duskblade or warmage?

[geonova]

i've recently aquired the PHB2 and i want to know which is better duskblade or warmage. i also normally play rogues, but both classes mix combat and casting, which is something that i always wanted to do. (i know rogues can do this too, but i'm a face/skillmonkey, not a combat rogue)

[Waker]

Well, better is somewhat dependent on what it is that you want the class to do for you. Warmages are better at spellcasting, while Dusblades are better at straight combat.
If you strictly adhere to the tier list, Duskblade is a T3 class whereas Warmage is T4.

[Firechanter]

Given the choice between these two, I'd take the Duskblade, every time. I'm not even so hot on the Arcane Channeling, but the class has some decent utility spells, which are what in fact makes it T3.

The Warmage otoh has virtually nothing in the field of utility, only the ever-same blasting spell in different colours over and over again. The only redeeming quality is the ability to learn some stuff like Tiny Hut. Terribly one-sided and utterly boring, in my humble opinion of course.

[Arc_knight25]

I'm going to vote Warmage. Even though it lacks the utility of a Duskblade the amount of damage you can push out is quite good. You'll have a spell to damage whatever DR/immunity comes at the party. Blasting can get dull, but it can also be alot of fun. Just be sure to boost your Spell penetration so your spells won't fizzle on creatures SR.

Also allows you to go casting in heavy armour by the end of it. So Mithril fullplate when you can wear medium armour.

[Lord Haart]

They are different. Namely, Warmage doesn't do what some people think it does. It is a class about taking Fireball Sorcerer blasting that WotC are so eager about up to eleven by exclusion of all other things. It is not a class that can combine spellcasting or melee (or that likes to be in melee at all). Duskblade, on the other hand, is a straight gish-in-a-can, magic-empowered front-line melee guy, comparable to psychic warrior and clericzilla.

Insofar as the "power" of a class can be discussed in D&D, warmage chassis is far weaker by itself, although it still can be brought up to Tier 1 with shenanigans such as getting all cleric spells on its list (Rainbow Warsnake).

[Gwendol]

I'd say the Duskblade better combines melee combat and spellcasting, while the Warmage is more of a combat sorcerer. The Warmage knows all spells on his list, which kind of gives more versatility (although the focus of spells is narrow).

Right now, I'd pick Warmage (have never played one, but would like to try).
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2816

[Psyren]

Neither (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) :smalltongue:

Kidding aside - in all honesty, I think they're both T4. All they really do is damage. Though with Advanced Learning, the Warmage can at least pick up some utility via Resilient Sphere or Crushing Hand etc.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Duskblade is widely regarded at being Tier 3, maybe low tier, but tier 3 none the less.

Though if Magus is on the table I too would go with it.

[Psyren]

Duskblade is widely regarded at being Tier 3, maybe low tier, but tier 3 none the less.

I know, but so was Warblade until recently that got called into question. Neither of them can do all that much besides deal damage and survive, though they're both very good at doing that.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Do you have a link to that discussion by any chance?

[Psyren]

Do you have a link to that discussion by any chance?

I've seen a couple of threads here, and here's Endarire's (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=9bpi5po2c8nck9h8l9hhkf83q6&topic=6479.0) over on MMB as well.

[Greenish]

Though with Advanced Learning, the Warmage can at least pick up some utility via Resilient Sphere or Crushing Hand etc.There's also Eclectic Learning for picking up non-Evocation spells.

[Edit]:
here's Endarire's (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=9bpi5po2c8nck9h8l9hhkf83q6&topic=6479.0) over on MMBhttp://static.kontraband.com/sites/kontraband/files/images/gallery/teaser_image/2013/05/22/-1.jpg

[Firechanter]

I know, but so was Warblade until recently that got called into question. Neither of them can do all that much besides deal damage and survive, though they're both very good at doing that.

sorry for a bit of OT, but Warblades and Crusaders still are T3. Sure, they can't do much outside of combat, but _in_ combat they can fill various roles, either switching on the fly or even doing two things at the same time. Warblade is Striker+Leader and Crusader Defender+Leader. That is enough for T3.

[Psyren]

[Edit]:http://static.kontraband.com/sites/kontraband/files/images/gallery/teaser_image/2013/05/22/-1.jpg

What's the image? It's blocked here at work.


Sure, they can't do much outside of combat,

That's sort of the problem. If you look at every other T3 (Factotum, Binder, Totemist etc.), they can most assuredly do many things both inside and outside of combat, even if they need a day or two to deal with a specific challenge. The Warblade doesn't have much but the former. Even the Psywar has OOC utility that the Warblade can't hope to match. (Swordsage however is T3 I agree.)

This isn't to say that Warblades are weak - even Uberchargers are T4 after all - just that they're not as versatile. They have more trouble infilitrating the king's dungeon, surviving on a desert island, navigating a trap-filled dragon's lair, solving a murder mystery etc.

[Firechanter]

That's not really the requirement for T3, however. The description reads Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area.. The Warblade falls into the first category. Nowhere does it say that the capabilities have to be in and out of combat. Being able to do two very different shticks in combat also meets the requirements.

Honestly, I think that people suddenly wanting to deny the adepts their T3 status comes from a kind of power creep of their expectations. Shutting down uberchargers is easy, shutting down a Warblade with ~10 different maneuvers in addition to his feats is an entirely different matter.

