Player's Handbook only, Cleric question

[Con_Brio1993]

So looking at the infamous DnD tier list, there is great emphasis on how important Divine Metamagic is (and nightsticks). If both of these were unavailable to players, would clerics drop considerably on the tier list, do they drop to 2nd tier? Or do they have other tricks besides DMM that would keep them tier 1

*the tools are unavailable because players are using ONLY the Dungeon Master's Guide, Player's Handbook, and Player's Handbook II.

[eggynack]

No. They would still be a tier one class. Even in core, they have a pretty solid trick to their name, and it's called full casting off of an extensive list. They don't need the ability to persist a pile of buffs to be extremely versatile and powerful.

Edit: I just wanted to note that I used the term core, despite your book list having a non-core book on it, which is the PHB II. The third core book is MM I. Anyways, it doesn't make a big power level difference, as far as I know.

[Con_Brio1993]

No. They would still be a tier one class. Even in core, they have a pretty solid trick to their name, and it's called full casting off of an extensive list. They don't need the ability to persist a pile of buffs to be extremely versatile and powerful.

Does their role change significantly at the very least? I imagine they become less a front row fighter without persist buffs on themselves, and become more a support role?

[GilesTheCleric]

No, clerics are always tier 1. We talked about this very recently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301439).

Edit: Their role (which is any/all roles) does not change, either. Every spell you need for nearly any task is in core. For melee, see Righteous Might.

[Con_Brio1993]

No, clerics are always tier 1. We talked about this very recently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=301439).

Wow... that is really recent. Sorry I missed it :smallfrown:

[GilesTheCleric]

That's all right. These boards move pretty quickly; I just didn't want to post the same things all over again.

If you had any other specific questions on how to run a core cleric, though, we can certainly help out.

[eggynack]

Does their role change significantly at the very least? I imagine they become less a front row fighter without persist buffs on themselves, and become more a support role?
I'm not sure what the ideal role for a core cleric is, because I'm not sure that there is one. Clerics can fill just about any role, even in core. They have the whole necromantic minionmancy thing, and they still have a good number of buffs and debuffs, as well as a good heaping pile of utility and support. They can do just about anything, and the question becomes even more muddled when you add in domains. I don't like them as much as I like druids and wizards, especially in core, but they're full casters, and that means the ability to approach any given problem in a massive number of ways.

[JusticeZero]

Well, restricted to Core, what are some specific favorite general-purpose combos to make the DM weep that you can think of?

[GilesTheCleric]

Making the DM weep isn't what makes the tier system. That's just making the DM weep.

[Gwendol]

Well, restricted to Core, what are some specific favorite general-purpose combos to make the DM weep that you can think of?

Why would you want to do that?

In any case, even restricted to core you get some very solid spells, as well as domain choices.

[ArcturusV]

Keep in mind the tier system isn't just about Raw Power. Raw Power only really defines tier 3 and below, with lower tiers being "Weaker than above" typically. Tier 1, tier 2? They're defined by versatility and applicability, more than Raw Power.

A divine spellcaster like a Cleric is pretty much automatically tier 1 because any spell marked "Clr" in the book, or with one of their domains, is available to them on demand. There's no limited stockpile. That's pretty much tier 2's definition. "Would be tier 1... except limited stockpile of options".

With Cleric you have: The best divinations (knowledge is power and knowing what's coming up is a key to versatility). The best buffs in core short of Shapechange/Polymorph. Flexible spells that can create a variety of effects (A lot of cleric utility has multi purpose like Protection From X, Bestow Curse, Planar Ally). All the hallmarks of Tier 1.

Persisted things? I've never seen a real need for them. You persist to make yourself look like a Paladin (Melee frontliner with holy buffs, only a couple of them up all day). No one is thinking the Paladin is badass outside of low OP.

[LordBlades]

Does their role change significantly at the very least? I imagine they become less a front row fighter without persist buffs on themselves, and become more a support role?

Actually, no they don't. No DMM: Persist means the cleric's melee potential takes a hit, but no melee feat worth taking apart from Power Attack means any non-caster's melee potential takes an even bigger hit. A core-only cleric still trashes a core-only fighter/barbarian in melee, it's just a much worse choice now than Druid (who is in no significant way hindered by the core-only restriction).

[Gwendol]

Eh, the cleric is arguably a stronger pick than druid, even in core.

[LordBlades]

Eh, the cleric is arguably a stronger pick than druid, even in core.

Not for melee though, IMO at least.

[Gwendol]

Because of wildshape and the AC? Maybe, but their real power lies in spells and their versatility. I'd say the cleric got more bases covered, even in core.

[eggynack]

I think it's mostly a matter of preference. I prefer the druid spell list to the cleric spell list, because it has a good mix of battlefield control and summoning that a cleric can't really match. Clerics tend to have more of an edge in the buffing, debuffing, and utility departments. Druids also have the advantage of moment to moment versatility, because spontaneous conversion of poor spell selections into summons is so much better than doing the same for cure spells, and because wild shape can essentially change big chunks of your statistical makeup on a whim.

[Darrin]

Well, restricted to Core, what are some specific favorite general-purpose combos to make the DM weep that you can think of?

Planar ally -> efreet w/ SLA wish x3 -> 2 wishes + candle of invocation -> rinse/repeat.

Summon monster VII -> djinn w/ SLA major creation -> 20 cubic feet of Black Lotus Extract.

Gate -> solar casts gate -> solar casts gate -> rinse/repeat.