

So something like this?

Transfer Magical Ability
Transmutation
Level: Sorc/Wiz/Druid/(insert gish spell list or whatever) lvl3
Components: V, S, F
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

You transfer the special abilities of a magic weapon to one of the target's natural weapons. The total strength of abilities on the newly enhanced natural weapon cannot exceed +1 per three caster levels (maximum +5) For example, a level 3 Wizard could transfer the flaming ability from a +1 flaming speed longsword to a Wolf's bite attack, but could not transfer the speed ability. A 9th level wizard could transfer the speed ability or the flaming ability, and a 12th level wizard could transfer both. If the wolf already had a +1 equivalent ability on it's bite attack (such as keen), that +1 would stack with the transferred abilities towards determining the cap of the spell, preventing the level 3 Wizard from adding a +1 ability.

You may divide multiple transferred abilities amongst the creature's natural weapons however you wish. Alternatively, you can transfer one +1 special ability from the weapon to all of the creature's natural weapons.

The Weapon used as a focus is considered to be temporarily disenchanted of the abilities transferred as if it had been effected by a Dispel Magic spell, and You cannot stack multiple castings of this spell onto the same natural weapon, even if the abilities transferred are different.

This spell also confers it's benefit to any unarmed attacks that the creature makes, as long as the creature is capable of inflicting lethal damage with unarmed attacks without penalty. Unarmed strikes use the special abilities gained by one of the creature's natural weapons, chosen at the time of casting.

Only abilities expressed as +X bonus equivalents can be transferred by this spell. This spell cannot transfer abilities from artifacts

Focus: A weapon with at least one special ability. Cannot be a weapon enhanced as ammunition.



Transfer Magical Ability (Greater)

Level: Sorc/Wiz/Druid/(insert gish spell list or whatever) lvl5
Components: V, S, F
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One living creature.
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)

This spell functions like Transfer Magical Ability, except that all of the transferred abilities apply to all of the creature's natural weapons and unarmed attacks.


Focus: A weapon with at least one special ability. Cannot be a weapon enhanced as ammunition.



Dropped the gold->+X conversion because....well TMA is just a little too wordy for me and I don't think there's enough gold equivalent abilities to warrant a mention in the spell.

[Aracor]

My only question: Would this work with chain spell? As of right now, it looks like you could do one for many.

[Zancloufer]

For the revised ones, the first one looks okay. Nice concept and a unique and useful spell. I mean it's a tad weak at first glance, but on the flip side it is a level two spell, so it's better than Magic Fang, but weaker than Greater Magic Fang half the time, so I think the balanced is spot on.

For the Second one, I would just make it a 4-5th level spell, and double it's power (IE +1 per 2/caster level +10 max). Remember that a +5 weapon with +5 worth of enchantments is considered effectively +10 (Ie: Keen is considered +1, Brilliant Energy +4 etc). Follows the pattern of power/higher level spells better than your current set up. Not to mention this limits the power you can transfer to pre-epic levels. Currently with the Greater weapon IF someone gets a hold of an Epic Weapon/Artifact they can essentially transfer it's power to someone's natural attacks. I mean the rewording won't effect the spell 90% of the time, but does reduced the potential for RAW abuse.

Otherwise the wording is a tad confusing. Remember the +1 Enhancement bonus counts to, so here is my slightly nit-picky edit:


You transfer the special abilities of a magic weapon to one of the target's natural weapons. The total strength of the abilities transferred is limited to +1 per three caster levels (maximum +5) and for the duration of the spell, that weapon loses the magical abilities that were transferred. For example, a level 3 Wizard could transfer the flaming property OR the +1 Enhancement Bonus from a +1 Flaming Speed Longsword to a Wolf's bite attack, but could not transfer the Speed property, . A 9th level wizard could transfer the Speed, ability or the flaming ability and +1 Enchancement. A 12th level wizard could transfer all three. You may divide multiple transferred abilities amongst the creature's natural weapons however you wish.

I would also mention the Weapon used as a focus is considered to be temporarily disenchanted of the properties transferred as if it had been effected by a Dispel Magic spell. Otherwise you'd have some silly RAW interpretation where someone uses the same focus multiple times.

[DarkSonic1337]

For the Second one, I would just make it a 4-5th level spell, and double it's power (IE +1 per 2/caster level +10 max). Remember that a +5 weapon with +5 worth of enchantments is considered effectively +10 (Ie: Keen is considered +1, Brilliant Energy +4 etc). Follows the pattern of power/higher level spells better than your current set up. Not to mention this limits the power you can transfer to pre-epic levels. Currently with the Greater weapon IF someone gets a hold of an Epic Weapon/Artifact they can essentially transfer it's power to someone's natural attacks. I mean the rewording won't effect the spell 90% of the time, but does reduced the potential for RAW abuse.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by double it's power. The spell is only capable of grabbing abilities, not straight +X enhancement bonuses. So if you wanted to make a +10 natural weapon you'd need to either.

a) have a +5 natural weapon and grab a number of special abilities who's bonuses add to another +5
or
b) cast greater magic fang (or superior magic fang) and grab a number of special abilities who's bonuses add to another +5

Perhaps I should change the wording so that the newly enchanted natural weapon cannot exceed the spell's cap? (So there'd be no cases of using it to transfer a +4 ability to a natural weapon that already has a +3 ability on it for example).

I also specifically mentioned no artifacts.




Otherwise the wording is a tad confusing. Remember the +1 Enhancement bonus counts to, so here is my slightly nit-picky edit:


I would also mention the Weapon used as a focus is considered to be temporarily disenchanted of the properties transferred as if it had been effected by a Dispel Magic spell. Otherwise you'd have some silly RAW interpretation where someone uses the same focus multiple times.

"A single weapon may only be used for one casting of this spell at a time, and you cannot stack multiple castings of this spell onto the same natural weapon, even if the abilities transferred are different."

Though your wording would probably be a better way to say it.