How to shut down Flyers?

[Firechanter]

I'd like to do a little collection here, unless such a thing already exists, in which case I kindly ask for the link.

So this is about what to do against flying enemies _when you can't fly yourself_. Many players I know have an aversion against taking the whole campaign airborne after a certain level, and I'd like to know some tools to offer them.

Bonus points for methods that don't require a caster.

[Fouredged Sword]

Tanglefoot bags come on early and stay effective for most not big / not magic flyers. Launch item will give them the range to peg almost anything within practical combat range. I like to provide launch item as a magic oil that can be applied to a applicable item. 25GP for 440ft range on 1 item.

[Firechanter]

Tanglefoot bags come on early and stay effective for most not big / not magic flyers. Launch item will give them the range to peg almost anything within practical combat range.

Damn, that looked really great, but I when I checked it I had to realize it won't work. Launch Item only works on Fine items. A Tanglefoot bag weighs 4 lbs. Even 1 lb is already size category Tiny (compare Grigs or rats). So a tanglefoot is way too big to launch it that way. :/

[Segev]

Ranged attacks are obviously an option.

Grappling hooks...I am not sure if there are rules for hitting a moving target with them, but if you can get them to latch on, you can try to use them to pull yourself up or them down.

Spring Attack plus a massive jump check.

Flying creature carrying a Ring Gate through which you attack.

Size-increasers plus reach weapons will make non-ranged-attack flyers have to provoke AoOs to come in.

To chase flyers, use somebody with Track and Handle Animal to send trained flying animals to spot, and use Track to keep track of where they go. Find their landing spots. They have to land eventually (unless they're Beholders, at which point you're kind-of screwed anyway).

[sleepyphoenixx]

Draconomicon has the Earthbind spell.

[Telonius]

Any way of Entangling the flyer can make things difficult; Web is one method. Average or worse flight requires half speed to continue forward motion, so they're not going to be able to ascend until they get the Web off of them. So either they stay at the same height, or descend.

[Fouredged Sword]

For your consideration, Launch item states

Target : One Fine item in your possession, weighing up to 10 lb

Unless a tangle foot bag is specified somewhere as non-fine, it meets the requirements of the spell.

[Flickerdart]

Any way of Entangling the flyer can make things difficult; Web is one method. Average or worse flight requires half speed to continue forward motion, so they're not going to be able to ascend until they get the Web off of them. So either they stay at the same height, or descend.
Web needs to be anchored to do anything, which makes it nearly useless against flying enemies.

[Telonius]

Web needs to be anchored to do anything, which makes it nearly useless against flying enemies.

Huh, so it does. ::adds it to the list of stuff his players can no longer do::

[Fax Celestis]

Blinding (wand of blinding spittle, maybe) your opponent will make most flyers (those without perfect or good maneuverability, anyway) unable to maintain forward velocity high enough to stay airborne. Slow does the same. Confusion has a 30% chance of "do nothing but babble incoherently", which includes "maintaining forward velocity" in its "do nothing". Dazing, stunning, staggering, exhaustion, paralysis, and unconsciousness make it difficult (if not outright impossible) to maintain forward velocity or hover.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1st level: Nets are extremely useful, and nonproficienty often won't matter due to making touch attacks, don't forget Masterwork. Tanglefoot Bags are also good, have a flying familiar or animal companion swoop in with one.

Early game: Earthbind (SC, Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard 2) and Downdraft (SC, Cleric/Druid 3 huge AoE) can bring opponents out of the sky immediately, and often are still effective even if the opponent makes the save.

Mid to late game: PCs should be flying by now, otherwise the above tactics are still useful.

[NNescio]

For your consideration, Launch item states

Target : One Fine item in your possession, weighing up to 10 lb

Unless a tangle foot bag is specified somewhere as non-fine, it meets the requirements of the spell.

Also the weights given on the size chart are approximate values for creatures with the same density of most animals. It even has a footnote


5 Assumes that the creature is roughly as dense as a regular animal. A creature made of stone will weigh considerably more. A gaseous creature will weigh much less.

Ergo, fine creatures and items do not necessarily have to weigh 1/8 lb or less.

Furthermore, launch item gives thunderstones and flasks of acid as examples of launched items. Both weigh 1 lb.

As a side note, a real life shot-put is undoubtedly of size fine, and they weigh 16 lb (for men) or 8 lb (for women).

--


Huh, so it does. ::adds it to the list of stuff his players can no longer do::

Could work with a ceiling (cave flyers, for example), maybe?

[GilesTheCleric]

For your consideration, Launch item states

Target : One Fine item in your possession, weighing up to 10 lb

Unless a tangle foot bag is specified somewhere as non-fine, it meets the requirements of the spell.

If that doesn't work, you can always employ a gnome calculus (AaEG, iirc) to hurl it for you. Alternatively, there's probably a tanglefoot arrow/ballista in some splatbook or other. Hulking hurler/throw anything might be a workaround as well.

[Deophaun]

Step 1: Ready an action to attack when the flyer comes within range.
Step 2: Trip said flying enemy when it comes into range.