[Grod_The_Giant]

While Warblades and Duskblades may be a touch over-tiered (yes, they can't do much more than fight, but they have a ton of options within a fight... call it Tier 3.5-- more versatile than a T4, but not quite to T3 level), I'd put Warmage in the same boat. It's honestly not as "all fireball, all the time" as people say, especially at low levels-- while they do have all the blasting spells, they have a decent number of battlefield control, debuff, and save-or-die spells. Pyrotechnics, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Acid Fog, Blade Barrier, Circle of Death... sure, it's not that many, but it ain't bad. Take a one-level dip in Sandshaper and you've got access to pretty much everything you'll ever need as a spontaneous caster.

Anyway.

geonova, you want the Duskblade. The Warmage is an artillery piece, not a melee warrior.

[Lord Haart]

They have more trouble infilitrating the king's dungeonMountain hammer the walls.


surviving on a desert islandIHS thirst, hunger and sunburns. If native life of any kind is present, beat it into submission. Wait 'till plot happens.

navigating a trap-filled dragon's lairMountain hammer the walls.

solving a murder mysteryHire a third-level adept with the money you've earned looting the king's dungeon and the dragon's lair. Let the spellcaster do what nobody else is really good at in this system. Or have that speaking-with-deceased feat, which is not restricted by class, and ask the victim for a verbal portrait. Then mountain hammer.

[Snowbluff]

Duskblade. If I wanted a warmage, I'd play a beguiler with some feats for blasting.


What's the image? It's blocked here at work.

It's Ron Burgundy saying"that escalated quickly." I would say get back to work, but I am messaging from astronomy class.:smalltongue:

Iron Heart Surge. Being able to knock out AMF is great by itself, but they also get a few other buffs.

[Firechanter]

Let the spellcaster do what nobody else is really good at in this system.

This is the core of the issue at hand. Some people nowadays seem to think that if you can't do everything, you can't be T3, when they are in fact thinking about T1.

[Psyren]

Mountain hammer the walls.

It's not "infiltrating" if the whole castle hears you come in, so no.



IHS thirst, hunger and sunburns.

Even by the RAWtarded standards that this ability generally conforms to, none of those conditions actually has a "duration."



Mountain hammer the walls.

See (a), and add in the time it'll take to actually do that. Even ignoring hardness, caves have plenty of HP.



Hire a third-level adept

Hirelings aren't part of the tier system :smalltongue: Even a Monk or Truenamer can just hire somebody better.

[DustyBottoms]

As others have said, Duskblade is a better melee fighter and arcane channeling plus swift casting is fun. Warmage is a pure blaster unless you're high level and go rainbow warsnake.

TLDR go Duskblade for a straight-up melee caster.

[Snowbluff]

It's not "infiltrating" if the whole castle hears you come in, so no. Neiter is the Knock or Shatter, but I don't hear people complaining about Wizards.


Even by the RAWtarded standards that this ability generally conforms to, none of those conditions actually has a "duration."
It's not RAWtarded. RAW is the opposite of retarded, and those effects are not affected, by RAW.

Now, being able to recover from other effects or canceling an area spell are quite handy.


See (a), and add in the time it'll take to actually do that. Even ignoring hardness, caves have plenty of HP.
It's just stone, mate. Something ly that can be described as a wall isn't that hard to smash. Now, something else would not like likely be broken.

[Lord Haart]

See (a), and add in the time it'll take to actually do that.

It's highly improbable that the dragon (or his treasures, for that matter) will die from old age, and getting him up an age category just means more experience, right?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Quite frankly, both classes are pretty bad. Duskblade is stronger early game as there's no daily limit on how much damage he can do, whereas Warmage tends to run out of gas quickly in the low levels. I'd say Warmage has more potential due to access to 9th level spell slots. The two classes have completely different playstyles, so it's pretty much comparing apples and oranges. Both can make use of the same tricks to expand their spell lists:

Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster: You get a spellbook which you've already put spells into, which strongly implies you could add more spells to it the same as a Wizard does. You normally couldn't cast those spells with either of those classes, but Versatile Spellcaster specifically states it allows you to cast any spell you know of a particular level using your spontaneous spell slots. A shrewd DM would make you have the spellbook open to the spell in question while casting it, limiting its usefulness in combat, but it still adds unmatched versatility to both classes.

Runestaff + UMD: You can emulate a class spell list with UMD at DC 21, and you only need to make the check 1/day when you attune yourself to the runestaff when preparing spells. For the rest of the day you can cast the Runestaff spells as though they were on your class spell list, regardless of what class list they originally appeared on. Make the Runestaff an Ancestral Relic to have absolute control over what spells it contains and absolute freedom to change what spells it grants you.

Arcane Disciple + Runestaff: You normally need a minimum Wis score to cast Arcane Disciple spells and can only cast one of each level each day. It happens to add the spells to your arcane class spell list as well though, so if you gain them as spells known via a different method, i.e. a Runestaff, then you're no longer hindered by the minimum Wis score and you get up to a 3/day casting limit on each spell.

Arcane Preparation + Good/Exalted: Allows you to cast Sanctified spells from BoED, but most of the spells are extremely situational or just not very useful.

Sand Shaper, Mother Cyst: Each gives you access to a specific list of spells with varying degrees of usefulness.

