League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk [Archive]

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Nadevoc

2013-09-09, 10:43 PM

League of Legends LII: Sin of the Blind Monk

Welcome! You can sign up for League of Legends here (http://signup.leagueoflegends.com/en/signup/). It's a free MOBA based on Defense of the Ancients.

If it sounds like we're speaking a foreign language in here, the glossary of LoL terms (http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/League_of_Legends_terminology) can help you with that.

We maintain lists of players, sorted by server. If you are not on these lists and would like to be, please post in the thread with the following information in bold: Server (if you don't know it, it's likely the region you're in, but it's worth checking anyway), your Forum Name, and your Summoner Name.

If no reply's been made about adding you after a day or two, first check the lists to see if you've been added, if not, feel free to post again or PM me. Any incorrectly formatted posts will probably be overlooked.

BR Server Huehuehuehuehuehue
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Draken|Draken Frosthand
[/table]

NA Server
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name

0tt3r | 0tt3r
9mm | cwcriner
Adumbration | Benefice
aethernox | joyless
Alemil | Alemil
Alter | AlterForm
Anarion | Anarion55
Anonomuss | OpticalSage
Antonok | Antonok
Arbitrarity | Arbitrarity
ArcanistSupreme | Arcanist Supreme
Archangel Yuki | Yocham
Artanis | LegacyCWAL
assassin89 | nineballcirno
Astrella | Sirroelivan
AtwasAwamps | AtwasAwamps
Aurenthal | Estor
Averis Vol | AverisVol
Baron Corm | Baron Corm
Baxter | Thefettered
BinaryMage | BinaryMage
Bliss Authority | Companion N00b
Blueiji | Blueiji
BobVosh | BobVosh -or- VoshBob
Bookboy | Keledrath
Brother Oni | MarineHK4861
Caradryan | Ying Quliang
CarpeGuitarrem | CarpeGuitarrem
Castleraven | Castleraven
cdstephens | cdstephens
Chess435 | Chess435
Copacetic | Azbu
Creed | Moarzed
CrnvorousMeece | CarnivorousMeece
Croverus | Croverus
Cute_Riolu | Cute Riolu
Dallas-Dakota | MustacheMan
Dante & Vergil | Raphiezar
Darius Macab | Hawkfrost000
Darth Mario | Darth Mario
Daverin | Daverin
Dentrag2 | Callinectes
dgnslyr | GANKERLagann
Dichotomy | Kaellin
Dire Ferret | Guvna Kit Kit
Djinn in Tonic | The Djinn
Dogmantra | Dogmantra
Don Julio Anejo | Don Julio Anejo
douglas | DouglasM
Doxkid | Doxkid
Dragonus45 | Dragonus45
Drager0 | Drager0
Dragor | Supernaturalist
Draken | Draken Frosthand
DrakeRaids | DrakeRaids057
Dralnu | TomerIsHot
dukexx | JacksonHicks
Duos | DapperGuy
Dusk Eclipse | DuskSoul
efdf | efdf
EifieFlare | EifieFlare
Elagune | Chopstyx
Eldariel | Elealar
EndlessWrath | Andurin
Epicfaillol | Ether Master
Errandir | Ramses III
EternalMelon | EternalMelon
faith | Ferrovax101
FantomFang | FantomFang
Farix | Jiin in Tin
Faulty | FaultyClockwork
Fawkes | Count Fawkes
FeverFox | Alcopop
Flarowon | Kruin Avabruc
Flechair | Master Zealot
FleshrakerAbuse | Archdruid21
Folytopo | Folytopo
Forrestfire | Forrestfire15
Frankelshtein | McFinkelstein
Fredaintdead | Fredthefighter
Gallus | Anechois
Geigan | Geigan
Giant Panda | Le Shirrif
gimliggamer | Wizard Warlock
Gizladlo | Gizladlo
glemis | glemis
Godskook | Bethor Kookalian
Gourtox | Gourtox
Gruffard | Gruffard
Grytorm
hamiltond465 | Duodecimus
Hanuman | HanumanXoO
Happy Gravity | Deimosaur
Hatevah | Hatevah
heronbpv|Sérpico
Holocron Coder | Holocron
Incomp | Incomp
InyutheBeatIs | Believe Inyu
Istari | IstariK
Ivellius | Ivellius
Jamin | CapZich
JKTrickster | ZenTrickster
Joran | Jorana
KaizoMK | KaizoMK
Kara Kuro | RaptorKitty
Kciemir | Ghostface Ki11ah
Kettle | Kettle747
king.com | kingcom
Kinslayer | HaunterReqiuem
Kirbot | Kirbot
kmchii | kmchii
knightMARE|Sir Wiffleston
Kopaka | Portent
Kotarus | Adrameleck
Kwazey | Kwazey
Lansky | Blurbie
Laudandus | Laudandus
LegoShrimp | LegoShrimp
LightWraith | TheLightWraith
Lil Shiro | Mizz Mitchell
litewarior | litewarior
Lonely Tylenol | If I Had a Hifi
Lord Generic | Lord Generic
LordShotGun | LordShotGun
LostEnder | LostEnder
Low-Key | TheFuzziestBear
Lunix Vandal|Lunix Vandal
lvl 1 sharnian | StarryEagle
Lyxie | Lyxie
Maeglin_Dubh | Tycho Velius
Makensha | Jarbis
MammonAzrael | MammonAzrael
Manticoran | Manticoran
Maryring | Skilvrel
MasatoHyuga | MasatoHyuga
Master_Rahl22 | Goltoth
master256 | QWERTYSTOP
Math_Mage | Mathmage
Mattarias, King. | Mattarias
Malmagor Andrigal | Madmal
Maxios | Maxios20
McCerberus | MCerberus
McDougal | McDouggal
Meatshield#236 | Meatshield236
Merellis | Merellis
Mike_the_Mystic | Kraemer
Milskidasith | Milskidasith
Mindfreak586 | Mindfreak586
Mirrinus | Parallaxal
Miscast_Mage | MiscastMage
Moklok | KokoBWare
Mr. Mud | Proposal
mrcarter11 | Mrcarter11
mrzomby | mrzomby
Mtg_player_zach | MtgPlayerZach
Mushroom Ninja | Mushroom Ninja
Mutant Bunny | WhollySpart
Nadevoc | Xenik
Nanoblack | IwearSILLYhats
Nargan | Naryuk
Necroticplague | Yamidamian
Neoseanster | Neoseanster
NeoVid | NeoVid
Nerocite | Nerocite
neXianXavia | neXianXavia
NoobForHire | NoobF0rHire
NotAEvilToaster | NeonPie
oblivion6 | warcrown10
Octopus Jack | Thalric
Olinser | Olinser
Otomodachi | Cyfarfod
Outsideheaven | Outsideheaven
Perkinz|Perkinz
PersonMan | Nsev
Pie Guy | Qwazes
pilvento | Kandrass
PhantomFox | PhantomFox7
PhoeKun | PhoeKun
Poison Fish | Baron Von Flib
Postmodernist | Postmodernist
Protecar | Godreig
Protecar | Atk
Psychotic | SquirrelFish
Qaera | Qaera
ragingrage | ragingrage
Raistlin1040 | Sanevale
Rama | Nargus
Raroy | setokaibasmt
RationalGoblin | AtillathePun
Reinboom| Riot Reinboom
Raveypoos | Rhaviewoos
recklessabaddon | recklessabaddon
revolver kobold | A Magic Kobold
Reynard | Duke Reynington
Sallera | Sallera
Saveducks | ElGrandisimo
Serpentine | Lady Serpentine
Shades of Gray | PierreAbelard
shadowwalker64 | shadowwalker65
Shadowleaf | Shadowdancing
Shadow Lord | ShadowLordgiantitp
Shadowy | DJPON3Vinyl
ShortOne | LittlePoppy
SidCoolios | Irazel
Silverraptor | Silverraptor
Siosilvar | Siosilvar
Sircarp | Sircarp
SirSigfried | LibertarianSDR
Slash_712 | Catfud
sofawall | sofawall
sonofzeal | sonofzeal
St. Viers | St.Viers
Starfols | Starfols
Starswords | Starswords
SuperPanda | Lokilar
TalonDemonKing | TalonDemonKing
TechnOkami | TechnOkami
Temotei | Temotei221
Terazul | Allegretto
term1nally s1ck | silverdevilboy
tesla_pasta | generictownsman
Thanatos 51-50 | Thanatos Erebus
The_Ditto | Ditto11
The_Fiery_Tower | TFT Supports
TheGlowingRogue | I Glow In Dark
Themage | SirPelletheGreat
Thethan | Thethan
The Hellbug | hellbug22
The Rabbler | Paco H Jones
The Shadowmind | The Shadowmind
The Valiant Turtle | Valiant Turtle
Thrantar | Thrantar
Thrawn183 | Thrawnyboy
throtecutter | throtecutter
toasty | toastymow
Thomas Cadrew | DecadentPheonix
Tono | Tono Chou
Treayn | Treayn
tribble | Smallbluedot
Tychris1 | Tychris1
u-gotNOgame | UGNG -or- Sirius Amory
userpay | userpay
Vauron | Vauron
Volatar | The Volatar
Vwulf DeMarcus | NinjaXeq
wandiya | wandiya
Wolf_Haley | Jon Talbain
Winterwind | DreamingHeart
Winthur | Seyruun
WyvernLord | WyvernThornKing
woodzyowl | Woodzyowl
XaioTie | Tiefernan
Zabbarot | Zabbarot
Zeful | Zeful
ZeltArruin | ZeltArruin
Zemro | Shivic
ZeroNumerous | ZeroNumerous
Zeteni | Zeteni
Zinc | El Jaun Zinco
zmasterofjersey | GhosTazer
zolga | TheZolga[/table]

EU Server--West
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Acromos | Crannoch
Adumbration | Adumbration
Anonomuss | Anonomuss
Azimov | Sidhe de Athame
Brother Oni | MarineHK4861
Cheers | Sam vds
Cyborg Mage | Cyborg Mage98
Eldariel | Elealar
Even Human | SlyGuyMcFly
Gauntlet | Isva
HalfDragonCube | giantmudkip
Krazzman | Viskerin
Maryring | Skilvrel
Maxymiuk | Maxymiuk
Mc. Lovin | B1GB1RDB4G3L
Miscast_Mage | MiscastMage
monkeyboyinc | monkeyboyinc
Morph Bark | Morpheus Bob
Nargan | Naryuk
Outsideheaven | Outsideheaven
PersonMan | Scarge
Reb46 | Reb46
Reynard | Duke Reyn
Runhidesurvive | Jmack10
Saph | StarSaph
Socratov | Mbutu
shadowwalker64 | shadowwalker64
Talesin | Fridgecake
term1nally s1ck | Silverdevilboy
That'd_be_me | AntiLocke
TheGeckoKing | Alpharis Omega
Volatar | VolatarUK
Winterwind | DreamingHeart
Ziren | Zirenoid
zolga | MasterZolga[/table]

EU Server--Nordic & East
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Dada | Scrattlebeard
darksolitaire | Darksolitaire
Posca | LDRC
Rockbird | Rockbird[/table]

EU Server--Unspecified
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Abakus | Terpfen
Alemil | Alemil
Ayra | Ayramatao
Darwin | DarwinBeGood
Endoperez | Endoperez
Heliomance | Sidhe de Grian
Kurrel | GrinningOni
littlebottom | Littlebottom
lord_khaine | Lord_khaine
Narazil | Narazil
Narkis | Narkis
Penthar | Malderon
Raviepoos | Skittles Unicorn
Shadowleaf | AncientPharma
Voidhawk | Sidhe ne Awk
Zefir | Einerwie
Zombywoof | Zombywoof[/table]

SEA Server
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
abadguy | Smite Thy Enemy[/table]

Oceanic Server
{table=head]Forum Name|Game Name
Red Rubber Band|HeWhoIsJohn
[/table]

MUMBLE
Download here! (http://mumble.sourceforge.net/)
Our main means of communication is a mumble server, playing host to a variety of games, including LoL. We're quite a tight knit community, get to know us! Hanging about is a good way to find a game, and if you don't fancy playing something there's always a good chance of a friendly chat. Contact Djinn_in_Tonic via PM if you have a question or want to donate money to keep the server running.
Address: fish.mumbleboxes.com
Port: 36003

Admins: Djinn_in_Tonic (Djinn); Darth Mario; ShortOne (LittlePoppy, Raven); Dogmantra; Nano (Nanoceraptor).

STREAMS
Some of us run streams. You can watch them here.
Legoshrimp (http://www.twitch.tv/legoshrimp)
McDouggal (http://www.twitch.tv/McDouggal)
Silverraptor (http://www.livestream.com/silverrapter?t=527242)
The Fiery Tower (http://www.twitch.tv/the_fiery_tower)

GUIDES & CHAMPION OVERVIEWS
Sometimes people write guides and post them in this thread. Other times pro players write guides that people then post in this thread. They often end up here.
Champion Introductions:
Thanks to Eldariel, Playgrounders in Thread XLV (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277003) wrote blurbs to introduce players to their favorite champions. Yay.
Ahri (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14981225&postcount=520) by SlyGuyMcFly
Alistar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15079170&postcount=297) by Joran
Amumu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14991206&postcount=727) by Ivellius
Anivia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14971268&postcount=332) by Eldariel
Annie (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14972307&postcount=366) by endoperez
Caitlyn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14973242&postcount=375) by McDougal
Cho'Gath (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14973137&postcount=374) by Happy Gravity
Janna (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14976717&postcount=424) by Winthur
Fizz (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14971765&postcount=345) by PersonMan
Hecarim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14973331&postcount=377) by Arbitrarity
Irelia (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14980231&postcount=502) by aethernox
Kennen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14973033&postcount=372) by Anarion
LeBlanc (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15049895&postcount=15) by Miscast_Mage
Lulu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14975266&postcount=413) by Kris on a Stick
Nasus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14971542&postcount=340) by TheShrike
Nocturne (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15057985&postcount=97) by Darius Macab
Olaf (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14972935&postcount=371) by dgnslyr
Rengar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14974241&postcount=387) by ChaosOS
Singed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14976931&postcount=427) by QWERTSTOP
Skarner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14984458&postcount=591) by TechnOkami
Sona (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14971676&postcount=344) by Forrestfire
Tristana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14975078&postcount=409) by Math_Mage
Vi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14976557&postcount=423) by Pherinos
Zyra (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14982344&postcount=541) by The Fiery Tower

General Guides:
A General Guide to Support (http://tpesports.net/index.php?site=articles&action=show&articlesID=32), by Math Mage
Guide to General Common Jungler Set-Ups (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12409551&postcount=575), by Mtg_player_zach
Small Guide to Jungle Counterpicking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12379254&postcount=98), by Winthur
General Guide to AD Carries (http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=9234)
Seizing the fourth digit: Playing your way out of Elo Hell. (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=341821) by Math_Mage
Faulty and Raistlin's Quick Build Database: Notes and Stuff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10942497&postcount=1004) by Faulty and Raistlin
Turning Skill Into Elo: Solo Queue Mindset And Methodology (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1220673) by MathMage
How to be a Good Team Leader (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1374492) by Darth Mario

Specific Champion Guides:
Be warned. These guides are, by and large, outdated. Much of the information referenced in these guides has been made obsolete as a result of League's natural patch cycle and changes from Season to Season. If you're looking for information on a champion, you'll have better luck at SoloMid.net (http://solomid.net/guides.php?champ=&sort=2&display=4&x=98&y=9) or LolPro.com (http://LoLPro.com). Alternatively, ask the thread!
Riven 101 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12579737&postcount=204), by Arbitrarity
Highly Artistic Blitzcrank guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12380155&postcount=115), by Dogmantra
Laser Bear Udyr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9657101&postcount=39), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Rammus: Can't touch this (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=258919), by Math_Mage
Twitch (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board
[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10267058&postcount=1448), by Djinn_In_Tonic
Jungle Akali (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10498621&postcount=1358) by Djinn
How to play everyone's favourite Lightning Squirrel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10518034&postcount=154) by Dogmantra
Lee Sin (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=636475) by Dralnu
Super Serious Rumble Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11052926&postcount=904) by Dogmantra
OH SNAP Morgana Can Jungle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11295698&postcount=1238) by Dogmantra
Anivia Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11514141&postcount=845) by Eldariel
Tristana (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11938481&postcount=1029) by MathMage
CLASSY VIDEOS FOR CLASSY PEOPLE*
Watching these videos makes you a classier person. Fact.
Jungle Janna! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC6wm9iaNmM)
How to Win Every Game in League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrsTE1vpoXM)
Panic at the Nexus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7WlCbaLI3I)
Sunfire Cape Sunday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgjfX6crjrg)
Season One Trailer with Commentary (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/news/season-one-trailer-commentary)
D-Town (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wHp4VJ47v0)
Insanity Mix (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGKN1Adzckk&feature=related)
(Truly, Truly) Outrageous (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC7S05vI-BU&feature=related)
I'm just a noob (Ryze Ryze Ryze again) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wpr1T-pgaZY&feature=related)
e.o.n Shen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHs_cGUPQ3M&feature=related)
Vendrim-Ionia (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry3E2UQMe3k&hd=1)
Pwn ur FACE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf9VSDt0EN4)
Your -Epic- Dreamhack comes true! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKCs1CyBFLg)
Ezreal Custom Skin Spotlight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zn-HoAPlg-c)
I Just Got Ganked (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpNVN33fj4Y&feature=channel_video_title)
Keep Feeding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaR0frKc4a0)
Champion Rap Battles -- Brolaf vs. Gentleman Cho'Gath (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ-r300BVFI)
Combinasion BOOM! League of Legends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwzsXR4sM_Y)
All in the Cards (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9d3342IXSs)
No One Ganks Like Garen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD4uiTQsRJg)
Rammus Taunts Everyone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-8Q4PM4PXM)

COMICS AND PICS
It's like your eyes are getting a massage.LoL Comic (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=48169) by Elagune
Learn Your Alphabet (http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/6264/g28376.png) by Dogmantra and Pierreabelard (with a mention in Summoner Showcase #36 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy7JWV-HA28&feature=feedu)!)
Chibi Champions (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=763895) by pika7
Gender Swaps (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=606416) by ShowMeYourMoves
Champion Flowchart Guides (http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=608154) by Renekton Bot
Patch Day Comic (http://i.imgur.com/kHtwk.jpg) by DaemianFF
TRAVEL BACK IN TIME: PREVIOUS THREADS
Proof we're not all experiencing collective haullucinations.
League of Legends LI: A Song of Loss and Ire - A Game of Throws (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298396)
League of Legends L: Lucian's Lost Love's Luxurious Lantern Lodge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293376)
League of Legends XLIX: Why are there snowballs in a jungle? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=289027)
League of Legends XLVIII: A Broken Spine is Just a Twist of Fate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15339231#post15339231)
League of Legends XLVII: Legend of Poro - Retcons on Ice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282669)
League of Legends XLVI: Everybody now comes from Freljord (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279408)
League of Legends XLV: They ruined the King AND his blade! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277003)
League of Legends XLIV: *SQUAWK* Who's there? *SQUAWK* League of Legends XLIV who? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273412)
League of Legends XLIII: Now with 100% more Leagues. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=270068)
League of Legends XLII: I Hope The New Champ Is Vi-able (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=266201)
League of Legends XLI: Fish Are Friends, Not Food (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263722)
League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'till Morello Gets Gold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261213)
League of Legends XXXIX: Harrowing in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14079780#post14079780)
League of Legends XXXVIII: Featuring Mumble, The Giant Halibut (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13921041)
League of Legends XXXVII: Thread Name Delayed for Further Testing on PBE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253343)
League of Legends XXXVI: Thread Now Invisible When You're Not Looking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250948)
League of Legends XXXV: Jayce, the Defender of Soon™ (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248760)
League of Legends XXXIV: No Exceptions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246004)
League of Legends XXXIII: Game of Mundo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13142848#post13142848)
League of Legends XXXII: Cupcakes and Kittens and Squirrels. Oh my! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237600)
League of Legends XXXI: I'll Start My Own Team! With TF And Janna! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234631)
League of Legends XXX: Must be Summoner Level 18 to View (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231927)
League of Legends XXIX: Are Nerfs Vayne In This Grave Situation? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229460)
League of Legends XXVIII: Ahri-Vederci, Dodge. Hello, Viktory. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12466887)
League of Legends XXVII: Your Sister's Hotter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225730)
League of Legends XXVI: We've officially jumped the shark (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223894)
League of Legends XXV: Who is your Summoner, and what does he do? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221849)
League of Legends XXIV: Today's Noob Strat, Tomorrow's New Meta (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219436)
League of Legends XXIII: gunbladeface.jpg (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217744)
League of Legends XXII: Teamwork OP, Nerf Nao (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215725)
League of Legends XXI: For The Love Of God Amumu, Stop Crying! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213794)
League of Legends XX: Riot's in the Playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211977)
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League of Legends 5: Tall Grass Used Garen! DEMACIAAA! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173805)
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League Of Legends: We post where we please. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139094)

NineThePuma

2013-09-09, 10:45 PM

September update:

Current players:

{table=head]Forum Name|Starting placement|Starting wins|Progress|Server

abadguy | Placement | 0 | 15/100 | ?
Anarion | Bronze I, 93 LP | 40 | 59/100 | NA
Dallas-Dakota | Silver II, 45 LP | 52 | 01/100 | NA
Darius Macab | Bronze I, 13 LP | 10 | 18/100 | NA
dgnslyr | Silver III, 100 LP | 111 | 08/100 | NA
Dragonus45 | Silver IV, 2 LP | 104 | 14/100 | NA
Duos | Silver III, 91 LP | 112 | 60/100 | NA
Eldariel | Platinum I, 0 LP | 74 | 18/100 | EUW
Endoperez | Silver V, 82 LP | 51 | 13/100 | EUW
Epinephrine_Syn | Silver IV, 34 LP | 07 | 00/100 | ?
Forrestfire | Silver V, 3 LP | 95 | 33/100 | NA
Gimliggamer | Silver IV, 2 LP | 78 | 16/100 | NA
Grytorm | Bronze II, 58 LP | 16 | 14/100 | NA
Godskook | Gold V, 29 LP | 160 | 23/100 | NA
Ivellius | Silver III, 29 LP | 15 | 16/100 | NA
Kris on a Stick | Silver V, 100 LP | 33 | 21/100 | NA
Legoshrimp | Silver I, 38 LP | 18 | 02/100 | NA
Lord Khaine | Silver III, 91 LP | 30 | 02/100 | EUNE
MathMage | Platinum V, 23 LP | 36 | 00/100 | NA
Mattarias | Bronze V, 80 LP | 5 | 03/100 | NA
McDogual | Bronze III, 58 LP | 39 | 04/100 | NA
Merellis | Placement | 4 | 23/100 | NA
MtgPlayerZach | Silver III, 63 LP | 27 | 09/100 | NA
Nadevoc | Silver II, 31 LP | 20 | 10/100 | NA
NineThePuma | Bronze V, 75 LP | 57 | 72/100 | NA
Olinser | Placement | 0 | 24/100 | NA
Outsideheaven | Platinum V, 0 LP | 68 | 20/100 | NA
Perkinz | Placement | 0 | 08/100 | NA
PersonMan | Silver III, 27 LP | 9 | 31/100 | EU
PhoeKun | Bronze II, 71 LP | 34 | 10/100 | NA
Postmodernist | Bronze III, 53 LP | 63 | 16/100 | NA
Qwertystop | Bronze II, 85 LP | 68 | 28/100 | NA
Recaiden | Silver II, 27 LP | 30 | 34/100 | NA
Renegade Paladin | Silver V, 10 LP | 57 | 14/100 | NA
Sallera | Silver V, 9 LP | 8 | 01/100 | NA
Siosilvar | Bronze II, 83 LP | 14 | 39/100 | NA
SlyGuyMcFly | Silver III, 52 LP | 32 | 11/100 | EUW
Starswords | Silver I, 20 LP | 57 | 31/100 | NA
TechnOkami | Bronze III, 100 LP | 24 | 02/100 | NA
TFT | Diamond V, 87 LP | 754 | Finished | NA
TheShrike | Placement | 1 | 00/100 | NA
WyvernLord | Placement | 0 | 22/100 | NA
Zargodia | Placement | 0 | 00/100 | ?

