Questions regarding TWF

[Stille_Nacht]

I know that as a general rule, TWF is a feat intensive, lower attack bonus, lower damage version of THF.

However, i'd like to know if there are classes that benefit more from TWF regardless.
-would a rogue be better served with TWF for sneak attacks despite being pretty feat starved?
-apparently an unarmed factotum is the ?best unarmed build. Is this actually a semi-optimum playstyle, or is unarmed just a weaker way to play the class that happens to fit it best.

Are these cases reasonably common? If not, how might i go about buffing TWF in a reasonable way?
Could i add elemental effects to the majority of weapons to give it an extra edge in damage?
Should i just start combining TWF feats?

[FullStop]

With the caveat that I'm both not a DM and not an experienced homebrewer, I'd eyeball the solution being to make Two-Weapon Fighting Specialization a single feat that grants a number of offhand attacks equal to your number of mainhand attacks, using the same routine(much like perfect TWF, except you can first take the feat when you'd only get a single attack out of it, it just scales with your normal iteratives). I'd probably drop the attack penalty on the mainhand if you have the feat, but leave the offhand penalty of -2(-4 if you're using not-a-light-weapon) and only getting half your strength bonus to attack and damage for the offhand.

Then I'd bring back Ambidexterity, which would drop the offhand penalties and let you use your full strength bonus for your offhand attacks.

Prerequisites for those two would require some tuning, I think, but not be super-ridiculous with the Dex requirement (especially considering comparative power to power attack, which requires just 13 strength to grab and gets better the more strength you have).

[Greenish]

TWF is pretty common for rogues (who usually go for high Dex anyway). It's not that bad, though you'll be a bit squishy for trading full attacks, so hopefully you have someone else to distract the monsters (crusaders are excellent).

As for unarmed factotum, what? I mean, you could conceivably do it, and make it work, since factotum is nothing but flexible, but I don't see any point in it, as factotum class features offer no special synergy for unarmed. Maybe you're thinking of unarmed swordsages?


Adding elemental damage to weapons is a very inefficient and expensive way to boost damage in general, and TWF will already be paying through the nose for magic weapons.

TWF feats tend to suck. TWF and maybe Imp. TWF are all you need or want (with the latter preferably from Gloves of Balanced Hand). Maybe High Sword Low Axe if you're swimming in bonus feats for some unknown reason.

[Edit]: Oh, and Double Hit is decent for AoO.

[Segev]

If you're the DM, it would not be an unreasonable house rule to have TWF automatically grant the benefits of Improved and Greater TWF as you gain BAB.


Leaving house rules aside, however...

A rogue is one of those who makes TWF somewhat worthwhile, but you have to be able to get in and full attack to take advantage of it. I understand something called Travel Devotion can help with that. Similarly, Hidden Talent for the psionic power "Dimension Hop" out of C.Psi is useful for one or two "pounces" per day. Moreover, a 1000 gp capacitor can provide an additional use per capacitor you buy.

When going for TWF, you are best served by things that increase your character-based, rather than item-based, damage-per-strike. Buying magic for your weapons helps, of course, but is an area you're paying twice for what two-handed-weapon wielders get. (Of course, you can just buy one magic weapon and use some less expensive off-hand weapon; since the magic perks aren't multiplied by two-handed style, you still are adding your character-based damage a second time with the off-hand weapon, even if you're getting the on-hand weapon's magic boosts only once. The THW guy is only getting it once, too. ...in fact, buying two +2-equivalent weapons is 16,000 gp; a single +3 weapon is 18,000 gp. And two +2-equivalent weapons do 2d6+2 bonus damage due to their enchantment, while a +3-equivalent one does 2d6+1. So...hrm.)

[Darrin]

However, i'd like to know if there are classes that benefit more from TWF regardless.


Anything with precision damage or some sort of extra damage: Rogues, Rangers, Scouts, and various other classes/PrCs that get sneak attack/sudden strike/skirmish damage.



-would a rogue be better served with TWF for sneak attacks despite being pretty feat starved?


In Core, rogues can make decent TWF strikers, but they are fragile: you do better as an opportunist rather than a frontline meatbag. Outside of Core, there are a variety of ways to make yourself sturdier or reduce the risks of using TWF/sneak attack that may or may not involve rogue levels.