A few options are more useful to a Warmage than to a Duskblade, and they're actually considerably stronger than any of the above: Rainbow Servant (preferably reflavored to Phoenix Servant) grants you access to the entire Cleric spell list as early as character level 11. Warmage gains them all as spells known, while most other classes have to separately learn individual spells from the list. Mage of the Arcane Order allows you to draw spells known from a community pool containing pretty much every core Wizard spell, though there's no definitive answer as to whether you could actually cast non-Warmage spells using this ability.

[Psyren]

Neiter is the Knock or Shatter, but I don't hear people complaining about Wizards.

Come now.

1) Knock is much quieter than battering down every door or wall in your way.
2) Both of those spells can be Silenced or muffled for added stealth.
3) Wizards have far more tools in their toolbelt than those two spells anyway.



It's not RAWtarded. RAW is the opposite of retarded, and those effects are not affected, by RAW.

I know they're not, that's the problem with his post.

I see what you're saying, but you can't deny there are plenty of other silly uses for the maneuver.



It's just stone, mate. Something ly that can be described as a wall isn't that hard to smash. Now, something else would not like likely be broken.

Seriously? Unworked stone has 300hp per ft. of thickness. The dragon can move its entire hoard and draw a sign saying nothing but "LOL" by the time you break through.

[ArcturusV]

Personally I've never had much of a desire to play a Duskblade. As far as Spell and Sword style goes I always preferred the (Admittedly weaker mechanically) Ranger and Paladin. A lot more support for it. More iconic imagery (Matters to me). I'm familiar with them and going out of the gate I already have rough ideas of how I want to play it.

Warmage... I favor over duskblade. I actually WANT to play a warmage because sometimes you just want to chuck fire and lightning and throw missiles. It's not bad. The class skill list gives some options to some fun images like treetop fireball snipers being something I could manage. And while I know it's not as good mechanically as a Wizard, or even a Sorcerer, perhaps even a Shugenja... I still get a kick out of the idea and I think that matters at the end of the day.

Plus side on the "Which is better"? More options to reach out and smite someone at range, rather than slogging on foot trying to get to melee usually says a lot to me. Doesn't matter how hard you can hit and how often if by the time you finally get your enemy in your hand I could have killed them three times over from 600 feet away.

[Snowbluff]

Come now.

1) Knock is much quieter than battering down every door or wall in your way.
2) Both of those spells can be Silenced or muffled for added stealth.
3) Wizards have far more tools in their toolbelt than those two spells anyway.
1) 0 Hardness is butter. I am not sure how much noise a material that can't resist the attack would make. Lockpicks and Knock still make noise, and how much is up to the DM.
2) Shatter can not. It exploded the lock. Poor Warlocks. :smalltongue:
3) Of course. They are T1.



I see what you're saying, but you can't deny there are plenty of other silly uses for the maneuver.
I am not one who agrees with the silliness of its uses. Most of those are not RAW. Now, the silliness of throwing yourself into a wall of fire and going "Argh?" :smalltongue:



Seriously? Unworked stone has 300hp per ft. of thickness. The dragon can move its entire hoard and draw a sign saying nothing but "LOL" by the time you break through.
Why is the dragon retreating? Why is he differentiating the thumping from anything else.

[Psyren]

1) 0 Hardness is butter. I am not sure how much noise a material that can't resist the attack would make. Lockpicks and Knock still make noise, and how much is up to the DM.

By RAW, simply casting a spell would be 20 DC higher to overhear than smashing through a wall. (-10 vs. +10.) And again, there is no way to sunder a door quietly without magic.



Why is the dragon retreating?

Maybe because someone smashing through the mountain to his lair could be making a little bit of noise :smalltongue: Also scent, scrying, blindsense, tracking etc. If your Warblade is sneaking up on a dragon, it's deaf or dead.

[GutterFace]

Warmage!

Less MAD...

AND....if you disarm a Duskblade they are not nearly as capable (see aslo; sunder, trip...)

oh yea and they have to get up close, and until level 11 they cant do more than 1 attack. (with a channeled spell)

[John Longarrow]

Having played a warmage up till lvl 12 (then as a cohort to his original cohort after some fun with a deck of many things), I'd have to go with Duskblade.

Warmage is fun at lower levels, and with reserve feats becomes a monster at dealing out damage close in. The problem is they become more limited when range and CR increases as they don't have near the versatility of a sorcerer or wizard in getting spells that work with your group. This becomes problematic when you do have a full caster or two in the group. If I was the only caster in the party, I may have had more fun though.

I had to get Ray of Stupidity to remain useful with the party (though I did score one of the best "WINS" when I took out the purple worm on round 1. Accidentally dropped it on another party member though) and around the time we found the deck I was looking at retiring the character anyway.

For Duskblade, you are looking at a melee-centric build anyhow. Toss in Dragon Slayer, Abjurant Champion, a couple levels in initiator classes, and you'll stay competative as a front liner.

[Person_Man]

I'm a big fan of the Warmage, in concept. When new players want to play a spell caster, what they generally think of is "how can I blow stuff up with magic." And I think the rules should provide them with an easy way of doing that, while still being flexible.

I do have a nifty homebrew Warmage fix (which I never bothered posting, because I made it a while ago for 1 player, and the Warmage isn't very popular. Might as well throw it up here though:

Person_Man's Warmage

d6 hit dice

The Warmage's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana, architecture and engineering, dungeoneering, history, local, nobility and royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha).