[/table]
Subscription added and update for The Challenge.

Forrestfire

2013-09-09, 11:02 PM

Posting for a checkmark. Not much else to say.

Antonok

2013-09-09, 11:03 PM

Posting for a checkmark. Not much else to say.

Same, also could I get added to the NA list? Getting close to 30

Nadevoc

2013-09-09, 11:07 PM

Same, also could I get added to the NA list? Getting close to 30

LoL name is the same, right? If so, added.

If not, added incorrectly :-P

Duos

2013-09-09, 11:09 PM

Well, I wound up at 99 LP. So I played one more game.

Sweet
Motherloving
JESUS.

That was like pulling my own teeth sans novocaine. The enemy team had a double AD bot lane (quinn+cait), eve jungle, rumble top, and brand mid. Should be an easy game, right? Well, our thresh fed like seven kills in laning phase and rushed sunfire, and never bought a single ward. He spent the entire game screaming obscenities at the rest of the team and threatening to report us. We managed to claw our way to victory by virtue of some expert zed play, a late-game tristana, and me tanking the **** out of their massive dps, but my lord that thresh was the most unpleasant person I've ever had to play a game with in a very long time.

On the upside, Qualified for a series. Go me.

Recaiden

2013-09-09, 11:17 PM

Congratulations, Duos!

Posting for a checkmark. Not much else to say.

Beep Boop, subscribed.

You guys know you can just hit "Thread Tools" -> "Subscribe to this thread", right?

Silverraptor

2013-09-09, 11:23 PM

Gotta love that new thread smell.

Red Rubber Band

2013-09-09, 11:28 PM

Congratulations, Duos!

You guys know you can just hit "Thread Tools" -> "Subscribe to this thread", right?

Just replying so I'm subscribed to this thread. :smalltongue:

Forrestfire

2013-09-09, 11:32 PM

You guys know you can just hit "Thread Tools" -> "Subscribe to this thread", right?

I did that first. I still wanted the checkmark for when I'm looking down a list and too lazy to hit the User CP button :smalltongue:

Reinboom

2013-09-09, 11:33 PM

Reinboom, since you work on stuff like the shop; I remember Solcrushed saying tech limitations were what delayed the Viktor changes for the addition of green/orange/purple augments. Have you guys worked on that tech at all, is it planned, or is the rework moving in a different direction? Or maybe something else?

There aren't many people with experience modifying item data, so there's a lot of hesitation from tech designers to do so (what most of design relies on to do engineering work). My time was locked away with Undo and New Options Menu, which is finally clearing up, and I'm the "go to" for item stuff. Which means there was a lot of hesitation to do it. Especially since it's a lot of tech for just one champion and you would need to modify four differing systems to perform large changes to item data (Item Shop, Game Server, Data Dragon, Air Client).
Only a handful of engineers has experience in two of those, and I have everything but air client. So... pretty much that's why it was pushed back. Sorry.

Even with that, I really couldn't say much on that specific project. Not because I couldn't give information, but because what information I have may change at any moment.

Nadevoc

2013-09-10, 12:18 AM

Huh. I really didn't think that much of the Undo button 'cause I couldn't really think of an instance I'd needed it, and here less than a week in it's saved one of my ranked games. (Our Jungle Malphite wasn't thinking and grabbed the recommended item, assuming it was Machete).

So thanks, Reinboom. I apologize for not seeing the awesomeness of your feature earlier.

ChaosOS

2013-09-10, 12:22 AM

Godskook

2013-09-10, 12:26 AM

Antonok

2013-09-10, 12:29 AM

LoL name is the same, right? If so, added.

If not, added incorrectly :-P

Its correct.

I've been on a bad losing streak today and then I have this personal first happen.

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g430/Antonok/TimelyWin_zpsa60edcd0.jpg (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/Antonok/media/TimelyWin_zpsa60edcd0.jpg.html)

Felt pretty useless at the start because I wasn't needed to gank so I just counter jungled for the most part.

NineThePuma

2013-09-10, 12:36 AM

Is it possible to trick the client into thinking that multiple instances of an item in the code are the same item in game?

Ie, if double augmented hexcores are the end game, could you just have 6 double augmented hexcores with different build paths, or would that just be bloat?

Godskook

2013-09-10, 12:51 AM

Socratov

2013-09-10, 12:53 AM

wow! dat leona blade! (previous thread). Very amazing!

Krazzman

2013-09-10, 01:31 AM

Anarion

2013-09-10, 01:37 AM

About the shop:

Why do some recommended Items for Champions stuck out as fail?

Tristana for example has AP items as recommended items but should build AD items... or have I been playing tristana wrong?

(Also subscribed :smalltongue:)

The answer is usually that they're old recommendations that have never been updated to match with the current meta or more recent patches.

In Tristana's case, though, she does have two legitimate builds. AP Tristana is dunktastic and can kill things like crazy, although it's hard countered by banshees veil.

AD is the more common role because the long range and attack speed buff on Q make Tristana into a killing machine and she's more valuable as an AD carry so that some other, stronger caster can play mid, but AP Tristana is a viable build on her.

Nadevoc

2013-09-10, 01:41 AM

AP Trist is a thing; she actually has a 3.3 AP ratio total, with 0.8 of that getting a reset on kill/assist.

Some of the champions have alternative builds recommended on Howling Abyss for various reasons, since the game does play quite differently there. Personally I still prefer ADC Trist, Riot's decided to recommend an AP build instead.

Siosilvar

2013-09-10, 01:43 AM

About the shop:

Why do some recommended Items for Champions stuck out as fail?

Tristana for example has AP items as recommended items but should build AD items... or have I been playing tristana wrong?

(Also subscribed :smalltongue:)

Tristana's recommended items are AP on Howling Abyss because she can get resets. It's less common on SR than her AD build because AD is more consistent damage and safer, but on ARAM you can get some serious damage going either way (and AP is somewhat faster to ramp up than AD, which only really hits its stride at 2-3 items).

TFT

2013-09-10, 02:29 AM

Some of you probably know that I've been in a horrible slump recently in solo q. Well...

7 ranked wins in a row. Jumped up a whole division.

Back in the game. :D Maybe I can get back Diamond 2 or Diamond 1 before the end of the season.

(Oh right, and subscribed. I guess that too.)

Reinboom

2013-09-10, 02:50 AM

About the shop:

Why do some recommended Items for Champions stuck out as fail?

Tristana for example has AP items as recommended items but should build AD items... or have I been playing tristana wrong?

(Also subscribed :smalltongue:)

Most of the recommended pages were put in by a very dazed Scar-bro during our Season 2 / Preseason 3 switch, which was a bit of a crunch mode. There are slight costs everywhere from it.
They're steadily being updated - basically as designers notice things are awry.

Thanks for the response. What exactly is the data dragon? I recognize the others, but that system I'm not sure what it does.

Data Dragon is a data service that feeds well-formed game data to the main league website, partner sites, the tribunal, our BI, data collectors, or what have you. It's an effective photo album of snapshots of the game content, where any given patch can be referenced at a moment's notice. It's also a programming library for JavaScript, PHP, and Java.
The JavaScript framework and the service has a publicly accessible QA side to it that can be seen at http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/tool/
This was also my first major project at Riot a couple years ago.

The QA tool hasn't been as well kept up to match the game data behind it sadly. For example, if you click on a champion it will appear to have no rec items when it is simply that Data Dragon has it but the format changed and the QA tool didn't change to match. (Though the website has)

Renegade Paladin

2013-09-10, 05:06 AM

There was a while there when Poppy's recommended items on ARAM included six health pots. :smalltongue:

NineThePuma

2013-09-10, 05:08 AM

Even after the limit of five was added? :P

TechnOkami

2013-09-10, 05:22 AM

Seriously, what the hell?

THIRD recorded pentakill.

AD Thresh.

ARAM.

Did I suddenly just become good or did people just become dumb?

Talesin

2013-09-10, 05:39 AM

Even after the limit of five was added? :P

The problem with a lot of things like this is that overall the game goes through some pretty major changes as season's progresses, especially in season 3. It's a shame that stuff like this can't be coded in to automatically change but honestly I cannot imagine the headache this would cause as a whole.

On a separate note what are people's opinions on Sightstone first on supports? I'd pretty much been against the idea for a long time because I just assumed that Philo stone's regen and GP10 was the be all and end all of early game itemisation.

However recently i've been starting with pure ward starts and going straight into Sightstone on Thresh (I would try it on other supports but i've not been playing much recently) and not picking up Philo. I've gone 2-0, which is anecdotal evidence as far as i'm concerned, but it has allowed me to completely dominate early laning phases by warding brushes and even early buffs.

Also, is Leona considered a counter to Thresh? I've first picked Thresh 4-5 times recently and had Leona locked in on the other team every time. I just find you can absolutely wreck her once she engages and once she starts to run off you've got hook to bring her back for the kill.

Eldariel

2013-09-10, 06:37 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsmbgzOigtM - I found this fairly amusing, and extremely well-done for a live action film.

Tristana's recommended items are AP on Howling Abyss because she can get resets. It's less common on SR than her AD build because AD is more consistent damage and safer, but on ARAM you can get some serious damage going either way (and AP is somewhat faster to ramp up than AD, which only really hits its stride at 2-3 items).

Her AP ratios are certainly reasonable but on ARAM it's a suicide build while AD Trist is one of the strongest mid/lategame characters (I'd almost say THE strongest). You can't catch her, she has ridiculous range and even healing debuff for dueling. Buster Shot + Rocket Jump + Rapid Fire + Passive = nice set.

I'm trying to work my way up with Cass, seems there's very little counters to her during laning phase. I do find that she does get serious mana issues and doesn't do well vs bruiser lane opponents e.g J4, Riven.

Any idea how I can 'win' lanes like those? just afk farm?

It's a matter of play. Maintain your distance, poke at max range, don't let them in before you have ulti. Cass should have the edge on both those lanes so it's really just a matter of not making mistakes; both J4 and Riven punish mechanical mistakes really hard so just play tighter. And get Boots fairly early. Obviously build Zhonya's first (with Tear/Doran's Ring before for mana), and utilize your passive for sustain.

TechnOkami

2013-09-10, 06:44 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsmbgzOigtM - I found this fairly amusing, and extremely well-done for a live action film.

'dat Heimy

Arbitrarity

2013-09-10, 06:59 AM

There aren't many people with experience modifying item data, so there's a lot of hesitation from tech designers to do so (what most of design relies on to do engineering work). My time was locked away with Undo and New Options Menu, which is finally clearing up, and I'm the "go to" for item stuff. Which means there was a lot of hesitation to do it. Especially since it's a lot of tech for just one champion and you would need to modify four differing systems to perform large changes to item data (Item Shop, Game Server, Data Dragon, Air Client).
Only a handful of engineers has experience in two of those, and I have everything but air client. So... pretty much that's why it was pushed back. Sorry.

Even with that, I really couldn't say much on that specific project. Not because I couldn't give information, but because what information I have may change at any moment.

Hm. Technical problems with having an item with multiple build paths, or would you kinda hack that in with "requires red aug and blue aug even though you can't buy the other one"? Or is there just a lot of cruft around adding items in general?

I would've thought you'd use the data dragon to get item data for game client/servers/air client, or at least reference the same files (xml, probably). I guess that would be a TON of refactoring though, if they're in 4 places atm. You'd need to teach each how to read from there, add tags for unusual in-game effects (Viktor is a problem there. You aren't using one-off special exceptions in the server/game client, right?), and then test it pretty thoroughly. And this gives no visible benefits, just nice technical ones. Then you'd only need to modify items in one place, and adding new unique effects in server/game client/xml tags, which would be somewhat less painful.
If you were exceptionally fancy, you might make the descriptions fill in info from elsewhere in the file, but that would probably be a lot of work for saving a single additional number change. If you made them in little scripts (python, probably) that dynamically created an appropriate data file, perhaps. Then updating changes would be "run this script, have the server/clients read in data from this version on startup". I should go look for what you currently do in game client data, if I can find it.

NineThePuma

2013-09-10, 07:00 AM

Red Rubber Band

2013-09-10, 08:14 AM

On a separate note what are people's opinions on Sightstone first on supports? I'd pretty much been against the idea for a long time because I just assumed that Philo stone's regen and GP10 was the be all and end all of early game itemisation.

Philo vs Sightstone (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0prp5pW3iAs)

McDouggal

2013-09-10, 08:27 AM

I personally have found that a skilled thresh will be able to flay her out of her jump and then murder her with his superior CC. On the other hand, an unskilled thresh will panic. The trick to beating Thresh as Leona is to go for the ADC as much as you can, and to establish and early lead and stretch it for as long as you can. But if Thresh gets a lead, Leona's boned.

As the thread's resident Leona main, the lane I have the most trouble with is Thresh. A lot of the matchup comes down to how well you can outposition him.

Most of the trouble comes from the fact that the two counters to Leona laning phase are disengage and ranged harass. Most supports have one of these; Thresh has both. Then you add in his Q, and you have Leona's worst matchup; it's someone who can knock you off his AD, then turn on your AD.

The trick is to wait for Thresh to use his grab OR his flay to no effect, then go in when it's on CD. It's important to learn when the enemy spells are on or off cooldown; as Leona, one spell makes a world of difference between dying or getting a double kill.

In ranked, I have versed a Janna support on the other team 5 times. 4 of those, I won the lane, and won it hard. The fifth one went to a draw; their jungler wouldn't leave botlane EVER or I probably would've won that one too. This is supposedly Leona's hardest counter, but it's actually very easy to handle; wait until she uses her Q. Go in when it's off CD. Bonus if her shield is on CD. All it will take is one won engagement to swing a bad lane in your favor.

Recaiden

2013-09-10, 08:28 AM

(Viktor is a problem there. You aren't using one-off special exceptions in the server/game client, right?)

Vayne, Lucian, and Rengar have one-off special exceptions in-game. Possibly others as well.

Olinser

2013-09-10, 08:47 AM

The problem with a lot of things like this is that overall the game goes through some pretty major changes as season's progresses, especially in season 3. It's a shame that stuff like this can't be coded in to automatically change but honestly I cannot imagine the headache this would cause as a whole.

On a separate note what are people's opinions on Sightstone first on supports? I'd pretty much been against the idea for a long time because I just assumed that Philo stone's regen and GP10 was the be all and end all of early game itemisation.

However recently i've been starting with pure ward starts and going straight into Sightstone on Thresh (I would try it on other supports but i've not been playing much recently) and not picking up Philo. I've gone 2-0, which is anecdotal evidence as far as i'm concerned, but it has allowed me to completely dominate early laning phases by warding brushes and even early buffs.

Also, is Leona considered a counter to Thresh? I've first picked Thresh 4-5 times recently and had Leona locked in on the other team every time. I just find you can absolutely wreck her once she engages and once she starts to run off you've got hook to bring her back for the kill.

What tier are you in? Leona support kind of seems like its 'in' now around the Silver/Gold tier - I swear half of the games I am in they have a Leona support, while I have seen exactly ONE Janna and zero Lulu in the last 30 games.

Leona counters Thresh hard only if they are willing to all-in at level 1-3 the second he misses a hook (or hooks Leona in). Thresh has very little damage until he puts a couple ranks into Flay and collects some souls, if Leona and her AD dive onto Thresh's AD at level 2 there's not very much Thresh can do about it if he missed his hook.

If Leona + AD are willing to all-in and drive the other AD out of lane at level 2, then immediately all-in them again as soon as they come back, the lane will snowball out of control as the other AD will be far behind in both exp and gold.

If Leona waits until level 4 or 5 to try their first all-in, then the Thresh side will murder her with superior CC and lantern escapes.

Nadevoc

2013-09-10, 09:00 AM

Also, is Leona considered a counter to Thresh? I've first picked Thresh 4-5 times recently and had Leona locked in on the other team every time. I just find you can absolutely wreck her once she engages and once she starts to run off you've got hook to bring her back for the kill.

I like Leona against Thresh in large part because she's one of the few supports who can generally weather being hooked relatively well. Thresh is much more varied, and the Leona pair will struggle if they fall behind, but that's kind of how Leona lanes work in general.

In ranked, I have versed a Janna support on the other team 5 times. 4 of those, I won the lane, and won it hard. The fifth one went to a draw; their jungler wouldn't leave botlane EVER or I probably would've won that one too. This is supposedly Leona's hardest counter, but it's actually very easy to handle; wait until she uses her Q. Go in when it's off CD. Bonus if her shield is on CD. All it will take is one won engagement to swing a bad lane in your favor.

Janna's a hard counter to Leona at higher MMR and only if you have excellent twitch reflexes; from what I've read, what makes her such a counter is that she can knock Leona out of her E by tossing tornado. Frankly, this sounds like her being easy to deal with because the enemy is playing her wrong; Janna shouldn't be throwing tornadoes in that matchup, but saving them. Tornado is her big disengage, and against Leona (who's all about engage), saving your disengage is HUGE. Definitely worth more than any poke you're going to get out of it.

If Leona + AD are willing to all-in and drive the other AD out of lane at level 2, then immediately all-in them again as soon as they come back, the lane will snowball out of control as the other AD will be far behind in both exp and gold.

If Leona waits until level 4 or 5 to try their first all-in, then the Thresh side will murder her with superior CC and lantern escapes.

This basically reads to me as "If Leona is played how you're supposed to play her, she'll wreck. Otherwise she'll get murdered."

Leona wants to all-in at level 2-3 as soon as she gets an opportunity basically every matchup. She kind of depends on snowballing the lane because she's an all-in support. On top of that, the double AA reset on her Q is absolutely brutal in the earliest levels then falls off.

Olinser

2013-09-10, 09:46 AM

I like Leona against Thresh in large part because she's one of the few supports who can generally weather being hooked relatively well. Thresh is much more varied, and the Leona pair will struggle if they fall behind, but that's kind of how Leona lanes work in general.

Janna's a hard counter to Leona at higher MMR and only if you have excellent twitch reflexes; from what I've read, what makes her such a counter is that she can knock Leona out of her E by tossing tornado. Frankly, this sounds like her being easy to deal with because the enemy is playing her wrong; Janna shouldn't be throwing tornadoes in that matchup, but saving them. Tornado is her big disengage, and against Leona (who's all about engage), saving your disengage is HUGE. Definitely worth more than any poke you're going to get out of it.

This basically reads to me as "If Leona is played how you're supposed to play her, she'll wreck. Otherwise she'll get murdered."

Leona wants to all-in at level 2-3 as soon as she gets an opportunity basically every matchup. She kind of depends on snowballing the lane because she's an all-in support. On top of that, the double AA reset on her Q is absolutely brutal in the earliest levels then falls off.

Absolutely.

But that's the reason I don't play Leona in solo Q. Because about half the time a Leona leaps all-in, the AD doesn't follow (or doesn't react quickly enough). Then Leona dies, then the AD probably gets tossed out of lane.

It's the same reason I don't try lantern-hooks on Thresh, where you drop a lantern then hook yourself into a group. Ideally the tank takes the lantern and leaps after you (preferably somebody like Nasus). What ACTUALLY happens is that you jump into the group, and the tank hangs out while you die.

Talesin

2013-09-10, 09:47 AM

What tier are you in? Leona support kind of seems like its 'in' now around the Silver/Gold tier - I swear half of the games I am in they have a Leona support, while I have seen exactly ONE Janna and zero Lulu in the last 30 games.

Yep i'm in Gold. Leona is actually in at the moment but I feel that a lot of people don't understand her like most of the people in this thread have mentioned.

In one of the match ups the Leona did all in us at level 2 and caused us many problems. However at level 4 she went all in again on Corki, who just had time to valk her far enough under the turret that I could keep her there long enough to kill her. From that point on I had my AD carry at 6 0 2 16 minutes in.

Leona counters Thresh hard only if they are willing to all-in at level 1-3 the second he misses a hook (or hooks Leona in). Thresh has very little damage until he puts a couple ranks into Flay and collects some souls, if Leona and her AD dive onto Thresh's AD at level 2 there's not very much Thresh can do about it if he missed his hook.

This is actually quite interesting because I'm actually quite a cautious Blitz/Thresh player in that I'm not just shooting hooks out looking for lucky grabs. I tend to use the threat of a grab as the biggest incentive to stop someone CSing and then grabbing them when they make a mistake.

I'll keep an eye out for the level 2-3 aggression and then again at level 6.

Winthur

2013-09-10, 10:14 AM

Most of the trouble comes from the fact that the two counters to Leona laning phase are disengage and ranged harass. Most supports have one of these; Thresh has both. Then you add in his Q, and you have Leona's worst matchup; it's someone who can knock you off his AD, then turn on your AD.

The trick is to wait for Thresh to use his grab OR his flay to no effect, then go in when it's on CD. It's important to learn when the enemy spells are on or off cooldown; as Leona, one spell makes a world of difference between dying or getting a double kill.

2 cents:

While this helps, it also kind of relegates you into a rather passive matchup and might strip you off some good occasions to kill people, because you're actually just waiting for the Thresh to be stupid, and Leona's window of opportunity is around level 3, 5 and 6 mostly, and her kit lends herself to playing aggressive; staying in the back makes Leona counterintuitive as a pick and she doesn't do well against autoattack poke that Thresh can exert if left alone.

Good Threshes will shake you off with Flay, sure; thus, you should do two things: keep brush control as much as possible (with auto->Q->auto combo you can kill wards if they get placed next to you, and you should keep pinks for lane control anyway) and try to be less predictable in engages. Sure, Thresh can Flay; can he do that if he gets Solar Flare centered on him? Can he react feasibly if you use Flash to gap close to your target and instantly Q, and if he Flays, only then follow up with Zenith Blade? Can he actually survive if you decide to burst him down as soon as he makes a wrong step (though, can you survive while focusing a support instead of the carry? Sometimes you can!)

In ranked, I have versed a Janna support on the other team 5 times. 4 of those, I won the lane, and won it hard. The fifth one went to a draw; their jungler wouldn't leave botlane EVER or I probably would've won that one too. This is supposedly Leona's hardest counter, but it's actually very easy to handle; wait until she uses her Q. Go in when it's off CD. Bonus if her shield is on CD. All it will take is one won engagement to swing a bad lane in your favor.

Once again - Janna does counter Leona, except she has to put in way more work than Leona to be a counter; Howling Gale is a delayed spell that has some non-superficial travel time, and takes a bit of proper timing to shake off a Zenith Blade initiation, not to mention that you have to keep a specific position with your AD carry. That, and Leona can just use Solar Flare on Janna and if Janna doesn't move out of the way she's toast unless she manages to regain consciousness (keeping in mind that there's an E->Q combo incoming) quick enough to cast Monsoon.