Flying enemy is now prone on the ground. Stab in face repeatedly.

[Slipperychicken]

If you're a big strong bruiser-type, then an A&EG Harpoon might be for you. On each hit, gives Reflex DC 10+damage or it gets stuck inside the target. If it gets stuck, then you can keep the target within 30ft with an opposed Strength check.

[Flickerdart]

Step 1: Ready an action to attack when the flyer comes within range.
Step 2: Trip said flying enemy when it comes into range.

Flying enemy is now prone on the ground. Stab in face repeatedly.
The entire point of flying is not to come into range, so this is not a useful strategy.

[Icewraith]

Won't wind wall stop anything that can't hover and cause it to fall?

[Allanimal]

Tanglefoot bags come on early and stay effective for most not big / not magic flyers. Launch item will give them the range to peg almost anything within practical combat range. I like to provide launch item as a magic oil that can be applied to a applicable item. 25GP for 440ft range on 1 item.

if you can't use launch item, grab A rod of viscid globs or 4 (MIC p. 176).
shoots tanglefoot bag equivalent globs up to 100 feet 3 times/day.

[Darrin]

Downdraft (Spell Compendium) would be the go-to for clerics/druids. Even if your target makes the Ref save, they drop 50'. Make sure your target is under 50', and they will be eating a dirt sandwich.

Ready an action to throw a net, lasso, or harpoon. Both have a trailing rope that can restrict movement, prevent flying away, and possibly force a crash. If you don't fancy an opposed Str check, tie the trailing rope to the ground. If entangling or the trailing rope isn't doing the trick, try adding Blister Oil + Sovereign Glue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9742205&postcount=2).

In A&EG, there's also the Springwall (60 GP) that can be thrown to produce a 10' x 10' wall of wire mesh. Ref save DC 15 to avoid an entangle effect. If a flyer is coming at you close to the ground, you could try throwing that in front of them.

Ready an action for a Feather Token: Tree (400 GP, DMG). 60' high with a 40' top diameter. Make sure your target is moving towards you or directly overhead, then proudly announce that it's "Arbor Day".

Bead of Force (3000 GP, DMG). Kind of expensive for a one-shot and the Ref save DC 16 is easy to beat, but if it works, the target will most likely be dead or out of combat for 10 minutes.

Ring of Forcewall (5100 GP, MIC). Throw up a 10' x 10' wall of force anywhere within 30'.

[Eldan]

A harpoon and a long rope should technically work, though I forget which book they were in.

Or to be a bit silly: jump check/flight/being thrown and a grapple check. Grappled creatures can't move, so grappled flying creatures crash if their maneuverability is low.

[Fax Celestis]

Ready an action for a Feather Token: Tree (400 GP, DMG). 60' high with a 40' top diameter. Make sure your target is moving towards you or directly overhead, then proudly announce that it's "Arbor Day".

http://i.imgur.com/jb21WJO.jpg

[Eldan]

The Feather Token: Tree is my favourite item of all times. There's really nothing out there that has so many hilarous applications.

Imprisoned? Not anymore! THere's a tree through the roof now. Need to block a door? Oh, you mean the door behind that tree? Freezing to death in the icy tundra? Hey look, a tree for firewood. Need a ship? How about a hollowed out tree as a boat? Bridge? Bring the axes. Dinosaur attack? Climb your own personal tree!

[Firechanter]

For your consideration, Launch item states

Target : One Fine item in your possession, weighing up to 10 lb

Unless a tangle foot bag is specified somewhere as non-fine, it meets the requirements of the spell.

Ouh, I totally missed that. Silly me, thanks for the heads-up. And here I was, skimming through the SRD looking for examples of the dividing line between Tiny and Fine.

Good job so far, everyone!

What I'm missing is something like a feat or trick for archers that forces flyers they've hit to land.

[Eldan]

Just wondering: has it ever been defined whta happens to a tripped flier?

[Fax Celestis]

Just wondering: has it ever been defined whta happens to a tripped flier?

They stall.


Tripping Flyers: A creature flying with wings can be tripped. If the attempt succeeds, the creature stalls and falls 150 feet. See Rules of the Game: All About Movement for details (and a few unofficial additional rules about tripping flying creatures).

Creatures that fly without wings (and any creature with perfect maneuverability) can't be tripped while flying. If the creature is still in the air after stalling, it must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover and resume flying. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it lands prone and takes falling damage.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060321a

[Harrow]

Is there any problem that can't be solved with feather tokens? If there was a prestige class that gave daily uses of feather token abilities, I would take all of the levels of that class and then advance it further with Legacy Champion.

Back on topic, I don't think anyone has mentioned this one weird trick : hit point damage.

Seriously, if something can fly, hit it with a bow until it dies. There are plenty of ranged builds that do great damage at ridiculous ranges, and they do much better against the standard flying opponent than they do in most dungeons.

Stunshot Slings and boomerangs with the Boomerang Daze feat are also pretty effective.

[Venger]

A harpoon and a long rope should technically work, though I forget which book they were in.