4 Skill points per level

A Warmage is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and all shields (except tower shields).


Warmage
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Max spell Level
1st | + 0 | + 0 | + 2 | + 2 | Warmage Spells, Armored Mage | 1st
2nd | + 1 | + 0 | + 3 | + 3 | Warmage Edge |
3rd | + 2 | + 1 | + 3 | + 3 | | 2nd
4th | + 3 | + 1 | + 4 | + 4 | |
5th | + 3 | + 1 | + 4 | + 4 | | 3rd
6th | + 4 | + 2 | + 5 | + 5 | Bonus Feat |
7th | + 5 | + 2 | + 5 | + 5 | | 4th
8th | + 6 | + 2 | + 6 | + 6 | Bonus Feat |
9th | + 6 | + 3 | + 6 | + 6 | | 5th
10th | + 7 | + 3 | + 7 | + 7 | Bonus Feat |
11th | + 8 | + 3 | + 7 | + 7 | | 6th
12th | + 9 | + 4 | + 8 | + 8 | Bonus Feat |
13th | + 9 | + 4 | + 8 | + 8 | | 7th
14th | + 10 | + 4 | + 9 | + 9 | Bonus Feat |
15th | + 11 | + 5 | + 9 | + 9 | | 8th
16th | + 12 | + 5 | + 10 | + 10 | Bonus Feat |
17th | + 12 | + 5 | + 10 | + 10 | | 9th
18th | + 13 | + 6 | + 11 | + 11 | Bonus Feat |
19th | + 14 | + 6 | + 11 | + 11 | |
20th | + 15 | + 6 | + 12 | + 12 | Ultimate Evocation |
[/table]

Spells: At first level, the Warmage gains the ability to memorize and cast arcane evocation spells. After 10 minutes of uninterrupted meditation (without the need to rest for 8 hours beforehand), a Warmage may choose to memorize a number of Evocation spells from any arcane caster's base class spell list (Wizard, Sorcerer, Wu Jen, Hexblade, Duskblade, etc, but not prestige classes) equal to their permanent Intelligence bonus (minimum 1).

A Warmage may memorize new Evocation spells whenever he wishes after 10 minutes of uninterrupted meditation, but he may never have more spells memorized then his permanent Intelligence bonus. The maximum spell level that the Warmage can memorize is determined by their Warmage class level (see chart above). The Warmage does not need a spellbook, and does not need to learn new spells. They are intuitively aware of all spells that they are capable of memorizing.

However, the Warmage cannot memorize the same spell more then once at any given time. (He could memorize Magic Missile every time he memorizes spells, but he cannot memorize more then one Magic Missile spell at any given time). Temporary increases in Intelligence (such as those that come from spells, or enchanted items which can be removed or dispelled) do not increase the number of spells a Warmage can memorize.

The Warmage can apply metamagic Feats to their spells, but they modify the maximum spell level that can be memorized. For example, a 5th level Warmage with the Empower Spell Feat (+2 spell level adjustment) could memorize a 1st level level Empowered Spell.

However, other then when they use their Ultimate Evocation ability (see below), Warmage spells cannot benefit from Metamagic Feats that have their spell level adjustment reduced or bypassed. For example, Warmage spells cannot benefit from Metamagic Feats altered by the Arcane Thesis Feat, Divine Metamagic Feat, Sudden Metamagic Feats or magic items, Incantatrix Improved Metamagic prestige class ability, or other similar Feats, items, class ability, prestige class abilities, racial abilities, or effects which alter or bypass the Metamagic spell level adjustment or otherwise grant the Warmage free or reduced cost Metamagic effects.

The caster level for these spells is equal to the Warmage's class level. The Warmage's primary casting attribute is Intelligence. If a spell requires a Saving Throw, it is 10 + 1/2 the Warmage class level + his Intelligence bonus.

Armored Mage: A Warmage reduces the arcane spell failure rate from armor and shields that he wears by a number of points equal to their Warmage class level times 5 percent. (5% at first level, 10% at second level, 15% at third level, and so on up to 100%). The reduction is calculated separately for their armor and shield (if any).

Warmage Edge: At second level, the Warmage may add his Intelligence bonus (minimum +1) to the damage of any Evocation spell that he casts. A single spell never gains this extra damage more then once per casting. For example, a fireball would deal this extra damage to everyone within it's area of effect, but a Magic Missile or Scorching Ray would only apply it to one missile/ray of the Warmage's choice, regardless of whether it is targeted against one or multiple creatures.

If the damage from the Warmage's evocation spell is multiplied (such as on a critical hit), the bonus damage from warmage's edge is also multiplied. If a spell deals damage for more then one round, then warmage's edge is added to the damage each round it is applied.

This ability does not add extra damage to ability scores or anything else other then hit point damage. This ability only adds damage to evocation spells cast by the warmage that deal hit point damage, and not to scrolls, wands, staves, other magic items, or other effects, even if they are evocation effects.

Bonus Feat: At 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th levels, the Warmage gains one bonus Feat of his choice. The Feat must be a metamagic or reserve Feat that the Warmage otherwise qualifies for.

Ultimate Invocation: Once each week when you memorize an evocation spell, you may apply any or all of the Metamagic Feats that you know to that spell without increasing the spell level, with the exception of Quicken Spell and Heighten Spell.