Also, Jannas will not use their Q to harass and you can't count on it being off cooldown especially in a match up like this. Q is offensively used to punish bad positioning - if your AD gets in a bad situation, gets hit with Zephyr, a Gale, and a few autos, you aren't that great at peeling at that time unless the enemy overextends in turn and lets you Solar Flare and turn the tides for a good all-in. For every other use, Janna should save Q just to prevent all-ins from destroying her AD carry. Keeping that in mind makes the matchup so much more tricky and annoying for Leona.

Level 1 Janna vs Leona - Janna puts a little ward in the brush and whenever Leona is anywhere close Janna can just use Eye of the Storm and sneak in autoattacks and Leona backs off or takes chip damage. At level 2, Janna learns Howling Gale which nullifies the E->Q combo allowing her to keep doing that thing. At level 3 and on, the threat of Eclipse comes into play -- and that's where Leona's able to get an edge.

Though yes, Leona is among the supports that might suck and then they can get off a perfect initiation or something and be back up again, along with Thresh, Blitz and so on.

Basically any champions that can disengage you like Ali, Thresh, Janna can be dealt with if you try to surprise them (Flash->Q can be good if you know the time is right to all-in; brush control is important, make sure the enemy can't see you; also remember the Solar Flare, once it hits you've a certain amount of freedom of movement and it forces the enemy to react, and quick.)

Also honestly best Leona counter in the lane is Alistar. Any time you trade, Alistar can heal; Alistar can just headbutt you away and ruin everything; trying to focus Alistar himself is pointless when he has ult; and Alistar does roughly the same things she does with less damage but more sustain and better disengage (Alistar is amazing at peeling). Overall, Janna counters Leona throughout the game, I feel, because Janna can just reset a teamfight and prevent hard initiatiors from doing their job, while other peels tend to cover much less scope.

Also honestly I'd rather face a Thresh over a Lulu in bot lane as Leona.

Cogwheel

2013-09-10, 11:10 AM

Huh, Lucian is... not as neat as I had hoped. I feel like I'd like him a lot better if he didn't feel so generally clunky and sluggish in all that he does. Pity.

I would say "there's still Twitch", but Riot sure did a number on him lately, so I don't know. Kog'Maw, maybe? When I pretend I can play him? Good thing I was never too attached to the ADC role.

ex cathedra

2013-09-10, 11:12 AM

The expunge nerf wasn't too bad, Twitch is still fine. Ez/Corki/Vayne/Cait/Ashe/Twitch/Varus are all solid.

Cogwheel

2013-09-10, 11:26 AM

The expunge nerf wasn't too bad, Twitch is still fine. Ez/Corki/Vayne/Cait/Ashe/Twitch/Varus are all solid.

Oh, I wasn't claiming that all ADCs were bad, only that the ones I like and can play even remotely well aren't what they used to be. Maybe I'm overreacting, but it does feel like the Expunge nerf really just smashes his early game in with a brick.

That said, I'll take your word for it.

Socratov

2013-09-10, 11:28 AM

I like Leona against Thresh in large part because she's one of the few supports who can generally weather being hooked relatively well. Thresh is much more varied, and the Leona pair will struggle if they fall behind, but that's kind of how Leona lanes work in general.

Janna's a hard counter to Leona at higher MMR and only if you have excellent twitch reflexes; from what I've read, what makes her such a counter is that she can knock Leona out of her E by tossing tornado. Frankly, this sounds like her being easy to deal with because the enemy is playing her wrong; Janna shouldn't be throwing tornadoes in that matchup, but saving them. Tornado is her big disengage, and against Leona (who's all about engage), saving your disengage is HUGE. Definitely worth more than any poke you're going to get out of it.

This basically reads to me as "If Leona is played how you're supposed to play her, she'll wreck. Otherwise she'll get murdered."

Leona wants to all-in at level 2-3 as soon as she gets an opportunity basically every matchup. She kind of depends on snowballing the lane because she's an all-in support. On top of that, the double AA reset on her Q is absolutely brutal in the earliest levels then falls off.

Infinte sustain soraka would like a word with you. Heal+silence make for a deadly counter...the dive depends on factors like position mana, cooldowns (know thyne enemy) and early game power of your carry.

PersonMan

2013-09-10, 11:31 AM

I would say "there's still Twitch", but Riot sure did a number on him lately, so I don't know.

They made his Expunge burst less powerful, but honestly all that does is lower his early game burst. Late game you aren't Expunging for damage anyways and early game, 3-5 stacks of your passive still wreck people. Cask + Auto + Expunge is still over 200 damage pre-resists and not easy to respond to.

Eldariel

2013-09-10, 12:04 PM

The expunge nerf wasn't too bad, Twitch is still fine. Ez/Corki/Vayne/Cait/Ashe/Twitch/Varus are all solid.

You forgot Tristana, and I posit that Kog'Maw is solid too most of the time. Urgot as well if you count him as a "carry", though he's much more situational (as always with lane dominance champions).

Nadevoc

2013-09-10, 12:18 PM

Infinte sustain soraka would like a word with you. Heal+silence make for a deadly counter...the dive depends on factors like position mana, cooldowns (know thyne enemy) and early game power of your carry.

First off, I can't find any way this response relates to ANYTHING in my post, so I'm really confused about what you're getting at. Seriously. Nowhere did I mention match ups, Soraka, or claim who could or couldn't deal with Leona beyond Janna and Thresh.

Secondly, I'll take Leona into Raka gladly. If nothing else, I should be able to stun lock you into death at 6 with my ult for free kills. It seems that EVERY time ANY support comes up you claim Soraka wins the match up hard for some reason. This isn't even one of her better match ups in my mind (though better than, say, Blitz or Thresh).

Cogwheel

2013-09-10, 12:33 PM

You forgot Tristana, and I posit that Kog'Maw is solid too most of the time. Urgot as well if you count him as a "carry", though he's much more situational (as always with lane dominance champions).

I do love playing Urgot - the fact that no one has the faintest idea of what to do about him only helps this - but I agree that he's scarcely a conventional carry.

I wasn't trying to argue that Kog is bad, per se. The issue in that particular case is that I personally am a rather dreadful Kog'Maw player.

Lix Lorn

2013-09-10, 12:35 PM

So, this is a thing that got made, in case people haven't been looking at the Riot website. Leona fans will be pretty happy I think.

Leona's Zenith Blade (http://beta.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/community/community-programs/man-arms-forges-zenith-blade)
I
ahhhh
excuse me I need to change my underwear now

TFT

2013-09-10, 01:00 PM

My absolute favorite lane to play is as janna against leona, because it's such an easy lane, even if you aren't 100% perfect on stopping leona e. All of janna's kit just counters leona's so perfectly.

I haven't lost that lane since I was in gold. It's been a while. :smallamused:

Wolf_Haley

2013-09-10, 01:08 PM

Man I understand why their doing it, but I'm hella sad I probably won't ever get Victorious Elilse, one of my favorite champs and I'm not getting it at this rate.

Thomas Cardew

2013-09-10, 02:26 PM

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2013/09/99-pbe-update-2.html

That Draven Skin... I... I'm not sure I want to play this game anymore.

McDouggal

2013-09-10, 02:56 PM

Infinte sustain soraka would like a word with you. Heal+silence make for a deadly counter...the dive depends on factors like position mana, cooldowns (know thyne enemy) and early game power of your carry.

Are we talking about Leona here?

If a Soraka is picked vs. Leona, you have a support with no hard CC, a short ranged auto, no mobility, mana sustain OR a silence and a long CD heal and armor buff vs. 1.5-2.5 seconds of lockdown on top of stupid tanky. If Soraka manages to heal the target before the burst is dropped (not a given), then you switch to the non-armor buffed one. If she didn't... then the original target is dead. Heal on CD from earlier? Oh look, double kill.

This lane is one of Soraka's worst matchups.

How botlane matchups generally work:

Sustain beats Poke
Poke beats all-in
all-in beats sustain.

Please note that this is in general. I am in no way saying that Caitlyn/Nidalee is automatically going to lose to X/Soraka.

Socratov

2013-09-10, 03:03 PM

First off, I can't find any way this response relates to ANYTHING in my post, so I'm really confused about what you're getting at. Seriously. Nowhere did I mention match ups, Soraka, or claim who could or couldn't deal with Leona beyond Janna and Thresh.

Secondly, I'll take Leona into Raka gladly. If nothing else, I should be able to stun lock you into death at 6 with my ult for free kills. It seems that EVERY time ANY support comes up you claim Soraka wins the match up hard for some reason. This isn't even one of her better match ups in my mind (though better than, say, Blitz or Thresh).

well, it was a reaction to nothing beating an agressive tresh or lvl 2-3 leona diving... (especially tresh vs Leona)

Forrestfire

2013-09-10, 03:07 PM

well, it was a reaction to nothing beating an agressive tresh or lvl 2-3 leona diving... (especially tresh vs Leona)

Saying that Soraka does is extremely wrong though, so there's that.

Winthur

2013-09-10, 03:17 PM

well, it was a reaction to nothing beating an agressive tresh or lvl 2-3 leona diving... (especially tresh vs Leona)

Except Thresh, Leona, and any other support have the best chance of defeating Soraka at levels from 1 to 3 or even to 5, when her heal is terrible.

It's when her Astral Blessing is maxed out when she actually can force you out of lane through sheer persistence and healing.

Soraka's early game is either level 1 Starcall cheese or a painful climb to level 5-6. Oh, and maybe the 16 magic resist can prove useful to negate some of the damage from supports. Otherwise though, she's pretty bad early on. Doubly so if the support has Ignite.

Anarion

2013-09-10, 03:22 PM

It's the same reason I don't try lantern-hooks on Thresh, where you drop a lantern then hook yourself into a group. Ideally the tank takes the lantern and leaps after you (preferably somebody like Nasus). What ACTUALLY happens is that you jump into the group, and the tank hangs out while you die.

There's probably a more general lesson here about relying on teammates. If you want to execute a plan that relies on somebody else doing a specific thing or else you'll die, you need to tell them in chat or, at the very least, ping repeatedly to make clear that you're going in.

And if you're playing at a mid silver or lower level where you honestly can't rely on people knowing their champions well enough to trust a plan like a Thresh lantern grab, it's better to avoid it and instead focus on things like landing clutch hooks and boxes.

You forgot Tristana, and I posit that Kog'Maw is solid too most of the time. Urgot as well if you count him as a "carry", though he's much more situational (as always with lane dominance champions).

I think Kog'Maw has an issue in mid to low levels because he's got no escapes and people aren't good about freezing lanes or peeling for you in low to mid level play. I've played Kog'Maw with a Janna in mid Silver who kept tornadoing the wave and essentially zoning our own team because it wasn't safe to push all the way to the enemy tower.

Socratov

2013-09-10, 03:49 PM

Saying that Soraka does is extremely wrong though, so there's that.

Except Thresh, Leona, and any other support have the best chance of defeating Soraka at levels from 1 to 3 or even to 5, when her heal is terrible.

It's when her Astral Blessing is maxed out when she actually can force you out of lane through sheer persistence and healing.

Soraka's early game is either level 1 Starcall cheese or a painful climb to level 5-6. Oh, and maybe the 16 magic resist can prove useful to negate some of the damage from supports. Otherwise though, she's pretty bad early on. Doubly so if the support has Ignite.

supports running ignite are freakishly rare (favoring exhaust), so that's a first thing, then, there is the fact that any sorakaplayer worth his/her salt goes ult>heal>silence>starcall

Seriously you have absolutely no business as a soraka to take starcall early on, too much push, too much screwing your carry over with last hits.

and anytime someone gets funny ideas you verbally kick your carry back to the tower and simultaneously silence anyone close enough to care for a taste. that and decent warding (not to mention spamming heal) makes sure you win lanes through inaction and let your carry farm. The only thing to screw over soraka lanes is excessive pushing denieing the carry his last hits. The only propblem in botlanes is noone sees tell-tale signs of people initating if they don't know what they are up against...

This may be me, but I have no problems against tresh and leona as long as my carry has half a braincell to spare

Renegade Paladin

2013-09-10, 03:51 PM

Even after the limit of five was added? :P
The limit was added before Howling Abyss, so yes. :smalltongue:

Legoshrimp

2013-09-10, 03:51 PM

supports running ignite are freakishly rare (favoring exhaust), so that's a first thing, then, there is the fact that any sorakaplayer worth his/her salt goes ult>heal>silence>starcall

Seriously you have absolutely no business as a soraka to take starcall early on, too much push, too much screwing your carry over with last hits.

and anytime someone gets funny ideas you verbally kick your carry back to the tower and simultaneously silence anyone close enough to care for a taste. that and decent warding (not to mention spamming heal) makes sure you win lanes through inaction and let your carry farm. The only thing to screw over soraka lanes is excessive pushing denieing the carry his last hits. The only propblem in botlanes is noone sees tell-tale signs of people initating if they don't know what they are up against...

This may be me, but I have no problems against tresh and leona as long as my carry has half a braincell to spare

It's probably because the thresh/leona hasn't played vs a soraka in 500 games.

brutii

2013-09-10, 03:53 PM

If you have an ADC player in mind, I'm a terrible Leona who happens to know a decent ADC I have good synergy with.

mrcarter11

2013-09-10, 03:59 PM

Point awarded to Lego for that one. Raka is a rare support to see. One who Riot I think has mentioned several times that they aren't happy with. They don't like how she plays. But your silence is useful sure, but I really don't see you winning with her early game. At level 2, a blitz or thresh outranges your silence, they pull you in and you start burning your spells to save yourself, or you die. Raka isn't that strong, and maybe you have some luck with her sure, but past your personal experience she really isn't mate.

EDIT: I mean assuming we are all about equal level, I'll gladly play with a buddy of mine who is on currently as his support, if you can find yourself an adc of equal elo-ness

Merellis

2013-09-10, 04:01 PM

It's probably because the thresh/leona hasn't played vs a soraka in 500 games.

What's a Soraka? :smallconfused: This some kind of fancy new item?

Eldariel

2013-09-10, 04:23 PM

Wow. A year and a half after I won it, Riot finally added Triumphant Ryze to my account. About. Damn. Time.

Thomas Cardew

2013-09-10, 04:55 PM

So huh, anecdotal evidence and all that but I think these are at least slightly relevant to the Leona thresh counter discussion.
http://imageshack.com/a/img580/747/9lli.png

http://imageshack.com/a/img594/3787/d487.png

Nadevoc

2013-09-10, 05:26 PM

well, it was a reaction to nothing beating an agressive tresh or lvl 2-3 leona diving... (especially tresh vs Leona)

I never claimed nothing beat Thresh or Leona? You clearly misread something.

That said, Soraka generally DOESN'T beat Leona's level two dive.

Really, Soraka's power is inversely related to your opponent's skill. That's true to some extent for all champions, but particularly with Soraka. She has no inherent play making ability; she basically relies on her opponents underestimating her sustain or (in the case of her ult) forgetting she's in the game.

Raka is a rare support to see. One who Riot I think has mentioned several times that they aren't happy with. They don't like how she plays.

Indeed. Here's a thread where Morello talks about her within the past day, basically saying he intends to keep her numbers tweaked towards the weak end until they figure out what to do with her:

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=41405177#41405177

To quote the final Riot post, from Xelnath:

"And this is exactly why we've elected to leave Soraka as non-competitive for right now. She can't be competitive and maintain the mechanics she has now. (see the 99 Morello posts above mine for details)"

Nerocite

2013-09-10, 06:20 PM

Summer skins are finally out! Loving the Graves, not so much on the others.

Socratov

2013-09-10, 06:42 PM

I never claimed nothing beat Thresh or Leona? You clearly misread something.

That said, Soraka generally DOESN'T beat Leona's level two dive.
Well, that said, if you are called bvefore you can silence her, yeah, you are righty tightied into deathtimers. However, if you use your head, ward brushes (support 101), use stun before she reaches you. fighting Leona is using your head. Her E has a castingtime (about half a second) and a nice simple animation. Soraka's E is instant one in range. Use your head and you can outthink Leona. Blitz (I saw him mentioned earlier I think) the same: keep between minions and ward the brush, stay moving, standard stuff. If Leona wants to hit she needs to get in close, guess where she hasn't built items for yet? Right. Lvl 5-6 is the problem. Then she is really dangerous, but lvl 2-3 is nothing yet.

Really, Soraka's power is inversely related to your opponent's skill. That's true to some extent for all champions, but particularly with Soraka. She has no inherent play making ability; she basically relies on her opponents underestimating her sustain or (in the case of her ult) forgetting she's in the game.

Or (end game) that she reduces your MR into the single digits, Or that she can silence you for a far too long time to be comfrotable. And this is true for especially supports: Sona? Wait for the ultimate, rest is icing on the cake, but not that nesccessary. Blitz/Tresh: pull, (if they can land it). Zyra: Ult/snare. Now, the only actual useful support always is Elise. She has the ability to splitpush.

Indeed. Here's a thread where Morello talks about her within the past day, basically saying he intends to keep her numbers tweaked towards the weak end until they figure out what to do with her:

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=41405177#41405177

To quote the final Riot post, from Xelnath:

"And this is exactly why we've elected to leave Soraka as non-competitive for right now. She can't be competitive and maintain the mechanics she has now. (see the 99 Morello posts above mine for details)"

It's true. That is because (and this discussion has gone on for about 2 years now) Riot can't marry the concept of dedicated healer with how they envision their game to be. Another problem is the fact that they can't just remove Soraka from the game without giving people something back for it since people have paid for it. And third (this is more of a frustration) the playerbase actually love Soraka's healiness. Personally I'd throw Starcall away completely (useless anyway unless you have gone warmogs+ every other tank item ever) and put something else in it's way. I'd turn blessing into a 5sec shield+ current armor buff and kick up the ult in numbers. Now she has her defining feature (healing) which actually would be awesome in teamplay and encourage more baiting, she has the whole protect carry schtick, her defining E and no more early game reset of lane. (and maybe her Q non damage debuff or something.) Though I seem to have misplaced my account details on the NA site :smallamused:

Nadevoc

2013-09-10, 06:58 PM

Well, that said, if you are called bvefore you can silence her, yeah, you are righty tightied into deathtimers. However, if you use your head, ward brushes (support 101), use stun before she reaches you. fighting Leona is using your head. Her E has a castingtime (about half a second) and a nice simple animation. Soraka's E is instant one in range. Use your head and you can outthink Leona. Blitz (I saw him mentioned earlier I think) the same: keep between minions and ward the brush, stay moving, standard stuff. If Leona wants to hit she needs to get in close, guess where she hasn't built items for yet? Right. Lvl 5-6 is the problem. Then she is really dangerous, but lvl 2-3 is nothing yet.

First off, keep in mind that Leona will force you to burn two wards to get one into the bush.

Once your Infuse is on CD, that's 8.5 seconds during which you are either zoned or I am jumping on you or your ADC. Particularly at three, I'm going to do that. Leona doesn't NEED her items. Her kit has what she needs. And as I said, if I have to wait 'til 6? That's fine. I can wait a bit for my free kills if I have to.

With Blitz, the issue is that he just needs one good pull.

Or (end game) that she reduces your MR into the single digits, Or that she can silence you for a far too long time to be comfrotable. And this is true for especially supports: Sona? Wait for the ultimate, rest is icing on the cake, but not that nesccessary. Blitz/Tresh: pull, (if they can land it). Zyra: Ult/snare. Now, the only actual useful support always is Elise. She has the ability to splitpush.

You hold up the silence as being hugely dangerous, but she's got to compete with the CC that other supports bring... and they pretty much all bring hard CC. Sona and Zyra bring AoE stun/knockup and slow/damage reduction or snare/slow respectively. Leona brings a bunch of stuns and roots. Blitz brings pull, silence, and highly spammable knockup. The silence is nice, but it's seriously, SERIOUSLY weak in terms of a support's CC.

Yeah, she shreds your MR, but takes a bit of time to become significant and isn't terribly long range. Combine that with the utter squishiness of Soraka, and it's not that great. It takes any damage dealer about two seconds to take her out, collect the gold, and move on.

It's true. That is because (and this discussion has gone on for about 2 years now) Riot can't marry the concept of dedicated healer with how they envision their game to be. Another problem is the fact that they can't just remove Soraka from the game without giving people something back for it since people have paid for it. And third (this is more of a frustration) the playerbase actually love Soraka's healiness. Personally I'd throw Starcall away completely (useless anyway unless you have gone warmogs+ every other tank item ever) and put something else in it's way. I'd turn blessing into a 5sec shield+ current armor buff and kick up the ult in numbers. Now she has her defining feature (healing) which actually would be awesome in teamplay and encourage more baiting, she has the whole protect carry schtick, her defining E and no more early game reset of lane. (and maybe her Q non damage debuff or something.) Though I seem to have misplaced my account details on the NA site :smallamused:

When you say 'the player base actually loves Soraka's healiness', you have to realize that that's NOT the entirety of the player base. In fact, every time throughout League's history that Soraka's numbers have been high enough to make her really good, she's been THE most complained about champion. Players in general HATE dealing with a champion that's designed solely to prevent any plays from happening through healing, and historical feedback has shown this. Pure healers are great in PvE, but they really aren't great design in purely PvP games.

Godskook

2013-09-10, 06:59 PM

Infinte sustain soraka would like a word with you. Heal+silence make for a deadly counter...the dive depends on factors like position mana, cooldowns (know thyne enemy) and early game power of your carry.

1.Infinite sustain Soraka is gone man. Just let her go.

2.Soraka's W heal is on part with other support heals. Sona has slightly worse healing per second and almost exactly the same healing per mana(important on a support's income), but Sona can AoE CC a team, provides choice of (burst/slow/damage reduction), and just generally be relevant in situations outside healing her ADC and silencing a DPS Mage(the only class that really cares about silences).

3.Nothing in Soraka's kit stops an all-in. *NOTHING* It can swing a close fight, but not every fight in bot lane is close. If you want a disengage support, go learn to play Janna, that's what she does best.

supports running ignite are freakishly rare (favoring exhaust), so that's a first thing, then, there is the fact that any sorakaplayer worth his/her salt goes ult>heal>silence>starcall

Its actually becoming common in solo queue ranked, these days, at least at my level, to see a support grab ignite. I'm not sure I agree with it, but its common enough that calling it "freakishly rare" means you're really not aware of it.

Additionally, some ADCs have methods to reduce healing in their kits, including Varus, Miss Fortune, and Tristana.

Seriously you have absolutely no business as a soraka to take starcall early on, too much push, too much screwing your carry over with last hits.

Which was kinda his point.

and anytime someone gets funny ideas you verbally kick your carry back to the tower and simultaneously silence anyone close enough to care for a taste. that and decent warding (not to mention spamming heal) makes sure you win lanes through inaction and let your carry farm. The only thing to screw over soraka lanes is excessive pushing denieing the carry his last hits. The only propblem in botlanes is noone sees tell-tale signs of people initating if they don't know what they are up against...

You can't silence Leona if she jumps your carry. Her W is already up, she can have her Q up before she goes in, and she's already used her E(and probably her R). Silencing her after that does -nothing- to stop her ADC from murdering yours. You can't silence Blitz after a good hook because he's over 1k units away from you. Thresh, you can silence, but that doesn't stop lantern, so the jungler he dragged along is now on top of your carry, what do?

This may be me, but I have no problems against tresh and leona as long as my carry has half a braincell to spare

Its probably just you, man. I mean, a good Soraka player can make it work for a long time, but you're fighting an uphill battle against supports that are just better at what they do than she is.

Laudandus

2013-09-10, 08:48 PM

Last time Soraka was good, I stopped maining ad carry.