Or to be a bit silly: jump check/flight/being thrown and a grapple check. Grappled creatures can't move, so grappled flying creatures crash if their maneuverability is low.

Harpoons come with a rope attached to them already. They're in stormwrack.

related to grappling, don't forget that that you can't fly if you are carrying more than a medium load. thus damaging or otherwise lowering a flying enemy's str (assuming they fly with wings like a chump) can render them incapable of generating enough lift to support their own weight or the weight of you grabbing onto them (enemies with wings often have poor str scores)

[Shining Wrath]

Aside from what's been mentioned so far:

Anything that creates wind. Summoned air elementals will wreak havoc with a flier who is riding something else.

The Decanter of Endless Water in "geyser" mode can produce quite an effect if someone flies into the geyser. Wet feathers don't work.

Blind them via spells. Watch as they fly into walls / trees. Fog, clouds, darkness, ....

Retreat to somewhere with a low ceiling.

[Deophaun]

The entire point of flying is not to come into range, so this is not a useful strategy.
Ah, so that's why there are no flying creatures with melee attacks in the entire game.

[Firechanter]

Alternatively, there's probably a tanglefoot arrow/ballista in some splatbook or other.

Yeah, that would be pretty cool. However, I don't remember if I ever saw such a thing.

Might as well design a "Birdfall Arrow" for those occasions... should be rather straightforward, on the basis of Earthbind.

[JaronK]

Ah, so that's why there are no flying creatures with melee attacks in the entire game.

Just because they have melee attacks doesn't mean they're stupid enough to use them when their enemy can't hit them from range and they have breath weapons, sp abilities, and other ranged attacks. Wizards have melee attacks too, after all. That doesn't mean they always charge in.

JaronK

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, that would be pretty cool. However, I don't remember if I ever saw such a thing.

Might as well design a "Birdfall Arrow" for those occasions... should be rather straightforward, on the basis of Earthbind.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-tanglefoot

From Elves of Golarion. 20gp/shot, so pretty much not worth it at low levels when the save matters. I guess you could figure out some way to pump the DC, but at that point, you're probably better getting some spell-storing arrows +1 and putting hold monster in them.

[Deophaun]

Just because they have melee attacks doesn't mean they're stupid enough to use them when their enemy can't hit them from range and they have breath weapons, sp abilities, and other ranged attacks. Wizards have melee attacks too, after all. That doesn't mean they always charge in.

JaronK
Which is why wyverns carry crossbows.

[Killer Angel]

Which is why wyverns carry crossbows.

You need an active tactic. If you stand and prepare an action, the wyvern could attack someone else: you don't know.
So, unless everyone in the group is a tripper with a readied action, you could have your fighter standing and waiting for something that won't happen, while the wyvern attacks the ranger with a flyby attack with free grapple included.

To ready an action can be effective, but its use is limited and situational, and should be used only if the rest fails; you cannot base your tactics on it.

[Deophaun]

To ready an action can be effective, but its use is limited and situational, and should be used only if the rest fails; you cannot base your tactics on it.
I'm sorry. I should have just stated one of the dozens of ways a wizard could deal with fliers, or opine on a tangle foot bag. Including a tactic that may be effective if a party is unprepared for an encounter with a mundane flier was obviously not what the OP wanted, as his request for something that was "universally effective" makes clear.

[Flickerdart]

I'm sorry. I should have just stated one of the dozens of ways a wizard could deal with fliers, or opine on a tangle foot bag. Including a tactic that may be effective if a party is unprepared for an encounter with a mundane flier was obviously not what the OP wanted, as his request for something that was "universally effective" makes clear.
"Stand there and hope for the enemy to be stupid" is not a tactic.

[HunterOfJello]

Rod of Viscid Globs to shoot a tanglefoot bag up to 100 ft. (MiC)

Throw nets.

Use a harpoon and a high strength check to pull the creature down. (Stormwrack)

Go into an area where someone can't fly high around you.

Bracers of Entangling Blast along with Magic Missile. This will auto-hit an enemy and entangle them for 1d3 rounds. They can be used 3/day. This method gets even better over time since at CL 9 you'll be able to entangle five flying enemies at once with a 1st level spell. (MiC)

[Firechanter]

Cool stuff here, good show!

[MesiDoomstalker]

Entice Gift with some Anitmagic Shackles for supernatural, SLA, or spell based flight.

[Slipperychicken]

"Stand there and hope for the enemy to be stupid" is not a tactic.

This belongs in the "Things I May No Longer Do While Playing" thread.

[Chalkarts]

In order to shut down flyers, befriend a weather witch.

[Harrow]

Earthglide, if you can get it. As a matter of fact, there's very little earthglide doesn't shut down.

Tower Shields can be used as Total Cover. If you have an Adamantine or Riverine one it's a pretty good defense against any opponent who tries to keep their distance, which is pretty much the whole point of flight.

Some from of incorporeality or etherealness would also work to hide in things.

[Snowbluff]

Truenamers have an Utterance that brings them down. No save.