[John Longarrow]

Person_Man,

For your version, how do you determine spell slots? Or can they cast what they have memorized freely without limit?

[Person_Man]

You memorize Int bonus spells, up to the spell level you qualify for. So a 17th level Warmage with 26 Intelligence (+8 bonus) could memorize eight evocation spells of 9th level or lower. It takes just 10 minutes to memorize. (So you basically always have your best spells ready to go, unless you don't have any down time between combats). But you can't memorize the same spell more then once at any given time, non-permanent Int bonuses don't count towards the number of spells you can memorize, I removed metamagic cheese, and they're limited to evocation spells.

[Snowbluff]

By RAW, simply casting a spell would be 20 DC higher to overhear than smashing through a wall. (-10 vs. +10.) And again, there is no way to sunder a door quietly without magic.

Acceptable. Everyone and everything knows someone is messing with the door when it opens, anyway.


Maybe because someone smashing through the mountain to his lair could be making a little bit of noise :smalltongue: Also scent, scrying, blindsense, tracking etc. If your Warblade is sneaking up on a dragon, it's deaf or dead.Scent: No LoE.
Blindsense: A dragon's lair is wider than the range.
Tracking: See Scent.
Scrying: IHS?
XD

I guess the dragon could move towards the noise for blindsense, but other than that I think a Warblade can cover 100 feet with a charge if he's prepper for dragon looting.


Warmage!

Less MAD...

AND....if you disarm a Duskblade they are not nearly as capable (see aslo; sunder, trip...))

Int, Cha Con vs. Str Con Int. :smallconfused:

A Duskblade is more capable in less than perfect conditions. Grapple a DB and he's fighting back. You trip him and he casts Stand. You sunder his weapon (The 20+ hardness one?) he pulls out a GMWed dagger or just uses a touch spell. Grapple a Warmage and... well that's it unless you know some teleportation spells.

[Psyren]

You memorize Int bonus spells, up to the spell level you qualify for. So a 17th level Warmage with 26 Intelligence (+8 bonus) could memorize eight evocation spells of 9th level or lower. It takes just 10 minutes to memorize. (So you basically always have your best spells ready to go, unless you don't have any down time between combats). But you can't memorize the same spell more then once at any given time, non-permanent Int bonuses don't count towards the number of spells you can memorize, I removed metamagic cheese, and they're limited to evocation spells.

I think he was asking, how many uses do you get from those spells when you memorize? Can you cast each one once before you need to do another 10 minute refresh, are they at-will, or something in between?


Acceptable. Everyone and everything knows someone is messing with the door when it opens, anyway.

Not necessarily. If they're not close enough to hear someone speaking and aren't looking at it, Knock will beat the smashy approach stealthwise every time. There's also leaving traces of your passage etc - relocking a door is easy, repairing one that has been battered to flinders not so much.



Scent: No LoE.
Tracking: See Scent.

Scent doesn't require LoE.



Blindsense: A dragon's lair is wider than the range.

That depends. What if you're directly above or below them? And the Warblade wouldn't even know it if he was, because he has no special senses or divinations of his own like other T3s do.



Scrying: IHS?
XD

Nice try :smalltongue:



I guess the dragon could move towards the noise for blindsense, but other than that I think a Warblade can cover 100 feet with a charge if he's prepper for dragon looting.

You can't charge the dragon until after you've (loudly) smashed through the 4-digit-HP-wall.

[Gwendol]

Warmages seem to be more multiclass friendly though.

[Theoboldi]

I'm a big fan of the Warmage, in concept. When new players want to play a spell caster, what they generally think of is "how can I blow stuff up with magic." And I think the rules should provide them with an easy way of doing that, while still being flexible.

I do have a nifty homebrew Warmage fix (which I never bothered posting, because I made it a while ago for 1 player, and the Warmage isn't very popular. Might as well throw it up here though:

Person_Man's Warmage

d6 hit dice

The Warmage's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana, architecture and engineering, dungeoneering, history, local, nobility and royalty) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Use Magic Device (Cha).

4 Skill points per level

A Warmage is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and all shields (except tower shields).


Warmage
{table=head]Level | BAB | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special | Max spell Level
1st | + 0 | + 0 | + 2 | + 2 | Warmage Spells, Armored Mage | 1st
2nd | + 1 | + 0 | + 3 | + 3 | Warmage Edge |
3rd | + 2 | + 1 | + 3 | + 3 | | 2nd
4th | + 3 | + 1 | + 4 | + 4 | |
5th | + 3 | + 1 | + 4 | + 4 | | 3rd
6th | + 4 | + 2 | + 5 | + 5 | Bonus Feat |
7th | + 5 | + 2 | + 5 | + 5 | | 4th
8th | + 6 | + 2 | + 6 | + 6 | Bonus Feat |
9th | + 6 | + 3 | + 6 | + 6 | | 5th
10th | + 7 | + 3 | + 7 | + 7 | Bonus Feat |
11th | + 8 | + 3 | + 7 | + 7 | | 6th
12th | + 9 | + 4 | + 8 | + 8 | Bonus Feat |
13th | + 9 | + 4 | + 8 | + 8 | | 7th
14th | + 10 | + 4 | + 9 | + 9 | Bonus Feat |
15th | + 11 | + 5 | + 9 | + 9 | | 8th
16th | + 12 | + 5 | + 10 | + 10 | Bonus Feat |
17th | + 12 | + 5 | + 10 | + 10 | | 9th
18th | + 13 | + 6 | + 11 | + 11 | Bonus Feat |
19th | + 14 | + 6 | + 11 | + 11 | |
20th | + 15 | + 6 | + 12 | + 12 | Ultimate Evocation |
[/table]

Spells: At first level, the Warmage gains the ability to memorize and cast arcane evocation spells. After 10 minutes of uninterrupted meditation (without the need to rest for 8 hours beforehand), a Warmage may choose to memorize a number of Evocation spells from any arcane caster's base class spell list (Wizard, Sorcerer, Wu Jen, Hexblade, Duskblade, etc, but not prestige classes) equal to their permanent Intelligence bonus (minimum 1).