Bethor it is worth noting that silence is actually very good vs assassins and her heal gives a massive and very useful armor buff, but all that means is that she's much worse than Sona, not strictly worse. Soraka matchups are almost all just farm lanes where Soraka gets outscaled, except actually Soraka can't even farm right. She's probably okay vs the defensive/bad supports (Janna/Alistar, respectively) except that she gets outscaled really really badly by them.

Remember that when evaluating your personal experience of a champion, Socratov, you are weighing experience that is both low-level (I'm guessing, based on your opinion on Soraka) and extremely biased - low-level people don't do well against champions they haven't seen much, especially champions they haven't seen much that play differently from most champions.

Anarion

2013-09-10, 09:18 PM

As a further point about Soraka, I tend to dread playing with her in soloqueue if I see the support pick her. I always watch them die and then they type something in chat like "My heal was gonna be back up in 2 more seconds."

If the person didn't have the heal for two seconds, why was he in range of being killed?!

Mabn

2013-09-10, 10:49 PM

as an addendum to this discusion I will note that Soraka is both strong and fun in the Domminion and TT games I have encountered or played her (in ARAM she's exactly as broken as everyone else with a heal). This leads me to suspect that she may have Karma syndrome where her design is fine but she isn't and can not be a bot lane gold-less support. Mid lane she's a fairly strong bully who scales pretty well.

Thomas Cardew

2013-09-10, 11:05 PM

Dominion and Twisted Treeline both have enhanced mana regen, that really allows her to spam her spells. And didn't we have a discussion about mid lane Sona in the last 10 or so pages on the old thread?

EDIT: Read Sona for some strange reason, scratch that part. But the point about enhance mana regen still stands. Plus given the rampant nature of bruiser on 3v3 the armor buff on her heal is going to be REALLY good.

Mabn

2013-09-11, 12:25 AM

mana is and issue in mid, I really wish her e was just a silence that gave her passive mana regen when leveled sometimes. Nevertheless itemizing mana on ap casters is really good right now so it mostly just stops her from shutting down her opponent before ~ level 5 when she can get a chalice or tear.

Winthur

2013-09-11, 12:38 AM

(I meant to send this post a good 6 hours ago but, alas, internet managed to die right before I hit Submit Reply, so I went to sleep. So now it has responses to additional comments on the matter)

supports running ignite are freakishly rare (favoring exhaust), so that's a first thing, then, there is the fact that any sorakaplayer worth his/her salt goes ult>heal>silence>starcall
Seriously you have absolutely no business as a soraka to take starcall early on, too much push, too much screwing your carry over with last hits.

Ignite is picked very often when
1) you want to snowball because it grants more kill potential than Exhaust
2) you see a heavy sustain support / a troubling sustain champion in any lane in Draft mode
3) you don't necessarily need Exhaust (Draft mode or team comp)
You see it quite a lot in pro matches.

Starcall at level 1 yields hilarious results especially with something like Doran's Shield as a starting item. It's some enormous cheese and I never even implied it's a "mainstream" strategy, but it has the potential to do some massive level 1 damage and pressure. It can work on people who seek all-ins at early levels who underestimate it's damage. It has a funny synergy with Barrier (that people don't normally pick on supports). It's something I threw out there as a possible solution to Soraka's bad level 1.

and anytime someone gets funny ideas you verbally kick your carry back to the tower and simultaneously silence anyone close enough to care for a taste.

Blitzcrank / Thresh hooks your AD carry, Leona initiates on you. Your silence lasts 1.5 seconds and you don't max it first. It doesn't even stop anyone, they can just keep following and apply that CC anyway. It gives time to Flash or dash away maybe. You still are forced to back off as soon as possible and can continue to take free damage. Silence doesn't even stop stuff like Thresh's empowered autoattacks.

and decent warding (not to mention spamming heal) makes sure you win lanes through inaction and let your carry farm. The only thing to screw over soraka lanes is excessive pushing denieing the carry his last hits. The only propblem in botlanes is noone sees tell-tale signs of people initating if they don't know what they are up against...

Decent warding and using your skills is how every other freaking support wins lanes. Soraka just has way less ways to do anything because she has no good peel, no initiation whatsoever, her amount of poke rivals Janna's poke at best, CC of dubious usefulness in the laning phase and her early game heal heals for nothing and has a huge cooldown. Engaging on her early and often emphasizes her weaknesses.

If you wanted to outsustain your enemies while possibly outpoking them or winning engages/counterengages why not just pick Sona? Or Nami?

Or (end game) that she reduces your MR into the single digits,

Exactly how tanky are you, ever, that Starcall provides you with relevant amounts of shred on anyone but the enemy frontline who should have plenty of resistances in most comps?

Well, that said, if you are called bvefore you can silence her, yeah, you are righty tightied into deathtimers. However, if you use your head, ward brushes (support 101), use stun before she reaches you. fighting Leona is using your head.

Assuming you meant silence by stun, "using your head" seems to imply the enemy support is incapable of using his and doesn't prepare extra vision and vision denial in the form of pink wards in order to commit to aggression.

Her E has a castingtime (about half a second) and a nice simple animation. Soraka's E is instant one in range. Use your head and you can outthink Leona.

Assuming she hits the Zenith Blade right before you silence her, most of the level 1 silence is going to waste while she's in transit and then Leona still has ample time to apply Shield of Daybreak as soon as the silence wears off assuming she didn't pop W and Q right before using Zenith Blade which a lot of people do. Especially since if the Leona coordinates with her carry then they're just going to rush in together and Leonas tend to space out their abilities to proc the Sunlight passive as much as possible.

If Leona wants to hit she needs to get in close, guess where she hasn't built items for yet? Right. Lvl 5-6 is the problem. Then she is really dangerous, but lvl 2-3 is nothing yet.

You yourself don't do any damage (unless you go Starcall cheese) and can't peel. Unless Leona players you play with push lane to the turret, which, by the way, doesn't allow them to exert any aggression at all and thus should be avoided, getting in close isn't a problem.

And this is true for especially supports: Sona? Wait for the ultimate, rest is icing on the cake, but not that nesccessary. Blitz/Tresh: pull, (if they can land it). Zyra: Ult/snare. Now, the only actual useful support always is Elise. She has the ability to splitpush.

Well, I'm assuming you mean that supports work off of people forgetting what they do. So I guess you never met Blitzcranks that constantly kill your vision with Oracles and hit great grabs from great places, Jannas that reset entire teamfights and shut down entire team compositions, Lulus or Sonas who get to do amazing engages and disengages... Hell, all Thresh has to do is put out a lantern, he has a ton of amazing skills other than his hook. Meanwhile Elise is mostly picked for the fact she has a ton of natural damage from the get go and a stun so she can be used in high pressure or kill lanes. Oh, and she can splitpush, I guess. So can Janna, if you slap some cost-efficient AP items, like the Morellonomicon, on her.

abadguy

2013-09-11, 05:02 AM

What are the 'usual' bans you see?

All this Thresh talk :smallcool: gets to me because I see Thresh being a regular ban even when i spectate Gold+ games

Talesin

2013-09-11, 05:22 AM

What are the 'usual' bans you see?

All this Thresh talk :smallcool: gets to me because I see Thresh being a regular ban even when i spectate Gold+ games

I tend to ban TF, Shen and Fizz. I'll add in Malphite, Amumu, Thresh and Elise depending on whether the other team bans any of my 3.

The reasons I pick them is that I hate TF and Shen's global presence and few people have the skills to deal with them. Fizz on the other hand just seems to wreck mid lanes, though he is counterable if your jungler knows what he's doing.

I've also seen Nasus, Blitz and Vayne bans but I wouldn't ban them myself unless my team asks for them.

NineThePuma

2013-09-11, 06:22 AM

That moment where you get demoted because your team has an AFK.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-11, 07:13 AM

Ivellius

2013-09-11, 07:59 AM

What are the 'usual' bans you see?

All this Thresh talk :smallcool: gets to me because I see Thresh being a regular ban even when i spectate Gold+ games

Some combination of Thresh, Blitzcrank, Vayne, Zac, Lee Sin, Zed, Nasus, maybe Malphite or Shen. A lot of these depend on team compositions for me, but I hate Wither and those hooks (easier just to not play against them). Thresh is just silly anyway for everything he can do. Lee Sin and Zed are incredibly frustrating as well. *is Gold player*

I finally unlocked Kha'zix (mostly out of aesthetics, common he looks bad ass!), but I'm not really sure what to do with him. Due time constrain I could only play one game yesterday and I (un)luckily got a really good team that managed to win in less than 20 minutes, so I couldn't do much, I tried jungling (as it is my usual go-to role), but it was bad.

Would mid-laning be better? His passive does increase his damage a lot against lone targets and IME the mid-lane is the usual solo one.

I feel like KZ is probably better in a lane, but his jungle isn't terrible. W slows now without even being evolved. But yes, he does make for a good assassin in lane.

TechnOkami

2013-09-11, 08:09 AM

I finally unlocked Kha'zix (mostly out of aesthetics, common he looks bad ass!), but I'm not really sure what to do with him. Due time constrain I could only play one game yesterday and I (un)luckily got a really good team that managed to win in less than 20 minutes, so I couldn't do much, I tried jungling (as it is my usual go-to role), but it was bad.

Would mid-laning be better? His passive does increase his damage a lot against lone targets and IME the mid-lane is the usual solo one.

I think the trick to Kha'Zix is to wait and farm until you've got your jump and a few ranks in Q, and then jump onto them and burst them to oblivion with jump damage + Q.

But I don't play Kha'Zixstahn, so I might just be wrong too.

Hullabaloo

2013-09-11, 08:25 AM

As a new players that played support thresh most of last week and threw down 20+ wards (including sight stone ones) every game, it hurts to try mid this week (with Cass so far) and have no wards other then the ones I put down.
x.x

Krazzman

2013-09-11, 08:46 AM

TechnOkami

2013-09-11, 08:52 AM

How does this banning work anyway? Never quite understood the draft mode due to never trying it out...

The thing I thought youbest ban is broken champs, champs that would make the enemy comp better and champs that you don't like to play against.

You just described banning in a nutshell. Banning champs to improve a comp though is a little harder, borderline impossible I would say. League has so many champions by now that substituting one champ for another in a specific team comp is easy, making banning champions basically along these lines: if they're currently op, broken, or you just don't like 'em, bann 'em.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-11, 08:53 AM

In tournaments I've seen people banning champions that they know the other team favours.

Delusion

2013-09-11, 09:13 AM

In tournaments I've seen people banning champions that they know the other team favours.

That is not really possible for most players because you never know who your opponents are.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-11, 09:16 AM

I meant high profile matches, like TSM vs. C9, IIRC the commentators were going on and on about how TSM would have a hard time banning champions since C9 were really good with a wide variety of champions.

Krazzman

2013-09-11, 09:21 AM

I did not meant meta wise but more or less how the mechanic of draft is so I won't be surprised by it in my first ranked that I will probably play next year...

Nadevoc

2013-09-11, 09:25 AM

I did not meant meta wise but more or less how the mechanic of draft is so I won't be surprised by it in my first ranked that I will probably play next year...

The first picks on each team are captains. In ranked it'll be the person with the highest elo; in normals it's decided normally.

Each captain gets three bans, alternating back and forth between the two. Captain A bans one, then Captain B, then A, blah blah blah.

I suggest playing a game or two of normal drafts before going into ranked just so you're used to it and aren't as intimidated during champ select.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-11, 09:25 AM

IIRC teams take turns to ban, first to pick Ban 1 champion, next the other team bans 2, first team bans another 2 and second team finally bans one last champion.

Eldariel

2013-09-11, 09:37 AM

IIRC teams take turns to ban, first to pick Ban 1 champion, next the other team bans 2, first team bans another 2 and second team finally bans one last champion.

No, that's only for picks; bans are in turn on 1-1-1-1-1-1 basis. Currently we're working with 6 bans total, 3 for each team. Team with the first ban also thus picks first (which is kinda crucial for the enemy team so they get the last ban to sort of have the last say in which champs are in).

And yeah, player-targeted bans only really occur in Challenger elo play where you pretty much know everyone you could plausibly face anyways (and have all of them on your /f list) and in tournament play (where you obviously know your enemy team in their entirety).

However, personal preference bans/bans based on your own intended pick (e.g. "I don't want to deal with Kassadin since I'm playing TF") of course happen all the time and thus the ban phase is fairly fluid in solo queue ranked.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-11, 09:41 AM

It shows that I don't play ranked (yet). :smallredface:

Eldariel

2013-09-11, 09:51 AM

It shows that I don't play ranked (yet). :smallredface:

I suggest just diving headfirst into Draft Normals. I find it more enjoyable, personally (clearer structure on champ select leads to more reasonable teamcomps and some communication fairly often, and bans means you don't have to deal with Snowball Champ X if you don't feel like it), and it's basically just like Ranked minus the ranking. It's a sort of an easy way to ease into ranked and it's as good a way as any to enjoy normals, provided you enjoy normals.

Hullabaloo

2013-09-11, 09:53 AM

If I understand it correctly, when banning, its banned for each team. So each captain bans three, meaning there are 6 champs that are unavailable.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-11, 09:56 AM

I was playing blind pick since I didn't have the 16 champions for draft, but it seems that the free champion count if they don't overlap. So I guess this week I can play draft.

Olinser

2013-09-11, 10:10 AM

Some combination of Thresh, Blitzcrank, Vayne, Zac, Lee Sin, Zed, Nasus, maybe Malphite or Shen. A lot of these depend on team compositions for me, but I hate Wither and those hooks (easier just to not play against them). Thresh is just silly anyway for everything he can do. Lee Sin and Zed are incredibly frustrating as well. *is Gold player*

I feel like KZ is probably better in a lane, but his jungle isn't terrible. W slows now without even being evolved. But yes, he does make for a good assassin in lane.

I also see a decent amount of Jarvan, Amumu, Zed, Aatrox and Kassadin bans.

Eldariel

2013-09-11, 10:12 AM

If I understand it correctly, when banning, its banned for each team. So each captain bans three, meaning there are 6 champs that are unavailable.

This is correct. The primary purpose of bans is to remove champions you don't want to deal with (flavor of the month/OP champions), champions that counter whatever you want to pick and generally problematic champions on the level you play at (e.g. snowballing assassins).

If you're the first pick, you can try to leave something open to pick it up (or two somethings so enemy only has the option to ban one with their last pick and you can snag up the other; at this point a savvy enemy leaves both unbanned and takes the other one). Of course, note that champion power is almost completely eclipsed by player skill on almost all levels of play, and thus it's more important to make sure you get champs you're good at than the latest FotM you're not very good at (and don't expect to trade unless someone specifically expresses desire to).

Olinser

2013-09-11, 10:15 AM

This is correct. The primary purpose of bans is to remove champions you don't want to deal with (flavor of the month/OP champions), champions that counter whatever you want to pick and generally problematic champions on the level you play at (e.g. snowballing assassins).

If you're the first pick, you can try to leave something open to pick it up (or two somethings so enemy only has the option to ban one with their last pick and you can snag up the other; at this point a savvy enemy leaves both unbanned and takes the other one). Of course, note that champion power is almost completely eclipsed by player skill on almost all levels of play, and thus it's more important to make sure you get champs you're good at than the latest FotM you're not very good at (and don't expect to trade unless someone specifically expresses desire to).

It is also worth noting that a champion must be owned by somebody on the enemy team for it to be available on the ban list.

So if nobody on the enemy team owns Zed, he won't appear on your ban list.

Trades generally only happen if you convince somebody to first pick a sought-after champion for you (if he is available, I will almost always try to get my team to first pick Thresh and trade me).

At higher levels people will start trying to pick the support/jungler first so they can't be counter-picked.

NineThePuma

2013-09-11, 10:20 AM

At higher levels people will start trying to pick the support/jungler first so they can't be counter-picked.

Of course, at lower levels you inevitably get top, mid, and either jungle or ADC all in the first three picks unless you have a support main in the room.

Merellis

2013-09-11, 10:27 AM

NineThePuma

2013-09-11, 10:30 AM

That's beautiful

Olinser

2013-09-11, 10:41 AM

So I finally convince my wife to play PvP, we decide to just duo for bot lane. One person wants it instead, but we called first and said we'd be awesome. The other three leave at the beginning complaining of 400 ping. This is what happens.

http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee434/gmglyph/cait2v5_zps23e31bae.png

We got 1 tower.

It happens.

Report them and move on.

I had a couple absolutely horrific provisional games when we started ranked.

By far the two worst were the guy that calls AD, then proceeds to pick VOLIBEAR.

The other one was just an absolutely abysmal Ezrael. To give you a snapshot of how bad he was, at one point it was pushed to our tower, it was ONLY Graves in lane at half health, and we were both at full health (I was on Sona).

I flash and ult him, then exhaust him. Ezrael sits at the tower KILLING MINIONS while Graves kills me, and THEN he rushes out at Graves with zero mana after I am already dead, and gets killed too. I think he finished that game 1/11.

Hullabaloo

2013-09-11, 10:47 AM

We got 1 tower.

Ha, made a good go of it.

Merellis

2013-09-11, 10:58 AM

That's beautiful I was surprised to find my rage turned to joy as we started just ripping them apart. We couldn't deal with Riven split-pushing, but they couldn't even kill us in a 2v4 when not under tower at all.

It happens.

Report them and move on.

I had a couple absolutely horrific provisional games when we started ranked.

By far the two worst were the guy that calls AD, then proceeds to pick VOLIBEAR.

The other one was just an absolutely abysmal Ezrael. To give you a snapshot of how bad he was, at one point it was pushed to our tower, it was ONLY Graves in lane at half health, and we were both at full health (I was on Sona).

I flash and ult him, then exhaust him. Ezrael sits at the tower KILLING MINIONS while Graves kills me, and THEN he rushes out at Graves with zero mana after I am already dead, and gets killed too. I think he finished that game 1/11.

Oh those sound bad, and we did report them because holy crap. I don't think I can be convinced that it was really 400 Ping that caused this. Disagreement on who goes where in Champ Select, followed by none of them buying a darn thing and just quitting while saying that they have 400 ping. :smallannoyed:

Ha, made a good go of it.
More out of spite and boredom than anything. We didn't expect it to go so well, but then we started pulling ahead because they had 3 vs our 2 in the lane at all times with them sharing the farm and me just last-hitting as fast as I could.

Once I got the IE it turned into ridiculousness as I could 3-shot Sona, Twitch, and Fizz. Sad to say that it was there that they finally all started split pushing for all they were worth.

Socratov

2013-09-11, 12:10 PM

Spoilered for soraka discussion (and thus length, cause this a a looooooooooooooooong one)
1.Infinite sustain Soraka is gone man. Just let her go.
I know, but I don't want to, you know...

2.Soraka's W heal is on part with other support heals. Sona has slightly worse healing per second and almost exactly the same healing per mana(important on a support's income), but Sona can AoE CC a team, provides choice of (burst/slow/damage reduction), and just generally be relevant in situations outside healing her ADC and silencing a DPS Mage(the only class that really cares about silences).
Except that Sona's heal is only useful out of combat. In combat it's like goggles: Zhey do Nasing! Soraka's heal allows a carry to carefully venture out there again to start farming agian without fear of being oneshot. Sona's heal needs to be used at least 3 times to warrant that kind of safety (not much, but some)

Another problem, because of other skills being useful Sona can't afford to go full blown healing continually. Soraka for the first 10 minutes can (and then she gets philo and never has any problems again). In every lane I have played against Sona, Sona can't keep up with Soraka in carry sustain by miles. Which is fine because Sona has other uses that Sorakla doesn't have. Infinite sustain soraka may not be truly infinite anymore, but it's still damn much.

3.Nothing in Soraka's kit stops an all-in. *NOTHING* It can swing a close fight, but not every fight in bot lane is close. If you want a disengage support, go learn to play Janna, that's what she does best.

Not what I'd piocked for a disengaging support, I'd picked Zyra, but fair enough. though Soraka certainly hurts combos and can enable baiting like no other (possible exception of Taric)

Its actually becoming common in solo queue ranked, these days, at least at my level, to see a support grab ignite. I'm not sure I agree with it, but its common enough that calling it "freakishly rare" means you're really not aware of it.

I guess I'm too low for that then. I commonly (99,9%) see exhaust, other options include teleport or even clairvoyance. The funny thing is that Exhaust does work wonders on botlanes and later in teamfights. They wreck without any risk of 'ks-ing' which in soloQ turns adc's into ragequitters

Additionally, some ADCs have methods to reduce healing in their kits, including Varus, Miss Fortune, and Tristana.

Mostly the last 2 are problematic (most notably MF). I grant you that.

Which was kinda his point.

You can't silence Leona if she jumps your carry. Her W is already up, she can have her Q up before she goes in, and she's already used her E(and probably her R). Silencing her after that does -nothing- to stop her ADC from murdering yours. You can't silence Blitz after a good hook because he's over 1k units away from you. Thresh, you can silence, but that doesn't stop lantern, so the jungler he dragged along is now on top of your carry, what do?

Blitz>stay behind minions and ward like you're father christmas to always have vision. junglers->GTFO and make sure you have vision. Also, this trick has a telltale: a freaking half lane wide blue beam. Not to sound disrespectful, but that is a dead giveaway to back up. On Leona you have a point though. Point in case, IIRC your range on E is bigger then her range on E, thus vision solves everything. Tada, Q and W are wasted since leona can't connect in time.

Its probably just you, man. I mean, a good Soraka player can make it work for a long time, but you're fighting an uphill battle against supports that are just better at what they do than she is.
Well, every support has it's strengths, some of which are better for the team then others. And You are right in the fact that it is uphill. And If I can show that one shoudln't underestimate a soraka in lane I have a good game. :smallcool:

Last time Soraka was good, I stopped maining ad carry.

Bethor it is worth noting that silence is actually very good vs assassins and her heal gives a massive and very useful armor buff, but all that means is that she's much worse than Sona, not strictly worse. Soraka matchups are almost all just farm lanes where Soraka gets outscaled, except actually Soraka can't even farm right. She's probably okay vs the defensive/bad supports (Janna/Alistar, respectively) except that she gets outscaled really really badly by them.

Remember that when evaluating your personal experience of a champion, Socratov, you are weighing experience that is both low-level (I'm guessing, based on your opinion on Soraka) and extremely biased - low-level people don't do well against champions they haven't seen much, especially champions they haven't seen much that play differently from most champions.
Except that I have actually little to no professional play seen of her. So In order to judge her effectiveness I can only follow my own experience. One thing though: Soraka is the cheapest support out there but neglected becuase other supports at least look cooler and have fancy CC :smallamused: And because the pros play other champs and they think they can do as well on them like the dutiful sheep they are :smallamused: It doesn't explain the effect when I played with a friend ranked against gold level opponents who should know (for reference, played 3, all soraka, all win )

As a further point about Soraka, I tend to dread playing with her in soloqueue if I see the support pick her. I always watch them die and then they type something in chat like "My heal was gonna be back up in 2 more seconds."

If the person didn't have the heal for two seconds, why was he in range of being killed?!
and there is your answer: because common sense is so rare, it's a super power.

as an addendum to this discusion I will note that Soraka is both strong and fun in the Domminion and TT games I have encountered or played her (in ARAM she's exactly as broken as everyone else with a heal). This leads me to suspect that she may have Karma syndrome where her design is fine but she isn't and can not be a bot lane gold-less support. Mid lane she's a fairly strong bully who scales pretty well.
well, Dominion and Aram are broken to hell and back anyway, and Soraka can actually function without money, instead buying items for her team instead ofher own, done it once. Too funny: Soraka with cooldown boots, improved aegis (yes, back then), zeke's, will. The result was glorious, and people thought I was trolling until we started teamfighting and pushing.