-apparently an unarmed factotum is the ?best unarmed build. Is this actually a semi-optimum playstyle, or is unarmed just a weaker way to play the class that happens to fit it best.


I don't have much personal experience with Factotums. Never really heard that they are exceptionally good at unarmed, but if you set the bar at Monk, then yeah... pretty much every base class can outperform the Monk at unarmed combat.



Are these cases reasonably common? If not, how might i go about buffing TWF in a reasonable way?


TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585#post15034585).



Could i add elemental effects to the majority of weapons to give it an extra edge in damage?


Yes. Start with the Shock, Psychokinetic, or Screaming to start with. Add a Lesser Crystal of Acid Assault (3000 GP, MIC) and wand chambers (100 GP, Dungeonscape) with a wand of blades of fire (Spell Compendium) and instant of power (Forge of War). Add Gloves of the Uldra Savant (3100 GP, MIC) for Frost. If you can afford it, add Bracers of Lightning (11000 GP, MIC) for Shock as a swift action.

[Beleron]

Tome of Battle has some good options for TWFers, especially Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand. A swordsage dip really helps out rogue builds.

[SciChronic]

I know that as a general rule, TWF is a feat intensive, lower attack bonus, lower damage version of THF.

However, i'd like to know if there are classes that benefit more from TWF regardless.
-would a rogue be better served with TWF for sneak attacks despite being pretty feat starved?
-apparently an unarmed factotum is the ?best unarmed build. Is this actually a semi-optimum playstyle, or is unarmed just a weaker way to play the class that happens to fit it best.

Are these cases reasonably common? If not, how might i go about buffing TWF in a reasonable way?
Could i add elemental effects to the majority of weapons to give it an extra edge in damage?
Should i just start combining TWF feats?
as other have said, rogues are decent TWF users, the issue being that they are glass and need ways to keep out of arm's reach while still getting full attacks. A reliable way to flank an enemy is also needed, Island of Blades Stance comes to mind.

Unarmed Factotum is something i haven't heard of, perhaps you're thinking unarmed swordsage? the most common weapon to use i've seen for Factotums is the Gnomish Quickblade when paired with Iaijutsu Focus.

Elemental damage is a bad way to increase damage tbh. it'd probably be best to go for either a crit-fisher or tripper.

as for buffing TWF, combining all the TWF feats together whould probably be the best thing you could do. That and allow one attack from each weapon as standard actions.

[FullStop]

...That and allow one attack from each weapon as standard actions.

Wait, that's not already a thing? I could have sworn they specifically call that out as a thing you can do in the Combat chapter(though oddly, not in the feat description).

[Yuki Akuma]

Wait, that's not already a thing? I could have sworn they specifically call that out as a thing you can do in the Combat chapter(though oddly, not in the feat description).

That is a thing, but not in core and not without taking another feat.

[Greenish]

Wait, that's not already a thing? I could have sworn they specifically call that out as a thing you can do in the Combat chapter(though oddly, not in the feat description).Oh, we wish. There's a feat in C.Adv that requires Imp. TWF, that allows you to attack with both weapons as a standard action, at increased penalties. There's also a Tiger Claw maneuver for that.

[FullStop]

That is a thing, but not in core and not without taking another feat.

Oh, we wish. There's a feat in C.Adv that requires Imp. TWF, that allows you to attack with both weapons as a standard action, at increased penalties. There's also a Tiger Claw maneuver for that.
You have GOT to be kidding. Wizards...Wizards, please.

If only it was Mundanes of the Coast.

[Greenish]

…Yeah. I wonder whether they just failed to realize the weak points of TWF, or whether it was an intentional "cool points penalty".

[FullStop]

…Yeah. I wonder whether they just failed to realize the weak points of TWF, or whether it was an intentional "cool points penalty".
That seems to be an inconsistently-applied standard then, seeing as how "able to bend the fabric of reality to your will" is anti-penalized, while "can operate a weapon competently with non-dominant hand" is mostly nonviable.

[Gwendol]

Combining the rogue with swashbuckler using the daring outlaw feat offsets the low HP and medium BAB progression of the rogue somewhat.