A Warmage may memorize new Evocation spells whenever he wishes after 10 minutes of uninterrupted meditation, but he may never have more spells memorized then his permanent Intelligence bonus. The maximum spell level that the Warmage can memorize is determined by their Warmage class level (see chart above). The Warmage does not need a spellbook, and does not need to learn new spells. They are intuitively aware of all spells that they are capable of memorizing.

However, the Warmage cannot memorize the same spell more then once at any given time. (He could memorize Magic Missile every time he memorizes spells, but he cannot memorize more then one Magic Missile spell at any given time). Temporary increases in Intelligence (such as those that come from spells, or enchanted items which can be removed or dispelled) do not increase the number of spells a Warmage can memorize.

The Warmage can apply metamagic Feats to their spells, but they modify the maximum spell level that can be memorized. For example, a 5th level Warmage with the Empower Spell Feat (+2 spell level adjustment) could memorize a 1st level level Empowered Spell.

However, other then when they use their Ultimate Evocation ability (see below), Warmage spells cannot benefit from Metamagic Feats that have their spell level adjustment reduced or bypassed. For example, Warmage spells cannot benefit from Metamagic Feats altered by the Arcane Thesis Feat, Divine Metamagic Feat, Sudden Metamagic Feats or magic items, Incantatrix Improved Metamagic prestige class ability, or other similar Feats, items, class ability, prestige class abilities, racial abilities, or effects which alter or bypass the Metamagic spell level adjustment or otherwise grant the Warmage free or reduced cost Metamagic effects.

The caster level for these spells is equal to the Warmage's class level. The Warmage's primary casting attribute is Intelligence. If a spell requires a Saving Throw, it is 10 + 1/2 the Warmage class level + his Intelligence bonus.

Armored Mage: A Warmage reduces the arcane spell failure rate from armor and shields that he wears by a number of points equal to their Warmage class level times 5 percent. (5% at first level, 10% at second level, 15% at third level, and so on up to 100%). The reduction is calculated separately for their armor and shield (if any).

Warmage Edge: At second level, the Warmage may add his Intelligence bonus (minimum +1) to the damage of any Evocation spell that he casts. A single spell never gains this extra damage more then once per casting. For example, a fireball would deal this extra damage to everyone within it's area of effect, but a Magic Missile or Scorching Ray would only apply it to one missile/ray of the Warmage's choice, regardless of whether it is targeted against one or multiple creatures.

If the damage from the Warmage's evocation spell is multiplied (such as on a critical hit), the bonus damage from warmage's edge is also multiplied. If a spell deals damage for more then one round, then warmage's edge is added to the damage each round it is applied.

This ability does not add extra damage to ability scores or anything else other then hit point damage. This ability only adds damage to evocation spells cast by the warmage that deal hit point damage, and not to scrolls, wands, staves, other magic items, or other effects, even if they are evocation effects.

Bonus Feat: At 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, and 18th levels, the Warmage gains one bonus Feat of his choice. The Feat must be a metamagic or reserve Feat that the Warmage otherwise qualifies for.

Ultimate Invocation: Once each week when you memorize an evocation spell, you may apply any or all of the Metamagic Feats that you know to that spell without increasing the spell level, with the exception of Quicken Spell and Heighten Spell.


Doesn't this essentially make warmages worse, considering it takes away several of the few battlefield control spells they get and drastically weakens their spell-list? :smallconfused:
And removing metamagic cheese is just kicking them while they're down. :smalltongue:

As for the actual topic of this thread, I think you should probably take the duskblade. Warmages might be able to wear armor, but they can't really pull off the 'beating things to death' without some multiclassing and specific PrCs. They are what you play when you want to blow things up with fireballs and rain hell down on your enemies, without spending too much time choosing spells.

Duskblades, on the other hand, actually are able to do melee combat, having full BAB and weapon profiencies. And they get to wear armor right away, while a warmage has to wait for the heavier types.

[Tvtyrant]

Warmage. They actually have more than one function, as they get actual battlefield control and debuffs. Pyrotechnics, Shatter, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Ice Storm, Black Tentacles, Cloudkill, Acid Fog, Freezing Sphere, Prismatic line, Sunbeam, and Waves of Exhaustion.

That is before adding the Advanced Learning abilities, which if you pick Dawnburst, Great Thunderclap, Wall of Force and Forcecage/Grasping Hand makes you quite excellent at control and debuffs.

By contrast a Duskblade is really only good at hitting things. Most of its none-hitting things spells are just different ways to get close to something to hit it.