Dominion and Twisted Treeline both have enhanced mana regen, that really allows her to spam her spells. And didn't we have a discussion about mid lane Sona in the last 10 or so pages on the old thread?

EDIT: Read Sona for some strange reason, scratch that part. But the point about enhance mana regen still stands. Plus given the rampant nature of bruiser on 3v3 the armor buff on her heal is going to be REALLY good.
Soraka rarely goes OOM, unless she levels starcall, which she shouldn't until forced otherwise

mana is and issue in mid, I really wish her e was just a silence that gave her passive mana regen when leveled sometimes. Nevertheless itemizing mana on ap casters is really good right now so it mostly just stops her from shutting down her opponent before ~ level 5 when she can get a chalice or tear.
like above, with 1 questioin: what are you doing in mid anyway? Her E is free to cast btw (in mid lvl this one first), and her heal you actually want to spend mana on (level this one second). So... I think something, somewhere went terribly wrong...

(I meant to send this post a good 6 hours ago but, alas, internet managed to die right before I hit Submit Reply, so I went to sleep. So now it has responses to additional comments on the matter)

Ignite is picked very often when
1) you want to snowball because it grants more kill potential than Exhaust
2) you see a heavy sustain support / a troubling sustain champion in any lane in Draft mode
3) you don't necessarily need Exhaust (Draft mode or team comp)
You see it quite a lot in pro matches.
In SoloQ you want it desperately becuase it gives a "NO!" button on enemy carries mitigating a lot of damage versus your team (and giving time to burst carreis down until sustain kicks back in)

Starcall at level 1 yields hilarious results especially with something like Doran's Shield as a starting item. It's some enormous cheese and I never even implied it's a "mainstream" strategy, but it has the potential to do some massive level 1 damage and pressure. It can work on people who seek all-ins at early levels who underestimate it's damage. It has a funny synergy with Barrier (that people don't normally pick on supports). It's something I threw out there as a possible solution to Soraka's bad level 1.
while funny, it's not something you do as a support since you want your carry to grow fat like gragas. Though it could be fun to try it once in an insanely agressive comp like graves or something...

Blitzcrank / Thresh hooks your AD carry, Leona initiates on you. Your silence lasts 1.5 seconds and you don't max it first. It doesn't even stop anyone, they can just keep following and apply that CC anyway. It gives time to Flash or dash away maybe. You still are forced to back off as soon as possible and can continue to take free damage. Silence doesn't even stop stuff like Thresh's empowered autoattacks.

hooks are meant to be dodged, else your carry is likely an idiot or you are not warding the way you should. Seriously, no support has an answer for a hook. That's not just Soraka, that is any support, becuase the solution is something else then the support actually does.

Decent warding and using your skills is how every other freaking support wins lanes. Soraka just has way less ways to do anything because she has no good peel, no initiation whatsoever, her amount of poke rivals Janna's poke at best, CC of dubious usefulness in the laning phase and her early game heal heals for nothing and has a huge cooldown. Engaging on her early and often emphasizes her weaknesses.
yes if you generalise that much back that's how any lane wins. Seriously, wards are op, better nerf that Riot. But Soraka has the ability to completely reverse the hunter/hunted role in a gank or teamfight. Not many champs that can do thatwith permanent results (I.E. hp and removing casting initiative). And If you have nevcer seen it on your side I weep for you for haveing seen no decent Soraka.

If you wanted to outsustain your enemies while possibly outpoking them or winning engages/counterengages why not just pick Sona? Or Nami?

Sona's sustain looks good, but lacks IMO like presented above. Nami I haven't played a lot, but assuming your enemies are no idiots, the sustain is lacking for it's cooldown and manacost.[/quote]

Exactly how tanky are you, ever, that Starcall provides you with relevant amounts of shred on anyone but the enemy frontline who should have plenty of resistances in most comps?

[/quote] not much, but the enemy has other problems like my mid and adc laying waste to everything/ Plus the range is quite something

Assuming you meant silence by stun, "using your head" seems to imply the enemy support is incapable of using his and doesn't prepare extra vision and vision denial in the form of pink wards in order to commit to aggression.

they should, but I generally buy more pinks then the other support (only once was I outpinked), often playing agianst twitch or eve does that to you.

Assuming she hits the Zenith Blade right before you silence her, most of the level 1 silence is going to waste while she's in transit and then Leona still has ample time to apply Shield of Daybreak as soon as the silence wears off assuming she didn't pop W and Q right before using Zenith Blade which a lot of people do. Especially since if the Leona coordinates with her carry then they're just going to rush in together and Leonas tend to space out their abilities to proc the Sunlight passive as much as possible.
assuming that, yes, however my 'protip' here is you don't let her. Use the range, make yourself last target instead of your carry (now she has to choose) and heal who is lowest (usually yourself). Presto: no kill for leona. BTW, it took me a while to learn how to play against her. Playing her myself has helped me a lot about uncovering her weaknesess

You yourself don't do any damage (unless you go Starcall cheese) and can't peel. Unless Leona players you play with push lane to the turret, which, by the way, doesn't allow them to exert any aggression at all and thus should be avoided, getting in close isn't a problem.
I always expect Leona to (after some harrassment) dive the turret. Sadly most carries don't follow up ending up oin a dead leona. Bu tI have seen it done lots. especially at lvl 6-7

Well, I'm assuming you mean that supports work off of people forgetting what they do. So I guess you never met Blitzcranks that constantly kill your vision with Oracles and hit great grabs from great places, Jannas that reset entire teamfights and shut down entire team compositions, Lulus or Sonas who get to do amazing engages and disengages... Hell, all Thresh has to do is put out a lantern, he has a ton of amazing skills other than his hook. Meanwhile Elise is mostly picked for the fact she has a ton of natural damage from the get go and a stun so she can be used in high pressure or kill lanes. Oh, and she can splitpush, I guess. So can Janna, if you slap some cost-efficient AP items, like the Morellonomicon, on her.
Rarely see Lulu, but Yeah Janna I see reset teamfights if she lives long enough to position herself. Visionwar is standard support stuff, not specific to blitz or other supports and an integral part of supporting.

What are the 'usual' bans you see?

All this Thresh talk :smallcool: gets to me because I see Thresh being a regular ban even when i spectate Gold+ games
Me? Zac, Zed, Kass, Malphite (for some reason), Tresh and some other champ.

wow, that was a lot.

So, Just won a game with Leona, dieing less, the enemy janna, killing less, assisting less, but having a solid 3k on her :smallbiggrin: Also being support with Zeke's and vanguard rocks. Solid :smallamused:

Nadevoc

2013-09-11, 12:45 PM

hooks are meant to be dodged, else your carry is likely an idiot or you are not warding the way you should. Seriously, no support has an answer for a hook. That's not just Soraka, that is any support, becuase the solution is something else then the support actually does.

Every time Blitz or Thresh comes up, you just go "dodge the hooks" and move on. Hooks WILL land at times.

And other supports are actually better able to deal with hooks.

Leona: instant all-in on the enemy ADC
Thresh: Lantern out or go in on enemy ADC and try to lock them down with hook and Flays
Alistar: Flies into enemies and knocks them up and/or back
Sona: Actually really weak to hook lanes, but should be trying to utilize her extreme poke to keep the enemy too low to hook

Except that Sona's heal is only useful out of combat. In combat it's like goggles: Zhey do Nasing! Soraka's heal allows a carry to carefully venture out there again to start farming agian without fear of being oneshot. Sona's heal needs to be used at least 3 times to warrant that kind of safety (not much, but some)

Sona's heal is useful in combat, too, though not as bursty. And the more sustained nature of it isn't always harmful; in dealing with poke in lane, it's just as good if not better because you just cast it every time a trade happens without worrying about overheal or it being on CD and leaving you vulnerable for a whopping 20 seconds. And throughout laning phase, the overall amount healed is pretty much exactly the same.

Except that I have actually little to no professional play seen of her. So In order to judge her effectiveness I can only follow my own experience. One thing though: Soraka is the cheapest support out there but neglected becuase other supports at least look cooler and have fancy CC And because the pros play other champs and they think they can do as well on them like the dutiful sheep they are

Pro players don't pick their champions because they're sheep. Professional players in fact tend to be the shephards. If they're not bringing out Soraka, that's because they've decided that doing so hurts their chances of winning because other support picks are going to be better.

like above, with 1 questioin: what are you doing in mid anyway? Her E is free to cast btw (in mid lvl this one first), and her heal you actually want to spend mana on (level this one second). So... I think something, somewhere went terribly wrong...

Because he wants to play Midraka, which is a thing, though it pretty much disappeared after some nerfs (I forget what; I know the jungle changes hurt it because one of its strengths was taking all the lane farm AND both wraith camps). It levels Q first, not E

not much, but the enemy has other problems like my mid and adc laying waste to everything/ Plus the range is quite something

(Talking about Starcrall and using it) Starcall's range isn't that great and she's so squishy that if you're getting in range to apply it to anyone but the enemy tank/bruiser line, you run a pretty high risk of blowing up incidentally

they should, but I generally buy more pinks then the other support (only once was I outpinked), often playing agianst twitch or eve does that to you.

Buying a pink ward and using it to eliminate the enemy's pink in the side brush are two different things. They should generally deploy it in the back end of the bush so you have to go to at least the halfway point of the bush to take it out. Given that Soraka is a very weak all-in support, that's huge.

I always expect Leona to (after some harrassment) dive the turret. Sadly most carries don't follow up ending up oin a dead leona. Bu tI have seen it done lots. especially at lvl 6-7

So basically you feel confident relying on your opponents to MASSIVELY misplay and just completely give your carry kills? Because that's not something you can just rely on.

Silverraptor

2013-09-11, 12:54 PM

Teamwork OP. (http://beta.na.leagueoflegends.com/node/5550)

Merellis

2013-09-11, 01:11 PM

What sort of idiot Leona player would even do that? I can see diving in on the tower for only three reasons. 1) the Jungler and/or Mid are coming in from behind and you need to initiate the fight. 2) Your Carry is about to launch the ability needed to get a couple kills and you need to keep them in position for a second. 3) The enemy carry/support are so low on HP and Mana that you can easily nab a kill and walk off.

Teamwork OP. (http://beta.na.leagueoflegends.com/node/5550)
Haha, that was an interesting video to watch.

Winthur

2013-09-11, 01:16 PM

Spoiler for Soraka discussion since in the game of autism only some people have fun

IIRC your range on E is bigger then her range on E, thus vision solves everything. Tada, Q and W are wasted since leona can't connect in time.

You always seem to assume you're going to have vision over Leona. Why? Leona can kill a ward as it's popped into the brush and if she wants to catch and kill you she should invest extra into vision denial.

Soraka is the cheapest support out there but neglected becuase other supports at least look cooler and have fancy CC :smallamused: And because the pros play other champs and they think they can do as well on them like the dutiful sheep they are :smallamused: It doesn't explain the effect when I played with a friend ranked against gold level opponents who should know (for reference, played 3, all soraka, all win )

Pulling the "sheeple don't play Soraka because no pro plays her, not because she's boring and one-dimensional" and "I can beat goldies, it was all my Soraka" card in one sentence.

Man, I have won lanes against Platinum and Diamond players before as a support, and I'm, at this moment, a Silver player in solo queue. What does that make me? Silver.

like above, with 1 questioin: what are you doing in mid anyway? Her E is free to cast btw (in mid lvl this one first), and her heal you actually want to spend mana on (level this one second). So... I think something, somewhere went terribly wrong...

AP Soraka is a thing because it's hard to force her out, she has excellent level 1 damage, she pushes like crazy and can shut down mages with her silence. But no pro plays her because they prefer fancy cc and actual roaming ability and sheeple will follow :smallamused: kek

In SoloQ you want it desperately becuase it gives a "NO!" button on enemy carries mitigating a lot of damage versus your team (and giving time to burst carreis down until sustain kicks back in)

Sure Exhaust is a great counter to autoattack heavy carries (Vayne comes to mind) and a few other champions. It's a great spell. Ignite however enables way more kill potential. You can get kills with Ignite that you wouldn't with Exhaust. If an Ezreal gets taken low and Ignited, he dashes away and dies in a fire. If an Ezreal gets taken low and Exhausted, he dashes away with a limp, but still alive. Also, solo queue typically doesn't reach late game, and on some supports and teamcomps, you don't need Exhaust's bonus CC. Plus a fed support can get earlier items and dominate the lane even harder. Plus if the Ignite nags somebody the AD carry still gets an assist, which is a win for him too. Plus Ignite shuts down healing.

while funny, it's not something you do as a support since you want your carry to grow fat like gragas. Though it could be fun to try it once in an insanely agressive comp like graves or something...
It's a cheese specifically designed to win a level 1 fight and walk away from it with a double kill. So yes, it helps your support grow fat at least by applying pressure.

hooks are meant to be dodged, else your carry is likely an idiot or you are not warding the way you should. Seriously, no support has an answer for a hook.

Alistar, Leona, Taric - they are too tanky to be killed in a 2v2. Blitzcrank hooking either one of those is a free initiate for the enemy. Thresh hooking either one of those probably can't follow up with a hook and flay. Blitzcrank has to wait for ganks.
Sona - a very squishy support that dies to burst. However if Blitzcrank or Thresh has hook on cooldown he can get poked by Sona in return. Overall Sona only wins in prolonged fights that have sustain involved. I run Health quints on Sona especially against aggressive lanes because Blitzcranks try to level 2 hook me in lane and I tend to accept because I win those engages (Sona has mucho damage) and then sustain back.
Lulu - whoever gets hooked gets a Lulu ult for a quick and easy disengage. A Whimsy can be used offensively. Glitterlance can help kite. And again, Lulu outpokes both Thresh and Blitzcrank.
Janna - Howling Gale stops Thresh's hook following mechanic, Monsoon does work against hard initiates, Eye of the Storm helps not die.
Fiddle - don't hook him while he is ulted please. If he gets grabbed in a 2v2 he can initiate with fear and disengage or begin a new engagement altogether.

About the only people I'd say having little to no counters to hooks would be Zyra (she can ult, but it's delayed, though a good disengage nonetheless; her root doesn't do much when she's in melee range) and Soraka (you can heal up for the burst, but you're squishy and have nothing in your kit to make you more mobile, make you able to out-trade in this situation, and you can't stop autoattacks with silence).

Also, Ezreal can easily dash away from Blitz hooks mid-transit, though he's not a support. Still a typical bot laner.

In teamfight situations when 5 people can dogpile on hooks it's different, but still, Blitzcrank absolutely abhors situations where the enemy team looks like Amumu/Ezreal/Alistar/Aatrox/Karthus where his Rocket Grab is hard to help his team with because whoever he grabs can potentially spell doom to his teammates. Hooks are a real threat as teamfight initiations and ganks; in a 2v2, they come sporadically since people know how to deal with them, and at least Blitz has nothing in his kit other than his hook and abilities that support that hook.

yes if you generalise that much back that's how any lane wins.

So basically when you play Soraka you have a maphack between bot lane and mid lane and all jungle entrances and the enemies are just too stupid to try denying it. I got it.

But Soraka has the ability to completely reverse the hunter/hunted role in a gank or teamfight.

So can Blitz, Thresh, Zyra and Lulu, to name a few, with their disengages, surprise engages (Flash hook under turret against chasers can score cheese kills) and innate damage.

Not many champs that can do thatwith permanent results (I.E. hp and removing casting initiative)

Why do permanent results matter? How "permanent" is removing caster initiative? If you use your skills to turn the tides of a gank and get a kill and you are low, then you either lifesteal/pot up/regen back while outpushing the lane (since the people who tried diving you are dead) or recall back (if you're too low for comfort, and need to spend the gold anyway).

And If you have nevcer seen it on your side I weep for you for haveing seen no decent Soraka
I have played every support this game has to offer and even though I lack mechanical skill I tend to know their limits and capabilities. I'm trying to evaluate her strengths and weaknesses, you work off anecdotal evidence and fail to address certain matters (such as the fact that silence doesn't stop autoattacks). Sure I have seen decent Sorakas. They just don't play Soraka anymore, mostly.

Sona's sustain looks good, but lacks IMO like presented above. Nami I haven't played a lot, but assuming your enemies are no idiots, the sustain is lacking for it's cooldown and manacost.

Nami's heal has a drawback where it is rather inefficient outside of battle situations, yes. However, what's the problem with Sona's heal again? It doesn't have a superhefty cooldown unlike Soraka, comes with a very useful Power Chord effect that can make or break teamfights (-20% damage on a burst assassin or fed AD carry for 3 seconds? I'm sold!), and heals both you and your teammate. Spamming it when you're the only one hurt is usually bad and you have many ways to heal up a bit in the early game (get a Doran's Shield, start with health pots, get a Philosopher Stone), spamming it when the AD carry is hurt but he can safely lifesteal is usually bad, but it works on two people (cool for, you know, 2v2 situations in bot lane), gives an aura, stacks up Power Chord, and contributes to her being a lane dominating machine who not only heals up, but can also efficiently deal damage and initiate fights, something that wins games more than a passive, reactory heal or silence.

but I generally buy more pinks then the other support (only once was I outpinked)

play more games

Hullabaloo

2013-09-11, 01:18 PM

Teamwork OP. (http://beta.na.leagueoflegends.com/node/5550)

As a person that deals with stats all the time I hate their quotes about sportsmanship

Sportsman players win 1.7 million more games then average players
context? If there are 5 million sportsman players and 1 million 'average' players, then i dont want to be a sportsman. Not to mention no attempt at causation as opposed to correlation.

54% win rate with no ragers vs 46% witt 3 ragers
causation or correlation? Do people rage because the lose alot (ie bad players)? If so then the statement could be "54% win rate with no bad players vs 46% with 3 bad players". Do ragers typically end up being people that dont focus on winning the game anyways, and focus on other parts of the game?

correlation between behavior and gold there is also a direct correlation when you consider that every person that has every killed anyone also drank milk.

Just Raging here :) I teach stats, and stuff in this video is stuff I tell my students to look out for, and to never do in a job. Useless or misleading statistics are useless or misleading 100% of the time.

toasty

2013-09-11, 02:03 PM

Welp I got my qualifier for gold AGAIN. Played a few diana games, love that hero. Played a few annie games, but I'm frustrated by how binary she can be.

I also find it funny that I'm seeing a LOT more 4 threat teams these days. I'm not sure how I feel about it. In general games towards the end of the season always seem more snowbally. I think its because you start mixing players like me, who have played something like 700 ranked games this season with players like Zach, who haven't played alot of games, so his rating doesn't necessarily describe his skill. you also get a LOT of Plat/Gold duos and Gold/Silver duos as people try to help their friends get gold.

Question: If I duo queue with a bronze 5 player during my Series, and win my series, will I still get gold? :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel

2013-09-11, 02:09 PM

Question: If I duo queue with a bronze 5 player during my Series, and win my series, will I still get gold? :smallbiggrin:

Yes, though you'll play with tarded team vs. slightly less tarded team. Athene-trick is to use a high ranked player on a Bronze smurf.

Wolf_Haley

2013-09-11, 02:12 PM

Think it's possible to get to gold if I can only play on weekends from Bronze III?

Also note to self, grab Trynd to make it easier.

Socratov

2013-09-11, 02:14 PM

Every time Blitz or Thresh comes up, you just go "dodge the hooks" and move on. Hooks WILL land at times.

And other supports are actually better able to deal with hooks.

Leona: instant all-in on the enemy ADC
Thresh: Lantern out or go in on enemy ADC and try to lock them down with hook and Flays
Alistar: Flies into enemies and knocks them up and/or back
Sona: Actually really weak to hook lanes, but should be trying to utilize her extreme poke to keep the enemy too low to hook

what about staying behind creeps? as long as you stay behind creeps you can't be hooked. Leona's root works, though she will have to tank not you and your carry, but your minions as well. If your minions get pushed, move back in anticipation. Elemantal positioning.

Sona's heal is useful in combat, too, though not as bursty. And the more sustained nature of it isn't always harmful; in dealing with poke in lane, it's just as good if not better because you just cast it every time a trade happens without worrying about overheal or it being on CD and leaving you vulnerable for a whopping 20 seconds. And throughout laning phase, the overall amount healed is pretty much exactly the same.

unless you start pushing lots of AP, the heal amount is 40/60/80/100/120 (+0.25AP). at levels (taken asap, ult at 6) 1,3,5,7,9. this is 1 autohit from a carry at the start to a decent poke later (never mind the autohit). Besides, at the time you leave lane a bit (lvl 7-8) you start temafighting, no wyour ap/ad dmg boost and ult are much more important as are your speedboost. The build I see most of times is q-w-q-w-e-r-q-w(?) which means you can't keep up on it.

Pro players don't pick their champions because they're sheep. Professional players in fact tend to be the shephards. If they're not bringing out Soraka, that's because they've decided that doing so hurts their chances of winning because other support picks are going to be better.

I never said proplayers are sheep, non-pro palyers are sheep (especially bronze, silver and low gold). They worry much more about which champion counter which (despite that being bollocks at that level of play) and what champion is played by which pro and who is a fanboy of whom. This sounds condescending, but real all the same (along with everyone yelling "pickorder is sacred! We shoudl worship it as our god!")

Because he wants to play Midraka, which is a thing, though it pretty much disappeared after some nerfs (I forget what; I know the jungle changes hurt it because one of its strengths was taking all the lane farm AND both wraith camps). It levels Q first, not E

must have been a thing during my year+ sabattical from LoL... CAn't really comment on this then...

(Talking about Starcrall and using it) Starcall's range isn't that great and she's so squishy that if you're getting in range to apply it to anyone but the enemy tank/bruiser line, you run a pretty high risk of blowing up incidentally

True, it is a risk, but only endgame when you have stocked up on (I hope) ruby sightstone and Locket improving your tankiness. It's usually when focus is on carries and bruiser. then you be sneaky.

Buying a pink ward and using it to eliminate the enemy's pink in the side brush are two different things. They should generally deploy it in the back end of the bush so you have to go to at least the halfway point of the bush to take it out. Given that Soraka is a very weak all-in support, that's huge.

I find it insulting that you think I'd just by a pink and not know how to use it to eliminate other wards or at least place it comeptently. If a person can't do this as a support (or ping their carries that they should reposition becuase of blitz in brush) something is done wrong.

So basically you feel confident relying on your opponents to MASSIVELY misplay and just completely give your carry kills? Because that's not something you can just rely on.hyperbole much? Leona is one of the few champs that can competently towerdive and gtfo again. It's not done constantly, but I see it done once/twice every game with decent results. Ofcourse she won't dive solo or without carry/jungle support that stands to common sense.

@winthur: thank you for your opening statement, I'll try and see if I can match it with a diagnose by a doctor (if this is not what you meant please say so, this is how it comes across to me)

You always seem to assume you're going to have vision over Leona. Why? Leona can kill a ward as it's popped into the brush and if she wants to catch and kill you she should invest extra into vision denial.
Soraka is ranged and despite her low base ad she can annoy forcing leona to either go all-in oir leave the ward be. This is getting very game specific though depending on botlane comp and buys at the start of the game

Pulling the "sheeple don't play Soraka because no pro plays her, not because she's boring and one-dimensional" and "I can beat goldies, it was all my Soraka" card in one sentence.
I may have been a bit crass there, however my poit to illustrate is that one does see a sheeple tendency in bronze silver (or at least I see it): these days it's tresh/zyra, before it was something else, before that (season 2) it was sona/janna, and when shushei was somebody it was alistar and taric. My point still stands, especially considering that tournament and regional patches may differ from time to time. The second is where I did make the difference feeding my carry ez like the french feed their geese, resulting in a great difference between carreis getting the game. This was versus Sona, Tresh, Leona IIRC, each of which are said to completely screw over Soraka in lane (or that seems to be the common sentiment here)

Man, I have won lanes against Platinum and Diamond players before as a support, and I'm, at this moment, a Silver player in solo queue. What does that make me? Silver.

