ToB question insightful strike critical hit

[Keko]

Do you think is possible to get a critical hit with the Insightful Strike (and Greater) meneuver?

Is there any official FAQ/errata about it?

[Dusk Eclipse]

The Swordsage class feature? Sure, it just adds your wis bonus to damage so if you crit you multiply it normally.

On the other hand I'm pretty sure there is a sidebar or something that stats than extra damage from maneuvers is not multiplied by critical hits, but since (Greater) Insightful strike changes your damage, so I guess one could argue it isn't extra damage and should be able to crit.

[mattie_p]

I think he is asking about the diamond mind maneuver(s), that replace your damage with a concentration check.


If this attack hits, you do not deal normal damage. Instead, you make a Concentration check and deal damage equal to the check result. Your Strength modifier, your weapon’s magical properties (if any), and any other extra damage you normally deal do not modify this check (including extra damage from class abilities, feats, or spells).

Since a critical is not mentioned, this is the question. I'd say yes, as a critical is not extra damage normally dealt. Won't hurt much (well, except the target).

Never mind. Dusk Eclipse has the right of it, found on the top of page 43.

Except, that says the extra damage from a maneuver. This is completely replacing your damage. If you multiply it, it won't break the game.

[Keko]

I intended the level 3 and level 6 Diamond Mind maneuvers not the swordsage class feature :smallamused:
And in case of critical on Grater Insightful strike it would be 4xconc not just 3 as it isn't a stacking multiplier right?

Thanks :smallsmile:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well skill checks can get ridiculous so yes it is a lot of damage, the main problem I guess is how do you multiply Greater Insightful strike, is x3 or x4?

[peacenlove]

Do you think is possible to get a critical hit with the Insightful Strike (and Greater) meneuver?

Is there any official FAQ/errata about it?

No errata

You study your opponent and spot a weak point in her armor. With a quick, decisive strike, you take advantage of this weakness with a devastating attack. Your mind rather than your physical power allows you to deal grievous injuries to your foes. When you attack, your training and mental focus allow you to score a telling blow. As part of this maneuver, make a melee attack. If this attack hits, you do not deal normal damage. Instead, you make a Concentration check and deal damage equal to the check result. Your Strength modifier, your weapon’s magical properties (if any), and any other extra damage you normally deal do not modify this check (including extra damage from class abilities, feats, or spells).

Attacks are eligible for critical hits.
Concentration checks are 1d20 + modifiers. This maneuver treats the check as a static number (not extra dice)


A critical hit multiplies the character’s damage. Unless otherwise specified, the multiplier is x2. (It is possible for some weapons to have higher multipliers, doing more damage on a critical hit.) Some weapons have expanded threat ranges, making a critical hit more likely. However, even with these weapons, only a 20 is an automatic hit. The Critical column on the weapon description pages indicate the threat range for each weapon on the tables.

Bonus damage represented as extra dice is not multiplied when a character scores a critical hit.

Unknown but I would rule that all the damage is multiplied.

EDIT: Ninja'ed
Also


Well skill checks can get ridiculous so yes it is a lot of damage, the main problem I guess is how do you multiply Greater Insightful strike, is x3 or x4?

x3 if the base critical multiplier was x2. All multiplications in DnD are additive IIRC.



On the other hand I'm pretty sure there is a sidebar or something that stats than extra damage from maneuvers is not multiplied by critical hits, but since (Greater) Insightful strike changes your damage, so I guess one could argue it isn't extra damage and should be able to crit.

Most maneuvers add extra dice of damage so that ruling, if it exists, is unnecessary.

[Waddacku]

I believe you could make an argument against it, as it does replace your normal damage.

[Keko]

I think that this maneuver is intended to be
-use [skill check] instead of [weapon base damage+str+magic+feat+other]

a critical hit is critical multiplier x [weapon base damage+str+magic+feat+other]
so it would be critical multiplier x [skill check]

[peacenlove]

I believe you could make an argument against it, as it does replace your normal damage.

Thing is it is a melee attack and unless otherwise stated, is eligible for a critical hit. What that means for this maneuver, talk to your DM, but since there is a general rule for attacks and not a specific one for this maneuver, I would incline letting this attack crit.

[Darrin]

The Swordsage class feature? Sure, it just adds your wis bonus to damage so if you crit you multiply it normally.


He means the Diamond Mind maneuvers, not the class feature.



On the other hand I'm pretty sure there is a sidebar or something that stats than extra damage from maneuvers is not multiplied by critical hits, but since (Greater) Insightful strike changes your damage, so I guess one could argue it isn't extra damage and should be able to crit.

"Extra damage" in the context of critical hits always means "extra dice". That is, the +2d6 from Mountain Hammer counts as "extra damage" for the purposes of critical hits but the +1/IL damage from Leading the Charge does not, that's a modifier that gets multiplied.

There's two schools of thought on how to handle a critical on Insightful Strike:

A) The result of your Concentration check replaces all of the damage you would normally do, including additional damage from a confirmed crit. You may still roll to confirm the crit to trigger various feats/effects (such as Quell the Profane or a Vorpal weapon) and apply those that do things other than damage, but if you don't have any such abilities, then there's no point to confirming a crit.

B) The result of the Concentration check is multiplied by the appropriate crit multiplier.

I believe the ToB Errata project (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=335.0) on minmax went with option B.

[Firechanter]

I don't always go 'd'accord with the MMB ToB errata, but in this case I'd do it the same way. I.e. GIS stacks multipliers as usual.

[Feint's End]

I think that this maneuver is intended to be
-use [skill check] instead of [weapon base damage+str+magic+feat+other]

a critical hit is critical multiplier x [weapon base damage+str+magic+feat+other]
so it would be critical multiplier x [skill check]

This .... that's the way it works.