[Larkas]

To be fair, while not the best school by a long shot, Evocation has a few nice utility spells. As I'm posting from my phone, I can't fetch the link for you guys, but there's a fairly extensive GOD Wizard guide that discusses the feasibility of specialization in each of the schools (Was it TreantMonk's? I've no idea...), and the author was actually surprised to find out that Evocation is indeed a viable choice for specialization, maybe even focused specialization.

After going through the guide, I got to agree with the author. Therefore, with smart uses of Advanced Learning, I think that a Warmage's can squeeze some juice from that school, and then just round out his selection with Eclectic Learning. IMHO, it is very much T3, and not that low at that.

[Greenish]

To be fair, while not the best school by a long shot, Evocation has a few nice utility spells. As I'm posting from my phone, I can't fetch the link for you guys, but there's a fairly extensive GOD Wizard guide that discusses the feasibility of specialization in each of the schools (Was it TreantMonk's? I've no idea...), and the author was actually surprised to find out that Evocation is indeed a viable choice for specialization, maybe even focused specialization.Treantmonk indeed (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.msg8049#msg8049).

[Psyren]

It does now thanks to SpC, PHB2 and BoED but it certainly took its sweet time getting there. And they still only get so many Advanced Learnings to spend sadly.

[Larkas]

It does now thanks to SpC, PHB2 and BoED but it certainly took its sweet time getting there. And they still only get so many Advanced Learnings to spend sadly.

Hey, you were the one suggesting Magus, which isn't even 3.5 strictly speaking. :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Hey, you were the one suggesting Magus, which isn't even 3.5 strictly speaking. :smallbiggrin:

That was tongue in cheek! It totally doesn't count! :smalltongue:

[Person_Man]

I think he was asking, how many uses do you get from those spells when you memorize? Can you cast each one once before you need to do another 10 minute refresh, are they at-will, or something in between?

Yes, each spell can be memorized once, cast once, and then you need a 10 minute refresh to choose new spells to memorize. Sorry if this wasn't clearly written, it was something I just threw together for a friend, that I thought might be thought provoking on this thread.



Doesn't this essentially make warmages worse, considering it takes away several of the few battlefield control spells they get and drastically weakens their spell-list? :smallconfused:

My group has access to literally every D&D book published, so limiting a class to arcane evocation spells from every base class actually covers a ton of different effects. Just looking at core, Comp Arcane, and Spell Compendium:

Tons and tons of "blasty" stuff, which is the point.
Battlefield control: Darkness, Creeping Darkness, Resilient Sphere, Wall of Fire/Ice, Wall of Force, Force Cage, Bigby's spells, Ethereal Chamber, Defenestrating Sphere, Reality Maelstrom
Defense: Wind Wall, Fire Shield/Mass Fire Shield
Utility/Niche: Shatter, Contingency, Tiny Hut, Instant Refuge, Wingbind
Gish-y Melee Buffs: Blood Wind, Burning Sword, Flame Dagger, Force Whip, Force Claw, Lightning Blade


And that list took me 3 minutes of cut and paste time to put together. With a few hours to scour though my books, I could come up with a much more potent list.

More importantly, the 10 minute refresh mechanic lets you blast away most or all rounds of in every combat without ever really needing to hold back due to limited spells unless there is a reason in the plot to do so. (You're being rushed/chased, you need to rescue the princess before being executed at noon, etc). This is a stark contrast to most low-mid level casters, who tend to carefully parse out their spells for fear of being left with nothing to do when the time comes, or the worse alternative of casters who blow all their useful spells in one combat and then insist upon resting for 8 hours.

At higher levels, any Tier 1-2 caster will be better off, and I fully admit that. But I was aiming for Tier 3, not another broken caster. And at that point, the list I provided above along with a healthy dose of bonus Feats should give you plenty of different options to work with.



Back on topic, I think the Duskblade/Warmage decision also heavily depends on what level you're playing at. Unless you're using a homebrew fix, Warmage is just terrible at low levels, in that it runs out of spells quickly, and most other casters, it's spells are not "encounter winners." A Wizard can cast Sleep once and basically combat it over. A low level Warmage needs to blast away until it runs out, and then it just stands there useless. At least a Duskblade has full BAB and better weapons to fall back on.

[Larkas]

That was tongue in cheek! It totally doesn't count! :smalltongue:

Hey, I'm okay with it! I always advocate using as many supplements and as much well written 3rd party content as possible! It only adds, not detract, to the game.:smallwink:

[Snowbluff]

Scent doesn't require LoE.
Doesn't it? I would think you could not smell something through solid rock.



That depends. What if you're directly above or below them? And the Warblade wouldn't even know it if he was, because he has no special senses or divinations of his own like other T3s do.
If the dragon can smell him, the Warblade can smell him right back. Hunter's Sense, which can be optimized with Scent based feats. They get blind sense as a stance as well.



Nice try :smalltongue:
Lol. I don't know the ruling, actually. W/e. I don't care enough.



You can't charge the dragon until after you've (loudly) smashed through the 4-digit-HP-wall. WRT.


That was tongue in cheek! It totally doesn't count! :smalltongue:
Yep. Usually I have my tongue stuffed so far up my cheek I feel my cheekbone.

[Urpriest]

So can someone explain why people keep thinking Warmages are gishes? I thought Warmage, as in, guy who slings fireballs and stuff like an artillerist, was a standard fantasy archetype. It's not exactly the sort of thing a normal person confuses with a sword-wielding fighting-caster-type. So why do people confuse them?