And I'm still in Placement. It served as an example of showing that apparently not only bronze and low silver players can't seem to systematically beat her (like in my normals), but high silver and gold as well, countering hte argument that low elo players just don't know how to counter soraka

AP Soraka is a thing because it's hard to force her out, she has excellent level 1 damage, she pushes like crazy and can shut down mages with her silence. But no pro plays her because they prefer fancy cc and actual roaming ability and sheeple will follow :smallamused: kek

I comepletely conceed this point (never even contested it) in the fact that there are way better midlaners then soraka on account of wanting a midlaner to carry on the AP nside of things. Which Soraka (with the burst ability of a squirrel) will never do. She does have great counterburst though...

Sure Exhaust is a great counter to autoattack heavy carries (Vayne comes to mind) and a few other champions. It's a great spell. Ignite however enables way more kill potential. You can get kills with Ignite that you wouldn't with Exhaust. If an Ezreal gets taken low and Ignited, he dashes away and dies in a fire. If an Ezreal gets taken low and Exhausted, he dashes away with a limp, but still alive. Also, solo queue typically doesn't reach late game, and on some supports and teamcomps, you don't need Exhaust's bonus CC. Plus a fed support can get earlier items and dominate the lane even harder. Plus if the Ignite nags somebody the AD carry still gets an assist, which is a win for him too. Plus Ignite shuts down healing.

That is one way to use exhaust, I just use it for damage mitigation. though this is a preference matter

It's a cheese specifically designed to win a level 1 fight and walk away from it with a double kill. So yes, it helps your support grow fat at least by applying pressure.
I think we have different definitions of cheese... and if not that, different appetites. I like a good gorgonzola or gruyere every now and then :smallamused:

Sona - a very squishy support that dies to burst. However if Blitzcrank or Thresh has hook on cooldown he can get poked by Sona in return. Overall Sona only wins in prolonged fights that have sustain involved. I run Health quints on Sona especially against aggressive lanes because Blitzcranks try to level 2 hook me in lane and I tend to accept because I win those engages (Sona has mucho damage) and then sustain back.
Lulu - whoever gets hooked gets a Lulu ult for a quick and easy disengage. A Whimsy can be used offensively. Glitterlance can help kite. And again, Lulu outpokes both Thresh and Blitzcrank.
Janna - Howling Gale stops Thresh's hook following mechanic, Monsoon does work against hard initiates, Eye of the Storm helps not die.does it now?:smallconfused: that is some new information for me. good to know

Fiddle - don't hook him while he is ulted please. If he gets grabbed in a 2v2 he can initiate with fear and disengage or begin a new engagement altogether.

About the only people I'd say having little to no counters to hooks would be Zyra (she can ult, but it's delayed, though a good disengage nonetheless; her root doesn't do much when she's in melee range) and Soraka (you can heal up for the burst, but you're squishy and have nothing in your kit to make you more mobile, make you able to out-trade in this situation, and you can't stop autoattacks with silence).
which is why stay-behind-the-minions-while-blitz-has-hook is a viable tactic

Also, Ezreal can easily dash away from Blitz hooks mid-transit, though he's not a support. Still a typical bot laner.
yeah, he's special that way :smallsmile:

In teamfight situations when 5 people can dogpile on hooks it's different, but still, Blitzcrank absolutely abhors situations where the enemy team looks like Amumu/Ezreal/Alistar/Aatrox/Karthus where his Rocket Grab is hard to help his team with because whoever he grabs can potentially spell doom to his teammates. Hooks are a real threat as teamfight initiations and ganks; in a 2v2, they come sporadically since people know how to deal with them, and at least Blitz has nothing in his kit other than his hook and abilities that support that hook.

So basically when you play Soraka you have a maphack between bot lane and mid lane and all jungle entrances and the enemies are just too stupid to try denying it. I got it.

Well, if wards and excessive counterwarding is maphack, then yes. Also, the utility ward can be great to initiate a wardwar leaving you with vision as you use your pinks to destroy his pinks

So can Blitz, Thresh, Zyra and Lulu, to name a few, with their disengages, surprise engages (Flash hook under turret against chasers can score cheese kills) and innate damage.

Why do permanent results matter? How "permanent" is removing caster initiative? If you use your skills to turn the tides of a gank and get a kill and you are low, then you either lifesteal/pot up/regen back while outpushing the lane (since the people who tried diving you are dead) or recall back (if you're too low for comfort, and need to spend the gold anyway).

well in a game of cat and mouse it's the person with initiative who has the upper hand in doing or controlling the situation. deny them the initiative and making it your own turns tables so to speak.

I have played every support this game has to offer and even though I lack mechanical skill I tend to know their limits and capabilities. I'm trying to evaluate her strengths and weaknesses, you work off anecdotal evidence and fail to address certain matters (such as the fact that silence doesn't stop autoattacks). Sure I have seen decent Sorakas. They just don't play Soraka anymore, mostly.
to be honest a lot of counterpoints people have brought up are adresssed by wards, positioning and experience, not specifically soraka's kit

Nami's heal has a drawback where it is rather inefficient outside of battle situations, yes. However, what's the problem with Sona's heal again? It doesn't have a superhefty cooldown unlike Soraka, comes with a very useful Power Chord effect that can make or break teamfights (-20% damage on a burst assassin or fed AD carry for 3 seconds? I'm sold!), and heals both you and your teammate. Spamming it when you're the only one hurt is usually bad and you have many ways to heal up a bit in the early game (get a Doran's Shield, start with health pots, get a Philosopher Stone), spamming it when the AD carry is hurt but he can safely lifesteal is usually bad, but it works on two people (cool for, you know, 2v2 situations in bot lane), gives an aura, stacks up Power Chord, and contributes to her being a lane dominating machine who not only heals up, but can also efficiently deal damage and initiate fights, something that wins games more than a passive, reactory heal or silence.
has less cooldown, is untargettable, and heals about as much as an autohit? Sorry not a holy grail for me. the powerchord effect is great though... I agree with that. Rather have Nami's for the sake of being double edged and thus offering more utility

play more games
*slow clap* wow really great comment. It's not like I have played close to 500 games with supports or anything *whistles*

Laudandus

2013-09-11, 02:21 PM

The teamwork op video bothered me a lot too. There was just a pretty blatant disregard for even the most obvious source of bias (the team that is losing rages not because ragers don't win but because ragers only rage when they're losing, and people who win a lot therefore rage less). It's striking because there actually is probably a significant effect that leads people who never rage even when losing to win more - I've noticed in solo queue that most people who clearly rage constantly are better than everyone else in their skill bracket, though like most other solo queue effects it disappears once you reach high diamond.

If you're in bronze, you've never played with a decent anything including Soraka. I've beaten professional players in bot lane many times both with Soraka involved and without, and sometimes playing her. She's terrible right now. She has a small disadvantage in lane, and if she can hold on through laning phase she faces a large disadvantage late game. It's just not a good scene.

Wolf_Haley, I believe! Consider Wukong (http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-winrate&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=bronze).

Eldariel

2013-09-11, 02:26 PM

Think it's possible to get to gold if I can only play on weekends from Bronze III?

Also note to self, grab Trynd to make it easier.

Honestly? Yeah. It's possible. You just need to:
1) Play a lot.
2) Play good.

I don't know your actual skill level but if you are in the Gold brackets, it's possible. If worst comes to worst & season is about to end with you near gold, I'm sure you'll find a duo partner to help you out.

Winthur

2013-09-11, 02:31 PM

(or that seems to be the common sentiment here) And I'm still in Placement. It served as an example of showing that apparently not only bronze and low silver players can't seem to systematically beat her (like in my normals), but high silver and gold as well, countering hte argument that low elo players just don't know how to counter soraka

Bronze, Silver and Gold are all low elos. Also, you are unranked, hence you play mostly normals. If you are matched against Goldies at most in bot lane, then, well... it's low.

I think we have different definitions of cheese... and if not that, different appetites. I like a good gorgonzola or gruyere every now and then :smallamused

I like foreskin cheese

which is why stay-behind-the-minions-while-blitz-has-hook is a viable tactic

Sure, but it still makes sure that you have to be on your toes and be careful of overextending and be wary of losing a pink ward fight because then he has many ways to initiate on you without you even knowing. He can even walk up to you with W and E and hit you and then while you're in air, walk away and hook.

deny them the initiative and making it your own turns tables so to speak.

Soraka just has less tools to do that. She has a ranged autoattack it's all. While removing a ward she can be focused down. You aren't going to walk up to a ward in a brush with a Leona or Thresh inside it, are you?

to be honest a lot of counterpoints people have brought up are adresssed by wards, positioning and experience, not specifically soraka's kit

Well you yourself started with the whole "Blitz and Thresh are easy to deal with, just dodge hooks, and Leonas always tower dive at level 6 for no reason" and implied that enemy supports don't ward.

has less cooldown, is untargettable, and heals about as much as an autohit? Sorry not a holy grail for me.

Heals more often and helps in trades. Sona may not even be great against Soraka (magic resist buff and silence against Q helps Soraka's case), but she brings damage, utility (the slow and the MS buff plus the damage debuff) and a freaking powerful initiation tool to the team which is just more universal and more across-the-board valuable than heals and silence.

*slow clap* wow really great comment. It's not like I have played close to 500 games with supports or anything *whistles*
Well, you're the one who pitied me that in my own thousand or so support games I haven't seen a good Soraka. Sorry that it's just so hard not to condescend when someone has very little to say beyond anecdotes from the depths of Bronze and is being hypocritical to boot. It makes me want to play my favourite game, Legacy of Khaine: Scepter Alistar.

Nadevoc

2013-09-11, 02:57 PM

Okay, last post on the Soraka thing. I'll start by saying this: I'm not claiming Soraka has no use. I'm mostly just really tired of you popping in any time any support is mentioned and going, "BUT SORAKA IS 3000% BETTERRRRRR!"

"Just stay behind minions" is NOT a foolproof plan to not being hooked. A good Blitz will be constantly positioning himself such that he can hook through openings or his ADC will CREATE openings. The only way to always remain safely behind your minions is by zoning yourself, in which case Blitz has already won.

Sona's heal IS targettable (it targets itself, but using extremely predictable algorithms). Yes, it's a lot less than Soraka's but it's on ONE THIRD the cooldown. You're really, REALLY underestimating what that means in terms of lane sustain.

I never said proplayers are sheep, non-pro palyers are sheep (especially bronze, silver and low gold). They worry much more about which champion counter which (despite that being bollocks at that level of play) and what champion is played by which pro and who is a fanboy of whom. This sounds condescending, but real all the same (along with everyone yelling "pickorder is sacred! We shoudl worship it as our god!")

Most folks I've run into bronze through gold actually care very little about counterpicks. They just say "It's okay, <champ> OP" or "It's okay, I'm OP on <champ>". I also run into mostly folks who discuss a bit and then revert to pick order in cases where multiple people want the same role, not simply going "PICK ORDER PICK ORDER PICK ORDER". So... I'm really not sure where you're coming from. Your anecdotal evidence is entirely opposed by mine.

True, it is a risk, but only endgame when you have stocked up on (I hope) ruby sightstone and Locket improving your tankiness. It's usually when focus is on carries and bruiser. then you be sneaky.

I can't remember the last support game I've finished with a Locket, even when my team was extremely far ahead and I had tons of objective and assist gold. I find it confusing you feel it's safe to assume you'll end up with one, ESPECIALLY while also claiming to completely outpink your opponent.

Most supports end game with boots, ruby sightstone, philo (or not; it seems to be preference now), and wards. That's it.

I find it insulting that you think I'd just by a pink and not know how to use it to eliminate other wards or at least place it comeptently. If a person can't do this as a support (or ping their carries that they should reposition becuase of blitz in brush) something is done wrong.
I find it insulting you think you can dismiss my points by saying "But I can just pink the bushes and it's fine" when one of Soraka's huge issues is that she's TERRIBLE at all-ins so any decent opposing support can simply prevent you from doing so because you have to walk relatively close to the ward to clear it and then the other team just jumps your face.

Soraka is ranged and despite her low base ad she can annoy forcing leona to either go all-in oir leave the ward be. This is getting very game specific though depending on botlane comp and buys at the start of the game
Actually, for the first ward she can't. Leona insta-kills the first ward put in her bush.

And after that? "Forcing Leona" to all-in? I think you mean LETTING Leona all-in.

to be honest a lot of counterpoints people have brought up are adresssed by wards, positioning and experience, not specifically soraka's kit
And a ton of your points are "I don't care that the other support's kit is way better in this situation, just completely outplay them".

hyperbole much? Leona is one of the few champs that can competently towerdive and gtfo again. It's not done constantly, but I see it done once/twice every game with decent results. Ofcourse she won't dive solo or without carry/jungle support that stands to common sense.
You literally said you ALWAYS expect the Leona to dive at 6-7 when Leona generally SHOULDN'T dive at 6-7, only in specific circumstances. Then you claimed that in the majority of times (which translates to over half the time) the carry won't follow. That means you're expecting the enemy to HUGELY MISPLAY OVER HALF THE TIME and just GIVE YOU KILLS. I'm not employing hyperbole here (though I often do). In this case, I'm straight up responding to what you said.

Socratov

2013-09-11, 03:02 PM

Bronze, Silver and Gold are all low elos. Also, you are unranked, hence you play mostly normals. If you are matched against Goldies at most in bot lane, then, well... it's low.

I like foreskin cheese

Sure, but it still makes sure that you have to be on your toes and be careful of overextending and be wary of losing a pink ward fight because then he has many ways to initiate on you without you even knowing. He can even walk up to you with W and E and hit you and then while you're in air, walk away and hook.

Soraka just has less tools to do that. She has a ranged autoattack it's all. While removing a ward she can be focused down. You aren't going to walk up to a ward in a brush with a Leona or Thresh inside it, are you?

Well you yourself started with the whole "Blitz and Thresh are easy to deal with, just dodge hooks, and Leonas always tower dive at level 6 for no reason" and implied that enemy supports don't ward.

Heals more often and helps in trades. Sona may not even be great against Soraka (magic resist buff and silence against Q helps Soraka's case), but she brings damage, utility (the slow and the MS buff plus the damage debuff) and a freaking powerful initiation tool to the team which is just more universal and more across-the-board valuable than heals and silence.

Well, you're the one who pitied me that in my own thousand or so support games I haven't seen a good Soraka. Sorry that it's just so hard not to condescend when someone has very little to say beyond anecdotes from the depths of Bronze and is being hypocritical to boot. It makes me want to play my favourite game, Legacy of Khaine: Scepter Alistar.

You know what, you win. Congratulations. I'm gonna concede it all before either or the both of us type things we don't mean to eachother resulting into a nasty situation ruining everyone's fun. I'll retreat to my deep end of the bronzepool where I'm obviously going to be placed and enjoy my maphack software dreaming dreams of grandeur. Chapeau et adieu.

Anarion

2013-09-11, 03:19 PM

You know what, you win. Congratulations. I'm gonna concede it all before either or the both of us type things we don't mean to eachother resulting into a nasty situation ruining everyone's fun. I'll retreat to my deep end of the bronzepool where I'm obviously going to be placed and enjoy my maphack software dreaming dreams of grandeur. Chapeau et adieu.

You could do that...or you could see if you can join some games with a bunch of mumblers and see how Soraka or any other champions you want to try work in different contexts with people of varying skills. I've found myself laning ADCs against gold people several times when I play games with mumblers, as the Elo spread is pretty high.

mrcarter11

2013-09-11, 03:28 PM

Just as an end note to the rake thing since I've been working all day. I believe it of valid note that you are currently 1-1 with soraka, and that lost happened to a thresh support. Now of course there isn't anything to suggest you didn't win lane and then lose game, but I feel it's still a point that should be mentioned.

Godskook

2013-09-11, 03:46 PM

There was just a pretty blatant disregard for even the most obvious source of bias

Actually, since this isn't raw data and their methodology for producing these numbers wasn't included in the video, its possible(likely or not) that they did account for various biases and just didn't explain how they did that within the video.

A thread discussing the statistical validity of the video with Lyte is something I'd find fascinating.

(the team that is losing rages not because ragers don't win but because ragers only rage when they're losing, and people who win a lot therefore rage less).

I have been watching my own games and I can assert that very clearly, people start raging before games are lost. Maybe not every time and maybe not every player, but often enough that you can't dismiss raging as only being the effect, rather than the cause of a losing position.

It's striking because there actually is probably a significant effect that leads people who never rage even when losing to win more - I've noticed in solo queue that most people who clearly rage constantly are better than everyone else in their skill bracket, though like most other solo queue effects it disappears once you reach high diamond.

One notable mechanic of raging that would be involved here is that raging takes time, takes energy, and is often a 1st-order action(meaning a person will start ignoring the game itself in order to 'win' the argument). This leaves ragers with less time to play the game or communicate useful information, less energy to play well with, and sometimes deprives them of very important moments of the game(like being caught out of position while responding to someone's comment about "ur mom").

Laudandus

2013-09-11, 04:00 PM

Bethor,

For sure I agree with a lot of your points, and I totally agree with the thesis of the video. Raging in chat is never ever a productive way to win, and not raging is worth probably a league of skill aggregated over all your games. There's actually an interesting vicious-cycle phenomenon that you saw notably with players like Vman7 (and that probably partially explains elo-hell observations) where if you rage a lot you can't actually maintain the rating that your skill indicates you should, so you, in fact, are better than everyone you play with. This causes you to rage a lot more.

Some people definitely start raging before games are lost, but being behind is correlated with losing and both are already going to cause raging, so I don't see how it's possible to separate out the interlocking biases. Maybe they already did, I suppose your point is correct that maybe it's statistically valid.

But honestly, I don't see why it even needs to be statistically valid since anyone with the disposition to care about statistical validity with a video like this is probably already aware that raging causes them to lose.

Renegade Paladin

2013-09-11, 04:18 PM

Except that Sona's heal is only useful out of combat. In combat it's like goggles: Zhey do Nasing!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v350/RenegadePaladin/incorrect4dr.jpg

Here's why:
(Active): Sona sends out healing melodies, healing Sona and the most wounded nearby allied champion and inspiring them to receive additional Armor and Magic Resist for 3 seconds.
At max rank the 3 second boost combined with the aura is +20 bonus armor and MR on cast. Using it well in combat is an exercise in careful timing. Sona is actually a hard counter to Karthus (or at least Karthus' ult); casting W as his channel is finishing can easily save his intended victim between the healing and the sudden MR boost.

(the team that is losing rages not because ragers don't win but because ragers only rage when they're losing, and people who win a lot therefore rage less)
Not actually true. Played a game yesterday where our ADC wanted top and picked Gangplank before finally agreeing to go bot, and even though Zac and Aatrox snowballed hard and we were handily winning the game, he never stopped raging at his support for not putting out enough pink wards. :smalltongue:

Anarion

2013-09-11, 04:44 PM

Some people definitely start raging before games are lost, but being behind is correlated with losing and both are already going to cause raging, so I don't see how it's possible to separate out the interlocking biases. Maybe they already did, I suppose your point is correct that maybe it's statistically valid.

You can separate them out fairly easily with a large enough sample size. When I met Lyte, he made it pretty clear that Riot has a ton of data and that they've been very careful about preserving their data so that they can sift through it for a lot of different variables. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that they can differentiate between games where a team was at a gold deficit and had no raging in chat and other games where a team was at the same gold deficit and raging occurred, then compare the two in statistically significant ways.

toasty

2013-09-11, 04:45 PM

But honestly, I don't see why it even needs to be statistically valid since anyone with the disposition to care about statistical validity with a video like this is probably already aware that raging causes them to lose.

The internet has a long history of using anonymity to rage, bully and harass people, especially in video games. MOBA games are infamous for their cruel community. Some old school gamers think that raging is okay because that's how they always played. A lot of gamers come from communities like the Halo community for the FGC and those communities had a lot more trash talk.

So they think its okay to rage because that's how its always been. I'm a rager and I'm still really good, so obviously people just need to get a thicker skin! Noobs! No, that's not how it is, but they won't necessarily believe you without proof.

IDK, I mean I agree that raging is generally a bad idea, but it seems to me there are a good number of people who don't see what's so wrong about raging.

Furthermore, this video serves as a nice reminder, however dubious the evidence provided is, that raging isn't right. I'll be honest, personally I don't like raging because if I'm raging, I'm not having fun at what is supposed to be my hobby. I don't make money off of League, I won't make money off of league, so I should probably not get mad while playing. So being reminded that trying not to rage is not only good, but will increase your chances of winning is really nice. :)

Cogwheel

2013-09-11, 04:57 PM

ex cathedra

2013-09-11, 05:26 PM

That is absolutely brilliant. Shame you had to deal with that from the rest of the team, though.

Playing from Japan, I have to admit, my immediate reaction was "400 ping is a problem?" Never really thought of it as cause for leaving, I must say.

I played this game with between 180ms and 250ms of latency for the longest time, and for the last few weeks I've been playing on 65ms. The difference is astounding. 400ms is arduous and I suspect that it makes several champions practically unplayable.

Cogwheel

2013-09-11, 05:27 PM

I played this game with between 180ms and 250ms of latency for the longest time, and for the last few weeks I've been playing on 65ms. The difference is astounding. 400ms is arduous and I suspect that it makes several champions practically unplayable.

Probably, yeah. I also play it on a less than ideal computer, which puts it on roughly 20 FPS or a bit under on lowest settings. Can't imagine what the game's like the way it's intended to be played.

Happy Gravity

2013-09-11, 06:38 PM

Some guy added me randomly and asked me to carry him to Gold. Apparently he saw my game in the spectator option on the main menu.

A bit flattering, but I would rather not spend my time doing that.

Silverraptor

2013-09-11, 06:39 PM

So, the verdict is, 4 wins, 4 losses in ranked. Tomorrow I find out where my placement is.

TFT

2013-09-11, 06:53 PM

Some guy added me randomly and asked me to carry him to Gold. Apparently he saw my game in the spectator option on the main menu.

A bit flattering, but I would rather not spend my time doing that.

Yea, you learn to ignore random requests after a point because it's always either people asking you to carry them or teach them. It gets annoying after a while.

Renegade Paladin

2013-09-11, 07:07 PM

I just broke my personal record for largest kill streak in ranked. :smallbiggrin:

It was six. :smalltongue:

Godskook

2013-09-11, 07:23 PM

TechnOkami

2013-09-11, 07:25 PM

Yea, you learn to ignore random requests after a point because it's always either people asking you to carry them or teach them. It gets annoying after a while.

TEACH ME YOUR BLACK MAGIC SUPPORTING SKILLS SENSEI D:

Er... ah, I mean... hi TFT. :smallbiggrin:"

Laudandus

2013-09-11, 07:33 PM

Yea, you learn to ignore random requests after a point because it's always either people asking you to carry them or teach them. It gets annoying after a while.

I accept all the friend requests and add them to a folder called "YOUR FANS", and if they start spamming me I delete them. Maybe it's not the best way to handle it

Re : video, you all made very good points and I guess I should reserve judgment on whether it's accurate or not. Regardless raging isn't a good idea.

Godskook, I think the featured games are just the 5 highest MMR games currently happening, though I have been wrong before.

Red Rubber Band

2013-09-11, 07:52 PM

...though I have been wrong before.

This is quite possibly the understatement of the century :smalltongue:

"At some point in time, in my life, I have been wrong before." :smallwink:

Happy Gravity

2013-09-11, 07:59 PM

What does it take to even get on that list?
I don't know. I don't remember if they show normal games, but I've played only 1 Shen game in ranked recently. Diamond V too good. <_<

Renegade Paladin

2013-09-11, 08:35 PM

I don't know. I don't remember if they show normal games, but I've played only 1 Shen game in ranked recently. Diamond V too good. <_<
They only show normal games when ranked queues are down, I believe.

TFT

2013-09-11, 09:18 PM

What does it take to even get on that list?

As far as I know, there is a hidden aggregate elo for each teams. The system picks the highest 5 games that have started relatively recently(<10 minutes ago seems to be the case) and puts them on the front page. It refreshes every few minutes. Theoretically any mode can show up, but ranked either has a higher priority or has a higher range of elo. That's as much as I know.

Godskook

2013-09-11, 10:21 PM

Re : video, you all made very good points and I guess I should reserve judgment on whether it's accurate or not. Regardless raging isn't a good idea.

This is relevant. (http://www.reignofgaming.net/redtracker/topic/103705-lyte-referencing-teamwork-op)

Laudandus

2013-09-11, 10:25 PM

This is relevant. (http://www.reignofgaming.net/redtracker/topic/103705-lyte-referencing-teamwork-op)

I'd very much like to see whether that data supports some of my pet theories (4 chill dudes + a rager is the best team, multiple ragers is terrible, 5 very friendly/positive players is terrible).

Maybe I should apply to work at the Riot stats department.

abadguy

2013-09-11, 11:05 PM

A question on Alistar WQ: whenever I do it, the target still gets knocked back slightly, is that normal? I seen videos where it looks more like a Malphite Ult i.e no knock back

Also does doing the combo proc dmg from both W and Q? Or only Q?

On other note: Orianna is a really tough lane to lane against. What realistically counters her? Lux?

Winthur

2013-09-11, 11:22 PM

A question on Alistar WQ: whenever I do it, the target still gets knocked back slightly, is that normal? I seen videos where it looks more like a Malphite Ult i.e no knock back

Yeah it's pretty normal, it depends on your reflexes and ping, in general if you can consistently knock people up with it then it's no biggie.

Also does doing the combo proc dmg from both W and Q? Or only Q?
Depends if you hit them with the W part or canceled W with Q early, I guess

On other note: Orianna is a really tough lane to lane against. What realistically counters her? Lux?
Orianna is one of the safest laners, hard to talk about counters IMHO. Post level 6, Kassadin should beat her like he beats every other mage. Most other popular mid laners should be skill matchups with her.

Antonok

2013-09-11, 11:28 PM

On other note: Orianna is a really tough lane to lane against. What realistically counters her? Lux?

Pre-6 is hardest since she has a good early game. Anything with a gap closer due to fairly low defense or high mobility since shes skill shot reliant is good though.

For mid I'd say Diana (post 6) or Fizz (Trickster) are decent choices. Her in a duo top is only a problem if you're solo cause she can harass without needing to turret dive.

Godskook

2013-09-11, 11:40 PM

For mid I'd say Diana (post 6) or Fizz (Trickster) are decent choices. Her in a duo top is only a problem if you're solo cause she can harass without needing to turret dive.

Duo top is an artifact of pre-30 play that goes away as you get better(mostly).

Silverraptor

2013-09-11, 11:55 PM

This is relevant. (http://www.reignofgaming.net/redtracker/topic/103705-lyte-referencing-teamwork-op)

I like that last post.

They let the scientists out of the cave once in a while.

Time's up. Back to the Cave!

Joran

2013-09-12, 01:39 AM

The Koreans are coming! (http://www.gamespot.com/news/locodoco-forms-south-korean-team-with-quantic-gaming-to-aim-for-north-american-lcs-6414364)

The first all-Korean team is coming over to try to qualify for the NA LCS; it includes noted players Woong (formerly of Azubu Frost) and LocoDoco (formerly of CLG). Should be interesting.

P.S. This is already the case for Starcraft 2. Some Koreans come over to WCS America because they couldn't cut it in Korea.

abadguy

2013-09-12, 02:28 AM

The Koreans are coming! (http://www.gamespot.com/news/locodoco-forms-south-korean-team-with-quantic-gaming-to-aim-for-north-american-lcs-6414364)
The first all-Korean team is coming over to try to qualify for the NA LCS; it includes noted players Woong (formerly of Azubu Frost) and LocoDoco (formerly of CLG). Should be interesting.

This should be a good test for the NA scene if they do eventually qualify to play.

Eldariel

2013-09-12, 02:43 AM

I accept all the friend requests and add them to a folder called "YOUR FANS", and if they start spamming me I delete them. Maybe it's not the best way to handle it

I used to try that but I ran into the 300-friend-limit fairly quickly. Just saying, probably not sustainable.

Legoshrimp

2013-09-12, 03:08 AM

P.S. This is already the case for Starcraft 2. Some Koreans come over to WCS America because they couldn't cut it in Korea.

That isn't really the reason why. 5 of the top 9 players, in terms of WCS points, are from the America region. Most of the Koreans in WCS America are on foreign based teams. In the round of 8 of the last WCS finals 4 of the players where from America, 3 from Korea and 1 from Europe. Just saying the reason that the Koreans in WCS America are there isn't because they are bad, many of them are considered to be some of the strongest players currently.

Seems interesting, any idea what the actual rules for teams playing in the LCS is?

mrcarter11

2013-09-12, 03:30 AM

It calls out the exact rules in the link given.

Commenting on the eligibility of Quantic’s Korean team qualifying for the North American LCS, Riot Games eSports Manager Nick Allen cited the three conditions each LCS player must meet. In addition to being at least 17 years of age, the player “must submit proof that, at the time of any LCS-affiliated match, he/she will be (a) legal resident of a country in their region, and (b) work-eligible in the United States”. Players cannot be an employee of Riot Games.

At least I think that's what you were asking about, if not, pardon me.

Laudandus

2013-09-12, 03:34 AM

I used to try that but I ran into the 300-friend-limit fairly quickly. Just saying, probably not sustainable.

There is a high turnover rate in the YOUR FANS folder

Legoshrimp

2013-09-12, 03:52 AM

Hullabaloo

2013-09-12, 05:41 AM

This is relevant. (http://www.reignofgaming.net/redtracker/topic/103705-lyte-referencing-teamwork-op)

As we all know, correlations do not imply causation.
That is not true (that all people know it), and would have been nice if they pointed that out in their video, or in the main comments with it. They imply causation the whole time. The point of the video is to make people stop raging, and play nice, and supply bogus stats to back it up.

For example, in one analysis we took a set of players and codified their chat logs using an advanced language model in Champion Select Lobby before games have even started. That just tests if the person is a ****, not if they are raging. Raging is a direct response to someone playing bad

Talesin

2013-09-12, 06:02 AM

What do you guys think of cloth5.com (http://cloth5.com). I know i'm fanboying a little as i'm writing for them but overall as a site do you have any comments or critiques?

I personally prefer the site viewed on a mobile rather than a browser as I believe it was actually designed for this purpose, ie no huge bandwith sucking pictures and the layout as a whole. I've spoken to our designer but I don't think he's going to change that any time soon because we get strong hits from mobile users.

PersonMan

2013-09-12, 06:32 AM

That just tests if the person is a ****, not if they are raging. Raging is a direct response to someone playing bad

I get the feeling you have a different definition of raging than some people.

Why? Because to me, raging is raging, it doesn't matter if it's in response to a bad play, or anything else.

Mid died and you say "omfg noob"? Raging.
Top is building differently than you would and you call them stupid for it? Raging.
Enemy jungle isn't warded and you flip out at your support? Raging.

There's no just being a jerk vs raging divide for me.

Eldariel

2013-09-12, 07:18 AM

There is a high turnover rate in the YOUR FANS folder

I find it easier to just decline everything unless I know the person from somewhere, or genuinely wanted to add him from a game/whatever.

Krazzman

2013-09-12, 07:28 AM

Talesin

2013-09-12, 07:53 AM

I had some days off from lol and kept thinking about what to do. I played some ARAM the last few games and I have to say... I'm not really able to focus on a single champ anymore. I still think most of the ones I use are cool but I doubt that I have that much fun with Vlad as my main.

It happens. I still want to buy the champs I don't currently own, which is about 15 or so, just because "I don't own a good X" even though I probably own all champions of that type except for the one I want to play in that game.

IIRC you're still below 30, so just have fun and experiment with champions. Learn what you like and dislike and practise that on your way up. Once you get to 30 then you might want to try and shrink your champion pool for ranked games but outside of that you might as well play whatever catches your eye.

Similar with other Champs. Thinking about learning Support and Warding but can't really do this in bot games due to their nature.

Well you can still practise warding, as in placing wards during the lane phase but it is largely a waste. I still find support as one of the most fun roles to play. You won't get recognition for it but your influence on the game is huge.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-12, 07:58 AM

Warding has helped me a lot against bots... it has saved my bacon a lots of time (specially against Lux), though normally I am the one warding the bot lane (even though I am jungling) .

Olinser

2013-09-12, 08:15 AM

Krazzman

2013-09-12, 08:16 AM

Warding has helped me a lot against bots... it has saved my bacon a lots of time (specially against Lux), though normally I am the one warding the bot lane (even though I am jungling) .

Yeah but Talesin actually said it. It's a waste. In one game I placed around 5 wards with Support Blitzcrank, set my ADC up for around 5 Kills of which he actually gave me 2 and said sry for everyone he got. 2 In the Bush going to Midlane, 1 in the bush on botlane each and one near enemy bluebuff. It was... weird. After that I warded the enemy base because we pushed so hard... I think I had a Sightstone, boots and some manareg thing.

So far I have tryed: Soraka as Support and AP Soraka (in ARAM) with some support. Support Crank, Nami and Tresh as support and from that set I really only liked Supportcrank so far (Nami has lot's of Knockups and that Damage-Heal-Skillshot and I don't really like how she played at least in aram).

But I still have Janna and Zilean that I could try as support, I really liked Zileans Ult for this, his Slow and the nature of his bombs seemed rather nice in ARAM. Also I should have enough IP for Lux or Sona, maybe Leona.

Jungle is one thing I don't like and won't do again. As well as general Roaming or Splitpushing. I like to be on my lane and maybe leave the lane to help on another lane without really splitpushing.

toasty

2013-09-12, 08:49 AM

IDK how I feel about the all-Korean team coming to NA. I mean, ever since people mentioned it was a possibility I had a feeling it would happen, but it seems very frustrating to me. At least Woong and Loco are players that are well-known and Loco has personality--a primary reason a lot of people in SC dislike the "Korean invasion" was that it often seemed that these were "faceless" Koreans, who always used a translator, never streamed and never showed any personality. I somehow doubt this will be how Quantic's team will behave, especially with the way Riot does interviews and specials with all their LCS teams.

I'm still keeping my finger's crossed that next season there will be 10 or 12 teams instead of 8. Mostly just because I'd love to see coL and TBD in the Pro league, but I don't want to see Curse or Coast kicked from the league(though tbh Coast getting relegated doesn't seem the worst thing for them. There seems to be a pretty strong Amateur scene now). I think if Curse gets demoted the team might disband, and I bet SV will retire if that happens, which, honestly, might be a good thing for him, but will still make me sad.

Talesin

2013-09-12, 08:55 AM

Yeah but Talesin actually said it. It's a waste. In one game I placed around 5 wards with Support Blitzcrank, set my ADC up for around 5 Kills of which he actually gave me 2 and said sry for everyone he got. 2 In the Bush going to Midlane, 1 in the bush on botlane each and one near enemy bluebuff. It was... weird. After that I warded the enemy base because we pushed so hard... I think I had a Sightstone, boots and some manareg thing.

Well it seems like you've got the theory down. Plenty of good places to ward on most maps but its knowing, and I guess most of that is learning, where and when to ward. Sadly you can only learn than in PVP games but I enjoy PVP much more than I do against bots.

So far I have tryed: Soraka as Support and AP Soraka (in ARAM) with some support. Support Crank, Nami and Tresh as support and from that set I really only liked Supportcrank so far (Nami has lot's of Knockups and that Damage-Heal-Skillshot and I don't really like how she played at least in aram).

Every support is different, which is a good thing, but they also play differently depending on the match up. Nami's a fun character but if you miss your Aqua Prison then you can have a hard time in lane both defensively and offensively. Nami in ARAM is quite different to Nami as a support because she excels at 2v2 lanes rather than 5v5 where she can easily be destroyed by damage.

Blitz is less of a defensive support but requires you to hit hooks, which can be difficult if the enemy know what they're doing. He's still one of my favourite supports because you can get ahead and really push your advantage to the point where the enemy ADC is almost useless.

But I still have Janna and Zilean that I could try as support, I really liked Zileans Ult for this, his Slow and the nature of his bombs seemed rather nice in ARAM. Also I should have enough IP for Lux or Sona, maybe Leona.

Zilean isn't popular as a support in the current meta, though there's no real reason for him not to be. Janna is still my all time favourite support. She has a great mix of skills for gank enabling, keeping your AD carry alive and excels at keeping people safe. She can struggle with some offensive pressure but she is perfectly viable as a support and is extremely useful if the enemy team has a lot of characters who dive for your squishier teammates.

Jungle is one thing I don't like and won't do again. As well as general Roaming or Splitpushing. I like to be on my lane and maybe leave the lane to help on another lane without really splitpushing.

Jungling is really a strange thing in league and in a lot of ways you need the right rune set up before it becomes enjoyable if you don't know what you're doing. That's actually one thing you can try in bot games. Just pick a champion who is a good jungler and give it a go. Learn buff times (they respawn after 5 minutes) and little niches like observing other lanes for gank opportunities.

Overall I'd say you should give normal games a go.

Hullabaloo

2013-09-12, 09:20 AM

I get the feeling you have a different definition of raging than some people.

Why? Because to me, raging is raging, it doesn't matter if it's in response to a bad play, or anything else.

Mid died and you say "omfg noob"? Raging.
Top is building differently than you would and you call them stupid for it? Raging.
Enemy jungle isn't warded and you flip out at your support? Raging.

There's no just being a jerk vs raging divide for me.

No I agree, but those are things you rarely see in the chat room before a game. Granted I have not played nearly as much as everyone else here, but outside of some 'ugh you are taking that summoner skill' or 'i want top, no i want top' there is only a small share of raging in the entry lobby. Thats why I'm saying that using 'rage language' in the lobby vs Win/loss record is not a great statistic.

Krazzman

2013-09-12, 09:31 AM

Overall I'd say you should give normal games a go.

There comes the time constraint.

I have a quite limited amount of time due to other stuff and as such I don't really like to invest 60 minutes in a Game that I could then have lost (experience from most normal games). Most times I just get my FWotD, If I have really much Time on my hands I do ARAM till I have my FWotD (around 50% win chance so far).

Darth Mario

2013-09-12, 09:49 AM

No I agree, but those are things you rarely see in the chat room before a game. Granted I have not played nearly as much as everyone else here, but outside of some 'ugh you are taking that summoner skill' or 'i want top, no i want top' there is only a small share of raging in the entry lobby. Thats why I'm saying that using 'rage language' in the lobby vs Win/loss record is not a great statistic.

"I wanted that role"
"Why are you playing that bad/unpopular champion?"
"Teemo? Seriously?"
"I refuse to support"
"We have a nontraditional lane"
"You banned the champ I wanted"
"You didn't ban the champ they wanted"

All fairly common reasons to rage into pick chat.

Hullabaloo

2013-09-12, 10:00 AM

"I wanted that role"
"Why are you playing that bad/unpopular champion?"
"Teemo? Seriously?"
"I refuse to support"
"We have a nontraditional lane"
"You banned the champ I wanted"
"You didn't ban the champ they wanted"

All fairly common reasons to rage into pick chat.
Agreed, but a very biased sample if that is your main independent variable.

Talesin

2013-09-12, 10:05 AM

There comes the time constraint.

I have a quite limited amount of time due to other stuff and as such I don't really like to invest 60 minutes in a Game that I could then have lost (experience from most normal games). Most times I just get my FWotD, If I have really much Time on my hands I do ARAM till I have my FWotD (around 50% win chance so far).

Yeah that's understandable. ARAM is a fun way to play this game. I don't take it seriously and find things like ultimate bravery to be a good way to spend time messing around with friends.

Cogwheel

2013-09-12, 10:09 AM

Zilean isn't popular as a support in the current meta, though there's no real reason for him not to be.

I feel like Zilean's main contribution is being horrible in every single way.

I mean that in the best possible way, mind you. I'm not saying he's bad, I'm saying he's hateful. But so much silly fun (AP Zil, anyway).

Winthur

2013-09-12, 10:30 AM

Zilean isn't popular as a support in the current meta, though there's no real reason for him not to be.

Well, I enjoy playing the terrorist as a bot laner once in a blue moon and he's fun, but there's a few things that I'd say matter:
1: He kind of lacks sustained damage in lane. He has okay autos and his bombs send people into "a bomb! (http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/050/843/2iazjuv.png)" mode because the burst damage hurts but in prolonged fights he is iffy.
2: He kind of can't initiate fights much. Or peel for that matter. He has only one form of CC in the form of his slow that has quite some cooldown on it until Rewind is leveled up, and you want to level up Time Warp last. It's a single target boost/debuff, which is admittedly strong. But it's single-target.
3: His mana costs kinda suck. When he gets his ult he has to keep a ton of mana at an emergency to be able to use it.
4: He folds easily to aggressive melee laners until he has level 6 and even then I'd say he has problems due to the aforementioned mana costs.
5: No sustain

He works, IMHO, from being an early game nuisance in the lane, and then late game he becomes a Chronoshift-bot. His ult can be pretty useful and annoying to an enemy team but keep in mind it's not that big of a deal without any AP, but it's still pretty functional as an aid towards your (hyper?)carry.

I think the main deal about supports currently is that people want them to engage and/or disengage and Zilean kinda can hardly do this.

Janna is still my all time favourite support. She has a great mix of skills for gank enabling, keeping your AD carry alive and excels at keeping people safe. She can struggle with some offensive pressure but she is perfectly viable as a support and is extremely useful if the enemy team has a lot of characters who dive for your squishier teammates.

yay spreading Janna love

you're the best

Godskook

2013-09-12, 10:52 AM

That is not true (that all people know it),

I....I find that you want to make this a point to be overly antagonistic.

and would have been nice if they pointed that out in their video, or in the main comments with it.

You wanted them to do that, but its better in terms of the video's actual goals to have not cluttered it with useless background statistical information, especially information that's part of the general knowledge among those of us who actually care about statistical accuracy.

They imply causation the whole time. The point of the video is to make people stop raging, and play nice, and supply bogus stats to back it up.

The goal of the video wasn't to 'prove' their point scientifically but rather to create a 'propaganda' piece using their fully cooked data. There's nothing we've been shown that can legitimately lead us to the conclusion the stats are 'bogus', in large part because Lyte really wasn't intending to initially show that information in this context; the math wasn't the point.

That just tests if the person is a ****, not if they are raging. Raging is a direct response to someone playing bad

No, raging is something people do when the game isn't going their way, and by 'way', I don't mean 'winning', I mean tons of various subtleties, some of which can happen regardless of which team is objectively ahead.

NineThePuma

2013-09-12, 10:59 AM

"OMG, you are the worst cho ever, can't land skill shots" said every time I'm caught and running from the enemy's entire team because my team picked a fight while I wasn't with them. Said from the top lane Katarina that picked into Riven. :smallsigh:

At least we won by being so god damn tanky that I eventually just went "**** it" and walked past the team fight after blowing my load and chomping on Riven to attack the nexus. It's like "Oh god, cho is attacking u- wait, why is he just walking past me? Oh, ****, better try to kill ezreal, wait why is the game over... CHO'GATH"

Hullabaloo

2013-09-12, 11:00 AM

I....I find that you want to make this a point to be overly antagonistic.

Not to be antagonistic. Its just one of those things that get me. People put out something they want to prove ('dont be rude in game') which can be a vary valid point, but then they throw useless, relevant, or just plain misleading statistics to validate themselves.

This weakens the argument, and realistically people should question a point that needs misleading/lies to support it.

...its better in terms of the video's actual goals to have not cluttered it with useless background statistical information, especially information that's part of the general knowledge among those of us who actually care about statistical accuracy.

I understand the goal is to get the point across, but they are the ones that put in all the statistical information, its just incorrect information. Better to leave it out and make correct points about how being rude is bad. Moreover most of what I'm saying is not general knowledge, but most of those stats we probably taking at face value by a large share of the people watching it. I'm just saying, be truthful when making their point.

NineThePuma

2013-09-12, 11:03 AM

Speaking as a player, if my team contains someone who is being a raging *******, even if that raging is not specifically targeted at me, I tend to cease wanting to win. I'm willing to lose a game, even an "important" ranked one, and the more he rages the less I care about that game.

So, in personal experience, I can say that raging loses games.

Antonok

2013-09-12, 12:34 PM

Don't know if bad luck or premade, but ominous either way (and we did end up getting completely stomped that game)

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g430/Antonok/WTF_zps68173cbd.jpg (http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/Antonok/media/WTF_zps68173cbd.jpg.html)

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-12, 12:39 PM

That... is awesome, I'm sorry you lost that match, but really... I would be hard pressed to feel bad after facing that team. Yes I am basing that on the skins alone.

MCerberus

2013-09-12, 01:05 PM

Anarion

2013-09-12, 01:18 PM

I understand the goal is to get the point across, but they are the ones that put in all the statistical information, its just incorrect information. Better to leave it out and make correct points about how being rude is bad. Moreover most of what I'm saying is not general knowledge, but most of those stats we probably taking at face value by a large share of the people watching it. I'm just saying, be truthful when making their point.

They didn't lie. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but neither does it imply lack of causation. They gave you statistics that tend to support their point and might have some causation, and then Lyte explained as background info that, in fact, they've looked at a lot of data and a variety of stats and continue to get the correlation when going at it from multiple angles, which actually does imply causation, though it doesn't prove it.

ex cathedra

2013-09-12, 01:27 PM

pool party renekton is objectively the best skin ever released

Silverraptor

2013-09-12, 01:37 PM

pool party renekton is objectively the best skin ever released

Will that skin be available all year and possibly go on sale, or just for a limited time only?

heronbpv

2013-09-12, 02:24 PM

^Hope it'll be just like Pool Party Ziggs and remain available normaly. I do plan on getting it after purchasing the gator, somewhere in a not-so-far future...

Also, Pool Party Graves is cool, but Pool Party Leona wacking things with an umbrella is just too awesome :smallbiggrin:
Even better if you recall after a teamfight, as it makes it look like leona didn't care about it at all xD

Legoshrimp

2013-09-12, 02:37 PM

heronbpv

2013-09-12, 02:47 PM

'Looks like the sun...
...<recall>...
shined upon this battlefield' - CSI Leona

xD

Olinser

2013-09-12, 02:50 PM

Will that skin be available all year and possibly go on sale, or just for a limited time only?

Generally when they are limited they state up front how long they will be available. I haven't seen anything saying the pool party skins are short-term, so I'd tend to believe they are permanent.

I also note that it specifically says that Graves skin is 1350 RP, and is on sale for 975 RP for the next two weeks.

They also are selling a pool party bundle for 2 weeks.

So looks like they're permanent, but cheaper for 2 weeks if you want the bundle.

Ivellius

2013-09-12, 03:47 PM

They didn't lie. Correlation doesn't imply causation, but neither does it imply lack of causation. They gave you statistics that tend to support their point and might have some causation, and then Lyte explained as background info that, in fact, they've looked at a lot of data and a variety of stats and continue to get the correlation when going at it from multiple angles, which actually does imply causation, though it doesn't prove it.

I'm so glad you made this point because it seems often forgotten when people say "Correlation doesn't imply causation."

The proper response from a social scientific perspective is to ask, "Why are these things related?" and continue inquiry from there.

Grytorm

2013-09-12, 04:38 PM

Hello again. I've been having problems with my client. It isn't opening properly and freezes during the first step with the League of Legends image in the middle of the screen. This started a while ago but I have not tried to fix it until today when I uninstalled the client and reinstalled the Launcher. The problem did not change.

Dusk Eclipse

2013-09-12, 05:23 PM

Yeah me too, heck I can't even start the Launcher, as soon as I open it I recieve a message that reads "Windows had a problem with PVP.Net Patcher and stopped working"

brutii

2013-09-12, 07:09 PM

I'm at work right now, so I'm unable to take a screenshot or anything, but when that happens to me often another box will pop up in my taskbar but not pop up on the screen. It says something along the lines of "Another instance of the launcher is already running. Would you like to end that process?" or some similar thing. I just hit yes and it works fine.

Might be your issue, might not. Hope it helps.

Also, the Pool Party skins do not appears under the limited time section of the shop, so I imagine they're here to stay.

TechnOkami

2013-09-12, 08:00 PM

So after getting thee Pentakills in a close succession of each other, I think my laptop couldn't handle the raw amount of success I was feeling at League, and playing the game now is almost impossible. It's purely a "I have an old spankin' laptop designed for 24/7 Business use, and I've overwhelmed the CPU to the point that within the consistent span of 5-10 seconds, my FPS bounces from 60 to 6 and back to 60.

I basically won't play League with these frustrating as all hell circumstances, and I'll be home for a while as I look around for a laptop that'll handle my needs.

That said, I'm not that tech-savvy as to what exactly I need in a laptop. I opened a thread in Friendly Banter to take people's suggestions.

Hum... maybe by the time I come back I'll have enough RP to buy Pool Party Renekton/Lee Sin, and hell, even Battlecast Skarner if it comes out by then.

Edit: I can ARAM, that's about it.

Krazzman

2013-09-13, 03:58 AM

Currently thinking about buying Leona, is she on the free trial now? Or soon?

Cogwheel

2013-09-13, 04:38 AM

Currently thinking about buying Leona, is she on the free trial now? Or soon?

"Soon" is impossible to judge. Good news is, she's free now.

Give her a try. Best support to ever not be Taric.

Krazzman

2013-09-13, 05:38 AM

"Soon" is impossible to judge. Good news is, she's free now.

Give her a try. Best support to ever not be Taric.

NICE NICE NICE :D

Then... I will try her out tonight.
Any recomms for building her?

I really like her artwork from what I saw and the funny thing that she is more manly than Taric.

EDIT:
Also can she be something else than Support?

Cogwheel

2013-09-13, 05:43 AM

NICE NICE NICE :D

Then... I will try her out tonight.
Any recomms for building her?

I really like her artwork from what I saw and the funny thing that she is more manly than Taric.

EDIT:
Also can she be something else than Support?

Taric runs at people and tanks hits while blowing up their armour, being indestructible and bashing them with a massive hammer, you know.

And no, not really. At least, it won't work half as well. Build standard support stuff for the most part, and if you luck out and become hugely wealthy for some reason (or it's ARAM, more plausibly), build like a tank

She really likes Draven and Twitch for lanemates, by the way.

Talesin

2013-09-13, 05:44 AM

Zilean Discussion

I agree with you in that Zilean probably isn't the best support. I wouldn't play him in bot lane ever because I don't think he brings anything that other people can't do better. Most of the damage in bot lane comes from extended trades or poking. Zilean does little to nothing to mitigate damage in extended trades while others have heals, shields, knock ups, stuns etc.

His bombs do a nice amount of damage but the mana cost is obscene, which it needs to be because its more or less impossible to avoid so has little to no counter play.

He works, IMHO, from being an early game nuisance in the lane, and then late game he becomes a Chronoshift-bot. His ult can be pretty useful and annoying to an enemy team but keep in mind it's not that big of a deal without any AP, but it's still pretty functional as an aid towards your (hyper?)carry.

I think the main deal about supports currently is that people want them to engage and/or disengage and Zilean kinda can hardly do this.

I never actually realised just how much health his ult grants. 600/850/1100 is a huge amount and it's just a shame he won't be able to build much AP on a support's salary to buff up the 200% AP ratio.

In terms of engage/disengage you're right. The move speed buff/slow is nice but I wonder how much distance the enemy carry would be to move during the duration of the slow relative to say Taric's stun or Zyra's root in a similar time frame. Of course stuns/roots have the added bonus of keeping a target closer to the incoming ganker.

yay spreading Janna love

you're the best

Janna OP!

TechnOkami

2013-09-13, 05:45 AM

EDIT:
Also can she be something else than Support?

Inb4 McDougal mentions Jungle Leona.

Eldariel

2013-09-13, 07:03 AM

Also can she be something else than Support?

With her passive, she's really designed for duolaning since she cannot proc it herself and thus misses out on a lot of her damage without an ally nearby. As such, if you'd want to play her as anything else the optimal solution would probably be duolaning with her as the farming champion.

It could work but it would certainly be weird and you'll need someone you know to lane with you since pubs probably aren't down for it. Jungling has the edge of her ganks gaining the full benefit of her abilities and indeed being fairly strong but her clear is poor. She can sololane but again, she misses out on much of her power this way. With an autoattack reset and reasonable cooldowns, Trinity Force is a pretty good damage item on her if you must go that route, but generally even if you do get farm you want to go quite tanky aura-y since her kit is kinda like that.

She doesn't scale well by AP nor AD so only tanky items really give you good value (and items that give you flat stats that don't depend on your base stats), and since she's quite tanky by nature thanks to her W you don't need that many defensive stats so auras is the best way to make her tanky while also increasing her utility. Sunfire is an obvious "damage" item if you play some farmy Leona but obviously I strongly suggest against it in the standard support role due to gold considerations.

Krazzman

2013-09-13, 07:21 AM

So she should start Philo into sightstone?
Then Ward like there is no tomorrow? Going 0/14/16? or 0/9/21?

Then Pick up locket of the Iron Solari(or how it is called) and Zeke's Banner? Then the Crown that gives movespeed to everyone around you? Or what else should she go for?

heronbpv

2013-09-13, 07:25 AM

@Leona:
This is a video sample of Leona top: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DuXxOKb1yk

The idea is, as shown in the video:
1)Learn how to use her AA cancel with her Q in order to gain advantage in lane trades (which makes her hit 3 times instead of 2).
2)Be aggressive early (lvls 1-3), as few melee tops can match her kit. She'll be in trouble against ranged tops though (if they now their game).
3)Buy early armor, so she can towerdive with eclipse (her W) as early as lvl 5.
4)Grab a Sheen, as it synergises well with her 3-hit combo.

Of course, don't expect to accomplish everything above in just one game. It'll take time (I'm trying it too myself)! xD

And lastly, as some people already mentioned, she's not optimal in a solo lane because of her passive, but I should point that, with a kit like that, she doesn't need in some circunstances. In top at least.

Winthur

2013-09-13, 07:37 AM

So she should start Philo into sightstone?

I'd say Sightstone takes priority in most lanes. That is because Leona is a laner who doesn't seek prolonged fights. Especially past level 6, where she has a hugely damaging combo and stunlock. So what you want to do is stack up HP ASAP.
Philosopher Stone gives you paltry sustain. You don't need mana regen - Leona's modus operandi tends to be "blow all of your burst on the enemy and recall to recuperate wounds and possibly buy new items from the possible gold you got" - as in, all-ins. Her kit doesn't even eat that much mana.
Philo might be alright to get for a later Shurelya's, though, but I'd not prioritize it.
Try getting a Doran's Shield before or after Sightstone in a lane which has enough poke to be annoying; it's a pretty cost-efficient item and can really help in those all-ins you want to pull off.

Then Ward like there is no tomorrow? Going 0/14/16? or 0/9/21?

I'd go 1/13/16 - you don't need the 14th point in defense tree. The offense point is spent on the Exhaust/Ignite mastery (since you're gonna run Flash/Exhaust or Flash/Ignite). 0/9/21 gives her primarily movement speed she doesn't necessarily need due to her gap closer and long range on R; I'd rather have Unyielding and Block.

Then Pick up locket of the Iron Solari(or how it is called) and Zeke's Banner? Then the Crown that gives movespeed to everyone around you? Or what else should she go for?

Basically it depends on the game and your team's needs. Locket is a very good item. Against heavy auto teams you can get a Warden's Mail (though it's a bit of a luxury item). Zeke's kind of hard to complete for most supports because of awkward build path and it's not that advisable if your team isn't heavy AD.
And sometimes you'll have games where you'd rather keep up the Oracle and wards in order to score picks against teams that otherwise would trump your initiation. Leona is decent at picking people off with all that CC.

So basically as always in League the build fluctuates. The items you listed are good on support Leona. You might consider Twin Shadows (the AP is kind of meh on Leona, but the magic resist and movement speed can be helpful and the active is good for picking people off). You can just get a Giant's Belt to complement the resistances on your W.

TechnOkami

2013-09-13, 08:00 AM

Cogwheel

2013-09-13, 08:12 AM

...Top lane Leona works?

My god. The bots were right all along.

Lix Lorn

2013-09-13, 08:42 AM

I have a friend who plays leona top...
Even he isn't sure how it's working.
He went 23/10/18 last night...

NineThePuma

2013-09-13, 08:47 AM

Winthur

2013-09-13, 08:56 AM

Leona is kind of sort of ridiculously sticky and really tanky on a SUPPORT budget. Giving her a REAL budget, where she can afford more than Sighstone + Aegis? Holy crap, she's going to be nearly impossible to kill.

Except there's one problem with the fact that innately she doesn't do a whole lot of damage without other people's involvement and in the late game her natural damage falls off as well.

She is also full melee, doesn't push too well and is all-in to the point of pain.

So yeah, your Leona might have a ton of health and resistances, but she's still a CC bot at heart. And her resistances won't even be that helpful when late game comes into play and she gets vaporized by sustained damage carries with penetration items.

When her skills are off cooldown, Leona just kind of walks around waiting for the cooldowns to come back. You kind of want 40% CDR to alleviate this.

So why not just pick a Cho'Gath or a Singed? Cho'Gath has better wave clear and more AoE CC plus a very effective finisher, and he has a lot of sustain throughout the laning phase. Singed is a jerk who splitpushes very well, deals a lot of damage over time and has very respectable CC.

And I didn't even mention Zac or Malphite, top lel.

Having 200+ resistances and a ton of health just kind of loses its glamour after penetration items and % health effects come into play.

Cogwheel

2013-09-13, 08:56 AM

McDouggal

2013-09-13, 09:50 AM

EDIT:
Also can she be something else than Support?

She can

Inb4 McDougal mentions Jungle Leona.

DAMN YOU.

Jungle Leona is a bit of cheese I worked with for a while. The basic idea is that you have quite possibly THE hardest gank pressure of a non-stealth champion. Properly applied, your passive does ~100 extra damage, plus the lockdown that lasts 1.5-2.5 seconds PLUS laner CC.

Rush a Sunfire cape, it increases your clear time hugely.

Darth Mario

2013-09-13, 11:24 AM

Jungle Leona is a bit of cheese I worked with for a while. The basic idea is that you have quite possibly THE hardest gank pressure of a non-stealth champion. Properly applied, your passive does ~100 extra damage, plus the lockdown that lasts 1.5-2.5 seconds PLUS laner CC.

Rush a Sunfire cape, it increases your clear time hugely.

Zinc (from the mumble servers) and I played around with this cheese for a little while ourselves. Her main weakness is that her clear speed, even with sunfire, is abysmal. She will often end the game with less gold than her team's support, even when doing well.

That said, her early gank pressure is indeed quite absurd. We were able to use it most effectively with weak-early/carry-everything-late champions like Kassadin to get them through their strugglebear laning phases with an advantage, at which point you have a fed Kassadin, who cares if Leona has gold.

NineThePuma

2013-09-13, 11:29 AM

When did Sejuani stop being crazy op?

Darth Mario

2013-09-13, 11:32 AM

When did Sejuani stop being crazy op?

She... stopped?!

Why does no one tell me these things! :smallannoyed:

9mm

2013-09-13, 11:34 AM

She... stopped?!

Why does no one tell me these things! :smallannoyed:

they toned down the ult a bit, so she stopped having perfect initiation on a wiff. She's still just as strong if you can hit the broad side of a barn though.

TechnOkami

2013-09-13, 11:35 AM

I will forever miss the cute boar Bristle used to be.

NineThePuma

2013-09-13, 11:38 AM

I prefer new bristle, because new bristle is a bear.

TechnOkami

2013-09-13, 11:43 AM

I prefer new bristle, because new bristle is a bear.

I, with Bear Cavalry Sejuani, scoff at the poor excuse of a boar. Ganondorf made a better pig than bristle did.

NineThePuma

2013-09-13, 11:45 AM

To be fair, they've said multiple times that the original animation rigging for Bristle was causing problems. They could NEVER have made Bear Cavalry Sejuani without changing the rigging.

TechnOkami

2013-09-13, 11:50 AM

To be fair, they've said multiple times that the original animation rigging for Bristle was causing problems. They could NEVER have made Bear Cavalry Sejuani without changing the rigging.

...so change the rigging. Make it look closer to the original splash art and remove the yellow-orange filter they overlayed onto the skin. It'd up the skin price for sure, but we would have gotten an even better skin for her. I'd gladly be riding a giant pig instead of a monster pig/bear/beast they turned Bristle into.

Cogwheel

2013-09-13, 11:54 AM

Am I the only one who wants to see Sejuani riding a moose?

TechnOkami

2013-09-13, 11:56 AM

Am I the only one who wants to see Sejuani riding a moose?

*thinks about it*

After that mental image? No.

:smallbiggrin:

Silverraptor

2013-09-13, 12:06 PM

they toned down the ult a bit, so she stopped having perfect initiation on a wiff. She's still just as strong if you can hit the broad side of a barn though.

How did they tone down the ult?

NineThePuma

2013-09-13, 12:10 PM

...so change the rigging. Make it look closer to the original splash art and remove the yellow-orange filter they overlayed onto the skin. It'd up the skin price for sure, but we would have gotten an even better skin for her. I'd gladly be riding a giant pig instead of a monster pig/bear/beast they turned Bristle into.

Changing the rigging would have meant making ANY FUTURE SKINS FOR SEJUANI Legendary.

TechnOkami

2013-09-13, 12:12 PM

Changing the rigging would have meant making ANY FUTURE SKINS FOR SEJUANI Legendary.

And I personally have no problem with that.

NineThePuma

2013-09-13, 12:12 PM

Thankfully you're in the minority.

Nadevoc

2013-09-13, 12:20 PM

Changing the boar model has opened up the possibility of swapping it out for different animals more readily.

Unfortunately, it's done that by sacrificing quality. The boar doesn't look like a boar. The bear doesn't look like a bear and is forced to have that hideous spiked lower jaw armor thing (which looks so bad to me that I can't buy the skin JUST because of that).

I really would've preferred they stuck with an actual boar and just said that any time they swap out her mount, it WILL cost more - and for a very understandable reason.

9mm

2013-09-13, 12:47 PM

How did they tone down the ult?

smaller AOE; weaker slow and duration on the wiff; and I believe a range nerf as well.

Ivellius

2013-09-13, 01:10 PM

Am I the only one who wants to see Sejuani riding a moose?

*thinks about it*

After that mental image? No.

:smallbiggrin:

Absolutely not.

Silverraptor

2013-09-13, 01:23 PM

So... Finished my last placement matches. And the verdict is...

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt255/silverraptor_photo/Screenshots/Placementmatch.png (http://s617.photobucket.com/user/silverraptor_photo/media/Screenshots/Placementmatch.png.html)

SILVER II!!! AWWWW YEAH!!!

Godskook

2013-09-13, 01:45 PM

But did you make the cool kids league? Only the best of the best Silver players are in Vlad's Infiltrators.

Olinser

2013-09-13, 02:12 PM

Am I the only one who wants to see Sejuani riding a moose?

I'd be more interested in seeing a Sejuani model with her riding Volibear. Or maybe Rengar.

Silverraptor

2013-09-13, 02:14 PM

But did you make the cool kids league? Only the best of the best Silver players are in Vlad's Infiltrators.

Yes, I'm in Vlad Infiltrators with everyone else.:smalltongue:

heronbpv

2013-09-13, 02:21 PM

^Congratz Silverraptor. Hopefully if I ever finish my placement matches I'll end up at least in silver... ._.'

McDouggal

2013-09-13, 03:37 PM

Zinc (from the mumble servers) and I played around with this cheese for a little while ourselves. Her main weakness is that her clear speed, even with sunfire, is abysmal. She will often end the game with less gold than her team's support, even when doing well.

That said, her early gank pressure is indeed quite absurd. We were able to use it most effectively with weak-early/carry-everything-late champions like Kassadin to get them through their strugglebear laning phases with an advantage, at which point you have a fed Kassadin, who cares if Leona has gold.

I never had quite that problem. The trick was to just leech laner XP after a successful gank, and only go for buff camps to secure that XP.

Also helped that I ran GP10 quints.

Also, remember the double auto reset on her Q. It ups her burst quite significantly.

Joran

2013-09-13, 03:54 PM

I'd be more interested in seeing a Sejuani model with her riding Volibear. Or maybe Rengar.

Urf, she needs a skin where she rides Urf.

JKTrickster

2013-09-13, 05:18 PM

tyckspoon

2013-09-13, 05:37 PM

What runes match this type? I was thinking MgPen, Armor, MR, and maybe whatever Quints?

Since he's using autoattacks and Q's resets for his damage, I'm thinking AD red and possibly Quints as well. That or movespeed Quint.

Siosilvar

2013-09-13, 05:56 PM

Definitely AD. Between the two resets on Q (which the guy in the video learns about 15 minutes in) and terrible scaling on everything else into lategame, AD is going to give you the most early game power to get ahead. Hpen and Mpen won't matter because you won't be doing terribly much damage anyway by the time they're more effective than the AD is.

EDIT: Oh, and W gives you free resists anyway. Health is better for you early; if you can get Giant's Belt on your first back instead of Chain Vest or 2xCloth (for Sunfire or Randuin's, respectively), do so.

JKTrickster

2013-09-13, 11:23 PM

So what would you build though? I am not sure his build was the best and he was winning really hard - I wonder what you would build if you were behind.

tyckspoon

2013-09-13, 11:33 PM

Cogwheel

2013-09-13, 11:37 PM

ChaosOS

2013-09-14, 12:08 AM

Moonflair's 'ranged only' only applies to the tenacity. Oh, and moonflair cost up by 300g. But this is dominion only, so if you are playing dominion you should get a hextech sweeper on Leona.

JKTrickster

2013-09-14, 12:39 AM

Traditional CDR/Tank, I'd guess; complete the Sunfire's sooner, get a Spirit Visage, maybe build an Iceborn Gauntlet instead of Triforce. You know, take your lane income and do what you would with a supporting Leona if you actually had money. You'd give up any pretense of doing damage, but you'd still be, you know, Leona.

I was certainly thinking that but just wondering - she doesn't really benefit from the passive on spirit visage. Would Aegis -> Locket be any better?

I"m assuming that she likes to build health early, then stack more health and resists on top of her tanky frame right?

40% CDR - 20 from Spirit Visage, 10 from IBG, and....Locket maybe?

Or should I aim for some kind of Randuins/Other Tanky Health item first?

Krazzman

2013-09-14, 01:29 AM

since i bought her... after trying her out of course.

Game ended like 1/2/11. Have to learn warding a bit more and still problems with the camera.
What do you mean with Q-Resets? Playing yesterday I didn't really saw it happen but I start with WEQR, is this right or wrong?
I went with my ADC runes (AD reds, AD quints, Armor and MRES) and started with Rejuv Bead wards and went for an early philo. At the end I had Dorans Shield, CDred Boots, The Group movement thing out of Philo and the Sightstone.

Any recommendations for ARAM and SR?

Nadevoc

2013-09-14, 01:37 AM

Explanation of Leona's double Q reset:

Leona's Q, like most "next auto-attack" modifiers, resets her auto-attack. That means that if you auto someone, then immediately Q, she auto-attacks immediately rather than waiting for, basically, her auto-attacks 'cooldown' (as determined by attack speed).

Unique to Leona is that if you then right-click the opponent immediately after she Qs them, it actually resets the animation AGAIN. This allows her to get three auto-attacks (including the one with her Q's stun and bonus damage) off nearly instantaneously. It's very handy during early levels when even a supports non-buffed auto-attack is a large amount of damage. For example, she has 55 unbuffed AD at level one. Level one Q is 40 bonus damage. So at level one she has a burst of 195 (three autos + Q bonus) that stuns the enemy - very impressive.

Later in the game the usefulness of this falls off since her AD won't be that impressive, but it always gives her some extra damage, and it's very nice for killling wards; it lets her easily destroy a ward placed near here before it can fade into invisibility.

Winthur

2013-09-14, 04:33 AM

I start with WEQR, is this right or wrong?

You start with either Q or E so that you have some pressure at level 1, and E is, IMHO, better for level 1 invades while Q can give you more laning pressure (people get screwed when facechecking brushes and you can use the trick Nadevoc explained above to kill wards). At level 2 you get Q or E depending on which one you didn't level at 1. Now you have your most basic damage combo and can probably start exerting some aggression. Then at level 3 you get W, have all your basic spells available, making you tanky, giving you lots of CC and allowing to proc your passive a lot.

And then you max R>W>E=Q (I prefer E, some people prefer Q; E gives more AoE damage and lets you close gaps more often, Q lets you stun people more often in fights)

tl;dr: Typical skill order is Q->E->W->W->W->R, R>W>E=Q

PersonMan

2013-09-14, 06:49 AM

Playing more Ranked, I realized what all those old logic questions in school were good for.

You know the type. There are five types of ice cream, one of each, five people each have different preferences, who do you give what to make everyone happy, etc.

Being the one to take everyone's listed lane preference and turn it into a 5-person list of roles is great. It helps us get past the 'derp around doing nothing' phase into the planning one.

Although I still have a problem with mute first picks who can apparently say absolutely nothing while banning and just call a lane and lock in, messing up the rest of the team's plan.

Olinser

2013-09-14, 09:04 AM

MCerberus

2013-09-14, 09:57 AM

That pisses me off so much. Sure, OK, you get to pick first. But if you're going to instalock in a role, SAY something when somebody else calls it.

And dear lord, do not first pick a solo lane... unless it's a 'perma-ban' that slipped through.

Looking at you Shen.

endoperez

2013-09-14, 10:52 AM

And dear lord, do not first pick a solo lane... unless it's a 'perma-ban' that slipped through.

Looking at you Shen.

Counterpicks aren't that important at lower rankings, if countering your pick requires a champion who's rarely seen and tricky to play.

Picking a champion who has several obvious counters as a first-pick can be risky.

ex cathedra

2013-09-14, 11:35 AM

And dear lord, do not first pick a solo lane... unless it's a 'perma-ban' that slipped through.

uh, first picking a solo lane is absolutely fine.