[Larkas]

So can someone explain why people keep thinking Warmages are gishes? I thought Warmage, as in, guy who slings fireballs and stuff like an artillerist, was a standard fantasy archetype. It's not exactly the sort of thing a normal person confuses with a sword-wielding fighting-caster-type. So why do people confuse them?

Must have something to do with the "War" part of the name and the usage of armor.

[Person_Man]

So can someone explain why people keep thinking Warmages are gishes? I thought Warmage, as in, guy who slings fireballs and stuff like an artillerist, was a standard fantasy archetype. It's not exactly the sort of thing a normal person confuses with a sword-wielding fighting-caster-type. So why do people confuse them?

I agree with Larkas. And I know this sounds silly, but I think part of it is the Warmage artwork:

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cc20050906a_85425_med.jpg

This screams Gish to me (the little spell, spear, armor, shield, moving forward towards the enemy while casting), even though "artillery mage" is what the class is geared toward. If they had instead had somebody in a robe casting, standing on a hilltop, casting a huge lightning bolt or fireball into a mass of orcs, then people would think artillery.

[Psyren]

Well, the armor and stuff are there because (a) they're drilled in its use so they can be on the frontlines and (b) because they can wear armor they don't train as much in defensive magic.


Doesn't it? I would think you could not smell something through solid rock.

Depends on how solid the rock is really, but unless you emerge on top of him he'll still detect you (even sleeping) once you emerge.

Anyway, hearing is the real problem here.



WRT.

This also doesn't help unless you come out within charging rage. And all the scree and rubble you made from smashing through the walls will likely be difficult terrain anyway, even assuming you have a beeline to it when you emerge (and that, again, he didn't hear you coming somehow.)

[Snowbluff]

Depends on how solid the rock is really, but unless you emerge on top of him he'll still detect you (even sleeping) once you emerge.

Anyway, hearing is the real problem here.
For posterity, what is the listen for hearing that through a solid wall at 150 ft (otherwise the dragon would be able to just blindsense)?



This also doesn't help unless you come out within charging rage. And all the scree and rubble you made from smashing through the walls will likely be difficult terrain anyway, even assuming you have a beeline to it when you emerge (and that, again, he didn't hear you coming somehow.)
You do. After breaching, you have a move action, then a boost next turn to make more movement, then double for the charge.

[Psyren]

The warblade stuff is OT so I'm moving it to spoilers.

@Snowbluff:

For posterity, what is the listen for hearing that through a solid wall at 150 ft (otherwise the dragon would be able to just blindsense)?

+1 per 10 ft. and +15 to hear through stone, so +30 total - with -10 because you're attacking (using maneuvers), and decreasing further the closer you get. Your chances of sneaking up are minimal.



You do. After breaching, you have a move action, then a boost next turn to make more movement, then double for the charge.

See above - you're unlikely to have a charge line by the time you emerge since it hears you coming and can move, plus the debris, any traps in the room etc.

[the OOD]

for a low level (3ish) duskblade, is truestrike helpful?
actually, what spells should a low level duskblade use? (preferably in core)

also: this thread should be split, one for duskblade/warmage discussion, another for psyren and snowbluff to argue about punching their way to a dragon.:smallcool:

[ArcturusV]

Person Man:

That image never had that feeling for me at all. Light armor, a shield, a thrown weapon, and a projectile spell all called out "Skirmisher" to me rather than "Melee". Perhaps it's just me but seeing that image you got the idea of someone who could be near a battle, casting in support of allies, harassing enemies with spells to the face. And isn't gonna get instagibbed the moment some kobold throws a rock at him but can live to scurry away and throw a spell or his spear if it comes down to it.

[Raendyn]

I know I am not contributing to the thread, but when I read those,

It's not "infiltrating" if the whole castle hears you come in, so no.

Even by the RAWtarded standards that this ability generally conforms to, none of those conditions...

I was laughing like an evil witch in kid stories, while hurting my hands claping slowly but loudly, and I should mention a few tears.....

Dude, I absolutely love you!:smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

The warblade stuff is OT so I'm moving it to spoilers. XD yeah.

@Snowbluff:



+1 per 10 ft. and +15 to hear through stone, so +30 total - with -10 because you're attacking (using maneuvers), and decreasing further the closer you get. Your chances of sneaking up are minimal.

A 20, then. Yeah, a dragon is probably going to hear this. They have 3+HD listen usually.


See above - you're unlikely to have a charge line by the time you emerge since it hears you coming and can move, plus the debris, any traps in the room etc.Well, it would have a have a hard time moving far enough away and keeping away. The warblade has:
A move Action.
Then a movement maneuver (usually a debris defying Sudden Leap).
And THEN they charge.

The point of going through the wall would be to avoid traps in the first place. If the dragon uses traps where his valuable treasure is, I think just walking through the front door would get more done. Sneaking would be rather useless if that were the case, as well.


for a low level (3ish) duskblade, is truestrike helpful?
actually, what spells should a low level duskblade use? (preferably in core)
Shocking Grasp is a pretty big deal. True Strike is a good spell, but the action use isn't too kind. Obscuring Mist is good and so is Color Spray.


also: this thread should be split, one for duskblade/warmage discussion, another for psyren and snowbluff to argue about punching their way to a dragon.:smallcool: :smalltongue: